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Moral Viewpoints Matter

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Those of us who argue that morality is grounded in a transcendent, objective standard often use extreme cases to demonstrate our point. We argue, for example, that in no conceivable universe would torturing an infant for personal pleasure be considered anything other than an unmitigated evil. Since there is at least one self-evidently moral truth that transcends all places, times, circumstances and contexts, the objectivity of morality is demonstrated.

The other day frequent commenter Learned Hand stated that “[Subjectiviests are] very much like [objectivists], in that we have moral beliefs that are as powerful for us as they are for you.”

The objectivist response to LH is two-fold. On the one hand, we say that it is entirely obvious and unsurprising that subjectivists feel powerfully about their moral beliefs. After all, subjectivists’ moral beliefs are grounded in the objective reality of a transcendent moral standard just like everyone else’s (even though subjectivists deny that this is so). Far from asserting that subjectivists are amoral monsters, objectivists absolutely insist that any given subjectivist can be as sensitive (or even perhaps in some instances more sensitive) to the demands of the objective moral law as an objectivists. Subjectivists, like everyone else, know that (and always behave as if) torturing an infant for personal pleasure is objectively wrong. Which, of course, is why the rest of LH’s rant in the linked comment is not only mean spirited, it is also blithering nonsense.

On the other hand, objectivists also argue that the subjectivist argument that they feel their morality just as powerfully as objectivists is patently false given their own premises. One group of people believe that morals are based on an objective, transcendent moral standard binding on all people at all times; another group of people take Will Provine seriously when he says no ultimate foundation for ethics exists. Certainly the responses of individuals within the group will vary. But can there be any doubt that people who believe morality is based on something real will, at the margin, feel more strongly about their moral commitments than people who believe their moral commitments are, ultimately, based on nothing at all? Can you imagine a moral objectivist insisting that we should not “judge” Aztec human sacrifice by our current cultural standards, as I once saw a curator of a museum here in Denver do?

Of course, the key to this analysis is the phrase “at the margin.” All decisions are made at the margin, and that is why when it comes down to the actual practical differences in the behavior of subjectivists and objectivists, examples from the poles are unhelpful, because the behavior of both groups will be practically identical.  But is there really a difference in behavior at the margin? As I argued above, simple logic dictates that we should expect a difference in behavior at the margin. But do we have any concrete examples? I believe we do. It is called American jurisprudence.

As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of law began with the publication in 1897 of The Path of the Law by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. In this groundbreaking article Holmes almost singlehandedly founded the school of “legal realism,” which gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States. “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal nihilism,” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judge’s rulings. Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality? Because, as Phillip Johnson has explained, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism,” and Holmes’ great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of naturalism. Truly Holmes’ ideas could be called “jurisprudential naturalism.” Thus began the modern era of what has come to be known as “judicial activism.”

What does all of this have to do with “morality at the margin”? The answer lies in the structure and history of the American Constitution. In the Federalist 79 Hamilton argued that judges would be restrained from judicial activism by their fear of impeachment:

The precautions for their responsibility are comprised in the article respecting impeachments. They [federal judges] are liable to be impeached for malconduct by the House of Representatives, and tried by the Senate; and, if convicted, may be dismissed from office, and disqualified for holding any other.

For structural reasons (impeach requires a supermajority in the Senate), political reasons (super majorities necessary for impeachment are impossible if even a significant minority of the Senate agrees with the results of the judicial activism), and historical reasons (Jefferson’s failed use of the impeachment process to check the judiciary weighed very heavily against subsequent attempts), Hamilton turned out to be wrong.

If judges cannot be checked effectively by fear of impeachment when they abuse their office, what does check their power? Just this: Judges take an oath of office to uphold the constitution, and the only practical check on their power is individual judge’s moral commitment to that oath. And it is here that the difference between subjectivist and objectivist commitments to morality have plain effects at the margin.

