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No evidence for God’s existence, you say? A response to Larry Moran

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Despite my disagreements with Professor Larry Moran over the years, I respect him as a fair-minded, intelligent and generally sensible person. Recently, however, he said something which can only be described as rather silly. In a post titled, Evidence for the existence of god(s), he wrote:

I am always on the lookout for evidence that some sort of god actually exists. The reason I’m an atheist is because I’ve never seen any evidence that’s the least bit convincing. I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.

Now, had Professor Moran merely remarked that he found the evidence for God’s existence less than compelling, or unsatisfactory, he would have had a leg to stand on. But he went much further: he declared it to be not in the least bit convincing, which can only mean that he sets its evidential value at zero. He then added: “I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.” The only conclusion I can draw is that Professor Moran really thinks there is no evidence for God. This interpretation is confirmed by a remark he makes in another post, where he declares that “[s]o far, the scientific way of knowing has uncovered no evidence of anything that exists outside of the natural world” (emphasis mine – VJT), although he allows that science may discover evidence of the supernatural, “at some time in the future.”

In his recent post, Professor Moran then proceeds to enumerate ten items of evidence listed by Barry Arrington in a post titled, Astonishingly Stupid Things Atheists Say, before throwing the floor open for discussion. According to Larry Moran, none of the items below counts as evidence – let alone good evidence – for the existence of God, or a supernatural reality:

  • The fine tuning of the universe.
  • The moral sense.
  • The fact that a natural universe cannot logically have a natural cause.
  • The fact that there is something instead of nothing.
  • The overwhelming odds against the Darwinian story being true (estimated at 10^-1018 by atheist Eugene Koonin).
  • The irreducible complexity of biological systems.
  • The vast amounts of complex computer-like code stored in DNA.
  • The miracles that have been reported throughout history.
  • My subjective self-awareness.
  • The fact that we do not even have plausible speculations to account for the origin of life.

In this post, I won’t be saying much about arguments for God based on the moral sense and subjective self-awareness, because (a) in my experience, attempting to convince atheists of God’s existence on the basis of these arguments is a waste of time, and (b) the arguments need to be formulated very carefully in order for them to work. I”ll just say a little about these arguments, at the end.

That leaves eight arguments, which I’ll address in my own order. I”ll begin with the scientific arguments.

The fine-tuning of the universe (Argument 1)

I’ve written a lot on the fine-tuning argument, and my recent post, Professor Krauss Objects, explains why I think that the various scientific objections to the argument – including the multiverse hypothesis – all fail miserably. I’m not going to repeat myself here. But I will say that anyone who could read Dr. Robin Collins’ essay, essay entitled, The Teleological Argument: An Exploration of the Fine-Tuning of the Universe (in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, edited by William Lane Craig and J. P. Moreland, 2009, Blackwell Publishing Ltd.), and say that there is no evidence for God is really being rather uncharitable.

I might also mention that the late Christopher Hitchens, who was a self-described anti-theist, had a healthy respect for the argument from fine-tuning. In a post titled, Fine Tuning the Multiverse Theory, Christian apologist Peter May narrates the story of an amicable discussion between the late Christopher Hitchens and pastor Douglas Wilson, after one of their debates:

Hitchens raised the question as to which was the strongest argument used against atheists and he had no difficulty in identifying it. “The fine-tuning argument we all agree is the most intriguing. It is not trivial – we all say that.” Here he is clearly speaking for his New Atheist friends. Hitchens is emphatic and repeats the point, “We all agree about that.

Christopher Hitchens considered the fine-tuning argument to be the best evidence for God, and he also regarded it as intriguing – even if he himself was not convinced by it. Professor Moran, on the other hand, thinks that the argument doesn’t even deserve to be called “evidence,” since he writes: “I keep asking for evidence but nobody ever supplies any.” I’ll let my readers judge whether Professor Moran is being unreasonably fussy, when it comes to what qualifies as “evidence.”

The origin of life (Arguments 5 and 10)

In his post, Barry Arrington refers to the work of evolutionary biologist Dr. Eugene Koonin, whose peer-reviewed article, The Cosmological Model of Eternal Inflation and the Transition from Chance to Biological Evolution in the History of Life, Biology Direct 2 (2007): 15, doi:10.1186/1745-6150-2-15, is available online. Using a “toy model” which makes some very generous assumptions, Dr. Koonin estimates that the odds of even a very basic life-form – a coupled replication-translation system – emerging in the observable universe are 1 in 1 followed by 1,018 zeroes. Dr. Koonin evades this difficulty by positing a multiverse – a “solution” which fails on no less than five grounds, which I discussed in detail in my recent post, Professor Krauss Objects.

Dr. Koonin’s paper passed a panel of four reviewers, including one from Harvard University, who wrote:

In this work, Eugene Koonin estimates the probability of arriving at a system capable of undergoing Darwinian evolution and comes to a cosmologically small number…;

The context of this article is framed by the current lack of a complete and plausible scenario for the origin of life. Koonin specifically addresses the front-runner model, that of the RNA-world, where self-replicating RNA molecules precede a translation system. He notes that in addition to the difficulties involved in achieving such a system is the paradox of attaining a translation system through Darwinian selection. That this is indeed a bona-fide paradox is appreciated by the fact that, without a shortage [of] effort, a plausible scenario for translation evolution has not been proposed to date. There have been other models for the origin of life, including the ground-breaking Lipid-world model advanced by Segrè, Lancet and colleagues (reviewed in EMBO Reports (2000), 1(3), 217–222), but despite much ingenuity and effort, it is fair to say that all origin of life models suffer from astoundingly low probabilities of actually occurring

…[F]uture work may show that starting from just a simple assembly of molecules, non-anthropic principles can account for each step along the rise to the threshold of Darwinian evolution. Based upon the new perspective afforded to us by Koonin this now appears unlikely. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Think about that. A leading evolutionary biologist has calculated that the odds of even a very basic life-form – a coupled replication-translation system – emerging in the observable universe are 1 in 1 followed by 1,018 zeroes. To avoid the theistic implications of his argument, he posits a multiverse – a solution which, as I’ve argued, is shot through with holes. And Professor Moran thinks this doesn’t even constitute evidence for God’s existence, let alone proof? Frankly, I’m gobsmacked.

I’d also like to quote from an interview with Anthony Flew, who was arguably the leading philosophical atheist of the 20th century, and who converted to deism in 2004, when he was 81. Here’s a short excerpt from a 2004 interview between Flew and Christian philosopher Gary Habermas:

HABERMAS: … Which arguments for God’s existence did you find most persuasive?

FLEW: I think that the most impressive arguments for God’s existence are those that are supported by recent scientific discoveries. I’ve never been much impressed by the kalam cosmological argument, and I don’t think it has gotten any stronger recently. However, I think the argument to Intelligent Design is enormously stronger than it was when I first met it.

HABERMAS: So you like arguments such as those that proceed from big bang cosmology and fine tuning arguments?

FLEW: Yes…

HABERMAS: So of the major theistic arguments, such as the cosmological, teleological, moral, and ontological, the only really impressive ones that you take to be decisive are the scientific forms of teleology?

FLEW: Absolutely. It seems to me that Richard Dawkins constantly overlooks the fact that Darwin himself, in the fourteenth chapter of The Origin of Species, pointed out that his whole argument began with a being which already possessed reproductive powers. This is the creature the evolution of which a truly comprehensive theory of evolution must give some account. Darwin himself was well aware that he had not produced such an account. It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.

Finally, I’d like to quote the testimony of Professor Richard Smalley (1943-2005), winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. Towards the end of his life, Dr. Richard Smalley became an Old Earth creationist, after reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist). Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

“Puts the evolutionary model to death”?! These are pretty strong words for a Nobel scientist. And yet, despite this testimony from a Nobel Prize-winning chemist, Professor Moran thinks that there is no evidence for the existence of a supernatural Designer of life.

The irreducibility of biochemical systems (Argument 6)

I’d like to quote from ID advocate Casy Luskin’s article, Leading Biologists Marvel at the “Irreducible Complexity” of the Ribosome, but Prefer Evolution-of-the-Gaps over at Evolution News and Views. The article is about a roundtable symposium on the origin of life, entitled, “Life: What A Concept!”, which was held in 2008 and hosted by John Brockman. The participants included some very prominent people in the field of origin of life research and genomics, such as Freeman Dyson, J. Craig Venter, George Church, Robert Shapiro, Dimitar Sasselov, and Seth Lloyd. Here’s what George Church, Professor of Genetics at Harvard Medical School and Director of the Center for Computational Genetics, had to say about the complexity of the ribosome:

The ribosome, both looking at the past and at the future, is a very significant structure — it’s the most complicated thing that is present in all organisms. Craig does comparative genomics, and you find that almost the only thing that’s in common across all organisms is the ribosome. And it’s recognizable; it’s highly conserved. So the question is, how did that thing come to be? And if I were to be an intelligent design defender, that’s what I would focus on; how did the ribosome come to be?

Craig Venter then suggested that by sequencing the genomes of more organisms, scientists might be able to reconstruct a primitive precursor ribosome, but Church was doubtful:

But isn’t it the case that, if we take all the life forms we have so far, isn’t the minimum for the ribosome about 53 proteins and 3 polynucleotides? And hasn’t that kind of already reached a plateau where adding more genomes doesn’t reduce that number of proteins?

The conversation that ensued reveals the frustration of the participants, who are all convinced naturalists. Interestingly, the term “irreducible complexity” crops up:

VENTER: Below ribosomes, yes: you certainly can’t get below that. But you have to have self-replication.

CHURCH: But that’s what we need to do — otherwise they’ll call it irreducible complexity. If you say you can’t get below a ribosome, we’re in trouble, right? We have to find a ribosome that can do its trick with less than 53 proteins.

VENTER: In the RNA world, you didn’t need ribosomes.

CHURCH: But we need to construct that. Nobody has constructed a ribosome that works well without proteins.

VENTER: Yes.

SHAPIRO: I can only suggest that a ribosome forming spontaneously has about the same probability as an eye forming spontaneously.

CHURCH: It won’t form spontaneously; we’ll do it bit by bit.

SHAPIRO: Both are obviously products of long evolution of preexisting life through the process of trial and error.

CHURCH: But none of us has recreated that any.

SHAPIRO: There must have been much more primitive ways of putting together.

CHURCH: But prove it.

I think it’s fair to conclude that the irreducible complexity (as far as we can tell) of the ribsome constitutes powerful prima facie evidence for an Intelligent Creator of the first life.

