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On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism

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I have sometimes had the idea that the best way for Intelligent Design advocates to make their case would be to build a giant museum replicating the complexity of the cell on a large scale, so that people could see for themselves how the cell worked and draw their own conclusions. Recently I came across an old quote from biochemist Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Adler and Adler, 1985) which put paid to that idea, but which raised an interesting philosophical puzzle for people who adhere to scientific naturalism – which I define here as the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature]. Here is the first part of the quote from Denton, which I had seen before (h/t Matt Chait):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.

We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules.

We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology.

What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle. (pp. 328 ff.)

Reading this passage vindicated my belief that a museum of the cell would be a great way to promote ID. “If we build it, they will come,” I thought. But there was more to follow, which I hadn’t read before. It turns out that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:

To gain a more objective grasp of the level of complexity the cell represents, consider the problem of constructing an atomic model. Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid.

Copying nature, we could speed up the construction of the model by using small molecules such as amino acids and nucleotides rather than individual atoms. Since individual amino acids and nucleotides are made up of between ten and twenty atoms each, this would enable us to finish the project in less than five million years. We could also speed up the project by mass producing those components in the cell which are present in many copies. Perhaps three-quarters of the cell’s mass can be accounted for by such components. But even if we could produce these very quickly we would still be faced with manufacturing a quarter of the cell’s mass which consists largely of components which only occur once or twice and which would have to be constructed, therefore, on an individual basis. The complexity of the cell, like that of any complex machine, cannot be reduced to any sort of simple pattern, nor can its manufacture be reduced to a simple set of algorithms or programmes. Working continually day and night it would still be difficult to finish the model in the space of one million years. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

But there’s more, as Matt Chait points out (emphasis mine):

And let me add my two cents to this astounding picture. The model that you would complete a million years later would be just that, a lifeless static model. For the cell to do its work this entire twenty kilometer structure and each of its trillions of components must be charged in specific ways, and at the level of the protein molecule, it must have an entire series of positive and negative charges and hydrophobic and hydrophilic parts all precisely shaped (at a level of precision far, far beyond our highest technical abilities) and charged in a whole series of ways: charged in a way to find other molecular components and combine with them; charged in a way to fold into a shape and maintain that most important shape, and charged in a way to be guided by other systems of charges to the precise spot in the cell where that particle must go. The pattern of charges and the movement of energy through the cell is easily as complex as the pattern of the physical particles themselves.

Also, Denton, in his discussion, uses a tennis ball to stand in for an atom. But an atom is not a ball. It is not even a ‘tiny solar system’ of neutrons, protons and electrons’ as we once thought. Rather, it has now been revealed to be an enormously complex lattice of forces connected by a bewildering array of utterly miniscule subatomic particles including hadrons, leptons, bosons, fermions, mesons, baryons, quarks and anti-quarks, up and down quarks, top and bottom quarks, charm quarks, strange quarks, virtual quarks, valence quarks, gluons and sea quarks…

And let me remind you again, that what we are talking about, a living cell, is a microscopic dot and thousands of these entire factories including all the complexity that we discussed above could fit on the head of a pin. Or, going another way, let’s add to this model of twenty square kilometers of breath taking complexity another one hundred trillion equally complex factories all working in perfect synchronous coordination with each other; which would be a model of the one hundred trillion celled human body, your body, that thing that we lug around every day and complain about; that would, spread laterally at the height of one cell at this magnification, blanket the entire surface of the earth four thousand times over, every part of which would contain pumps and coils and conduits and memory banks and processing centers; all working in perfect harmony with each other, all engineered to an unimaginable level of precision and all there to deliver to us our ability to be conscious, to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, and to experience the world as we are so used to experiencing it, that we have taken it and the fantastic mechanisms that make it possible for granted.

My question is, “Why don’t we know this?” What Michael Denton has written and I have added to is a perfectly accurate, easily intelligible, non-hyperbolic view of the cell. Why is this not taught in every introductory biology class in our schools?

