Never Fall into the Trap of Trying to Argue for the Self Evident

Those that want to ban men who think they are women from participating in women's sports are misogynists, those who want to allow men who think they are women to participate in women's sports are misogynists, whatever side they take they reveal themselves as misogynists. Tough place to land but men have oppressed women for thousands of years why should we expect anything less from some men here? Vivid vividbleau

Sc, when you can make a nine sided hexagon you may have power to make a new truth of our nature. Until then, all you are doing is blustering forth and seeking power to impose untruth, ignoring where that leads. Jacobins have been doing that since 1789, and it has always, predictably, ended in reigns of terror. KF kairosfocus

Scamp “And how are they harming women? Keeping in mind that I am on record of being against them competing in women’s competitive sports.” Yet no one has been able to explain why a woman should be denied the opportunity to compete with other women? Vivid vividbleau

Vivid: But not supportive of women, men who think they are a woman do no harm to other men only to women. There is a term for that, “misogynistic”

And how are they harming women? Keeping in mind that I am on record of being against them competing in women’s competitive sports. Scamp

“KF, you are free to continue tilting at windmills while I continue to be accepting and supportive of ………….and transgendered.” But not supportive of women, men who think they are a woman do no harm to other men only to women. There is a term for that, “misogynistic” Vivid vividbleau

Sev “Well, I’ll grant it’s a step up from boorish comments about grabbing women’s genitals.” What is a woman are you a biologist? Heheh Vivid vividbleau

KF, you are free to continue tilting at windmills while I continue to be accepting and supportive of homosexuals and transgendered. I take comfort in the fact that an ever increasing portion of the population agrees with me. Society continues to change for the better. Scamp

Sc, you know what you did, I corrected it for cause. And you full well know that power backed imposition of untruth attacks sound conscience and is inherently oppressive: there are no nine sided hexagons. KF kairosfocus

KF: Sc, you confirm — in fact, double down on — lack of ability to acknowledge patent fact [starting with an Internet full of examples of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information],

You are a little off topic.

F/N2: A definition: to lie, is to speak with disregard to truth, in hope of profit from what is said or suggested being taken as truth. KF

How are the vast majority of transexuals profiting by identifying as the opposite sex? It seems to me that it causes many of them unnecessary negative reactions from others. And how am I profiting from being accepting and supportive of them? Scamp

Was darwinism the biggest lie of the last milennium? Was there a bigger lie than that? Sandy

Es58/91

Unanswered questions Re 43 VB asking Sev “If I can change my sex why not my age?” And why not my ethnicity?

If it was possible, why not? Is there any doubt that if someone discovered a way of staving off ageing they would make a fortune almost overnight? Seversky

Vividbleau/90

Now relax Sev don’t hyperventilate because it’s from Trump Jr

Well, I'll grant it's a step up from boorish comments about grabbing women's genitals. Seversky

Vividbleau/78

Gays do not deny reality, men who think they are women do. The only reality regarding men who think they are women is just that, the reality is they are men who think they are women. That I don’t deny.

So far so good, we agree. They just want to transition to physically being as close to female as is possible with current medicine. What's the problem with that? Seversky

F/N3: Solzhenitsyn's 1974 essay, live not by lies https://ia600808.us.archive.org/6/items/LiveNotByLies/Live%20Not%20By%20Lies.pdf KF kairosfocus

F/N2: A definition: to lie, is to speak with disregard to truth, in hope of profit from what is said or suggested being taken as truth. KF kairosfocus

F/N, the big absurdity or delusion or lie, backed by power and imposed as untruth, is paving the way for mass attack on sound conscience, leading to a benumbed culture. This is fundamentally a spiritual attack, and here is Paul's counsel, c AD 61:

Eph 4: 17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,6 which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. 25 Therefore, having put away falsehood . . .

This, was written while he was in Rome as an appeals prisoner through false accusations backed by assassination plots (joined to hoped for bribes and attempts to appease the implacable) that forced him to appeal. Appeal, from the Sanhedrin bound by Lev 19:15 "You shall do no injustice in court . . . " to Nero Caesar. Yes, Rome's deviant, pervert and murderer in chief. Similarly, Jesus counselled us:

John 8: 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

When one makes a crooked yardstick into a false standard of what is true [= straight], accurate and upright, as what is genuinely such cannot conform to crookedness, it will be rejected. But it does not stop there, for no one form of crookedness matches a different form, so we see decline into seemingly irreconcilable conflicts and polarisation. This is part of why we must learn the lesson of plumb line, naturally straight and upright, self evident truths. Truths that can only be denied by clinging to absurdity. That, is what so many of our civilisation's power brokers hate and would marginalise. Maybe, have marginalised. So, we are at counter culture in the West, as Havel was in E Europe c 1980, a generation ago. We must never under estimate what lies behind what we see when crookedness is made into a counterfeit standard in the place of what is naturally straight and upright. Evil. And, we must determine that we shall not live by lies, untruth or delusion. kairosfocus

Sc, you confirm -- in fact, double down on -- lack of ability to acknowledge patent fact [starting with an Internet full of examples of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information], and unfortunately, that living by denial of realities is a big part of our growing problems, indeed that is precisely what is highlighted in the OP. Accordingly, I repeat: untruth is the foundation of injustice and always attacks sound conscience. Our civilisation is in increasing denial- of- reality trouble, and the geostrategic vultures are watching and calculating their chances. Beyond a certain point, fatal disaffection will also set in. KF PS, there is a name for the agit prop tactic you are now resorting to, the big lie . . . or in softer form, the big delusion/absurdity. You inadvertently confirm BA's point in the OP, and mine in 17:

while one does not try to prove the self evident it is entirely in order to highlight that for one of sufficient maturity/experience to understand the claim thus its necessary truth and patent absurdity of attempted denial, to insist on denial is to cling to patent absurdity. The issue then becomes, why that insistence on blatant folly.