The vast amounts of computer-like code stored in DNA (Argument 7)

Let me begin with a quote from agnostic Bill Gates. Nearly twenty years ago, he wrote:

Biological information is the most important information we can discover, because over the next several decades it will revolutionize medicine. Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.
(Gates, The Road Ahead, Penguin: London, Revised, 1996 p. 228)

ID advocate Casey Luskin’s article, A Response to Dr. Dawkins’ “Information Challenge” (Part 1): Specified Complexity Is the Measure of Biological Complexity over at Evolution News and Views, contains a very interesting quote from New Atheist Professor Richard Dawkins:

… [t]he machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like. Apart from differences in jargon, the pages of a molecular biology journal might be interchanged with those of a computer engineering journal.
(River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, pg. 17 (New York: Basic Books, 1995).)

Dawkins himself believes that processes of random mutation and unguided selection generated the information in genes. But is he right? I’d like to conclude with a quote from an article in a creationist journal by CSIRO botanist Alex Williams, titled, Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism (Journal of Creation 21(3) 2007). Some of the material in the article (including the ENCODE findings on junk DNA) remains hotly contested, but when I came across the article eight years ago, I was electrified by this passage:

The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code — like the lines of letters and words on this page… DNA information is overlapping – multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards… No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.

Information that reads both backwards and forwards, and which is multi-layered and multi-dimensional? And meta-information too? As someone who worked for ten years as a computer programmer, I have to say that sounds like the work of an intelligent agent to me.

The argument from the total contingency of the cosmos (i.e. the modal cosmological argument, as opposed to the kalam cosmological argument) (Arguments 3 and 4)

In his original post, Barry Arrington cited as evidence for God the fact that fact that a natural universe cannot logically have a natural cause, as well as the fact that there is something instead of nothing.

Now, I imagine many atheists would have retorted, “Of course a natural universe doesn’t have a natural cause! That’s because it doesn’t have any cause! And as for why there is something rather than nothing, that’s just a brute fact. For anything that exists – God included – you could always ask why it exists.” But these objections miss the underlying point that Barry Arrington was making: the universe is totally contingent. Absolutely nothing about the universe has to be the way it is. The laws could have been different, the initial conditions could have been different, and the entities populating it could have been different. A totally contingent reality, such as our universe, cries out for an explanation.

For those readers who are looking for a good introduction to the argument from the contingency of the cosmos, I would recommend Professor Robert Koons’ Western Theism lecture notes (lectures 2 to 10, and especially lectures 6 to 10), as well as Professor Paul Herrick’s highly readable article, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009).

For those who think they know what’s wrong with the argument, I would recommend Thomist philosopher Edward Feser’s excellent blog post, So you think you understand the cosmological argument? (July 16, 2011). A few highlights:

1. The argument does NOT rest on the premise that “Everything has a cause.”

Lots of people – probably most people who have an opinion on the matter – think that the cosmological argument goes like this: Everything has a cause; so the universe has a cause; so God exists. They then have no trouble at all poking holes in it. If everything has a cause, then what caused God? …

Here’s the funny thing, though. People who attack this argument never tell you where they got it from. They never quote anyone defending it. There’s a reason for that. The reason is that none of the best-known proponents of the cosmological argument in the history of philosophy and theology ever gave this stupid argument. Not Plato, not Aristotle, not al-Ghazali, not Maimonides, not Aquinas, not Duns Scotus, not Leibniz, not Samuel Clarke, not Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, not Mortimer Adler, not William Lane Craig, not Richard Swinburne. And not anyone else either, as far as I know.

2. “What caused God?” is not a serious objection to the argument.

The cosmological argument in its historically most influential versions is not concerned to show that there is a cause of things which just happens not to have a cause. It is not interested in “brute facts” – if it were, then yes, positing the world as the ultimate brute fact might arguably be as defensible as taking God to be… What [the argument] seeks to show is that if there is to be an ultimate explanation of things, then there must be a cause of everything else which not only happens to exist, but which could not even in principle have failed to exist

So, to ask “What caused God?” really amounts to asking “What caused the thing that cannot in principle have had a cause?” … or “What imparted a sufficient reason for existence to that thing which has its sufficient reason for existence within itself and did not derive it from something else?” And none of these questions makes any sense.

3. “Why assume that the universe had a beginning?” is not a serious objection to the argument.

The main reason this is a bad objection …is that most versions of the cosmological argument do not even claim that the universe had a beginning. Aristotelian, Neo-Platonic, Thomistic, and Leibnizian cosmological arguments are all concerned to show that there must be an uncaused cause even if the universe has always existed.

4. “No one has given any reason to think that the First Cause is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, etc.” is not a serious objection to the argument.

Aquinas in fact devotes hundreds of pages across various works to showing that a First Cause of things would have to be all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, and so on and so forth. Other Scholastic writers and modern writers like Leibniz and Samuel Clarke also devote detailed argumentation to establishing that the First Cause would have to have the various divine attributes.

5. “The argument doesn’t prove that Christianity is true” is not a serious objection to the argument.

No one claims that the cosmological argument by itself suffices to show that Christianity is true, that Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, etc. That’s not what it is intended to do.

6. “Science has shown such-and-such” is not a serious objection to (most versions of) the argument.

…[M]ost versions of the cosmological argument do not in any way depend on particular scientific claims. Rather, they start with extremely general considerations that any possible scientific theorizing must itself take for granted – for example, that there is any empirical world at all, or any world of any sort at all.

7. The argument is not a “God of the gaps” argument.

Since the point of the argument is precisely to explain (part of) what science itself must take for granted, it is not the sort of thing that could even in principle be overturned by scientific findings. For the same reason, it is not an attempt to plug some current “gap” in scientific knowledge…

The point is that the kind of criticism one might try to raise against [the argument] is simply not the kind that one might raise in the context of empirical science. It requires instead knowledge of metaphysics and philosophy more generally.

8. Hume and Kant did not have the last word on the argument. Neither has anyone else.

…I don’t think anyone who has studied the issue would deny that Elizabeth Anscombe presented a serious objection to Hume’s claim that something could conceivably come into existence without a cause. Nor is Anscombe by any means the only philosopher to have criticized Hume on this issue.

…Hume’s objection that the cosmological argument commits a fallacy of composition … assumes that the cosmological argument is concerned with explaining why the universe as a whole exists, and that is simply not true of all versions of the argument.

9. What “most philosophers” think about the argument is irrelevant.

The atheist philosopher of religion Quentin Smith maintains that “the great majority of naturalist philosophers have an unjustified belief that naturalism is true and an unjustified belief that theism (or supernaturalism) is false.” For their naturalism typically rests on nothing more than an ill-informed “hand waving dismissal of theism” which ignores “the erudite brilliance of theistic philosophizing today.” Thomists often emphasize that the argument of Aquinas’s On Being and Essence requires only the premise that something or other exists – a stone, a tree, a book, your left shoe, whatever.

Atheist Dan Linford, author of the blog article, How should one respond to the Argument from Contingency?, doesn’t think much of the sophomoric “Who made God?” objection, either:

This fails for a few different reasons.

First, we are talking about the argument from contingency. The argument from contingency argues that all of the contingent facts that there are require a non-contingent explanation. But any sort of non-contingent object that explains all of the contingent facts will not have an explanation for its existence beyond its non-contingency. It could not fail to exist.

Secondly, when we provide a scientific explanation E for some phenomenon x but we do not provide an explanation for E, often, this is not reason to reject E. For example, if we see a trail in a cloud chamber that curves a particular way in a magnetic field, an electron might be the best explanation of our observations, but it would be inappropriate to reject the electron-explanation if we were unable to answer what caused the electron. Likewise, if God is what explains the universe’s existence, yet we cannot explain God’s existence, this does not mean that we should reject theism.
Unfortunately, this last response has become quite popular since it was published in Dawkins’s God Delusion (it had previously appeared in Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not A Christian and in David Hume’s Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion). While it may be able to target some forms of the Cosmological Argument, it is not an appropriate response to the Argument from Contingency.

A better objection, argues Linford, is to ask the theist: “From whence did God’s reasons for creating the universe come?” If the reasons came from within God’s essence, then this means that God had no choice but to create, since God’s essence exists necessarily. But if they didn’t come from within God, then in creating the universe, God may have been acting freely, but He/She was also acting arbitrarily and capriciously. However, this objection has already been answered in Professor Paul Herrick’s highly readable article, Job Opening: Creator of the Universe—A Reply to Keith Parsons (2009):

…[W]e typically account for the free choices of others in terms of the reasons they have for their choices (along with their powers or capacities to implement those reasons), and that when we cite good reasons for a choice, along with adequate powers or capacities, we typically attain a rationally satisfying explanation for the choice, an explanation that makes sense of the choice and ends the questioning (with respect to the choice). Look and see for yourself: This is how we reach explanatory finality with respect to choices; this is how we make choices intelligible.

Now this is important: Unlike scientific explanations, which do cite sufficient conditions, notice that a personalistic explanation — an explanation of a choice — does not cite a causally sufficient condition for the choice. Common sense says that the fact that the father loves his children, that he knows how to make a sled, that he knows that a sled would be good for them, and so on, that does not in itself constitute a sufficient causal condition for his choice to build the sled; these factors do not completely cause him to build a sled, for (at least from the common-sense standpoint) we normally suppose that the father could have had those very same reasons and yet could have chosen not to act on them. Likewise, he could have had those same powers and could have chosen not to put them into effect. This is what we normally mean when we say that under the circumstances, he could have chosen otherwise. And this is why we normally suppose that the reasons and capacities of a chooser are not in themselves sufficient for the choice; we suppose that by themselves they do not guarantee that the choice actually gets made. Indeed, isn’t this why we give the father moral credit for making the choice — because he didn’t have to, that is, under the circumstances, he could have stayed inside to watch TV instead? Again, a personalistic explanation explains a choice not by citing a sufficient condition for the choice, but by making sense of the choice (by making the choice rationally intelligible), and it does this by making sense of the choice in terms of good reasons.

No evidence for God, you say? I can only ask: what is your alternative hypothesis?

Miracles (Argument 8)

Finally, we come to miracles. Because miracles are events that take place in the world, the investigation of miracles certainly falls within the purview of science.

The philosophical arguments against the possibility and/or credibility of miracles, have been dealt with by Dr. Timothy McGrew in his article, Miracles in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, so I won’t waste time on them here.

Professor Moran will want to see good evidence of miracles, so I’ll confine myself to one case: the 17th century Italian saint, Joseph of Cupertino, who was seen levitating well above the ground and even flying for some distance through the air, on literally thousands of occasions, by believers and skeptics alike. The saint was the phenomenon of the 17th century. Those who are curious might like to have a look at his biography by D. Bernini (Vita Del Giuseppe da Copertino, 1752, Roma: Ludovico Tinassi and Girolamo Mainardi). The philosopher David Hume, who was notoriously skeptical of miracle claims, never even mentions St. Joseph of Cupertino in his writings. Funny, that.

The evidence for St. Joseph’s flights is handily summarized in an article, The flying saint (The Messenger of Saint Anthony, January 2003), by Renzo Allegri.