Based on the foregoing, I think it’s fair to say that we’ll never be able to construct a computer model of the cell either, down to the atomic level: the computing resources required would just be too huge. And in that case, it will never be scientifically possible to model a natural process (or a set of processes) and demonstrate that it could have given rise to the cell – or even show that it had a greater than 50% probability of doing so.

So here’s my question for the skeptics: if we have no hope of ever proving the idea that the cell could have arisen through unguided natural processes, or even showing this idea to be probably true, then how can we possibly be said to know for a fact that this actually happened? Knowledge, after all, isn’t merely a true belief; it has to be a justified true belief. What could justify the claim that abiogenesis actually occurred?

It gets worse. We cannot legitimately be said to know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that life could have arisen via unguided processes. But if we don’t know the latter, then we cannot know the former. Ergo, scientific naturalism, even if were true, can never be known to be true.

There’s more. Scientific naturalists are fond of claiming that there are only two valid sources of knowledge: a priori truths of logic and mathematics, which can be known through reason alone; and a posteriori empirical truths, which are known as a result of experience and/or scientific inquiry. The statement that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance on the primordial Earth is neither a truth of logic and mathematics nor a truth which can be demonstrated (or even shown to be probable) via experience and/or scientific inquiry. And since we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance, it follows that the truth of scientific naturalism cannot be known through either of the two avenues of knowledge postulated by the skeptic. So either there must be some third source of knowledge (intuition, perhaps?) that the skeptic has to fall back on. Yeah, right.

And please, don’t tell me, “Well, scientists have explained X, Y and Z, so it’s only a matter of time before they can explain life.” First, that’s illicit reasoning: performing inductive logic over a set of things is problematic enough (black swans, anyone?), but performing it over a set of scientific theories, concocted during a time-span of just 471 years – the Scientific Revolution is commonly held to have begun in 1543 – is absolutely ridiculous. And second, as I’ve argued above, there’s good reason to believe that our computing resources will never be up to the task of showing that the first living cell could have arisen via a natural, unguided process.

One last question: if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?

Checkmate, naturalists? Over to you.