F/N: In this case, even while you actually add further examples of FSCO/I, you deny that the Internet has trillions of cases of same. In 189's case, 144 ASCII characters, over 1,000 bits. The whole observed cosmos of ~10^80 atoms, each acting as an observer of configs of 1,000 coins, flipped every 10^-14 s, for 10^17 s, would carry out a search of 10^111 cells in the appropriate config space. Sounds like a lot. Unfortunately, 1,000 bits marks a space of 1.07*10^301 cells, so you are looking at sampling blindly 1 in 10^190 of the space, essentially negligible search. kairosfocus

VividbleauMarch 24, 2022 at 5:57 pm Unanswered questions Re 43 VB asking Sev “If I can change my sex why not my age?” And why not my ethnicity? es58

This is hilarious https://twitter.com/donaldjtrumpjr/status/1507077267045982231?s=21 Now relax Sev don’t hyperventilate because it’s from Trump Jr Vivid vividbleau

KF@82, you really can’t get over your failure of the “trillions of examples” argument, can you? Please, let it go. It will make you feel better. Scamp

Please. I prefer “senior citizen loser.” Scamp, Well, then I change my insulting remark to "go take your pills, gramps." ;) Andrew asauber

Andrew: Really, Scamp… you “argue” like a teenaged loser.

Please. I prefer “senior citizen loser.” Scamp

“They have never caused me harm,” Mansplaining. Vivid vividbleau

Unanswered questions Re 43 VB asking Sev “If I can change my sex why not my age?” Re 52 SC Things like the bathroom issue for example” VB “How about open locker rooms where a man has not fully physically transitioned?” SC “Their participation in women’s sports is a different issue. Personally, I don’t think it should be allowed at the top competitive levels.” VB “Why the heck not after all they are women are they not? You would deny a woman the opportunity to participate in women sports?” Vivid vividbleau

"don’t you and your spouse have sex purely for pleasure?" Really, Scamp... you "argue" like a teenaged loser. Andrew asauber

F/N: It seems there is need to point to Vaclav Havel's sobering words in his epochal essay on the power of the powerless: https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/wp-content/uploads/1979/01/the-power-of-the-powerless.pdf Food for sobering thought. To that, I add this: live not by lies. KF kairosfocus

Sc, your denial of blatant fact is now at the level of gaslighting, especially in the turnabout projection element. (Do I need to identify the leading proponents of that tactic of agit prop? Let's just say, it is time to reconsider.) Tell us, kindly, is or is not the Internet a repository of code that generally exceeds 500 - 1,000 bits per page? Then, too, tell us whether or no the number of pages is in the trillions altogether? The answers are plain, and amply -- just by themselves -- justify that there are trillions of cases of FSCO/I of known cause that are observed. That you cannot acknowledge plain fact like that, then try to pretend to dismiss it, then now wish to double down on blatant error to try to taint a way of describing what is impossible of being, tell us all we need to know, sadly so. You would be well advised to do some serious rethinking about the corner you have painted yourself into. Credibility, negative. KF kairosfocus

Sandy: The only people who do not deny reality are the heterosexuals. Reality is linked with functionality and utility not with the feelings/imagination/perversion.

Forgive me if I am getting too personal, but don’t you and your spouse have sex purely for pleasure? At least occasionally? The reason I ask is that I am over 60. The only purpose for sex at my age is pleasure. And, I must admit, I make the most of it. Scamp

Vivid: Gays do not deny reality,

I’m sorry, but I thing Barry, KF and Sandy would disagree with you. Scamp

Vividbleau Gays do not deny reality, men who think they are women do.

The only people who do not deny reality are the heterosexuals. Reality is linked with functionality and utility not with the feelings/imagination/perversion. If a process in the cell doesn't do the proper task what happens with the cell? Sandy

“There is no imposition of untruth. Transgender people are as much a reality as gay people and, like it or not, one with which we must come to terms.” Gays do not deny reality, men who think they are women do. The only reality regarding men who think they are women is just that, the reality is they are men who think they are women. That I don’t deny. Vivid vividbleau

Kairosfocus/59

Sev, gender has clearly been used to subvert sex and its regulation, leading to chaos.

I am not sure how gender is being used to subvert sex or what it even means to say sex is being subverted What I see is an attempt to explain that sex/gender is a much more complex phenomenon that the simple binary proposition that most people assume it to be.

Currently, we are in the equivalent position to looking for a nine sided hexagon, and as the OP shows, are imposing such absurdities through power brokers backing extremists.

I see it more as trying to get people to accept that there are both nonagons and hexagons and that recognition of one does not somehow undermine or invalidate the status of the other.

Here, girls who spent years of sacrifice and effort are suddenly put in position where they have to compete against men pretending or imagining that they are women, with consequences of loss of earned achievements and possibly scholarships etc.

That is a good point and it is for the sport's governing bodies to come up with a solution that will protect the girls who have sacrificed so much from unfair competition.

Onward, women’s athletics will be the loser, which has onward impact on attitude of women to physical activity and sports thus health.

It is clearly an issue which needs to addressed promptly.

The core issue, is imposition of untruth backed by state power that attacks sound conscience, which becomes oppressive. Such will not end well. KF

There is no imposition of untruth. Transgender people are as much a reality as gay people and, like it or not, one with which we must come to terms. Seversky

Scamp “but I also fail to understand the visceral opposition that some appear to have towards them. “ It’s not personal but I do have a visceral opposition of having to participate in a lie like my daughter was forced to do. Fortunately I am self employed but my daughter has three children and under threat of losing her job all she could do was to bend over and say “more please” Vivid vividbleau

BlackRock and Vanguard are intertwined from what I understand. https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/blackrock-vanguard-own-big-pharma-media/ jerry

Jerry “He controls the media and most of the corporate world and has done so almost anonymously. I have been pointing this out for weeks and everyone ignores it. Just as the world he controls keeps his power almost a secret.” Because of the business I am in I am very familiar with Fink and Blackrock and their control by proxy virtually every large cap SP 500 company. Vanguard is right behind them. Vivid vividbleau

"but I also fail to understand the visceral opposition that some appear to have towards them" Scamp, You are missing the point, deliberately. The point being- a man with lipstick, a wig, plastic surgery, and hormone injections is still a man. Andrew asauber

One word to describe Larry Fink

Not sure how the word applies. It’s too ubiquitous to be meaningful. He controls the media and most of the corporate world and has done so almost anonymously. I have been pointing this out for weeks and everyone ignores it. Just as the world he controls keeps his power almost a secret.

I also fail to understand the visceral opposition that some appear to have towards them

They (them) are openly recruiting small children and trying to cancel those who disagree. They are called “Groomers.” Larry Fink’s power is helping. jerry

Vivid: Thanks. I think we all would agree that is unacceptable behavior.

