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Never Fall into the Trap of Trying to Argue for the Self Evident

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For two reasons, it is a mistake to argue for self-evident propositions.  First, it is impossible to argue for a self-evident proposition because the definition of a self-evident proposition is a proposition that is known to be true merely by understanding its meaning.  Consider the challenge “I deny 1+1=2.  Prove it.”  Don’t fall for it.  If a person denies the glaring truth of such an analytic statement (i.e., 1+1 actually means 2), they are a hopeless fool. Nothing you can say to them will reduce the proposition to more basic terms. 

Secondly, arguing for self-evident truths is rhetorically self-defeating, because the very act of trying to argue for them concedes the proposition that they are “arguable.”  And they are, again by definition, not arguable. 

This is not an academic matter.  We live in a time when self-evident truths are being denied by foolish and/or evil people.  The following Facebook exchange that I had last weekend brought this home to me.  Note especially my “king has no clothes” response at the end.

Barry opens the debate:

A date that will live in infamy. NCAA gives women’s swimming championship to man posing as a woman.  One thing makes this Texan’s heart nearly burst with pride though. The girl in burnt orange giving him the stink eye on the podium.  BTW, for the nearly braindead and progressives (categories that overlap considerably), I have added handy notes to identify the man and the women.

“Jessica” responds:

Here’s an idea: you could make your point respectfully. If you really care about changing hearts and minds (indeed, this a powerful photo) maybe you could avoid insulting those who disagree or remain undecided on this controversial issue. Our public discourse deserves better.

Barry replies:

Jessica chides me for not being respectful to the people who argue that men pretending to be women should be allowed to crush real women in athletic competitions.  To this I say there is certainly a time for respectful dialogue among people acting in good faith concerning matters about which people of good will can differ. This is not one of them.

Anyone who says a man is a woman is a liar. Anyone who says they are “undecided” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Anyone who says there is a “controversy” about whether a man can be a woman is a liar. Liars are murderers of the truth and worthy of nothing but contempt.

You err when you suggest that my purpose is to change hearts and minds. It is not. Everyone’s hearts and minds are already of one accord in that everyone already knows a man can never be a woman and men should not be allowed to crush women in athletic competitions.

When the king walked down the street with no clothes on, no one needed to be convinced that he was naked.  No one needed a thoughtful augment designed to change their hearts and minds about the obvious facts that they already knew. They needed to be reminded that they were cowards and liars for denying the obvious truth.

No, I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I am holding evil people up for the contempt they richly deserve.