Every time a judge makes a ruling (especially in the area of constitutional law), there is a temptation. Suppose a judge has a powerfully felt commitment to a particular policy (it does not matter what the policy preference is). Suppose further that the text, structure and history of the constitution provides no warrant for elevating that policy preference to the status of constitutional imperative. If there is no effective political check on his power, what is to stop the judge from nevertheless falsely ruling that the constitution does indeed elevate his policy preference to constitutional imperative? Again, nothing but his moral commitment to his oath. This is especially true for Supreme Court judges whose rulings are not subject to further review.

Which group of judges has the stronger moral commitment?  Based on a host of data, it is certainly the case that political liberals are far more likely to be areligious. Further, areligious people are far more likely than religious people to be moral subjectivists. Therefore, we can conclude that liberal judges are more likely to be moral subjectivists. Is it any wonder then that the vast majority of cases of judicial activism come down on the side most amenable to political liberals? Indeed, while I will be the first to admit that there have been a few rare cases of conservative activism, judicial activism is overwhelming seen as a phenomenon of the left. Conservative judges view their project as essentially a moral project. Liberal judges see their project as, in Justice White’s famous phrase, the raw exercise of power. It cannot be reasonably disputed that liberal judges (whom we can conclude have a largely subjectivist moral viewpoint) do not have as strong a moral commitment to their oath. And that, Learned Hand, is why it matters.