I agree. It is one thing to disagree with the societal acceptance of the transgendered and another to be a complete dick. I don’t pretend to understand the motivation and physiological stresses of the transgendered, as I believe is the case for most people commenting here, but I also fail to understand the visceral opposition that some appear to have towards them. They have never caused me harm, and the few that I know have been nothing but friendly, polite and generous. Scamp

Jerry One word to describe Larry Fink “fascist” Vivid vividbleau

Scamp Thanks. I think we all would agree that is unacceptable behavior. Vivid vividbleau

KF: We are looking at the equivalent of here is a nine sided hexagon,

Is “nine sided hexagon” your new “trillions if examples”? Scamp

Vivid: Do you know how the employee behaved inappropriately? Specifics would be nice to know. Thanks

Keep in mind that this is second hand. He apparently repeatedly talked to other staff making fun of the transgendered person. He continued to refuse to use her new legal name and repeatedly asked her about her Adam’s apple and repeatedly asked her if it was her time of the month. Things like that. Scamp

forcing them to enable lies

Forcing others to conform. Behaviors have to change. In his own words. From the most powerful man in the world.. https://twitter.com/backtolife_2022/status/1506726529799176203 He controls 10 trillion dollars. jerry

Sc, there can be no right to trample another's sound conscience, forcing them to enable lies. And a society that tries to build on untruth and forced conformity to it is becoming oppressive. All too soon, lies backed by power are deemed rights, and sound conscience that refuses to enable will be deemed hate or even treason, certainly to be censored, censured and soon enough persecuted, forfeiting freedom. We are looking at the equivalent of here is a nine sided hexagon, and don't you dare say otherwise. Or else, Mr Smith. KF kairosfocus

Scamp “No, the employee opted to behave inappropriately in the work place. So much so that it made the transgendered persons work life miserable and seriously impacted her coworkers.” Do you know how the employee behaved inappropriately? Specifics would be nice to know. Thanks Vivid vividbleau

KF: Sc, the chaos is already quite visible in the snapshot in the OP.

That is hardly chaos. It is one aspect of transgendered rights that will have to be sorted out. I suspect it will result in a limitation on transgendered rights in that they won’t be able to participate in competitive woman’s sports where strength is a deciding factor. I can hardly wait to read your responses to transgendered couples adopting. It will make for entertaining reading. Scamp

Sc, the chaos is already quite visible in the snapshot in the OP. The underlying issue, that untruth backed by power is a key element of injustice and attacks sound conscience, was already highlighted. The only real issue is what's the next click on the ratchet, and where it heads. KF PS, as in, plausibly https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/ethics/lfp-44a-what-is-2-2-mr-smith-1984-as-demonstration-of-how-first-duties-and-first-truths-are-inextricably-intertwined/ kairosfocus

KF: Sev, gender has clearly been used to subvert sex and its regulation, leading to chaos.

A little over the top, don’t you think. I don’t think sex has anything to fear.

Here, girls who spent years of sacrifice and effort are suddenly put in position where they have to compete against men pretending or imagining that they are women, with consequences of loss of earned achievements and possibly scholarships etc.

I can state with certainty that no Canadian girls have lost or ever will lose an athletic scholarship to a Canadian university because of any transgendered people.

The core issue, is imposition of untruth backed by state power that attacks sound conscience, which becomes oppressive. Such will not end well. KF

The move towards the acceptance of transgendered people will work itself out and society will be the better for it. As has been the case for the acceptance of homosexuality and same sex marriage. Scamp

From the Boston Museum of Science. https://twitter.com/paulanoukas/status/1506729825318449157 The differences are more than size however. It’s in several different types of metabolism too. In the case of the swimmers, it would definitely be in the muscle metabolism. jerry

Sev, gender has clearly been used to subvert sex and its regulation, leading to chaos. Currently, we are in the equivalent position to looking for a nine sided hexagon, and as the OP shows, are imposing such absurdities through power brokers backing extremists. Here, girls who spent years of sacrifice and effort are suddenly put in position where they have to compete against men pretending or imagining that they are women, with consequences of loss of earned achievements and possibly scholarships etc. Onward, women's athletics will be the loser, which has onward impact on attitude of women to physical activity and sports thus health. The core issue, is imposition of untruth backed by state power that attacks sound conscience, which becomes oppressive. Such will not end well. KF kairosfocus

CD, did you notice that you went off on an ad hominem-ish tangent? (And no, I will not go into what "borking" Bork was about and whodunit, other than, slander.) Here is an actual sample from his book, something we would be well advised to heed:

The defining characteristics of modern liberalism are radical egalitarianism (the equality of outcomes rather than of opportunities) and radical individualism (the drastic reduction of limits to personal gratification [= license substituted for liberty]). These may seem an odd pair, for individualism means liberty and liberty produces inequality, while equality of outcomes means coercion and coercion destroys liberty. If they are to operate simultaneously, radical egalitarianism and radical individualism, where they would compete, must be kept apart, must operate in different areas of life. That is precisely what we see in today’s culture. Radical egalitarianism reigns in areas of life and society where superior achievement is possible and would be rewarded but for coercion towards a state of equality . . . Radical individualism is demanded when there is no danger that achievement will produce inequality and people wish to be unhindered in the pursuit of pleasure. This finds expression especially in the areas of sexuality and the popular arts . . . . Radical egalitarianism necessarily presses us towards collectivism because a powerful state is required to suppress the differences that freedom produces. That raises the sinister and seemingly paradoxical possibility that radical individualism is the handmaiden of collectivist tyranny.

There is much more, food for thought at minimum. KF kairosfocus

Here is a guest post from The Official PLOS Blog which is my view of the sex/gender topic