The earthly existence of Friar Joseph of Cupertino was rich in charismatic gifts. However, the phenomenon which attracted the most attention occurred during his disconcerting ecstasies. Chronicles recount, as we have already said, that he need only hear the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint before going into an ecstasy. He used to let out a wail and float in the air, remaining suspended between heaven and earth for hours. An inadmissible phenomenon for our modern mentality.

“To doubt is understandable,” Fr. Giulio Berettoni, rector of the Shrine of St. Joseph of Cupertino in Osimo tells me “but it isn’t justifiable. If we take a serious look at the saint’s life from a historical point of view, then we see that we cannot question his ecstasies. There are numerous witness accounts. They began to be documented in 1628, and this continued until Joseph’s death in 1663, i.e. for 35 years. In certain periods, the phenomenon is recorded to have taken place more than once a day. It has been calculated that Joseph’s ‘ecstatic flights’ took place at least 1,000 to 1,500 times in his lifetime, perhaps even more, and that they were witnessed by thousands of people. They were the phenomenon of the century. They were so sensational and so public that they attracted attention from curious people from all walks of life, Italians and foreigners, believers and unbelievers, simple folk, but also scholars, scientists, priests, bishops and cardinals. They continued to occur in every situation, in whatever church in which the saint prayed or celebrated Mass. It is impossible to doubt such a sensational and public phenomenon which repeated itself over time. It is also worth noting that these events occurred in the seventeenth century, the time of the Inquisition. Amazing events, miracles and healings were labelled magic and the protagonists ended up undergoing a trial by the civil and religious Inquisition. In fact, St. Joseph of Cupertino underwent this very fate because of his ecstasies. But he was subjected to various trials without ever being condemned; final proof that these are sensational events, but also real, extraordinary and concrete facts.” (Emphases mine – VJT.)

In view of the fact that miracle claims can be found in many different religions, it would be imprudent to cite St. Joseph’s levitations and flights in support of any one particular religion. But miracles like this, which could be prompted by St. Joseph’s hearing – the name of Jesus, of the Virgin Mary, or of a saint – certainly constitute evidence for God’s existence. Professor Moran may or may not be persuaded by such evidence, but evidence it certainly is. In the meantime, he might like to have a look at an article by Dr. Michael Grosso, entitled, Hume’s Syndrome: Irrational Resistance to the Paranormal (Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 22, No. 4, pp. 549–556, 2008).

Finally, I should mention the Resurrection of Jesus, of which former atheist Anthony Flew (who nevcer accepted Christianity) declared in 2004: “The evidence for the resurrection is better than for claimed miracles in any other religion. It’s outstandingly different in quality and quantity, I think, from
the evidence offered for the occurrence of most other supposedly miraculous events.” He then adds that he thinks this evidence can be discredited, since we lack “evidence from anyone who was in Jerusalem at the time, who witnessed one of the allegedly miraculous events, and recorded his or her testimony immediately after the occurrence of that allegedly miraculous event.” Nevertheless, even Flew acknowledges that there is evidence for this miraculous event – he just doesn’t happen to think it’s very powerful evidence.

The moral sense

Atheists are fond of claiming that we don’t need God in order to be moral, because we have an independent guide: the Golden Rule. But although the Golden Rile allows us to distinguish good from evil in most situations, it cannot define the meaning of good and evil. For the Rule itself can only bind us if there are certain things which are objectively good for us as human beings – for instance, food, knowledge and companionship. In the absence of objective goods, the Rule degenerates into a pathetic exhortation to respect people’s subjective preferences – which invites the obvious riposte, “Why should I?” There is no reason why I should respect an individual’s subjective preferences – after all, we don’t give cocaine to drug addicts. Natural law is the only sensible foundation on which an atheist can build morality. But such an ethic only works if we treat Nature Herself as normative. The Golden Rule, taken by itself, cannot tell me whether it is morally permissible for me to change my nature by transforming myself into, say, a hyper-intelligent, hyper-sentient cyborg who is nonetheless devoid of empathy (and hence no longer bound by the Golden Rule). Only if we take as a given the fact that this is God’s world, can we view our natural ends as ethically normative, and as objective goods which we tamper with at our peril. In other words, we need to foster belief in God in order to cultivate true respect for Nature.

My subjective self-awareness

The point I’d like to make here is that from a purely naturalistic standpoint, the behavior which promotes survival in humans and other animals could have evolved, regardless of whether they were sentient or not. Currently, there is no conclusive scientific evidence showing that any non-human animals are conscious – a point which is explicitly acknowledged by Marian Stamp Dawkins, Professor of Animal Behavior and Mary Snow Fellow in Biological Sciences, Somerville College, Oxford University. Marian Dawkins is herself sympathetic to the view that a large number of animals may be conscious. Nevertheless, she writes:

“[F]rom a scientific view, we understand so little about animal consciousness (and indeed our own consciousness) that to make the claim that we do understand it, and that we now know which animals experience emotions, may not be the best way to make the case for animal welfare. Anthropomorphism (seeing animals as just like humans) and anecdote were assuming a place in the study of animal consciousness that, it seemed to me, leaves the whole area very vulnerable to being completely demolished by logical argument…

It is, perhaps, not a comfortable conclusion to come to that the only scientific view of consciousness is that we don’t understand how it arises, nor do we know for certain which animals are conscious.
(Marian Stamp Dawkins, Professor of Animal Behavior and Mary Snow Fellow in Biological Sciences, Somerville College, Oxford University, writing in an online article entitled, Convincing the Unconvinced That Animal Welfare Matters, The Huffington Post, 8 June 2012.)

In her recently published book, Why Animals Matter: Animal consciousness, animal welfare, and human well-being (Oxford University Press, 2012), Professor Dawkins discusses the different issues relating to animal consciousness. Throughout the discussion, she maintains a skeptical outlook, because the scientific evidence is “indirect” (p. 111) and that “there is no proof either way about animal consciousness and that it does not serve animals well to claim that there is.” (p. 112). Summarizing the data surveyed, she writes:

The mystery of consciousness remains. The explanatory gap is as wide as ever and all the wanting in the world will not take us across it. Animals and plants can ‘want’ very effectively with never a hint of consciousness, as we can see with a tree wanting to grow in a particular direction. Preference tests, particularly those that provide evidence that animals are prepared to pay ‘costs’ to get what they want, are perhaps the closest we can get to what animals are feeling, but they are not a magic entry into consciousness. They do not solve the hard problem for us because everything that animals do when they make choices or show preferences or even ‘work’ to get what they want could be done without conscious experience at all. We have seen (Chapters 4 and 5) just how much we humans do unconsciously and how powerful our unconscious minds are in making decisions and even in having emotions. What is good enough for us may well be good enough for other species.

… The similarity between the behavioral responses of animals and humans to such drugs make it tempting to assume that because the behavior is similar, the conscious experiences must be similar too. Of course they may be, but there is no more ‘must’ about it than in the claim that animals ‘must’ consciously experience thirst before they drink or ‘must’ consciously experience hunger while they are searching for food. They may well do so, as we saw in Chapter 8. But there is no must about it. Animal bodies have evolved by natural selection to restore imbalances of food and water and to repair wounds and other kinds of damage. Neither food deprivation nor water deprivation, nor the symptoms of inflamed joints, are necessarily accompanied by any conscious experiences at all, although they may be. Just as our wounds heal up without any conscious intention on our part and we like certain foods without knowing why, so other animals, too, have a variety of mechanisms, for repairing and restoring their bodies to proper working order. Preference and choice and ‘what animals want’ are part of those mechanisms. They may well be accompanied by conscious experiences. But then again, they may not be. Once again, our path to finding out the answer is blocked by the implacable, infuriating obstacle known as the hard problem.” (pp. 171-174)

Professor Marian Dawkins concludes that since at the present time, scientists don’t know which (if any) animals are conscious, it is better for animal welfare advocates to refuse to commit themselves on the question of which animals are conscious: “… it is much, much better for animals if we remain skeptical and agnostic [about consciousness] … Militantly agnostic if necessary, because this keeps alive the possibility that a large number of species have some sort of conscious experiences … For all we know, many animals, not just the clever ones and not just the overtly emotional ones, also have conscious experiences.” (p. 177)

Viewed from a naturalistic perspective, the existence of consciousness is a surprising fact – one which we have no reason to expect. From a theistic perspective, on the other hand, it makes perfect sense: one would expect a personal Creator to make beings who were capable of knowing and loving their Creator, if He were going to make a world at all. Since each of us possesses not only awareness but also subjective self-awareness, we can apply apply Bayesian logic and deduce that the existence of God is highly probable, unless it can be shown that God’s existence has a very low a priori probability, in the first place. Now, if a skeptic wants to argue that, then they are welcome to do so, but in that case, the onus is on them to put forward a case against God.

Summary

In this post, we have looked at several lines of argument which point to the conclusion that God exists. Leading scientific and philosophical atheists have acknowledged that these arguments count as evidence, even if they remain unpersuaded by this evidence. I can only conclude that Professor Moran’s recent claim that there is absolutely no evidence for God or the supernatural flies in the face of what intelligent, open-minded atheists have to say on the subject. Professor Moran is obviously an intelligent man, but I wonder if he is as open-minded as he claims to be.

What do readers think? Is there any evidence for God?