Comments
It is also interesting to note how the perception of time radically changes for Near Death Experiencers who go through a tunnel to a higher heavenly dimension,,
'There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now.' - John Star - NDE Experiencer 'Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything - past, present, future - exists simultaneously.' - Kimberly Clark Sharp - NDE Experiencer 'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' In The Presence Of Almighty God – The NDE of Mickey Robinson – video https://vimeo.com/92172680
As well, it is interesting to note that Einstien's special relativity supports this 'higher dimensional, 'eternal'', view of time:
"I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein - The Einstein Factor - Reader's Digest - 2005 Albert Einstein - Special Relativity - Insight Into Eternity - 'thought experiment' video https://vimeo.com/93101738 "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12
Of supplemental note: Here are a few quotes, in regards to the primacy of consciousness in Quantum Mechanics, from some giants in Quantum Mechanics:
“No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.” Max Planck (1858–1947), the originator of quantum theory, The Observer, London, January 25, 1931 “As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” Max Planck – The Father Of Quantum Mechanics – Das Wesen der Materie [The Nature of Matter], speech at Florence, Italy (1944) (from Archiv zur Geschichte der Max-Planck-Gesellschaft, Abt. Va, Rep. 11 Planck, Nr. 1797) “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” (Schroedinger, Erwin. 1984. “General Scientific and Popular Papers,” in Collected Papers, Vol. 4. Vienna: Austrian Academy of Sciences. Friedr. Vieweg & Sohn, Braunschweig/Wiesbaden. p. 334.) “It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays “Symmetries and Reflections – “It will remain remarkable, in whatever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality” – Eugene Wigner – (Remarks on the Mind-Body Question, Eugene Wigner, in Wheeler and Zurek, p.169) 1961 – received Nobel Prize in 1963 for ‘Quantum Symmetries’
Of related note, Physicists are on the verge of closing the last ‘loophole’ for ‘non-local’, beyond space and time, quantum entanglement. i.e. The ‘free will’ loophole:
Is Quantum Entanglement Real? – David Kaiser – Nov. 14, 2014 Excerpt: How to close this loophole? Well, obviously, we aren’t going to try to prove that humans have free will. But we can try something else. In our proposed experiment, the detector setting that is selected (say, measuring a particle’s spin along this direction rather than that one) would be determined not by us — but by an observed property of some of the oldest light in the universe (say, whether light from distant quasars arrives at Earth at an even- or odd-numbered microsecond). These sources of light are so far away from us and from one another that they would not have been able to receive a single light signal from one another, or from the position of the Earth, before the moment, billions of years ago, when they emitted the light that we detect here on Earth today. That is, we would guarantee that any strange “nudging” or conspiracy among the detector settings — if it does exist — would have to have occurred all the way back at the Hot Big Bang itself, nearly 14 billion years ago. If, as we expect, the usual predictions from quantum theory are borne out in this experiment, we will have constrained various alternative theories as much as physically possible in our universe. If not, that would point toward a profoundly new physics. Either way, the experiment promises to be exciting — a fitting way, we hope, to mark Bell’s paper’s 50th anniversary. - David Kaiser is a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he teaches physics and the history of science. His latest book is “How the Hippies Saved Physics: Science, Counterculture, and the Quantum Revival.” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/opinion/sunday/is-quantum-entanglement-real.html?_r=1
My only question right now is not if they will close the free will loophole but, “By how many standard deviations will they close it?”,,, These guys don’t mess around, they closed the last loophole by 70 standard deviations, and verified Leggett’s inequality by 120 standard deviations! Verse and Music
Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Fish: He is before all things, Colossians 1:17,18 - music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhQ2LR1KGDo
bornagain77
November 26, 2014
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Learned Hand @ 1: we have no evidence of functional machines arising naturally. We are surrounded by functional machines created by intelligent designers. That's why we'd prefer one "impossibility" over another.lpadron
November 26, 2014
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Seversky, congratulations, with your “who designed the designer” objection you have just made what many leading philosophers consider the worst possible objection to God:
Worst Objection to Theism: Who Created God? - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKKIvmcO5LQ
In fact, atheistic philosopher Michael Ruse is embarrased that fellow atheists make the 'Who Created God' argument:
"Like every first-year undergraduate in philosophy, Dawkins thinks he can put to rest the causal argument for God’s existence. If God caused the world, then what caused God? Of course the great philosophers, Anselm and Aquinas particularly, are way ahead of him here. They know that the only way to stop the regression is by making God something that needs no cause. He must be a necessary being. This means that God is not part of the regular causal chain but in some sense orthogonal to it. He is what keeps the whole business going, past, present and future, and is the explanation of why there is something rather than nothing. Also God is totally simple, and I don’t see why complexity should not arise out of this, just as it does in mathematics and science from very simple premises." Michael Ruse - Atheistic philosopher