Comments
SB
The last time I provided a reference for the commonly accepted definition of a term, a dictionary no less, you rejected it and claimed that such references cannot settle disputes over meaning. You have always made it clear that words mean whatever you want them to mean whenever you want them to mean it.
This is not true - but I have to go and run a workshop.Mark Frank
January 21, 2015
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WJM #45 This definition of subjectivism is the standard one (I thought maybe you had something different up your sleeve). My point in #40 still holds. There is a difference between metaethical propositions about the nature of ethics and ethical propositions about rights and duties etc. The failure to make this distinction underlies some of the confusion that is apparent every day on this forum. But anyway it is a nonsense to talk of the right to have different moral beliefs. Rights are things that can be given, protected or refused. They apply to things people may or may not do - not what they think or believe.Mark Frank
January 21, 2015
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Mark Frank
WJM You seem to be very confident about subjectivism says. Perhaps you could state clearly what you mean by it or give a reference.
What good would that do? The last time I provided a reference for the commonly accepted definition of a term, a dictionary no less, you rejected it and claimed that such references cannot settle disputes over meaning. You have always made it clear that words mean whatever you want them to mean whenever you want them to mean it. That is why I will dialogue with you only on matters of fact. Anytime the subject matter turns to a rational interpretation of facts, I will bow out.StephenB
January 21, 2015
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In the interests of clarity, MF: There is a difference between intellectually or academically describing theories about what morality "is", and actually being able to live as if one of those theories is true. I do not make a case for "what morality is", but rather I make arguments that address "Can we actually live as if moral theory X is true?" I suggest most people involved in this discussion can only live as if moral objectivism is true; only sociopaths can live as if moral subjectivism is true. I don't think anyone can live as if moral relativism is true.William J Murray
January 21, 2015
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Moral relativism means that whether or not a moral statement is true is relative to some individual, group, cultural or even objective model of morality. There is such a thing as an objective relativist. Moral subjectivism means that whether or not a moral statement is true depends entirely upon the subjective nature of the individual's views who is making the statement - it is a true statement of their personal moral view and not held as true beyond that. Thus, moral relativism generally does not give any individual a "right" to their own moral views (except for subjective relativism), while moral subjectivism does exactly that. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-anti-realism/moral-subjectivism-versus-relativism.html As I argued in the other thread, though, moral relativism necessarily, logically boils down to moral subjectivism in terms of how one adopts moral rules and decides how to behave; a so-called moral relativist will abandon the group or cultural morals, and even views held as objective in their source, if they feel strongly enough about their disagreement. Logically, for the relativist, this makes personal feeling their actual de facto moral authority, making them a moral subjectivist, where they have any moral right they feel they have because, they feel like it, and moral statements are true because they feel like they are. Unless, of course, one will commit to some moral code unconditionally - even when that moral code conflicts with very strong feelings otherwise. Then one can be a true (logically consistent) moral relativist.William J Murray
January 21, 2015
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Mark Frank
Having said that it is hard to know what it means to give (or refuse) someone the right to have their own moral feelings. You can’t pass a law dictating what people shall believe to be right or wrong! What you can do is disagree very strongly with someone else’s moral feelings, try to persuade them differently (even though there is no ultimate proof they are wrong – you can still muster strong arguments), and if their beliefs are particularly unacceptable to you – try to stop those feelings turning into action.
Subjectivists are more clever than that. They try to pass laws that forbid the public expression of those beliefs, which amounts to the same thing. If you can't express an idea or try to persuade others to accept it, you might as well not believe it. Canada's hate speech laws, for example, forbid anyone from criticizing homosexual behavior on the grounds that doing so is a personal attack and endangers the object of criticism. Thus, the Christian moral perspective, which condemns the sin, but not the sinner, may not be expressed in public. While the United States has not yet arrived to that point full scale, its university classrooms, who are dominated by subjectivists, operate by the same principle, especially at the graduate level. I know. I've been there.StephenB
January 21, 2015
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WJM You seem to be very confident about subjectivism says. Perhaps you could state clearly what you mean by it or give a reference.Mark Frank
January 21, 2015
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MF said:
Subjectivism does not give us all the right to our own moral feelings.
Actually, that's exactly what moral subjectivism does.You're confusing moral subjectivism with moral relativism.