Comments
Hi Box,
Are there regularities “among mass and energy and time and space and forces and so on” prior to the coming into existence of “mass and energy and time and space and forces and so on”? IOW are there physical laws prior to the big bang?
This is the confusion that StephenB was suffering. I would say this: For realists (like me, and I assume you too), mass and energy and time and space and so on exist independently of our thinking about them. The regularities among these physical things also exist in the world outside of our minds, but obviously only when those physical things themselves exist. Our understanding of those regularities - these "Laws" that we write about, think about, and discuss - are linguistic descriptions of these regularities, rather than things that exist in the world per se. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 24, 2015
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RDFish: Physical laws are descriptions of the regularities we observe among mass and energy and time and space and forces and so on.
Are there regularities "among mass and energy and time and space and forces and so on" prior to the coming into existence of "mass and energy and time and space and forces and so on"? IOW are there physical laws prior to the big bang?Box
February 24, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
If a thing is finite, it is limited. If it is limited, it is contingent on that which it is limited by. The universe is finite (as you said), therefore it is contingent.
We disagree. You are using "limit" as a transitive verb - something must limit something else. In contrast, I consider something's finiteness to be simply a property of the thing itself.
There’s no way to empirically prove that you are a ‘self’.
Wow, we do indeed agree on that !
If a thing changes it size and shape, some reason must be given for that. Something is changing it.
Again I disagree - it could simply be the things nature to change size and shape, and not require anything else to mold it.
With the universe, if it changes size, shape or even what it is comprised of, these are all contingent factors.
Again I disagree. The universe changes size because of what it is, not because somebody is doing something to it.
What is the universe? How do we describe it? If we describe it by what it is today, that would be different than what it will be in a million years. So, its identity actually changes.
Well, this is just an old philosophical problem of identity. If you replace a plank of a rowboat, is it still the same boat? What about if you replace another, and another... until every piece of the boat is replaced. Still the same boat? (hint: there is no right or wrong answer)
Sure, you can claim that the universe explains itself, is non-contingent and necessary. But then you have to show it.
Can't of course - no more than you can show that some conscious being exists outside of spacetime.
But I’m appealing to a generally understood notion that it’s possible that various factors could have been different. That’s how we understand fine-tuning arguments and how we look at probabilities.
I'm saying that generally understood notions are based on our general experience and can be wildly wrong when applied to things utterly outside of our experience - like the creation of all that exists. Fine-tuning arguments are interesting in terms of providing something that needs to be explained, but they are not arguments for any particular explanation. It is utterly impossible to say what the probability is of the universe being the way it is, because (1) we have only one data point, and (2) we have no idea how that data point came to be.
So, if the universe formed, it once was one size and shape, and then another. If the universe was smaller, where did the space come from for it to expand? If there was nothing beyond the univese, then the universe could not expand – since it would require more space to expand.
You still don't understand modern cosmology. Just do some reading and you'll see why you are conceptualizing this wrong. I know it's hard to wrap your head around it, but there are a lot of good non-technical treatments that will introduce you to the concepts. The universe did NOT expand into surrounding space - nothing surrounds the universe, not even "nothingness".
RDF: Alternatively, if you claim that God could not potentially be different, I could just as easily deny that: God might have been the sort of thing that was incapable of creating universes, for example. That would make God contingent too. SA: Right, but then we’d have two unexplained things and not just one. We’d have a universe which would not be explained by God, and we’d have God with limited powers – and it would be unexplained why God had those limits.
Nope, just one explained thing instead of two. Instead of a necessary God and a contingent universe, we'd just have a necessary universe. Don't get me wrong - that's still not any sort of explanation. I'm just saying it's better than hypothesizing a god who then went on create a universe.
It could be eternal or appear spontaneously. But if it was eternal, then the universe would not be moving towards a future state. The future state would have already arrived.
There are certainly paradoxes and problems associated with an eternal past, but also with a finite past (what happened before then? what would "before then" mean? how could something be caused if the cause could not precede the effect? and so on). We have no answers for any of these questions, even though people have been at it for thousands of years.
There are several arguments that can give good support for the existence of God and others that show why a godless universe is unreasonable.
We disagree.
In fact, I think the significant questions you raise about the accuracy and value of science’s ability to truly describe reality, tell us that science alone is not sufficient for an understanding even of what goes on within the universe- much less for the origin of it.
And here we agree 100%! Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 24, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: Here’s the part you skipped again, and it shows why you are wrong: A) Mass/energy was created or destroyed B) Mass/energy conservation was violated These two sentences mean the exact same thing. Therefore, if (A) is true then (B) is true. B cannot be false if A is true. SB: I didn’t skip it, RD. You are using the wrong tense with the word “was.”
Hahahahahaha! That is truly hysterical, even for you. Clintonesque, one might say. Here you go: A) Mass/energy is created or destroyed B) Mass/energy conservation is violated These two sentences mean the exact same thing. Therefore, if (A) is true then (B) is true. B cannot be false if A is true. All right, StephenB, let me try yet again (one of the reasons I debate here is to learn new ways of breaking through entrenched problems that people have in their thinking). My point all along has been that the concepts we use to understand nature - time, space, matter, energy, forces, laws, causality, temporal ordering, locality, realism, and so on - apply in ordinary situations; physicists call this the "classical" realm. When we venture beyond that realm into situations where things are very extraordinary - very large, very small, very energetic, very fast, very massive, or even a situation where there is no time or space or mass or energy at all - these concepts may no longer make sense, and no longer explain and predict what we observe. You have rejected this point, ridiculing it by saying that what I consider extraordinary is actually ordinary, or that these concepts break down only because I don't approve of them, and so on. You then attempted (who knows why) to deny that if mass/energy was created, that would represent a violation of what we cann mass/energy conservation. That conservation would be violated by the creation of mass/energy is true simply by virtue of what "mass/energy conservation" means, however, you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge this, pretending instead that the creation of mass/energy could occur at the beginning of the unvierse but still not be considered a violation of conservation, because the law was not enacted yet (!). For example, you say:
What makes you think that there was a law of conservation to be violated when mass/energy was created? Are you suggesting that the law of conservation is eternal? If not, where would it come from if not a creator?
Since God had not yet written this law into the celestial Law Book, you claim, the creation of mass/energy should not be considered a violation of the law. This gave a terrific insight into your bizarre view of how science works, and I attempted to help you see your error. Now, you have evolved on the matter and have learned to rephrase your objection significantly:
I have explained to you at least five times that the definition of the law of conservation is irrelevant in any situation where matter/energy does not exist.
This of course is obviously true - if there is no mass/energy, then it can't be conserved. What you still fail to understand is that the moment mass/energy is created, it represents a violation of mass/energy conservation - by virtue of the definition of "mass/energy conservation", whether or not the Creator has "put the law into effect". If you feel like you can't give in on this point, let's let it drop - the fair reader here will realize that your notion of a physical law not existing until a Creator decides to enact it is an extremely unscientific concept, and I'm fine with letting it go at that. What remains is the important point: Just as you realize that mass/energy conservation - one of the most fundamental laws of physics - does not apply in the extraordinary circumstance mass/energy existed, causality may not apply in the extraordinary circumstance before time existed. Although you refuse to admit it, there are already a number of extraordinary situations where causality as we understand it does not appear to apply - in various quantum phenomena. All of this demonstrates that your attempt to prove the existence of a divine First Cause by trying to apply classical notions of causality to a situation where it does not apply is futile. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 24, 2015
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RDFish
...in any case we now agree that something can be finite with or without physical boundaries, and that “finite” means “limited”.
We don't agree on the point. If a thing is finite, it is limited. If it is limited, it is contingent on that which it is limited by. The universe is finite (as you said), therefore it is contingent.
I have been different shapes and sizes in my life, but always the same person. All sorts of things change size and shape and not identity of course. I really don’t know what you mean by this.
Your identity is not a good example because you are self-aware that you are a person. There's no way to empirically prove that you are a 'self'. But with the universe we're talking about a continuum. If a thing changes it size and shape, some reason must be given for that. Something is changing it. The thing is contingent on whatever changed its size and shape. Additionally, if a thing can change its size and shape, it has the potential to no longer be what it is. Over an infinite amount of time, the sun would change its size and shape and no longer be the sun. This is impermanence - so the sun cannot be a necessary being, something else is necessary for the sun to be the sun (the conditions in the universe now that make it the sun). With the universe, if it changes size, shape or even what it is comprised of, these are all contingent factors. What is the universe? How do we describe it? If we describe it by what it is today, that would be different than what it will be in a million years. So, its identity actually changes. Something has to explain this. If the universe could change (given an infinite amount of time) to become something else (or disappear), then it would no longer exist. A non-contingent entity would not have any dependencies on its own existence, thus it is self-existing and self-explaining. It is necessary and cannot disappear.
My point is that if you can claim that there is a god that is necessary and self-explanatory, then I can claim that the universe itself has these properties, eliminating the need for your superfluous hypothesis.
Sure, you can claim that the universe explains itself, is non-contingent and necessary. But then you have to show it. As I said, I can claim my balloon is self-explanatory, but then someone observes that the balloon is dependent on material, physical forces and it's shape and capabilities. The balloon does not explain itself. The universe is the same. It is dependent on other things to be what it is. A sad example, like the World Trade Towers in New York. They were one size and shape, now they are another. You could say "they still have the same identity". But they're rubble now - they don't exist. Or something like Lake Manly in Nevada. At one time it was a lake. It had an identity. Now, however, it evaporated and it doesn't exist. So, it could not have been a self-explained being. It was contingent.
Just because you can imagine something doesn’t mean it is possible. Perhaps there was only one way for the universe to form.
The fact that the universe 'formed' means that it once was one thing, and now it is another. True, we could say "every single thing on earth and in the universe today had to be exactly the way it is today". There's no way to falsify that. But I'm appealing to a generally understood notion that it's possible that various factors could have been different. That's how we understand fine-tuning arguments and how we look at probabilities. So, if the universe formed, it once was one size and shape, and then another. If the universe was smaller, where did the space come from for it to expand? If there was nothing beyond the univese, then the universe could not expand - since it would require more space to expand. If the universe 'expanded into nothingness' - or converted nothing to space from the singularity until now, then the 'nothing' had the capability of making space for the universe. Thus, the nothing wasn't nothing. It had capabilities. If the universe got bigger, then it was capable of getting bigger. If the univese changes shape and size, what possible shapes and sizes could it have? What determines that? Whatever it is are conditions upon which the universe is dependent.
Alternatively, if you claim that God could not potentially be different, I could just as easily deny that: God might have been the sort of thing that was incapable of creating universes, for example. That would make God contingent too.
Right, but then we'd have two unexplained things and not just one. We'd have a universe which would not be explained by God, and we'd have God with limited powers - and it would be unexplained why God had those limits. What caused God to be contingent on that limitation? If our answers are merely, "that's the way it is" - yes, that could be, but it's more explanatory to say that God possesses all the powers to create the universe, and the universe is contingent on the conditions that God created. Yes, God remains unexplained, but that's the nature of the first cause. It contains the source of everything that follows.
Why could it not be eternal? Or why could it not appear spontaneously?