A guest post from Talia Young, Ph.D., David H. Smith Conservation Postdoctoral Fellow, Princeton University & Director of Fishadelphia I recently saw another ecology talk refer to “gender ratios” of fish. I’d like to talk about the difference between sex and gender, and why ecologists should care about this topic. Definitions The words “sex” and “gender” are often used interchangeably in colloquial contexts, but they have different meanings that are relevant to our work in ecology. “Sex” refers to categories based on a combination of biological and physical characteristics, such as body organs, chromosomes, and hormones (WHO 2011, APA 2015). Sex is commonly assigned on the basis of external genitalia at birth and is often assumed to be only male or female, but scientists have identified at least five different groupings of human sex chromosomes, anatomy, and hormone physiology (Fausto-Sterling 1993). Other terms that relate to sex include intersex, freemartin, and hermaphrodite. (Note that hermaphrodite is a term currently used for animals but considered outdated and rude when used to describe humans; the preferred contemporary term for humans is intersex.) (“Sex” can also refer to activity among one or more individuals that may or may not result in sexual arousal and/or genetic recombination. I’m not addressing this meaning of the word in this piece.) “Gender” refers to identities and categories based on social or cultural characteristics (WHO 2011, APA 2015). Gender is both internal (gender identity, which is each person’s innate sense of their own gender), and external (gender expression, which is how each person expresses their gender identity). Woman, man, masculine, and feminine are all terms that can refer to gender. Transgender is a term used to describe a person whose gender identity is different from the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender is primarily a human and social term, and it is not usually relevant for non-human animals or plants. When we observe biological and physical aspects of our study organisms, those observations tell us about the sex of those individuals, not the gender. When we interact with other humans, we usually know more about their gender rather than their sex: for example, we often know about their clothing and hairstyles but not very much about their body organs, chromosomes, or hormones. (Furthermore, and this fact may be obvious, but clothing and hairstyles are not necessarily signifiers of any particular gender identity.) Among humans, sex and gender may be related, but they are not equivalent. In other words, female and woman are often thought to be synonymous, but in reality, female refers to different characteristics than woman does. It also seems worth noting that both of these sets of categories (sex and gender) are imperfect systems that we have developed in an attempt to describe the world we live in. As with all categorization systems (such as species, or developmental stages), the world is more complicated than our words can capture

Seversky

BA: The employee refused to affirm the lie that a man was a woman and the employer fired the employee for refusing to affirm that lie. That is evil.

No, the employee opted to behave inappropriately in the work place. So much so that it made the transgendered persons work life miserable and seriously impacted her coworkers.

KF: Re labelling sex as gender (which is held to be in the head) then inventing dozens of alleged genders etc becomes part of the problem, as personal identity in a healthy person aligns with expression of XX or XY chromosomes and significance for society.

Speaking of the brain and reality, the structure and functioning of the transgendered brain resembles more closely the gender they identify as than that of their biological sex. If injecting hormones and dressing and acting as the stereotype of the opposite sex makes a person happier and more comfortable, I could care less. I will refer to them by their new name, using the pronouns they prefer, and be polite and supportive. Scamp

KF @ 49 Wow, that's a blast from the past. Nixon's lap dog. The funny thing about Bork is that if he had shown the confirmation committee just a modicum of deference, he would have gotten Powell's slot on the USSC. Instead, he was a victim of his own arrogance and political naivete. Afterall, the USSC is a political animal, for good or bad. Ironically, his record on the DC Circuit was slightly left of center on a number of civil rights issues. But he was too outspoken about abortion and executive power. Watergate came back to haunt him. His writings afterword were too dystopian as he "slouched" into bitter preachiness and irrelevance. Like I posted above, I have more faith in Americans than the entitled purveyors of societal disintegration that post on this blog, constantly ranting and raving about the immanent Armageddon and their unique lock on "the truth." Living in that world is a depressing form of self-imposed exile, cutting yourself off from what I consider the most diverse, free and humane culture and, in many ways, the messiest, in history. chuckdarwin

Scamp:

There was one employee who refused to do this, refusing to address the person by her changed name and otherwise refusing to respect the decision. The president fired this person for creating a poisoned work environment.

The employee refused to affirm the lie that a man was a woman and the employer fired the employee for refusing to affirm that lie. That is evil. Listen, a man can say he is a woman all day long. That is none of my business. But when he wants to force me to say that he is a woman, that is my business and I refuse to do so. You apparently have no problem affirming the lie and don't seem to understand why someone else might not be willing to murder the truth along with you. To which I reply with a quote from Solzhenitsyn, who, as a resident of the USSR, knew a thing or two about others trying to force him to lie: "Let your credo be this. Let the lie come into the world. Let it even triumph. But not through me." Barry Arrington

Vivid:

As KF pointed out there are bigger issues at play. A society that denies reality is a society in serious decline.

Especially, when the denial is backed by power, leading to the DoI's long train of abuses and usurpations; raising, the question of a common design or agenda, hopeless subjugation under unaccountable, arbitrary, lawless oligarchic power. The moment in 1984 where Winston Smith is broken by torture to accept that 2 + 2 = whatever the Party needs it to be, is Orwell's way of putting the point. It seems, we are failing to realise that power backed untruth is the foundation of injustice and attacks sound conscience. Havel's discussion of the greengrocer decorating his store front with the appropriate prepackaged slogans, knowing but denying to himself that he dare not do otherwise, speaks. Ruinous marches/voyages of folly predictably come from such. KF kairosfocus

Scamp “Many of the transgendered controversies are a tempest in a teapot. “ As KF pointed out there are bigger issues at play. A society that denies reality is a society in serious decline. “Things like the bathroom issue for example” Are you a man or woman? How about open locker rooms where a man has not fully physically transitioned? “Their participation in women’s sports is a different issue. Personally, I don’t think it should be allowed at the top competitive levels.” Why the heck not after all they are women are they not? You would deny a woman the opportunity to participate in women sports? Vivid vividbleau

F/N, isn't it interesting that while we readily hear dismissive remarks about slippery slope fallacies, we seldom hear a serious discussion of Machiavelli's political hectic fever, or the need to be several moves and counter moves ahead of the board in the multidimensional geostrategic chess game? kairosfocus

PS, the deeper literary allusion, reflecting the shock of the Great War and Russian Revolution (etc):

The Second Coming W. B. Yeats - 1865-1939 Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Bork comments, as he opens his book:

When Yeats wrote that in 1919, he may have foreseen that the twentieth century would experience the “blood-dimmed tide,” as indeed it has. But he can hardly have had any conception of just how thoroughly things would fall apart as the center failed to hold in the last third of this century. He can hardly have foreseen that passionate intensity, uncoupled from morality, would shred the fabric of Western culture. The rough beast of decadence, a long time in gestation, having reached its maturity in the last three decades, now sends us slouching towards our new home, not Bethlehem but Gomorrah.