What you can do is disagree very strongly with someone else’s moral feelings, try to persuade them differently (even though there is no ultimate proof they are wrong – you can still muster strong arguments),
With no objective standard, all such arguments are necessarily based on rhetoric and/or emotional pleading. I dont consider any such argument to be "strong".
and if their beliefs are particularly unacceptable to you – try to stop those feelings turning into action.
Acting on feelings without a presumed objective basis is the very definition of irrational behavior.William J Murray
January 21, 2015
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rvb8
Also, I have a question for all the moral Christians who oppose abortion. How many children have you adopted? I assume you have a decent middle class income. So, why aren’t you out there madly adopting all of these potential abortees? You say it is immoral, well go out there and actively do something. Your call could be, ‘Adopt an Abortee and make Jesus Smile.’ Put your morality where your mouth is; do something, or just shut up!
I realize that facts mean nothing to you, but here we go. For every adoption, there are 36 couples lined up with open arms. In raw numbers, that means there are 4.5 million couples available and willing to address the problem of 1.2 million babies that are slaughtered in the womb. Even if every one of them had been adopted, there would still be 3.3 million more couples with no babies to receive. One problem, rvb8, is that your friends at Planned Parenthood would rather kill the baby than inform the mother about other options. Do you have any more uniformed questions?StephenB
January 21, 2015
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#38 Cross
What happened to the moral subjectivist that give us all the right to our own moral feelings and disagree with others?
Oh Dear - one more time. Subjectivism does not give us all the right to our own moral feelings. Giving a right is a moral decision which is made by an individual based on their moral beliefs. All subjectivism says is that as a matter of fact people differ in their moral beliefs and there is no ultimate way of proving one set of beliefs objectively correct. This a meta-ethics statement about how ethics works - not an ethical statement about rights. Having said that it is hard to know what it means to give (or refuse) someone the right to have their own moral feelings. You can't pass a law dictating what people shall believe to be right or wrong! What you can do is disagree very strongly with someone else's moral feelings, try to persuade them differently (even though there is no ultimate proof they are wrong - you can still muster strong arguments), and if their beliefs are particularly unacceptable to you - try to stop those feelings turning into action.Mark Frank
January 21, 2015
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rvb8
When dealing with people like StephenB you should note that they are far from confident, that is these are people with incredibly shaky moral values. Mocking people who are obviously deeply aware of a particular social problem, and giving the most childish of answers, “don’t do bad things”, is their flippant way to dismiss their opponents and the problem.
Somehow, I sense that a rationalization for killing babies is about to appear.
I would never be so crass and patronising as to give advice to the well spoken and completely moral Alicia, but I would like to point out something.
Any argument based on the proposition or the insinuation that chastity doesn't work is manifestly stupid and deserves to be ridiculed.
Abortion is the law of the land. A woman’s right to have a free, safe, abortion is guaranteed under the constitution. (You know, the piece of paper that BA waves around when it suits his morality.)
Ah, yes, there it is. For rvb8, The Constitution "protects" the mother's right to kill her unprotected baby. What took you so long?
StephenB and his anti-diluvian thought should be banned, but his thought is thought to be complimentary and erudite; it’s not.
I think the word you are looking for is "expelled."StephenB
January 21, 2015
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rvb8 @ 36 "I would never be so crass and patronising as to give advice to the well spoken and completely moral Alicia" then "‘Adopt an Abortee and make Jesus Smile.’" crass and patronising, hypocrisy anyone. Mate, you should stop getting your view of Christians from the Simpsons, we aren't all Ned Flanders caricatures. Get out and talk to a few, you will find them a pretty ordinary mix of people (and not all middle class either). I know hundreds of Christian friends and acquaintances and don't know many that think they are morally superior, usually quite the opposite. As a group though, we tend to get upset with abortion as we see it as a modern holocaust. What happened to the moral subjectivist that give us all the right to our own moral feelings and disagree with others? I just posed an option that is overlooked, the choice to bring a baby to term and adopt out to a childless couple. Whats wrong with helping a childless couple? Could that unborn child be the next Einstein, Nelson Mandella or even an rvb8? I posed the question, "Why is it not better, to promote adoption rather than termination? Why is it not the more moral position?" Care to answer?Cross
January 21, 2015
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Learned Hand
The explicit text of the constitution is objective; to apply it to real-world cases, judges must interpret it. That interpretation is inevitably going to entail subjective analyses.
Yes, the text is objective. The Constitution represents the "how" and the Declaration of Independence represents the "why." Both are informed by the principles of natural law, which are also objective. ("The Laws of Nature and Nature's God.")
In other words, if the question is, “How many branches of government are there?”, then the answer is objectively found in the constitution.