It could be eternal or appear spontaneously. But if it was eternal, then the universe would not be moving towards a future state. The future state would have already arrived.
First, we see things that happen at certain moments without any reason at all – beta-decay of a radioactive nucleus, for example, or the spontaneous creation of virtual particles.
Yes, but those things are dependent on certain conditions. Those conditions have to exist before whatever thing happens.
Second, how do you know that the properties of the universe could have been different?
As above, we could say "everything is exactly the way it had to be", but when we see change and movement, we project the future and look at possibilities. We then imagine we can do the same with the past. The universe could have had only one possible set of properties - the properties it actually has. However, this argument seems less reasonable if the properties of the universe change over time, for various reasons. We could say "the universe could only have this finite number of stars that it has today". But we know that stars go supernova and are lost, so it's not reasonable to suggest that the universe has to be what it is today.
I don’t know what it means to be “existence itself”, since nothing in our experience is that.
We understand things that exist and things that go out of existence. So, if we explain that the universe came from a source of existence that is Being in its fullest degree (without flaw or loss of any kind), then that's an explanation of the various kinds of being we observe.
Secondly, if you assert that the universe could have been different, then whatever it is you are referring to could have been different too (for example, maybe it wouldn’t want to create a universe).
Yes, but as above - then we'd have to explain why that source had that limit. The source would then be contingent on something else and we'd have a continued regress of causes. To stop an infinite regress, a source for the universe is the first cause, not dependent on any other, which has all the power and being (fullness of both) to create a universe.
In the end, this sort of speculation is like playing tennis without a net. It seems eminently clear that nobody has any idea at all about why the universe exists as it does, or what “preceded” it – and what it could possibly even mean for something to precede time itself.
I kind of agree, but I just don't think it's as absolute as you present it. I don't think it's true that we have no idea at all. There are several arguments that can give good support for the existence of God and others that show why a godless universe is unreasonable. Just because we can't use empirical science to arrive at answers doesn't mean we can't use other tools. In fact, I think the significant questions you raise about the accuracy and value of science's ability to truly describe reality, tell us that science alone is not sufficient for an understanding even of what goes on within the universe- much less for the origin of it.Silver Asiatic
February 24, 2015
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RDFish
Here’s the part you skipped again, and it shows why you are wrong: A) Mass/energy was created or destroyed B) Mass/energy conservation was violated These two sentences mean the exact same thing. Therefore, if (A) is true then (B) is true. B cannot be false if A is true.
I didn't skip it, RD. You are using the wrong tense with the word "was." The law of conservation does not say mass/energy "was not" created, which would be stupid beyond belief. Let me explain your confusion. You think that since the law states that matter/energy cannot now be created or destroyed it is also committed to the idea that matter/energy could never have been created. That doesn't follow at all. If that was the case, then the law of conservation would rule out big bang cosmology. Do you understand that matter/energy did not always exist (or so says the science)? Do you understand that if matter had not been created or brought into existence, there would be no law of conservation or no matter to conserve? Do you understand that the law of conservation is totally dependent on the fact that matter was, in fact, brought into existence? Do you understand that if there is no matter/energy, there can be no law to regulate matter energy? Do you understand that to say that a system is isolated is not to say that an isolated system cannot be created?StephenB
February 24, 2015
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RDFish SB: There was no mass/energy prior to the origin of matter/energy. RDFish
We can’t actually say anything was prior to the origin of mass/energy, because it appears that time itself began at the same event.
Reread my statement: There was no mass/energy "prior" to the origin of matter/energy. I didn't say "prior in time." I said "prior," Do you know the difference between logically prior and chronologically prior? Do you understand that being logically prior has nothing at all to do with time? It isn't as if this is the first time I have explained this to you. If you don't understand that there was no mass/energy prior to the origin of mass/energy, then there is truly something wrong with your mind. Either that, or you will say and do anything in a futile attempt to avoid refutation. ----------------------------------------------------------
It is the regularity that exists in nature, not the law per se!
Don't tell it to me. Tell it to yourself. Does the regularity really exist in nature, as you are saying now, or is it a "concept," as you claimed a moment earlier:
I said conservation can’t be violated if no mass/energy exists because the concept of conservation obviously does not apply in that situation.
Do you understand that your conception of a law is a different thing than its manifestation and activity in nature? I don't think you do. Your irrational subjectivism is causing you to make the silliest mistakes. Just trust me on this one: Matter and energy did not exist prior to the existence matter and energy. If you can just get your head around that simple fact (and admit it) I can take you through the remaining steps. Otherwise, you will continue to sink in intellectual quicksand. -----------------------------------------------------
But if mass/energy was created at some point, that would be – BY DEFINITION – a violation of conservation.
Good heavens, you really are struggling aren't you? No, RD, it would not be a violation. The definition of the law of conservation only applies when matter/energy exists.
You keep dodging this question, because you can’t answer it without admitting you’re wrong. Please answer it or concede:
You are becoming delusional. I have explained to you at least five times that the definition of the law of conservation is irrelevant in any situation where matter/energy does not exist. There is no law of conservation if there is no matter/energy to conserve. Get it?StephenB
February 24, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
Now reread the words you just wrote (which are repetitions of my words, but that’s OK)…”Mass/energy conservation doesn’t apply to situations where there is no mass/energy.”
Huh? Where did you say that? You said conservation wasn't violated if mass/energy was created because the law didn't exist yet. I said conservation can't be violated if no mass/energy exists because the concept of conservation obviously does not apply in that situation. I'm correct, and you're confused.
There was no mass/energy prior to the origin of matter/energy.
We can't actually say anything was prior to the origin of mass/energy, because it appears that time itself began at the same event.
Since there was no mass/energy prior to the origin of the matter/energy, there was no law of conservation prior to the origin of matter/energy.
You keep talking about the law existing at one time or another, and I have explained over and over that this is nonsense. The law is an induction that human scientists made in the 19th century, Stephen!!! It makes no sense to ask of the law existed before then, or if it "exists" at all. You can only ask if the law was violated or not, not if the law itself existed! This is your problem - you are reifying the "law" as though it was something that was brought into existence, when in fact it is nothing but a description of a regularity in nature that was noticed by human beings! It is the regularity that exists in nature, not the law per se!
Since there was no law of conservation to be violated prior to the existence of matter/energy,...
No, it's not that there wasn't a law - it was that the law of conservation did not apply, because it makes no sense to conserve what doesn't exist! But if mass/energy was created at some point, that would be - BY DEFINITION - a violation of conservation. You keep dodging this question, because you can't answer it without admitting you're wrong. Please answer it or concede:
Here’s the part you skipped again, and it shows why you are wrong: A) Mass/energy was created or destroyed B) Mass/energy conservation was violated These two sentences mean the exact same thing. Therefore, if (A) is true then (B) is true. B cannot be false if A is true. Ok, so how do you reply, Stephen? If those two sentences do not mean the exact same thing, then tell us what the difference in meaning is. And if they do mean the exact same thing (and of course they do, as any check of what “mass/energy conservation” means will tell you), then how can one of them be true and the other one be false (it can’t).
Come on, don't dodge this for the third time. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 23, 2015
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RDFish
If you are saying that mass/energy conservation doesn’t apply to situations where there is no mass/energy, then of course we agree,
........ Now reread the words you just wrote (which are repetitions of my words, but that's OK)..."Mass/energy conservation doesn't apply to situations where there is no mass/energy." Now follow along very carefully. There was no mass/energy prior to the origin of matter/energy. Since there was no mass/energy prior to the origin of the matter/energy, there was no law of conservation prior to the origin of matter/energy. Since there was no law of conservation prior to the origin of matter/energy, there was no law of conservation to be violated prior to the origin of matter/energy. Since there was no law of conservation to be violated prior to the existence of matter/energy, it would be impossible to violate the law of conservation prior to the origin of matter/energy. Since it is impossible to violate the law of conservation of matter/energy prior to the origin of matter/energy, it would only be possible to violate the law of conservation after matter/energy began to exist. Since it is only possible to violate the law of conservation after matter/energy began to exist, it is not possible to violate the law of conservation by creating mass/energy. Do you understand now?StephenB
February 23, 2015
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Hi Box,
Assuming that both space and time began at the big bang, as you pointed out, is it reasonable to assume that ‘nature’ and ‘natural law’ also began at the big bang?
Depends what you mean by "nature" and "natural law" I suppose. Definition please? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 23, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
I understand that cosmologists use the term ‘boundary’ to speak of a specific thing, like an ‘edge’. But I’m using the term in the sense of ‘limit’.
From all the other things you said about what is beyond the universe, etc., I would say that you came to this realization recently, but in any case we now agree that something can be finite with or without physical boundaries, and that "finite" means "limited".
But I’m just using a standard definition: “dependent for existence on something”.
Ok, that's clear. I was confused because you said things like
- a beginning - whatever was in that singularity - its movement and expansion over time - the elements that comprise the universe This is what it means to be contingent.
If the universe has a specific size or shape, then it is dependent upon those factors to be what it is.
I have been different shapes and sizes in my life, but always the same person. All sorts of things change size and shape and not identity of course. I really don't know what you mean by this.
It does not explain itself. It does not cause its own existence. To do that, it would have to exist before the universe existed.
I don't think either one of us is clear about the requirements for self-explanation. My point is that if you can claim that there is a god that is necessary and self-explanatory, then I can claim that the universe itself has these properties, eliminating the need for your superfluous hypothesis.
The universe could potentially be other sizes and shapes.
You don't know that. Just because you can imagine something doesn't mean it is possible. Perhaps there was only one way for the universe to form. Alternatively, if you claim that God could not potentially be different, I could just as easily deny that: God might have been the sort of thing that was incapable of creating universes, for example. That would make God contingent too.
What the universe is, therefore, is dependent on its specific size and shape – that needs to be explained.
We would love to explain how the universe came to exist, and why it is the way it is. Unfortunately, nobody knows.
RDF: What I am arguing is that one could just treat the singularity – everything that it consists of, every property that it has – as being necessary, not dependent upon anything else. SA: For the singularity to be what it was, it was dependent on certain things.
How do you know that? Why could it not be eternal? Or why could it not appear spontaneously?
RDF: You have provided no reason why this is any less justified than positing some conscious being that is necessary and proceeds to create this singularity. Why not just start with the singularity instead? SA: You could start with the singularity, but the singularity possesses certain characteristics to various degrees, more or less. You could just say “that’s the way it is” but that does not explain why the singularity had certain properties to various degrees, or how old it is and why the big bang occurred at a certain moment (if the singularity was infinite then the big bang would have occurred an infinte amount of time ago — with an infinite expansion of the universe, etc.)
First, we see things that happen at certain moments without any reason at all - beta-decay of a radioactive nucleus, for example, or the spontaneous creation of virtual particles. Second, how do you know that the properties of the universe could have been different?
A better explanation is that there is a necessary being that possesses existence and is non-contingent. That way, properties and degrees of existence are not received by anything else. That being is existence itself, and therefore is the first cause of all the rest of the sequence of causes.
I don't know what it means to be "existence itself", since nothing in our experience is that. Secondly, if you assert that the universe could have been different, then whatever it is you are referring to could have been different too (for example, maybe it wouldn't want to create a universe).