Comments
Those that want to ban men who think they are women from participating in women's sports are misogynists, those who want to allow men who think they are women to participate in women's sports are misogynists, whatever side they take they reveal themselves as misogynists. Tough place to land but men have oppressed women for thousands of years why should we expect anything less from some men here? Vividvividbleau
March 25, 2022
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Sc, when you can make a nine sided hexagon you may have power to make a new truth of our nature. Until then, all you are doing is blustering forth and seeking power to impose untruth, ignoring where that leads. Jacobins have been doing that since 1789, and it has always, predictably, ended in reigns of terror. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2022
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Scamp “And how are they harming women? Keeping in mind that I am on record of being against them competing in women’s competitive sports.” Yet no one has been able to explain why a woman should be denied the opportunity to compete with other women? Vividvividbleau
March 25, 2022
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Vivid: But not supportive of women, men who think they are a woman do no harm to other men only to women. There is a term for that, “misogynistic”
And how are they harming women? Keeping in mind that I am on record of being against them competing in women’s competitive sports.Scamp
March 25, 2022
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“KF, you are free to continue tilting at windmills while I continue to be accepting and supportive of ………….and transgendered.” But not supportive of women, men who think they are a woman do no harm to other men only to women. There is a term for that, “misogynistic” Vividvividbleau
March 25, 2022
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Sev “Well, I’ll grant it’s a step up from boorish comments about grabbing women’s genitals.” What is a woman are you a biologist? Heheh Vividvividbleau
March 25, 2022
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KF, you are free to continue tilting at windmills while I continue to be accepting and supportive of homosexuals and transgendered. I take comfort in the fact that an ever increasing portion of the population agrees with me. Society continues to change for the better.Scamp
March 25, 2022
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Sc, you know what you did, I corrected it for cause. And you full well know that power backed imposition of untruth attacks sound conscience and is inherently oppressive: there are no nine sided hexagons. KFkairosfocus
March 25, 2022
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KF: Sc, you confirm — in fact, double down on — lack of ability to acknowledge patent fact [starting with an Internet full of examples of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information],
You are a little off topic.
F/N2: A definition: to lie, is to speak with disregard to truth, in hope of profit from what is said or suggested being taken as truth. KF
How are the vast majority of transexuals profiting by identifying as the opposite sex? It seems to me that it causes many of them unnecessary negative reactions from others. And how am I profiting from being accepting and supportive of them?Scamp
March 25, 2022
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Was darwinism the biggest lie of the last milennium? Was there a bigger lie than that?Sandy
March 25, 2022
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Es58/91
Unanswered questions Re 43 VB asking Sev “If I can change my sex why not my age?” And why not my ethnicity?
If it was possible, why not? Is there any doubt that if someone discovered a way of staving off ageing they would make a fortune almost overnight?Seversky
March 25, 2022
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Vividbleau/90
Now relax Sev don’t hyperventilate because it’s from Trump Jr
Well, I'll grant it's a step up from boorish comments about grabbing women's genitals.Seversky
March 25, 2022
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Vividbleau/78
Gays do not deny reality, men who think they are women do. The only reality regarding men who think they are women is just that, the reality is they are men who think they are women. That I don’t deny.
So far so good, we agree. They just want to transition to physically being as close to female as is possible with current medicine. What's the problem with that?Seversky
March 25, 2022
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F/N3: Solzhenitsyn's 1974 essay, live not by lies https://ia600808.us.archive.org/6/items/LiveNotByLies/Live%20Not%20By%20Lies.pdf KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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F/N2: A definition: to lie, is to speak with disregard to truth, in hope of profit from what is said or suggested being taken as truth. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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F/N, the big absurdity or delusion or lie, backed by power and imposed as untruth, is paving the way for mass attack on sound conscience, leading to a benumbed culture. This is fundamentally a spiritual attack, and here is Paul's counsel, c AD 61:
Eph 4: 17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22 to put off your old self,6 which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. 25 Therefore, having put away falsehood . . .
This, was written while he was in Rome as an appeals prisoner through false accusations backed by assassination plots (joined to hoped for bribes and attempts to appease the implacable) that forced him to appeal. Appeal, from the Sanhedrin bound by Lev 19:15 "You shall do no injustice in court . . . " to Nero Caesar. Yes, Rome's deviant, pervert and murderer in chief. Similarly, Jesus counselled us:
John 8: 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