PPS, it seems the 25 year old CSpan vid is sadly problematic, okay, here is a YT lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wKAyZ15dvU kairosfocus

Sev & CD (& attn Vivid): I made a literary allusion that you missed: https://www.amazon.com/Slouching-Towards-Gomorrah-Liberalism-American/dp/0060573112

Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline Paperback – December 16, 2003 by Robert H. Bork [ . . . ] In this New York Times bestselling book, Robert H. Bork, our country's most distinguished conservative scholar, offers a prophetic and unprecedented view of a culture in decline, a nation in such serious moral trouble that its very foundation is crumbling: a nation that slouches not towards the Bethlehem envisioned by the poet Yeats in 1919, but towards Gomorrah. Slouching Towards Gomorrah is a penetrating, devastatingly insightful exposé of a country in crisis at the end of the millennium, where the rise of modern liberalism, which stresses the dual forces of radical egalitarianism (the equality of outcomes rather than opportunities) and radical individualism (the drastic reduction of limits to personal gratification), has undermined our culture, our intellect, and our morality. In a new Afterword, the author highlights recent disturbing trends in our laws and society, with special attention to matters of sex and censorship, race relations, and the relentless erosion of American moral values. The alarm he sounds is more sobering than ever: we can accept our fate and try to insulate ourselves from the effects of a degenerating culture, or we can choose to halt the beast, to oppose modern liberalism in every arena. The will to resist, he warns, remains our only hope.

Video discussion https://www.c-span.org/video/?76471-1/slouching-gomorrah And BTW, CD, my point is direct, there is no nine-sided hexagon, that is an absurdity. Re labelling sex as gender (which is held to be in the head) then inventing dozens of alleged genders etc becomes part of the problem, as personal identity in a healthy person aligns with expression of XX or XY chromosomes and significance for society. Anyone who publicly fails to tell truth that is blatant here, that men and women are readily definable on patent characteristics and built in reproductive role vital to the future of a race of mortals with lifespan typically less than 100 years and with each upcoming generation needing sound nurture on pain of loss of civilisation goes along with the pattern being warned against, and that is directly in the context of further going down the road of twisting the court turned into a nine member co monarchy into an instrument of further imposition, with court packing by ideologically driven expansion further lurking in the wings. Notice, my core caution:

[17:] while one does not try to prove the self evident it is entirely in order to highlight that for one of sufficient maturity/experience to understand the claim thus its necessary truth and patent absurdity of attempted denial, to insist on denial is to cling to patent absurdity. The issue then becomes, why that insistence on blatant folly . . . . [25:] the power backed championing of patent absurdity is championing of untruth in intimidation of truth and sound conscience; injustice is founded on untruth and attacks sound conscience . . . . [27:] kindly note my context. Your construct is first comparable to here is a nine sided hexagon, and is enabling of the agenda of blatant untruth imposed by power in attack on sound conscience that does contribute bit by bit to the sort of 1984 style undermining I pointed to; which is what can indeed do serious harm to civilisation . . . Already, conversion of a high court into such a co monarchy is more than dangerous enough — why wasn’t this stoutly fought and corrected long since? Now, the slippery slope ratchet moves on to the next notch or two. So, no, I do not buy that this is of little consequence and can be ignored, a ratchet cumulatively trends somewhere . . .

As current events show, internal breakdown in the state with lead role in guarding civilisation in the face of geostrategic vultures pursuing expansionism is potentially suicidal folly. And yes, the dots all connect. Officially backed refusal to recognise truth about sex is an outrageous sign of the danger on matters of far subtler import, geostrategic peril. Well did Machiavelli warn that political disorders are like hectic fever, at first hard to diagnose when it is easy to cure. But, when for want of prompt diagnosis and proper treatment the course of the disease is obvious to all, it is far too late to cure. Hectic fever, geostrategic form, is advancing as we speak. KF kairosfocus

Matthew 19:4 KJV And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female ... Blastus

Vivid, admittedly, mine is a second hand account. And I would have fired the person as well. I have also been through several courses. They were originally called “sensitivity training” but are more recently called “diversity in the workplace.” Although I thought i was always respectful of others, these courses did open my eyes to a few behaviours that I didn’t realize could cause distress for others. Personally, I have no problem with homosexuality, same sex marriage or transgendered. We shouldn’t be putting any unreasonable restrictions on people leading the lives they want to. The tipping point, of course, is when their actions cause harm to others. Many of the transgendered controversies are a tempest in a teapot. Things like the bathroom issue for example. Transgendered have always been using the bathroom of their choice, with no issues. All they are asking is to be able to do so without the risk of being arrested. Their participation in women’s sports is a different issue. Personally, I don’t think it should be allowed at the top competitive levels. But for recreational sports, who cares. Scamp

Scamp I don’t know what was said in the meeting since it’s a second hand account but I will assume the story is accurate. I would have fired them as well. All people should be treated with respect and dignity . Let me tell you my story which is not a second hand account and I personally saw the materials that were distributed. My daughter has a very high position in one of the largest hospitals in the country. One day I get a text from her along with screen shots of the various educational materials. She was subjected to a mandatory day long meeting where she had , under threat of losing her job, attend on gender identity. She had to participate in what can only be described as a struggle session where she had to affirm things she strenuously disagreed with, once again under threat for her job. The day long struggles session had nothing to do with treating people with respect or calling people what name they wanted to be called. My daughter believes that for instance (men who think they are women) should be treated with the utmosts respect. That what ever name they want to be called is how they should be addressed . However she was forced to acknowledge what she knew was a lie in order to keep her job. Vivid vividbleau

A company a friend of mine works for has an employee that was undergoing a sex change. The President of the company had a meeting with all staff, excluding the transitioning person, and told them that he expected them all to treat her with respect, and to respect the decision. There was one employee who refused to do this, refusing to address the person by her changed name and otherwise refusing to respect the decision. The president fired this person for creating a poisoned work environment. Scamp

Sev

My question to you would be, if they are willing to undergo the medical interventions and social stresses involved in transitioning and if it causes no harm to other members of society then why shouldn’t they?

1. They are harming others. In the OP I described how they harmed real women who worked their entire lives toward a goal, only to have it yanked from them at the last moment by a person who was competing on the men's team (where he belonged) just a few short months ago. 2. Why shouldn't they? On the one hand, they can do whatever they want so long as they don't force others to join them in their delusion, which they have done. On the other hand, the loving thing to do when someone is mentally/emotionally disturbed and living a lie is to try to help them. Saying, yes, you really are a man is not helping them. Barry Arrington

“Call it sex or gender but they have changed. “ Not their biological sex. “What exactly is this great lie that is being promoted with threats of shaming and loss of jobs?” That a biological male with XY chromosomes is a woman. “As for changing your age, no, you can’t change your calendar age “ If I can change my sex why not my age? Vivid vividbleau

Vividbleau/38

You are clueless, they have not changed their sex.