We have no empirically justified beliefs regarding how the universe came to exist. Empiricism requires a physical universe. Therefore it cannot be the right tool to use in order to understand the origin (that which preceded) the physical universe.
I actually agree with this entirely. None of our concepts from the word we inhabit likely apply - including time and causality. In the end, this sort of speculation is like playing tennis without a net. It seems eminently clear that nobody has any idea at all about why the universe exists as it does, or what "preceded" it - and what it could possibly even mean for something to precede time itself. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 23, 2015
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RDFish, Assuming that both space and time began at the big bang, as you pointed out, is it reasonable to assume that 'nature' and 'natural law' also began at the big bang?Box
February 23, 2015
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RDFish
There is nothing past the boundary of the Earth’s surface,
We're using terminology differently. I understand that cosmologists use the term 'boundary' to speak of a specific thing, like an 'edge'. But I'm using the term in the sense of 'limit'. So, it would not be correct to say that 'there is nothing past the limit of the Earth's surface'. That's the nature of a finite thing versus something infinite. There is a limit in the one case.
If all you mean by “contingent” is that it has a specific shape and size, then we can agree that the universe is contingent.
No, I explained what I meant by contingent several times. You could look up the meaning of the term if you'd like. But I'm just using a standard definition: "dependent for existence on something". As I've said many times, a non-contingent thing explains itself. That's why it is necessary. It alone is necessary for anything else to exist. A first cause is non-contingent because it 'is not dependent on any other causes or things'.
But that is not all you mean. You also mean that it is dependent upon something else. But the property of being dependent is not tied to having a specific size and shape; something could have some particular size and shape and still be necessary.
If the universe has a specific size or shape, then it is dependent upon those factors to be what it is. It does not explain itself. It does not cause its own existence. To do that, it would have to exist before the universe existed. The universe could potentially be other sizes and shapes. What the universe is, therefore, is dependent on its specific size and shape - that needs to be explained.
Perhaps you need to provide a single definition for “contingent” so we can know what we’re talking about.
Ok, I'm talking about the difference between a necessary being and a contingent being. What I mean by contingent is that it is dependent or conditional on something else for its existence. A contingent being cannot be necessary because it could be something else - it is subject to a beginning and to change. It is subject to various possibilities, one of which is that it is destroyed and does not exist. By contingent being I mean a being that is dependent on something else for its existence - so the explanation for its existence comes from something else. The reason for its existence is not contained by the thing itself. It is contingent (dependent, conditional) upon other things.
What I am arguing is that one could just treat the singularity – everything that it consists of, every property that it has – as being necessary, not dependent upon anything else.
For the singularity to be what it was, it was dependent on certain things. If it was the beginning of the universe, then something preceded the beginning.
You have provided no reason why this is any less justified than positing some conscious being that is necessary and proceeds to create this singularity. Why not just start with the singularity instead?
You could start with the singularity, but the singularity possesses certain characteristics to various degrees, more or less. You could just say "that's the way it is" but that does not explain why the singularity had certain properties to various degrees, or how old it is and why the big bang occurred at a certain moment (if the singularity was infinite then the big bang would have occurred an infinte amount of time ago -- with an infinite expansion of the universe, etc.) A better explanation is that there is a necessary being that possesses existence and is non-contingent. That way, properties and degrees of existence are not received by anything else. That being is existence itself, and therefore is the first cause of all the rest of the sequence of causes.
We have no empirically justified beliefs regarding how the universe came to exist.
Empiricism requires a physical universe. Therefore it cannot be the right tool to use in order to understand the origin (that which preceded) the physical universe.Silver Asiatic
February 23, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic, I'm afraid that Kreeft's analogy to a locomotive is 100 years out of date, and anything but clear. We've learned a great deal about physics since the revolution at the beginning of the 20th century. Our common sense notions of space, time, temporal order, simultaneity, locality, realism and causality have all been upended by empirically confirmed discoveries over the past century. Religious imagery was authored when we had very little understanding of the world, and is out of date. Kreeft's locomotive needs to be replaced with matter waves, singularities, quantum uncertainty, wave-particle duality, non-local interactions, spontaneous causeless creation of virtual particles, and other non-intuitive phenomena that rule what happens in extraordinary situations like black holes, speeding photons, or the singularity at the beginning of our universe. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 23, 2015
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Hi Box,
Is there ‘nature’ prior to the coming into existence of the universe?
I think it is obvious that nobody knows anything about what was "prior" to the existence of the universe, nor even if it makes sense to talk about anything prior to it, since it seems that both space and time began at the big bang. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 23, 2015
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StephenB @ 140 Thanks - and great quote by Peter Kreeft. That's very clear.Silver Asiatic
February 23, 2015
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RDFish: A law of nature is a description of a regularity observed in nature.
Is there 'nature' prior to the coming into existence of the universe?Box
February 23, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: Don’t you see that if mass/energy is created or destroyed in some situation, then simply by definition that means that it is not being conserved? SB: If the “situation” is that the law doesn’t exist, then it can’t be violated. If the situation is that the law does exist, then it can be violated.
A law of nature is a description of a regularity observed in nature. A "situation" is what is actually happening in nature. The conservation law says that there is no situation in which mass/energy is created. If we find that mass/energy was created in some situation, then our conservation law was wrong, because there was some situation in which mass/energy did hold. Most of our scientific laws have turned out this way. One of Newton's laws said that force = mass x acceleration in all situations. Einstein found situations in which this was not true, so Newton's law was violated. Now, did Newton's law "exist" in nature at any time? No - it was just Newton's generalization that he thought would always hold, and it didn't. Here's the part you skipped again, and it shows why you are wrong: A) Mass/energy was created or destroyed B) Mass/energy conservation was violated These two sentences mean the exact same thing. Therefore, if (A) is true then (B) is true. B cannot be false if A is true. Ok, so how do you reply, Stephen? If those two sentences do not mean the exact same thing, then tell us what the difference in meaning is. And if they do mean the exact same thing (and of course they do, as any check of what "mass/energy conservation" means will tell you), then how can one of them be true and the other one be false (it can't).
It must be that you ideology is driving your confusion. Either that, or you are having some kind of mental block.
A) Mass/energy was created or destroyed B) Mass/energy conservation was violated These two sentences mean the exact same thing. You are the one who is confused, of course. I would say it was your religious beliefs making you assume that God decides which natural laws are in effect at what time - perhaps so He can suspend various laws when He performs miracles?
The law applies to an isolated system that exists. It doesn’t apply to an isolated system that does not exist and no such system existed prior to the beginning of the universe.
If you are saying that mass/energy conservation doesn't apply to situations where there is no mass/energy, then of course we agree, as I've explained previously. And if mass/energy is created, then conservation is violated - by definition.
If the universe was created (that is a hypothetical), then it is obvious that it was willed into creation.
Talk about begging the question! This is only obvious to theists. It is not obvious (or even reasonable) to people who do not already believe in a conscious being that exists outside of spacetime, or something like that.
To create is to actively and purposefully bring something into existence. It is not logically possible to create anything without free will.
If this is how you define "create", then obviously nobody can show any reason to believe that the universe was created.
By contrast, If the universe “poofed” into existence without a casue, as you believe, ...
You really should stop lying about my beliefs. How many times need I tell you that my position is that nobody knows how the universe came to exist?
...then it was not created and free will is not indicated.
The universe may have been caused or not caused. My guess is that the concept of causality doesn't make sense in that situation, just like the concept of speed doesn't make sense faster than the speed of light. If it was caused, then we have no idea what it was caused by. You can say it was created by some conscious being, but you have no evidence that this was the case.
So, I am not arguing (at the moment) that free will exists. I am stating an obvious fact: If the universe was created, the existence of free will is a logical requirement.
You've defined the word "created" to make that sentence true, so it is trivially true - a tautology. You can't discover the nature of reality - or win debates - just by making up definitions for words. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 23, 2015
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RDFish
What you are saying is that there are two scenarios: 1) The conservation law was in effect when mass/energy was created, and so the law was violated. 2) The conservation law was not in effect when mass/energy was created, and so the law was not violated.
This is both hilarious and instructive.
It is obvious and irrefutable.
You are, despite your denial, treating the law of conservation like it was a rule that can be followed or disobeyed, rather than a generalization about how the world works.
No, I am responding to your false claim that this same rule is violated when matter is created. The law of conservation can only be violated after it comes into existence. I am amazed that you cannot understand this.
Do you see now? It makes no sense to say that mass/energy was created/destroyed but the law of conservation was not violated, because what that is simply what it means to say that mass/energy was created or destroyed.
It must be that you ideology is driving your confusion. Either that, or you are having some kind of mental block. The law applies to an isolated system that exists. It doesn't apply to an isolated system that does not exist and no such system existed prior to the beginning of the universe.
I hope we can put this one to rest here – I don’t think I can make this more clear than I already have. I must say this has been very revealing about your mindset and the way you understand “natural law”!
It has been revealing all right, but not in the way you had hoped. SB: Without the power of free will, one cannot decide; without the power to decide, one cannot create.
So you say. The opposing point of view is that free will does not exist. Prove you’re right.
Again, you are confused. I am not trying to prove that free will exists. Stop and think for a moment. If the universe was created (that is a hypothetical), then it is obvious that it was willed into creation. To create is to actively and purposefully bring something into existence. It is not logically possible to create anything without free will. By contrast, If the universe "poofed" into existence without a casue, as you believe, then it was not created and free will is not indicated. So, I am not arguing (at the moment) that free will exists. I am stating an obvious fact: If the universe was created, the existence of free will is a logical requirement.StephenB
February 23, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
Not only the boundaries from that which is non-earth...
I've explained this several times now. There is nothing past the boundary of the Earth's surface, because the Earth's surface had no boundaries. The reason this is true is because of the geometry of the Earth's surface. If the Earth's surface was a plane instead of a sphere, then it would have boundaries, and you could reach the boundary of the Earth's surface, and there would be something beyond the edge of the Earth's surface. But there just isn't, because of the geometry of the Earth. There is nothing past the boundary of the universe, because the universe had no boundaries. The reason this is true is because of the geometry of the universe (which is actually determined by the mass the universe contains - but that is very complicated, and you need to understand general relativity theory to see why). If the universe had a different geometry, then it would have boundaries, and you could reach the boundary of the universe, and there would be something beyond the edge of the universe. But there just isn't, because of the geometry of the universe. Apparently you don't wish to acknowledge this, so let's move on.
It means it has a specific shape and size. That means the universe is contingent.
If all you mean by "contingent" is that it has a specific shape and size, then we can agree that the universe is contingent. But that is not all you mean. You also mean that it is dependent upon something else. But the property of being dependent is not tied to having a specific size and shape; something could have some particular size and shape and still be necessary.
- a beginning - whatever was in that singularity - its movement and expansion over time - the elements that comprise the universe This is what it means to be contingent.
I thought it was "having a specific shape and size"? Perhaps you need to provide a single definition for "contingent" so we can know what we're talking about.
It is not self-explained or independent. The universe is explained by the singularity and conditions that made the universe possible.