When one makes a crooked yardstick into a false standard of what is true [= straight], accurate and upright, as what is genuinely such cannot conform to crookedness, it will be rejected. But it does not stop there, for no one form of crookedness matches a different form, so we see decline into seemingly irreconcilable conflicts and polarisation. This is part of why we must learn the lesson of plumb line, naturally straight and upright, self evident truths. Truths that can only be denied by clinging to absurdity. That, is what so many of our civilisation's power brokers hate and would marginalise. Maybe, have marginalised. So, we are at counter culture in the West, as Havel was in E Europe c 1980, a generation ago. We must never under estimate what lies behind what we see when crookedness is made into a counterfeit standard in the place of what is naturally straight and upright. Evil. And, we must determine that we shall not live by lies, untruth or delusion.kairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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Sc, you confirm -- in fact, double down on -- lack of ability to acknowledge patent fact [starting with an Internet full of examples of functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information], and unfortunately, that living by denial of realities is a big part of our growing problems, indeed that is precisely what is highlighted in the OP. Accordingly, I repeat: untruth is the foundation of injustice and always attacks sound conscience. Our civilisation is in increasing denial- of- reality trouble, and the geostrategic vultures are watching and calculating their chances. Beyond a certain point, fatal disaffection will also set in. KF PS, there is a name for the agit prop tactic you are now resorting to, the big lie . . . or in softer form, the big delusion/absurdity. You inadvertently confirm BA's point in the OP, and mine in 17:
while one does not try to prove the self evident it is entirely in order to highlight that for one of sufficient maturity/experience to understand the claim thus its necessary truth and patent absurdity of attempted denial, to insist on denial is to cling to patent absurdity. The issue then becomes, why that insistence on blatant folly.
F/N: In this case, even while you actually add further examples of FSCO/I, you deny that the Internet has trillions of cases of same. In 189's case, 144 ASCII characters, over 1,000 bits. The whole observed cosmos of ~10^80 atoms, each acting as an observer of configs of 1,000 coins, flipped every 10^-14 s, for 10^17 s, would carry out a search of 10^111 cells in the appropriate config space. Sounds like a lot. Unfortunately, 1,000 bits marks a space of 1.07*10^301 cells, so you are looking at sampling blindly 1 in 10^190 of the space, essentially negligible search.kairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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VividbleauMarch 24, 2022 at 5:57 pm Unanswered questions Re 43 VB asking Sev “If I can change my sex why not my age?” And why not my ethnicity?es58
March 24, 2022
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This is hilarious https://twitter.com/donaldjtrumpjr/status/1507077267045982231?s=21 Now relax Sev don’t hyperventilate because it’s from Trump Jr Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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KF@82, you really can’t get over your failure of the “trillions of examples” argument, can you? Please, let it go. It will make you feel better.Scamp
March 24, 2022
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Please. I prefer “senior citizen loser.” Scamp, Well, then I change my insulting remark to "go take your pills, gramps." ;) Andrewasauber
March 24, 2022
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Andrew: Really, Scamp… you “argue” like a teenaged loser.
Please. I prefer “senior citizen loser.”Scamp
March 24, 2022
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“They have never caused me harm,” Mansplaining. Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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Unanswered questions Re 43 VB asking Sev “If I can change my sex why not my age?” Re 52 SC Things like the bathroom issue for example” VB “How about open locker rooms where a man has not fully physically transitioned?” SC “Their participation in women’s sports is a different issue. Personally, I don’t think it should be allowed at the top competitive levels.” VB “Why the heck not after all they are women are they not? You would deny a woman the opportunity to participate in women sports?” Vividvividbleau
March 24, 2022
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"don’t you and your spouse have sex purely for pleasure?" Really, Scamp... you "argue" like a teenaged loser. Andrewasauber
March 24, 2022
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F/N: It seems there is need to point to Vaclav Havel's sobering words in his epochal essay on the power of the powerless: https://www.nonviolent-conflict.org/wp-content/uploads/1979/01/the-power-of-the-powerless.pdf Food for sobering thought. To that, I add this: live not by lies. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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Sc, your denial of blatant fact is now at the level of gaslighting, especially in the turnabout projection element. (Do I need to identify the leading proponents of that tactic of agit prop? Let's just say, it is time to reconsider.) Tell us, kindly, is or is not the Internet a repository of code that generally exceeds 500 - 1,000 bits per page? Then, too, tell us whether or no the number of pages is in the trillions altogether? The answers are plain, and amply -- just by themselves -- justify that there are trillions of cases of FSCO/I of known cause that are observed. That you cannot acknowledge plain fact like that, then try to pretend to dismiss it, then now wish to double down on blatant error to try to taint a way of describing what is impossible of being, tell us all we need to know, sadly so. You would be well advised to do some serious rethinking about the corner you have painted yourself into. Credibility, negative. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2022
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Sandy: The only people who do not deny reality are the heterosexuals. Reality is linked with functionality and utility not with the feelings/imagination/perversion.
Forgive me if I am getting too personal, but don’t you and your spouse have sex purely for pleasure? At least occasionally? The reason I ask is that I am over 60. The only purpose for sex at my age is pleasure. And, I must admit, I make the most of it.Scamp
March 24, 2022
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Vivid: Gays do not deny reality,
I’m sorry, but I thing Barry, KF and Sandy would disagree with you.Scamp
March 24, 2022
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Vividbleau Gays do not deny reality, men who think they are women do.
The only people who do not deny reality are the heterosexuals. Reality is linked with functionality and utility not with the feelings/imagination/perversion. If a process in the cell doesn't do the proper task what happens with the cell?Sandy
March 24, 2022
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