The question is this: "What is the objective standard for determining which laws are just and which ones are not."
If the question is, “Does the EP clause prohibit separate yet equal public schooling accomodations,” or “Does the Fourth Amendment prohibit warrantless infrared scans of a domicile,” then the analysis is going to involve a lot of questions about what the constitution means that go beyond its text."
Natural rights, which are contained in the natural moral law are, by definition, objective. By recognizing them, the government is obliged to refrain from passing any law that would violate those rights. Citizens have a natural right to be treated equally under the law. Obviously, the contradictory "separate but equal" formulation violates that spirit. It is an unjust principle the breeds an unjust law, the very thing that is supposed to be avoided. That is the whole point of having a constitution steeped in objective principles: to pass just laws that hold everyone accountable, even the government. Alas, that same government can grow corrupt and ignore its own principles and pass unjust laws. However, without the standard, there is no way to know it if has become corrupt. With respect to the Fourth Amendment, you answered your own question. Warrantless and unreasonable mean warrantless and unreasonable. A thing can only be unreasonable according to reason's objective standards, which are expressed in the natural moral law. Modern jurisprudence, which is corrupt and perverse, defines unreasonable as anything that displeases the tyrannical government or the tyrannical majority, who always impose their own subjective morality on those who are powerless to resist.StephenB
January 21, 2015
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Another edifying debate topic for a 'science' website. Occasionally people are banned here, it is a well known part of ID culture that free descent from the prevailing opinion be quashed. StephenB and his anti-diluvian thought should be banned, but his thought is thought to be complimentary and erudite; it's not. When dealing with people like StephenB you should note that they are far from confident, that is these are people with incredibly shaky moral values. Mocking people who are obviously deeply aware of a particular social problem, and giving the most childish of answers, "don't do bad things", is their flippant way to dismiss their opponents and the problem. I would never be so crass and patronising as to give advice to the well spoken and completely moral Alicia, but I would like to point out something. Abortion is the law of the land. A woman's right to have a free, safe, abortion is guaranteed under the constitution. (You know, the piece of paper that BA waves around when it suits his morality.) Also, I have a question for all the moral Christians who oppose abortion. How many children have you adopted? I assume you have a decent middle class income. So, why aren't you out there madly adopting all of these potential abortees? You say it is immoral, well go out there and actively do something. Your call could be, 'Adopt an Abortee and make Jesus Smile.' Put your morality where your mouth is; do something, or just shut up!rvb8
January 20, 2015
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Daniel @ 28 I just want to point out a common misconception about Christians. I don't in any way think as a Christian I am good and thus you are not. I don't think I am always right or do the right thing, just ask my wife and she will confirm this, and you are always wrong and always do the wrong thing. I have a number of friends who are not Christian and yet are very good people. My view is that we are all sinners in need of a savior and I chose mine (or He chose me but that's another argument). Further to this, it is entirely possible for a non christian to do the morally right thing. I am pointing out that surely it is morally better to adopt out an unwanted child than to terminate.Cross
January 20, 2015
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How many con law cases have you successfully litigated? None, I practiced complex commercial lit as a Biglaw associate. Constitutional issues rarely came up, and I can't think of any that were ever dispositive. I understand your snark though; you think that if my writing at UD reflects my practice, I could not possibly win. I don't think that your blogging demonstrates the quality of your briefs; just the quality of your thinking and character.Learned Hand
January 20, 2015
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Barry The constitution is a subjective standard? My God, man, it’s a text. The explicit text of the constitution is objective; to apply it to real-world cases, judges must interpret it. That interpretation is inevitably going to entail subjective analyses. In other words, if the question is, "How many branches of government are there?", then the answer is objectively found in the constitution. If the question is, "Does the EP clause prohibit separate yet equal public schooling accomodations," or "Does the Fourth Amendment prohibit warrantless infrared scans of a domicile," then the analysis is going to involve a lot of questions about what the constitution means that go beyond its text.Learned Hand
January 20, 2015
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Colin @ 30: The constitution is a subjective standard? My God, man, it's a text; surely you believe it has some meaning. Oh wait. Maybe you went to the same law school I went to where for three painful years over and over again they tried to pound into my head "language means nothing; it is all a power game." I resisted. You were assimilated. That's OK. Most are.
Keep practicing, eventually you’re bound to get good at it.