Call it sex or gender but they have changed. You may not like it but you can only deny it by denying the evidence.

Another falsehood, it is not enough that they believe a lie, or that you believe a lie but others have to participate in the lie as well under threat of shaming, loss of job, etc, etc, you will be punished for telling the truth.

What exactly is this great lie that is being promoted with threats of shaming and loss of jobs? As for changing your age, no, you can't change your calendar age but there are many people who spend a lot of time, money and trouble trying to change their appearance of ageing If it makes them happy then why shouldn't they do it? Who does it harm? Seversky

“under what was excessively partisan and hostile questioning from certain quarters” How dare they ask her( although she doesn’t know what a she or a her is) about her ( although she doesn’t know what a she or her is) record or her ( although she doesn’t know what a she or her is) judicial philosophy ( although she doe’s know what a she or a her is) to the smears and lies aimed at Barret, Kavanaugh, Thomas, Bork etc. I constantly ask myself what alternate universe you inhabit. “ think she demonstrated a very judicial demeanor” OMG she doesn’t even know what a woman is. How can you adjudicate sexual discrimination cases against women when you don’t know what a woman is? “By the way, did we ever get a verifiable justification for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or was it more like Putin’s justification for his attack on Ukraine?” KF don’t fall for Sevs attempt to derail the topic of the OP. Vivid vividbleau

Kairosfocus/33

Yup . . . slouching towards Gomorrah.

By the way, did we ever get a verifiable justification for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or was it more like Putin's justification for his attack on Ukraine? Seversky

Kairosfocus/27

Sev, kindly note my context. Your construct is first comparable to here is a nine sided hexagon, and is enabling of the agenda of blatant untruth imposed by power in attack on sound conscience that does contribute bit by bit to the sort of 1984 style undermining I pointed to; which is what can indeed do serious harm to civilisation.

Specifically what "blatant untruth" is being imposed on us by power by an incipient 1984-style autocracy?

Already, your country, to this geostrategic analyst as concerned onlooker, is contemplating appointing to your nine member co monarchy, one whose want of judicious temperament is seen through this same issue among others.

If you are referring to Ketanji Brown Jackson's nomination to the US Supreme Court, I think she demonstrated a very judicial demeanor under what was excessively partisan and hostile questioning from certain quarters who had no objections to Mitch McConnell's blatant stonewalling of President Obama's nominees. It seems that the right will have no objection to a "co monarchy" as long as it was packed with members who have demonstrated impeccable Trumpinista credentials.

Already, conversion of a high court into such a co monarchy is more than dangerous enough — why wasn’t this stoutly fought and corrected long since?

If you are talking about a Supreme Court that is so packed with conservatives that they would be prepared to be a rubber stamp for President Trump's ambitions if he is re-elected and finds a way to become President-for-life then you will find the US descending into a 1984/North Korean/Russian style autocracy which is what a significant portion of the US population appears to want as preferable to the progressive liberalism they fear and despise. Anyone who thinks that will be in for a very rude awakening if Trump were ever to get his way. Seversky

“No one is trying to compel you or anyone else to change sex so what’s the problem?” You are clueless, they have not changed their sex. “If they can make you believe absurdities they can make you believe atrocities” Voltaire “My question to you would be, if they are willing to undergo the medical interventions and social stresses involved in transitioning and if it causes no harm to other members of society then why shouldn’t they? No one is trying to compel you….” Another falsehood, it is not enough that they believe a lie, or that you believe a lie but others have to participate in the lie as well under threat of shaming, loss of job, etc, etc, you will be punished for telling the truth. Funny story, tonight I was discussing this with my son and my 12 year old grandson overheard the conservation and in the conversation I mentioned my age. My grandson said to me “Papa why can’t you just change your age” and then he laughed. It’s quite a commentary when my 12 year old grandson knows more than Seversky. Vivid vividbleau

Barry Arrington/24

“The pragmatic solution, it seems to me, bla bla bla” Or they can stop lying. There is no such thing as a transgender woman if by “transgender woman” one means a man who has, somehow, become a woman. That does not happen. It will never happen. Sev, the problem with your “solution” is that it is based on the unstated premise that we should change women’s sports to accommodate men pretending to be women. Back up Bubba. Explain to me why we should do that before explaining to me how we should do that.

If we are concerned about evidence then I suggest we have more than enough to support the claim that there are men who wish to adopt the female gender role in society for reasons of their own. My question to you would be, if they are willing to undergo the medical interventions and social stresses involved in transitioning and if it causes no harm to other members of society then why shouldn't they? No one is trying to compel you or anyone else to change sex so what's the problem? Seversky

"This is because to be gullible about impossible things and skeptical about self-evident things is the height of intellectual achievement. Wisdom is folly." - John C. Wright

Gaslight — A Third Reminder - 2019 - John C. Wright Excerpt: Reminders of the obvious are useful and necessary in world where all our major public institutions are engaged in a reckless policy of gaslighting the public, that is, of saying obviously false, absurdly illogical, and morally repugnant things with an assumed air of nonchalance, as if you, dear reader, were the madman for not conforming to the appearance of a consensus. The conformist believes that 97% of scientists agree bad weather resulting from air travel and cow flatulence will render the Earth uninhabitable in ten years time. The only possible solution to the looming crisis is to enact universal socialized medicine, abolish the law of supply and demand, and to have your children spayed and neutered. This is because science is based, not on objective reality, but on a consensus of scientific opinion, which is to say, political opinion. Truth is untrue. The conformist believes that pregnant men are guaranteed a constitutional right to murder a child in his womb, because men are not necessarily male, and children in the womb are not necessarily children. This is because constitutional law is based, not on logic, but on the proposition that a thing can be and not be both itself and not itself, at the same time and in the same sense. Reason is unreason. The conformist believes that sex is a social myth and not a biological reality, hence can be changed at whim, no matter what your genetic composition when born. On the other hand, sexual perversion, fetishism, pederasty, sodomy, and suchlike, are innate and genetically determined, hence cannot be changed. Therefore it should be illegal to offer counseling services to those struggling with same-sex attraction who seek a cure, because perversion is not a disorder, and there is nothing to cure. It should be celebrated instead. This is because sexual passion, but only when it is perverted from the norm, and thus aids in the dissolution of the nuclear family, is sacrosanct, and not to be opposed, nor even questioned. Decency and chastity are sinister attempts to oppress the righteous. Virtue is vice. The conformist believes that Epstein committed suicide, and that the news not only reported this fairly and accurately but is diligently following up the clues, seeking the truth. This is because to be gullible about impossible things and skeptical about self-evident things is the height of intellectual achievement. Wisdom is folly. http://www.scifiwright.com/2019/11/gaslight-a-third-reminder/

bornagain77

KF @ 27 Isn’t a “nine-sided hexagon,” actually a nonagon? For the record, I agree with Sev that Western culture does not hang in the balance due to transgenderism. Five years from now it’ll be all worked out, just like legal pot and same-sex marriage. No reason to get all apoplectic about it…. chuckdarwin