You are just separating the singularity from the universe, instead of treating the singularity as the universe in its initial state. What I am arguing is that one could just treat the singularity - everything that it consists of, every property that it has - as being necessary, not dependent upon anything else. You have provided no reason why this is any less justified than positing some conscious being that is necessary and proceeds to create this singularity. Why not just start with the singularity instead?
Science cannot prove itself to be true or false. That kind of validation is entirely dependent on non-science, metaphysics.
We agree that epistemology is outside of science.
In the same way, science cannot explain its own origin and is therefore the wrong tool to use in order to evaluate something like a first cause.
If you are saying that science cannot yet explain how the universe began, then we agree about that too. We have no empirically justified beliefs regarding how the universe came to exist. There are many different creation stories that people have made up, but we cannot determine if any of them are true.
That’s simple logic.
No, not really - it's just a fact about our knowledge of the world. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 23, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
SB: It is your claim that creating mass/energy from nothing violates the law of conservation. If the law of conservation doesn’t precede the existence of mass/energy, then it is impossible to violate it by creating mass/energy from nothing. You can only violate a law that already exists.
What you are saying is that there are two scenarios: 1) The conservation law was in effect when mass/energy was created, and so the law was violated. 2) The conservation law was not in effect when mass/energy was created, and so the law was not violated. This is both hilarious and instructive. You are, despite your denial, treating the law of conservation like it was a rule that can be followed or disobeyed, rather than a generalization about how the world works. Don't you see that if mass/energy is created or destroyed in some situation, then simply by definition that means that it is not being conserved? That is simply what "conserved" means - that it can't be created or destroyed. It makes no sense to say that mass/energy was not conserved but it didn't "violate the law" because the law "didn't exist". To say it another way, the following two statements are perfectly synonymous - they mean exactly the same thing: A) Mass/energy was created or destroyed B) Mass/energy conservation was violated Do you see now? It makes no sense to say that mass/energy was created/destroyed but the law of conservation was not violated, because what that is simply what it means to say that mass/energy was created or destroyed. I hope we can put this one to rest here - I don't think I can make this more clear than I already have. I must say this has been very revealing about your mindset and the way you understand "natural law"!
Without the power of free will, one cannot decide; without the power to decide, one cannot create.
So you say. The opposing point of view is that free will does not exist. Prove you're right. Since you've declared that this is so simple and obvious, you should have the proof at the ready: Simply provide a way that demonstrates our choices are free and not determined by antecedent events. You'll be famous!
You defined cause as a “concept.” A concept does not have the capacity to generate heat, but a power does.
The word "power" has a scientific definition: It is the rate of doing work, in units of energy consumed per unit time. If one applies electrical current to a heating element, the is the electrical energy that causes the heat, not the "causality". If one hits a billiard ball with a cue, it is the kinetic energy in the cue that causes the ball to move, not "causality". Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 23, 2015
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Silver Asiatic
Science cannot prove itself to be true or false. That kind of validation is entirely dependent on non-science, metaphysics. In the same way, science cannot explain its own origin and is therefore the wrong tool to use in order to evaluate something like a first cause.
Right. Science is powerless to comment on the existence of a first cause.
That’s simple logic.
Indeed, it is.
A first cause is necessary as an explanation of a sequence of events. The universe is a sequence of events. Therefore there is a first cause of that sequence.
Precisely. The logic is inescapable. Here is the way Peter Kreeft puts it: "If there is no first cause, then the universe is like a railroad train moving without an engine. Each car's motion is explained proximately by the motion of the car in front of it: the caboose moves because the boxcar pulls it, the boxcar moves because the cattle car pulls it, et cetera. But there is no engine to pull the first car and the whole train. That would be impossible, of course. But that is what the universe is like if there is no first cause: impossible."StephenB
February 23, 2015
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RDFish
What we mean by calling something a “cause” is that it is reliably followed by some “effect”. This means, for example, electricity has the power to generate heat, and gravity has the power to hold us on the Earth, but it does not mean that “causality” per se is some sort of power.
You defined cause as a "concept." A concept does not have the capacity to generate heat, but a power does. So, I ask you again. Is cause a "concept," which clearly cannot produce an effect, or is it a power, which can produce an effect.StephenB
February 23, 2015
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RDFish
Well, no – it has a finite measure, but not necessary a boundary. Again, think of the finite 2 dimensional surface of the Earth that has no boundaries: You can begin walking anywhere on Earth and walk as far as you’d like in any direction and never reach a boundary, ever.
The measure of a finite thing is what determines the boundary. The surface of the earth is finite and has boundaries. Not only the boundaries from that which is non-earth, but the limit of the earth's size itself is a boundary. It is only so big and not bigger. I could say "my kitchen floor has no boundaries", and to prove it, I could take one step forward and one step back for an infinite amount of time. That's the analogy with walking around the earth. The walk is a measure - eventually, you're measuring the same space you already measured.
You can fly in a spaceship as long as you’d like in any direction and never reach a boundary, ever.
If you flew for an infinite period of time in a finite space, you'd eventually cover every square inch more than once. That's a boundary. That's why it's not infinite. It means it has a specific shape and size. That means the universe is contingent.
The universe is thought to be finite because it started as a single point (singularity) and has expanded over a finite period of time.
In that scenario universe is dependent on: - a beginning - whatever was in that singularity - its movement and expansion over time - the elements that comprise the universe This is what it means to be contingent. It is not self-explained or independent. The universe is explained by the singularity and conditions that made the universe possible.
like there is nothing outside of the surface of the Earth in 2 dimensions.
To say that there is nothing outside the earth, however, is false.
I only object to those who pretend that their own particular religious views are somehow proven true by science and logic.
Science cannot prove itself to be true or false. That kind of validation is entirely dependent on non-science, metaphysics. In the same way, science cannot explain its own origin and is therefore the wrong tool to use in order to evaluate something like a first cause. That's simple logic. A first cause is necessary as an explanation of a sequence of events. The universe is a sequence of events. Therefore there is a first cause of that sequence.Silver Asiatic
February 23, 2015
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SB: It is your claim that creating mass/energy from nothing violates the law of conservation. If the law of conservation doesn’t precede the existence of mass/energy, then it is impossible to violate it by creating mass/energy from nothing. You can only violate a law that already exists. RDFish
Now, here is what you are doing: You are mistaking physical laws (definition #2) for legal rules (definition #1), as though they were drawn up by some celestial lawyer who can decide if and when the law should be enacted, enforced, suspended, rescinded and so on. That may be your religious understanding of physical law, but it is unscientific.
No, you are incorrect. I said or implied nothing about a celestial lawyer in this context. This is a real waste of time. Please stop doing that.
In science, physical laws are not rules that somebody decides to enact, but rather descriptions of what we infer from our observations of the world. Physical laws are descriptions of the regularities we observe among mass and energy and time and space and forces and so on.......(and on and on)
I know the meaning of physical laws, thank you very much. This is another waste of time. We are discussing the law of conservation, the law that you depend on to answer every question even when it doesn’t relate to the question. It is your claim that creating mass/energy from nothing violates the law of conservation. I am asking how that could even be possible. If the law of conservation doesn’t precede the existence of mass/energy, then it is impossible to violate it by creating mass/energy from nothing. You can only violate a law that already exists. Are you saying, therefore, that the law of conservation preceded the birth of the universe?
If mass/energy was created at some point, such as the Big Bang, then the regularity that we normally observe and call a law, viz that mass/energy is never created nor destroyed – did not hold at that point. That’s all that is meant by “conservation is violated”
What makes you think there was any such thing as a law of conservation prior to the big bang? Again, you are assuming that the law of conservation preceded the birth of the universe. Why are you assuming that? Do you have any evidence to support that view?
When you say that the law wasn’t violated because it didn’t exist at the time, it makes no sense, because it isn’t a matter of somebody deciding when the law should apply, but rather a matter of us discovering when the law holds and when (if) it doesn’t.
It has nothing whatever to do with anyone’s decision and everything to do with whether or not there was any pre-existent law of conservation at the birth of the universe. You are confusing my definition of a creator (which you asked for in another context) with our discussion on the law of conservation. Please stop doing that. SB: I don’t know why you are struggling with this very simple point. Only an intelligent agent with free will can decide to create.
It is truly amazing that you think that the most difficult and profound questions that have occupied the brightest minds for millenia without ever approaching consensus should be characterized as simple points.
It is truly amazing that you cannot follow the argument. Without the power of free will, one cannot decide; without the power to decide, one cannot create. You really do need to ask yourself if your ideology is preventing you from thinking clearly on this matter.
It is indicative of a lack of sophistication for you to imagine your particular understanding of this and similar philosophical problems are simple and obvious. If you continue to study these issues, rather than uncritically accept whatever solutions you’ve been exposed to thus far, you may at some point gain the wisdom to realize you know far less than you think you
I have every reason to believe that I have studied these issues much more carefully than you have. You labor under the misconception that making things more complex than they need to be is a sign of sophistication. That isn’t the case. The real task is to wade through the complexity in order to arrive at a rational conclusion. It appears that you wallow in complexity for its own sake, especially when you deny something as obvious as the fact that willing is inextricably tied to creating.StephenB
February 23, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
Let me ask it another way. Do you think that a cause has the power to produce an effect,
This is true merely by definition: What we mean by calling something a "cause" is that it is reliably followed by some "effect". This means, for example, electricity has the power to generate heat, and gravity has the power to hold us on the Earth, but it does not mean that "causality" per se is some sort of power.
I think a cause is the power of a person or thing to produce an effect. It is not just an idea, concept, or perception. I gather you disagree, but you have not yet disclosed your opinion on the matter.
I've given you my full thoughts on the matter.
It is your claim that creating mass/energy from nothing violates the law of conservation. If the law of conservation doesn’t precede the existence of mass/energy, then it is impossible to violate it by creating mass/energy from nothing. You can only violate a law that already exists.
This is pretty interesting, actually. Here are two definitions of "law" from the dictionary:
noun: law 1. the system of rules that a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and may enforce by the imposition of penalties. "they were taken to court for breaking the law" 2. a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present. "the second law of thermodynamics"
Now, here is what you are doing: You are mistaking physical laws (definition #2) for legal rules (definition #1), as though they were drawn up by some celestial lawyer who can decide if and when the law should be enacted, enforced, suspended, rescinded and so on. That may be your religious understanding of physical law, but it is unscientific. In science, physical laws are not rules that somebody decides to enact, but rather descriptions of what we infer from our observations of the world. Physical laws are descriptions of the regularities we observe among mass and energy and time and space and forces and so on. If we find an exception to one of these regularities, then we say the law is violated. It doesn't mean somebody's intent was disregarded, or that something happened that shouldn't have happened. All it means is that the regularity that we ourselves have induced did not hold under certain conditions. If mass/energy was created at some point, such as the Big Bang, then the regularity that we normally observe and call a law, viz that mass/energy is never created nor destroyed - did not hold at that point. That's all that is meant by "conservation is violated". When you say that the law wasn't violated because it didn't exist at the time, it makes no sense, because it isn't a matter of somebody deciding when the law should apply, but rather a matter of us discovering when the law holds and when (if) it doesn't.
You didn’t ask me to demonstrate the existence of a Creator. You asked me to define a creator. Reread you question. You do understand the difference between an argument and a definition, right?
Uh, you gave me your definition, which I asked for, and I told you that was fine, now you can let me know when you have any reason to believe such a thing exists. :-)