How many con law cases have you successfully litigated? I've won plenty. I understand your snark though; you think that if my writing at UD reflects my practice, I could not possibly win. And that's true. But I do win. I guess I'm smart enough to know that when you're down the rabbit hole, you have to play by Wonderland's rules. Here at UD though I get to shake my fist at the lunacy of it all.Barry Arrington
January 20, 2015
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SB, If you placed every person on the planet in the state of Texas, you would have a population density equal to Chicago, Illinois. So, there is no problem at all with over-population, nor is there any danger that it will ever be a problem. And then Texas would become a graveyard of billions. The perceived "danger of over-population" is not that the people won't physically fit, but the availability of resources commensurate with the population. I don't know how serious a danger it is, but your example doesn't make a cogent counter-argument.Learned Hand
January 20, 2015
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Barry, First, feel free to call me Colin. LH is fine too. You are nothing if not predictable. I’m also wise, compassionate, insightful, articulate, wholesome, funny, strong, handsome, and a fast runner. These are all objective and self-evident characteristics, except for my good looks, which are only evident upon examination of my classical profile (but are still objective). You say that judicial activism is undefinable, because there are no standards by which to define it. That’s not actually what I said at all. I said that JA is easy to define. It’s hard to define well or objectively, which is evident from the fact that there are so few rigorous definitions of it that aren’t simply elaborate ways of saying, “Harrumph! That damn judge did the wrong thing.” See, e.g., scholarship focusing on rates of overturning statutes—a very objective, but not very satisfying, definition. There is a standard. It is called the constitution. When a judge’s decision cannot be supported by the text, history and structure of the constitution he has engaged in judicial activism and violated his oath to uphold the constitution. Great—a subjective standard that depends on your interpretation of the “text, history and structure of the constitution.” In other words, “harrumph.” It’s very easy to declare that decisions that violate your understanding of the constitution are activist, but all you’re doing is defining “decisions that I don’t agree with” as activist. (BTW, thanks for admitting your relative ignorance when it comes to con law; I, on the other hand, have been practicing con law for over 20 years.) Keep practicing, eventually you’re bound to get good at it. What is the point of having a written constitution if those sworn to uphold it do not feel they are morally bound to adhere to the text? From one end to the other your comment is a shining example of a mindset steeped in modern legal jurisprudence. If I can get five of the nine votes, to hell with the constitution I swore to uphold. Might makes right. This is irrelevant to the discussion about objectivism and subjectivism; objectivists and subjectivists alike can value their oath, and both can also decide that some value is more important than their oath. But of course, it’s also possible in any particular case that the justices legitimately disagree over the application of the constitution to the present facts. And once again, no one really believes that "might makes right." Even the hypothetical justice you caricature here doesn't believe it. They might believe that "might" enables them to advance their vision of what's right, but not that might makes that vision right. You're letting your sloganeering do your reasoning for you. Try not to do that in your briefs. The issue is whether a right to SSM is guaranteed by the constitution. It is not; the constitution is completely silent on the issue of SSM. The Court determined in Loving that the Constitution protects a fundamental right to marry, at least following the collapse of religious conservatives’ social arguments against miscegenation. (Which I rather suspect were articulated as objective moral arguments.) In your twenty years of practice, you have surely read the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses. The authors and ratifiers of these clauses were inconsiderate enough (or foresighted enough) not to give explicit, detailed instructions as to how to apply this text. Many people believe that either the DP or EP clauses protect same-sex marriage. I think both work. You obviously disagree, and that’s fine. People do. It’s both silly and toxic to pretend that the good-faith and sincere arguments of people who disagree with us don’t exist, or that those people are power-mad sociopaths who are just itching to tear apart another baby for the greater glory of Satan, Darwin and Dawkins. People disagree about how to interpret the constitution, especially when applying it to social or technological questions that were not ever considered by the founders. You’re perfectly free to complain that those rascally pro-miscegenation judges are just damned activists, but you’re still lacking an objective standard with which to do so. “Disagreeing with me is objectively wrong” doesn’t cut it. But back to the OP, your argument just doesn’t hold water. There isn’t a real distinction between subjectivists and objectivists when it comes to “activism.” Both are equally capable of prizing their oath, and equally capable of subordinating it to some (perceived) greater moral project.Learned Hand
January 20, 2015
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Foot. Mouth.Upright BiPed
January 20, 2015
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Cross:
Why is it not better, to promote adoption rather than termination? Why is it not the more moral position?
If you think it's better, there are lots of children out there who need parenting by good Christians like you. How many have you adopted?Daniel King
January 20, 2015