Wokeness has utterly corrupted Universities. Steven Crowder submitted a paper called "Fatness as Self-care in the Era of Trump" to an academic conference at Massey University using the name "Sea Mattheson." The paper, which is every bit as absurd as you imagine, was accepted Not only that, but Steven Croder (@scrowder) who is a man, dressed up as a woman, called himself Sea Mattheson, and digitally presented the paper at the virtual conference for PhD's and tenured professors ... and nobody at the conference could tell that the paper was a joke. Warning the above I got off of twitter( Wokaldistance) so it may be made up. Vivid vividbleau

Yup . . . slouching towards Gomorrah. kairosfocus

KF “Now, the slippery slope ratchet moves on to the next notch or two” Like safe, legal and rare? Vivid vividbleau

News “One reason I think this IS a science issue – not just a political one – is that the very concept of evidence from nature is at stake if we can’t take such things seriously at face value.” Science is not, cannot and will not escape the ramifications of literally denying reality the subject of scientific inquiry. Wokism is at war not only with science but nature itself. We are well on our way to Lysenkoism. Vivid vividbleau

Sev @ 26: “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” ? George Orwell, 1984. The whole point of this exercise is for progressives to arrogate unto themselves the authority to force you to deny the evidence of your eyes and ears. That is ultimate power. That is what they lust after. That is why you are wrong. Barry Arrington

One bad consequence of the triumph of Woke has been wholesale avoidance of evidence from nature. Here's a question: How often do women get transitioned in order to compete in the majors with men? We all know why they don't, don't we? One reason I think this IS a science issue - not just a political one - is that the very concept of evidence from nature is at stake if we can't take such things seriously at face value. How odd if Darwinians, of all people, would want to take the side of the Woke in this one. News

@Seversky@22 Your plea to institute new sport classifications has been heard: Ms Samson Agonistes, President of the influential rights group, Women With Testicles, speaking at a ceremony to induct Lia Thomas into the Women With Testicles Hall of Fame, has called for a new classification in sport. “The time is now to get away from the bipolar classification of sports into men’s and women’s. We see in future, for example, Men’s Baseball, Women’s Baseball, and Women With Testicles’ Baseball.” Head of Fox Sports, Dropkick Murphy, said he generally supports the idea but doubts if there were enough players in the third category to make two teams. Belfast

Sev, kindly note my context. Your construct is first comparable to here is a nine sided hexagon, and is enabling of the agenda of blatant untruth imposed by power in attack on sound conscience that does contribute bit by bit to the sort of 1984 style undermining I pointed to; which is what can indeed do serious harm to civilisation. Already, your country, to this geostrategic analyst as concerned onlooker, is contemplating appointing to your nine member co monarchy, one whose want of judicious temperament is seen through this same issue among others. Already, conversion of a high court into such a co monarchy is more than dangerous enough -- why wasn't this stoutly fought and corrected long since? Now, the slippery slope ratchet moves on to the next notch or two. So, no, I do not buy that this is of little consequence and can be ignored, a ratchet cumulatively trends somewhere. KF kairosfocus

Kairosfocus/17

* F/N, given certain red guard faux rage tactics, kindly note I am of afro-euro-indio-Caribbean ethnicity and not an American but I am going to champion basic civilisation; which is patently under assault by barbarians in the gates who don’t realise the consequences of toppling what they seek to overturn. So, kindly refrain from silly rhetoric about race or misogyny. Instead, read and ponder Plato’s Ship of State parable i/l/o Athens’ failure through the Peloponnesian war.

I may be wrong but I doubt that allowing a transgender woman to compete in a swimming event is going to be sufficient to bring about the collapse of Western civilization. Seversky

Sev, the power backed championing of patent absurdity is championing of untruth in intimidation of truth and sound conscience; injustice is founded on untruth and attacks sound conscience. KF PS, And yes, I am pointing to the branch on which we all cannot but sit, self evident first principle nature of the Ciceronian first duties of reason . . . foundational to sound civilisation: Kindly, see Dallas Willard on the legitimate authority of knowledge (vs the radical narrative of oppression) https://uncommondesc.wpengine.com/education/lfp-48i-dallas-willard-on-the-legitimate-authority-of-knowledge-vs-the-radical-narrative-of-oppression/ note the list of first duties:

1st – to truth, 2nd – to right reason, 3rd – to prudence [including <a href = "">warrant], 4th – to sound conscience, 5th – to neighbour; so also, 6th – to fairness and 7th – to justice [ . . .] xth – etc.

kairosfocus

Sev, "The pragmatic solution, it seems to me, bla bla bla" Or they can stop lying. There is no such thing as a transgender woman if by "transgender woman" one means a man who has, somehow, become a woman. That does not happen. It will never happen. Sev, the problem with your "solution" is that it is based on the unstated premise that we should change women's sports to accommodate men pretending to be women. Back up Bubba. Explain to me why we should do that before explaining to me how we should do that. Barry Arrington

for example, is never pitted against a heavyweight against whom the lighter man would stand very little chance. I don’t think it is beyond the wit of man – or woman – to devise such a scheme, is it?