I don’t know why you are struggling with this very simple point. Only an intelligent agent with free will can decide to create.
It is truly amazing that you think that the most difficult and profound questions that have occupied the brightest minds for millenia without ever approaching consensus should be characterized as simple points. I don't think that libertarian free will is a coherent concept, and in this belief I am joined by a large number of scholars and great thinkers - and I am also contradicted by other scholars and great thinkers. It is indicative of a lack of sophistication for you to imagine your particular understanding of this and similar philosophical problems are simple and obvious. If you continue to study these issues, rather than uncritically accept whatever solutions you've been exposed to thus far, you may at some point gain the wisdom to realize you know far less than you think you do. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 22, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
RDF: There is no room that the balloon floats within – there is just the balloon and nothing else, not even space. SA: I understand what you’re trying to say, but it’s inexplicable.
Yes, I agree - in a sense we cannot imagine it, but general relativity (the theory that defines what we know about these things) has been experimentally confirmed very well.
We define the earth by its boundaries. As I said, earth and non-earth.
Yes, we naturally understand that Earth is a 3 dimensional sphere within 3 dimensional space, and the 2 dimensional surface of the Earth forms its boundary.
A thing is finite because it has boundaries or limits.
Well, no - it has a finite measure, but not necessary a boundary. Again, think of the finite 2 dimensional surface of the Earth that has no boundaries: You can begin walking anywhere on Earth and walk as far as you'd like in any direction and never reach a boundary, ever. The same is true of 3-dimensional space (actually considered a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold in relativity theory): You can fly in a spaceship as long as you'd like in any direction and never reach a boundary, ever.
A finite universe is contingent.
I disagree.
The universe does not explain why it has this finite limitation verses that.
The universe is thought to be finite because it started as a single point (singularity) and has expanded over a finite period of time.
Science cannot model or explain something that “has nothing outside of it”.
No, you're wrong about that: The equations of general relativity are exactly what models the universe, and in those models, there is nothing outside of the 4-dimensional universe - just like there is nothing outside of the surface of the Earth in 2 dimensions.
It’s a paradox and similar to some of the examples you’ve given about quantum effects. These things are incomprehensible – beyond our comprehension.
There is a sense in which we cannot understand the laws of quantum physics and relativity, and there is a sense in which we understand them perfectly and precisely. We cannot intuitively understand modern physics - we can't picture 4 dimensional manifolds in our mind's eye, and we cannot understand what a quantum waveform actually is (it is thought of as a "wave of probability", which we obviously can't visualize). However, the mathematical descriptions in these theories explain and predict phenomenon of the very small and the very large with perfect precision, and they are never wrong, even when the predictions are of things we would never imagine to be true (quantum tunnelling, gravitational lensing, and so on).
But for some reason you’re able to accept them while you’re not able to discuss the existince of a first cause, for similar reasons.
Not true at all: The reason I believe that the descriptions of modern physics are true is because they make specific predictions that are thoroughly confirmed by experiement, and because they explain a wide range of phenomena with a small number of very specific laws and assumptions. Saying that a "first cause" accounts for the universe has none of these qualities - it really doesn't mean anything at all. And once you start with divine attributes, including the conscious awareness of some being that exists outside of the universe, it's all just so much poetry, and has nothing to do with logic or science at all. Don't get me wrong, please: I think there is beauty and comfort in religious imagery and beliefs, and would never judge anyone for believing in any conception of God they find appealing. I only object to those who pretend that their own particular religious views are somehow proven true by science and logic. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 22, 2015
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RDFish
I certainly don’t think causality is a “power” in a scientific sense, no – it is not a force, nor is it energy. Ontologically, I would say it has the same status as a concept like temporal order – not a power or a force or a thing, but something in nature that we experience.
Let me ask it another way. Do you think that a cause has the power to produce an effect, or do you think it is merely a mental concept?
What do you think causality is?
I think a cause is the power of a person or thing to produce an effect. It is not just an idea, concept, or perception. I gather you disagree, but you have not yet disclosed your opinion on the matter. What is a cause? Is it a power or a mental concept? You appear to be saying that it is a mental concept. Is that right? SB: The law of conservation could only be violated if it pre-existed the birth of the universe. If it came with the material universe, then it is subject to being violated only after matter came into existence. Do you have any evidence to support the idea that the law of conservation preceded the existence of time/space/matter?
Your question doesn’t make sense:
It makes perfect sense. It is your claim that creating mass/energy from nothing violates the law of conservation. If the law of conservation doesn’t precede the existence of mass/energy, then it is impossible to violate it by creating mass/energy from nothing. You can only violate a law that already exists.
What is a creator?
SB: For our purposes, it is an intelligent agent with a free will capable of producing a universe and all its laws, including the law of conservation.
Well that’s fine then. When you come up with some way to demonstrate that such a thing exists, existed, or could even exist in principle, let me know.
You didn’t ask me to demonstrate the existence of a Creator. You asked me to define a creator. Reread you question. You do understand the difference between an argument and a definition, right? If you want me to argue for a Creator, I can certainly do that. SB: I am drawing the logical conclusion that only someone with a free will can decide to create.
And yet again you claim that your conclusions derive from “logic” – but logic tells us nothing about free will, or conscious beings that have no brains, or something that exists outside of spacetime.
I don’t know why you are struggling with this very simple point. Only an intelligent agent with free will can decide to create. Free will is a logical requirement for decision making, and decision making is a logical requirement for creating.StephenB
February 22, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
Do you think that causality is a real power in nature, or do you think that is only a mental concept? This is an important question that we cannot just gloss over. What is your position?
I certainly don't think causality is a "power" in a scientific sense, no - it is not a force, nor is it energy. Ontologically, I would say it has the same status as a concept like temporal order - not a power or a force or a thing, but something in nature that we experience. What do you think causality is?
Is it your position that if a horse suddenly appeared in your living room without a cause (something you believe is unlikely, but possible) it could only occur if pre-existent matter was being configured (or re-configured)?
Such a thing is more unlikely than a broken egg spontaneously reforming into perfect egg in a blender - so unlikely that if I ever observed it, the only rational response would be to doubt my observation or my own sanity. As for your exact question, I would say that a violation of mass/energy conservation is prohibited by absolute physical law, while broken eggs reforming and horses moving from one place to another without traversing the intermediate space are prohibited by probabilistic laws. But even the absolute conservation laws (and other absolute laws, such as the Pauli exclusion principle or the Heisenberg uncertainty principle) may break down under extreme, extra-ordinary circumstances.
What is the probability that a horse could appear in your living room without a cause?
Are you asking for some probability calculation? Haha - above my pay grade, I'm afraid. If you're curious, read about deBroglie wavelengths. It turns out that the wave-particle duality that is responsible for a lot of weirdness at the quantum level applies to macroscopic objects too, and it was deBroglie who hypothesized this in the early 20th century. It has been experimentally confirmed many times, with objects as massive as large molecules. But the effects start to statistically cancel out at greater masses, which is why we do not observe horses (or even fleas) appearing in living rooms.
RDF: Right – exactly. In other words, the law of conservation would be violated by the creation of mass/energy, so if mass/energy was created at the birth of the universe, that law was violated (in other words, there was no such law in effect). SB: I don’t understand your comment. How can a non-existent law be violated?
Physical laws are not like legal laws :-) When a physical law is violated, it means that some regularity that has been reliably observed within certain realms (of mass, size, velocity, charge, etc) fails to hold in other realms. So there was a law that light always travels in a straight line in empty space, and this was found to be invariably true... until we started looking at how light travelled in empty space near a very massive object, and found that law no longer held in that situation.
The law of conservation could only be violated if it pre-existed the birth of the universe. If it came with the material universe, then it is subject to being violated only after matter came into existence. Do you have any evidence to support the idea that the law of conservation preceded the existence of time/space/matter?
Your question doesn't make sense: It doesn't mean anything to say mass/energy is conserved if there is no mass/energy. It's like saying there is no such thing as the Loch Ness monster, but it always enjoys tea at noon.
RDF: What is a creator? SB: For our purposes, it is an intelligent agent with a free will capable of producing a universe and all its laws, including the law of conservation.
Well that's fine then. When you come up with some way to demonstrate that such a thing exists, existed, or could even exist in principle, let me know.
I am drawing the logical conclusion that only someone with a free will can decide to create.
And yet again you claim that your conclusions derive from "logic" - but logic tells us nothing about free will, or conscious beings that have no brains, or something that exists outside of spacetime. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 22, 2015
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Hi Silver Asiatic,
RDF: There is no room that the balloon floats within – there is just the balloon and nothing else, not even space. SA: I understand what you’re trying to say, but it’s inexplicable.
Yes, I agree - in a sense we cannot imagine it, but general relativity (the theory that defines what we know about these things) has been experimentally confirmed very well.
We define the earth by its boundaries. As I said, earth and non-earth.
Yes, we naturally understand that Earth is a 3 dimensional sphere within 3 dimensional space, and the 2 dimensional surface of the Earth forms its boundary.
A thing is finite because it has boundaries or limits.
Well, no - it has a finite measure, but not necessarily a boundary. Again, think of the finite 2 dimensional surface of the Earth that has no boundaries: You can begin walking anywhere on Earth and walk as far as you'd like in any direction and never reach a boundary, ever, even though the surface of the Earth is finite. The same is true of 3-dimensional space (actually considered a 4-dimensional spacetime manifold in relativity theory): You can fly in a spaceship as long as you'd like in any direction and never reach a boundary, ever, even though the volume and radius of the universe is finite.
A finite universe is contingent.
I disagree.
The universe does not explain why it has this finite limitation verses that.
The universe is thought to be finite because it started as a single point (singularity) and has expanded over a finite period of time.
Science cannot model or explain something that “has nothing outside of it”.
No, you're wrong about that: The equations of general relativity are exactly what models the universe, and in those models, there is nothing outside of the 4-dimensional universe - just like there is nothing outside of the surface of the Earth in 2 dimensions.
It’s a paradox and similar to some of the examples you’ve given about quantum effects. These things are incomprehensible – beyond our comprehension.
There is a sense in which we cannot understand the laws of quantum physics and relativity, and there is a sense in which we understand them perfectly and precisely. We cannot intuitively understand modern physics - we can't picture 4 dimensional manifolds in our mind's eye, and we cannot understand what a quantum waveform actually is (it is thought of as a "wave of probability", which we obviously can't visualize). However, the mathematical descriptions in these theories explain and predict phenomenon of the very small and the very large with perfect precision, and they are never wrong, even when the predictions are of things we would never imagine to be true (quantum tunnelling, gravitational lensing, and so on).
But for some reason you’re able to accept them while you’re not able to discuss the existince of a first cause, for similar reasons.
Not true at all: The reason I believe that the descriptions of modern physics are true is because they make specific predictions that are thoroughly confirmed by experiement, and because they explain a wide range of phenomena with a small number of very specific laws and assumptions. Saying that a "first cause" accounts for the universe has none of these qualities - it really doesn't mean anything at all. And once you start with divine attributes, including the conscious awareness of some being that exists outside of the universe, it's all just so much poetry, and has nothing to do with logic or science at all. Don't get me wrong, please: I think there is beauty and comfort in religious imagery and beliefs, and would never judge anyone for believing in any conception of God they find appealing. I only object to those who pretend that their own particular religious views are somehow proven true by science and logic. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
February 22, 2015
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