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Alicia @ 9 Hi Alicia, I am not going to argue about abortion with you as it may well be a personal and emotionally charged issue. I just want to point out another choice that women have, that of adopting out an unwanted child. My wife and I now have 4 children, the first two adopted as we were unlikely after many years to fall pregnant. The adopted sons are much loved and a real treasure to our lives, every bit as much as the natural ones that followed. The adoptions happened 26 and 24 years ago, it is much harder if not impossible now here is Aus where 40,000 terminations are performed each year. There are thousands of childless couples that would love to adopt them. Why is it not better, to promote adoption rather than termination? Why is it not the more moral position? I can see where a mother may not be able to handle a rape or incest and it may surprise you that Jewish tradition would mostly accept abortion in this case.Cross
January 20, 2015
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Alicia
I’m too angry to exchange comments with one such as you at the moment.
Well, then, ponder this: It's not the baby's fault that it was conceived in rape. Take your wrath out on the rapist. Still, rape accounts for less than 1% of all births. If I were to abandon my principles and let you kill those few, would you promise not to kill the other 99%. Of course, you wouldn't. Also, I have a fact that might interest you. If you placed every person on the planet in the state of Texas, you would have a population density equal to Chicago, Illinois. So, there is no problem at all with over-population, nor is there any danger that it will ever be a problem. Under the circumstances, can I persuade you to let the babies live that you would have condemned to death under the false impression that they are crowding us out? Of course, I can't. Put all the pretense aside. You and Mark enthusiastically support the barbarous practice of tearing babies apart piece by piece in the name of compassion and sexual freedom.StephenB
January 20, 2015
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Barry:
If killing babies is an effective population control mechanism, why don’t you keep killing them when they are born?
AR:
It used to happen, Barry. A century ago, infant mortality kept human population in check.
Palm smacks forehead. If you don't know (or acknowledge) the difference between killing a baby and the death of a baby by natural causes, you have shown yourself to be unserious. You tried to dodge the question and wound up looking stupid. I don't blame you for trying to dodge the question, though. From your side there is no good answer.
And no, a three-month old foetus is not a baby.
Yes, you need to dehumanize those whom you would kill in mass.Barry Arrington
January 20, 2015
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StephenB, I'm too angry to exchange comments with one such as you at the moment.Alicia Renard
January 20, 2015
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Alicia
That is meant to be an answer? Ignore my questions as to what to do with tens of millions of unwanted children and ask “Explain to me, Alicia, why chastity and self control are anathema to you.”?
I will be happy to answer your question. Unwanted children deserve to live just as much as wanted children. You don't get to kill people because you would prefer not to have them around. Now, how about answering my question: Why are chastity and self control anathema to you? Alicia
When a rapist attacks, when a drunken husband forces himself, when an abusive partner threatens to leave if his sexual demands are not met, how does your question about chastity help?
Well, gosh--I don't know any rapists who practice chastity, nor do I know of any chaste people who rape. It's a bit difficult to refrain from sexual activity and rape someone at the same time. Does that help? (Can you believe that we are having this conversation?)
When the 19-year-old-niece of a good friend meets a boy at a party who then arranges to lure her away so that, with the help of four accomplices, he can rape her? Hmm? Good Italian Catholic boys too!
You bet. That's chastity in action. (Unbelievable!)StephenB
January 20, 2015
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Barry
Those two are on your side. And just the two of them (along with Lenin’s successor Stalin), killed more innocent people than all of the wars of religion in history combined.
Yes, Barry, you are correct. For those keeping score, here is the tally: Religious Fanatics: 2,000,000 dead in 2000 years Moral Subjectvists: 300,000,000 dead in 100 years Of course, we also have to keep in mind that the religious wars are external conflicts. In many cases, the killing was done in self defense. The moral subjectivists, on the other hand, will kill anybody--even their own citizens. Other than that, have a nice day.StephenB
January 20, 2015
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BA
What in the world makes you think that just because someone does something evil they don’t understand it to be evil.
Because on the whole people do not like to do something which they find morally repulsive. There are plenty of examples of people doing things we find deeply morally wrong whom it would appear thought their actions not only acceptable but morally laudable - the most obvious currently examples coming from Islamic terrorists. To choose another from the top of my head, It seems unlikely that the Inca priest making a child sacrifice thought it was an evil act.Mark Frank
January 20, 2015
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BA I am not going to replay "how many people did your side kill". It is one of the more unthinking debates that takes place every few days on UD. I will argue that there was nothing subjective about Lenin and Mao's moral codes. As far as know, they firmly believed that communism was objectively morally right.Mark Frank
January 20, 2015
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