You obviously don’t understand the difference between men and women in terms of physical characteristics. They have different muscle development as well as weight and body size. Look at the women who actually won. She’s tall and thin and I bet with small breast. But probably fairly strong. (Remember I pointed out the odd thing is the woman from Texas who actually finished second. She’s unlike nearly every top swimmer I have known because of body shape. Especially for freestyle.) I’m aware of several outstanding female high school athletes who never developed any further because their bodies changed dramatically as they got older. They might just want to have a category for other. jerry

I think the NCAA decision was ill-considered but to call it evil is hyperbole. The pragmatic solution, it seems to me, if transgender women are to be allowed to compete in such events, is to follow the example of boxing where it is divided into weight divisions so that a featherweight, for example, is never pitted against a heavyweight against whom the lighter man would stand very little chance. I don't think it is beyond the wit of man - or woman - to devise such a scheme, is it? Seversky

FE, the tactic is part of the agit prop agenda, turnabout projection. I need not identify the two most notorious practitioners, whose surnames started with G and H. KF kairosfocus

ChuckyD, Since you have calmed down a little, maybe you could explain why this OP in particular triggered you? If you could address the content of the OP that would help with some understanding. It's pretty unclear why the cryptic hit and run at #1. Andrew asauber

So "Jessica" responds, "Here’s an idea: you could make your point respectfully." I have always been amazed at how progressives accuse conservatives of doing what they themselves do all the time. The only times I have been flamed, cancelled, or publicly whipped on social media is when I respectfully disagreed with some progressive opinion or statement. It seems that progressives can be civil only when you agree with them, and they seem to think it their duty to attack by any means - fair or otherwise - anything they disagree with. Very one sided arguments result; which, of course, is what they want. Fasteddious

CD, the case in the OP is patent gaslighting, reflective of the story of the naked emperor parading down the street and (with his advisors) pretending to be richly robed. KF kairosfocus

BA, while one does not try to prove the self evident it is entirely in order to highlight that for one of sufficient maturity/experience to understand the claim thus its necessary truth and patent absurdity of attempted denial, to insist on denial is to cling to patent absurdity. The issue then becomes, why that insistence on blatant folly. Similarly, and on fair comment, for a practising judge to imagine she can publicly suggest that one must be a biologist to identify what a woman is, is a mark of grossly injudicious temperament.* Likewise, I am not about to surrender to someone waving a stats degree, the epistemic-logical right of a scientist to infer that a strong, readily and widely observable pattern reflecting obvious regularity of the world and leading to inference on a reliable sign is informative and even conclusive. Perhaps, such persons should consider the joint work in astronomy and mathematics of one certain Herr Gauss of a certain well known inverse U shaped curve, and what personal equation means per roots in astronomy. KF * F/N, given certain red guard faux rage tactics, kindly note I am of afro-euro-indio-Caribbean ethnicity and not an American but I am going to champion basic civilisation; which is patently under assault by barbarians in the gates who don't realise the consequences of toppling what they seek to overturn. So, kindly refrain from silly rhetoric about race or misogyny. Instead, read and ponder Plato's Ship of State parable i/l/o Athens' failure through the Peloponnesian war. kairosfocus

@ 15 Given my response at 13, I find your comment deeply ironic.... chuckdarwin

Chuck at 13. I believe outrages against truth and justice call for forceful responses. You apparently don't. That does not speak well of you. Barry Arrington

I have been around swimming for years, some of that time with Olympic gold medalists. The most amazing thing is the body size of the women who finished third (really second). Her body size is unusual for a top swimmer. ——————— And then competing for ironic comment of the century

don’t need to be a complete jerk about it.

From one of the biggest jerks ever to come here. jerry

I removed my previous comment. It was intemperate. But my point is the same. I didn’t say you had to be mute. I’m saying that you don’t need to be a complete jerk about it. chuckdarwin

“ didn’t say you needed to be quiet, I’m saying that you don’t need to be a flaming a**hole about it. That is why you are losing the culture wars—badly.” We are losing the culture wars because we have lost the propaganda wars waged daily by virtually every cultural institution in the country. They are swimming in a sea of lies and people like you like are nothing but a fish with a hook in your mouth being reeled into the boat. How’s that for being an a hole. Vivid vividbleau

"you don’t need to be a flaming a**hole about it." So much for reasonable discourse. Andrew asauber

Thank you BA77 and Vivid. Chuck, Andrew poses a question at 5 that deserves an answer. Why do you think people should be mute in the face of insanity? Barry Arrington

That Texas girl says it all. "YOU CHEATED." It's especially poignant because Texas and Okie girls have always been doing "male" things without BECOMING males. Running businesses and fixing cars without mussing their bouffants or losing their eyelashes. polistra

BA “Barry that OP deserves a standing ovation.” I’m standing Vivid vividbleau

Barry “Anyone who says a man is a woman is a liar. Anyone who says they are “undecided” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Anyone who says there is a “controversy” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Liars are murderers of the truth and worthy of nothing but contempt. You err when you suggest that my purpose is to change hearts and minds. It is not. Everyone’s hearts and minds are already of one accord in that everyone already knows a man can never be a woman and men should not be allowed to crush women in athletic competitions.” Well said. “To this I say there is certainly a time for respectful dialogue among people acting in good faith concerning matters about which people of good will can differ. This is not one of them.” This is a ideological war which my side is badly losing but we must not indulge insanity and the time for niceties is over. I noticed in your OP that you did not once use the term “transgender”, bravo. Whoever controls the language controls thoughts. There is no such thing as “ transgender” and to adopt that word is to lose the battle before it starts. I have removed that term completely from my vocabulary and have urged all my friends, coworkers, family and anyone else around me to do that as well. There are men who think they are women and women who think they are men, that’s it , full stop, they are not transgender. Vivid vividbleau

Barry that OP deserves a standing ovation. https://i.gifer.com/FAz3.gif bornagain77

ChuckyD, Why don't you explain why you think no one is allowed to be upset about this travesty. Andrew asauber

In case anyone has not noticed we have a woman Supreme Court nominee who does not know what a woman is. Absolutely insane. Vivid vividbleau

Women's sports was especially vulnerable because for decades, feminists had hammered on the theme that there are no important differences between men and women. Lia Thomas was big karma for the feminists - and a wakeup call for the swim moms. Where do the moms' loyalties really lie? Hence the current pushback. Nature isn't everything. But don't bet against nature. This is in part an issue about what "science" means. Is science simply ideology dressed up in science terms or does it describe nature - and therefore is bound by reality-based results? I (O'Leary for News) can live with radical feminists getting a dose of karma but hate to see hardworking youngsters bearing the brunt. With any luck, lots of people will start to think that way. News

Chuck, apparently you are happy with the fact that young women who trained for years had their hopes and dreams crushed by a man posing as a woman. That is evil. No, dude, I will not be silent. Barry Arrington

Take a chill pill, dude….. chuckdarwin