Lawrence Krauss, who couldn't even properly define 'nothing' in the first place, was also called on the carpet by philosophers for making the 'What Caused God?' argument.
Not Understanding Nothing – A review of A Universe from Nothing – Edward Feser - June 2012 Excerpt: A critic might reasonably question the arguments for a divine first cause of the cosmos. But to ask “What caused God?” misses the whole reason classical philosophers thought his existence necessary in the first place. So when physicist Lawrence Krauss begins his new book by suggesting that to ask “Who created the creator?” suffices to dispatch traditional philosophical theology, we know it isn’t going to end well. ,,, ,,, But Krauss simply can’t see the “difference between arguing in favor of an eternally existing creator versus an eternally existing universe without one.” The difference, as the reader of Aristotle or Aquinas knows, is that the universe changes while the unmoved mover does not, or, as the Neoplatonist can tell you, that the universe is made up of parts while its source is absolutely one; or, as Leibniz could tell you, that the universe is contingent and God absolutely necessary. There is thus a principled reason for regarding God rather than the universe as the terminus of explanation. http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/05/not-understanding-nothing
Moreover, consciousness does not suffer from the infinite regress argument as temporal material objects do. One of the main ancient philosophical arguments against the material universe being eternal, prior to our current scientific evidence for the Big Bang,,,
Evidence For The Big Bang – Michael Strauss – video https://vimeo.com/91775973 Evidence Supporting the Big Bang http://www.astronomynotes.com/cosmolgy/s7.htm
,,,was the infinite regress argument,,,
Time Cannot Be Infinite Into The Past – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg0pdUvQdi4
,,,The infinite regress argument is particularly devastating for atheistic materialism because it is impossible, due to the infinite regress, for there ever to be a today, or a ‘now’, if materialism were true,,,
The dissolution of today – graph – May 21, 2014 Excerpt: Scenario A shows the actual situation of the arrow of time, running from left to right, from today to the future. If this arrow is infinite then we would have no last day. To scenario A we apply a shift according to a leftward vector of infinite length to get scenario B suggested by Carroll. Of course the arrow of time continues to run from left to right, but the shift produces a “little” problem: the “no last day” becomes “no today!”. Simply in Carroll’s wonderland the present disappears, and with the present ourselves disappear. :(Please give us back the Creator!) https://uncommondescent.com/physics/the-dissolution-of-today/
Yet, Consciousness, (and information), does not suffer from the infinite regress argument because it is always ‘now’ for consciousness, (and information). To clearly get this point across, Einstein was once asked by a philosopher,,,
“Can physics demonstrate the existence of ‘the now’ in order to make the notion of ‘now’ into a scientifically valid term?”
Einstein’s answer was categorical, he said:
“The experience of ‘the now’ cannot be turned into an object of physical measurement, it can never be a part of physics.”
The ‘now’ quote from Einstein was taken from the last few minutes of this following video, and what the philosopher meant by the question can be read in full context in the article following the video:
Stanley L. Jaki: “The Mind and Its Now” https://vimeo.com/10588094 The Mind and Its Now – Stanley L. Jaki, July 2008 Excerpts: There can be no active mind without its sensing its existence in the moment called now.,,, Three quarters of a century ago Charles Sherrington, the greatest modern student of the brain, spoke memorably on the mind’s baffling independence of the brain. The mind lives in a self-continued now or rather in the now continued in the self. This life involves the entire brain, some parts of which overlap, others do not. ,,,There is no physical parallel to the mind’s ability to extend from its position in the momentary present to its past moments, or in its ability to imagine its future. The mind remains identical with itself while it lives through its momentary nows. ,,, the now is immensely richer an experience than any marvelous set of numbers, even if science could give an account of the set of numbers, in terms of energy levels. The now is not a number. It is rather a word, the most decisive of all words. It is through experiencing that word that the mind comes alive and registers all existence around and well beyond. ,,, All our moments, all our nows, flow into a personal continuum, of which the supreme form is the NOW which is uncreated, because it simply IS. http://www.saintcd.com/science-and-faith/277-the-mind-and-its-now.html?showall=1&limitstart=
Moreover, ‘the now of the mind’, contrary to what Einstein thought possible for experimental physics, and according to advances in quantum mechanics, takes precedence over past events in time.
A Short History Of Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
i.e.,Sans LaPlace, quantum mechanics says of time (and by default says to the infinite regress argument), ‘I have no need of that hypothesis’. In fact, due to advances in quantum mechanics, it would now be much more appropriate to phrase Einstein’s answer to the philosopher in this way:
“It is impossible for the experience of ‘the now of the mind’ to ever be divorced from physical measurement, it will always be a part of physics.”
bornagain77
November 26, 2014
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Keith S @ 2: I totally dig what you're saying with the whole "can this argument be used against" bit. That's exactly what I thought when reading Learned Hands first post and how he'd be completely fail at providing any evidence, mechanism or just about anything that would explain how a cell could arise naturally and how he'd have to rely on personal credulity despite the failure of his proposition.lpadron
November 26, 2014
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Who designed Reality? Well, it is what it is. And (at least on our planet) is loaded with intelligence. Consciousness is primary.Vishnu
November 26, 2014
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Sev @ 54. That you would still at the late date bring out the "who designed the designer" chestnut, demonstrates that you are have not been paying attention. It really is whack-a-mole with you people.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2014
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This is still a variant of the Mind-bogglingly Big Numbers argument which, in turn, is a species of the Argument from Incredulity. It still doesn't escape the implication, either, that however staggeringly complex, and hence improbable, the putative design might be, any designer capable of achieving such complexity must be even more complex and, hence, even more improbable. This raises an obvious problem. If complexity implies a designer, who designed the this designer who must be more complex than the designs we observe? Or is it designers all the way down?Seversky
November 26, 2014
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Mung wrote
In other news, I am still waiting for a sequence of 40 consecutive heads to appear. That’s 40. Not 500.
I wonder whether this is where the term "flipping idiot" came from! LOL -QQuerius
November 26, 2014
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Quest, Your son's biology teacher is misinformed about the existence of "vestigial" organs. Because the discovery of functions for previously assumed useless evolutionary detritus caused embarrassment for the True Believers in Darwin (there were 180 or so presented at the Scopes trial), the neo-Darwinist reformers now claim that vestigial organs DO actually have a function, but the function is slowly evolving over hundreds of millions of years by invisible increments into an organ or structure with a different primary purpose advantage, and actually ALL organs and structures are doing so. This effectively eliminates the "vestigial" category. However, your son's biology teacher could actually be an evolutionary fundamentalist (oh oh) and might still be teaching discredited ideas such as ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, and the evolution of peppered moths, Darwin's finches, and ring species. You might want to check. This material is definitely outdated and shouldn't be taught in a science classroom. -QQuerius
November 26, 2014
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if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?
Because believing that something can come from nothing and after having done so that something can through trillions and trillions of fortuitous collisions actually cohere into the vast living world including ourselves beats the alternative. We just got very lucky. That's all. In other news, I am still waiting for a sequence of 40 consecutive heads to appear. That's 40. Not 500.Mung
November 26, 2014
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Conversely, three things started me on the path of losing my own faith in Darwin: - The mutual dependency of geology and paleontology regarding dating fossils with respect to evolution - The resemblance between van Helmont's recipe for the spontaneous generation of mice to explanations of the origin of life - The astounding number and complexity of the chemical cycles in cells Later, I started realizing that the "magical" explanatory qualities of the theory of evolution revealed it as philosophical speculation, a relic from the Victorian age, rather than rigorous science. -QQuerius
November 26, 2014
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The cell is irreducibly complex, as I have said this on this blog many times... All the components essential for the function of the cell have to be there at the same time or the cell will not function... All the so stories about RNA World or Larry Moran's favorite metabolism first are just stories made up to fill the need of 2 % of people on the Earth that need to hear it because they don't what to hear anything else... The sad part of it is that the vast majority of those people claim to be scientists and get offended when you tell them that they are teaching your kids lies... BTW: I have recently been called in on the red carpet at my youngest son's school... The biology teacher sent my son to the principal's office because he disagreed with him that the tailbone is a vestigial organ... The teacher told the kids that the tailbone is the remains of what used to be a monkey's tail... My son said that his daddy told him that the so-called tailbone is essential for people to be able to sit up properly, which the bio teacher was a pain in the ass about that...Quest
November 26, 2014
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From keiths
I kept coming up with these great arguments against Mormonism, only to realize that with a few modifications, they worked equally well against my own Christianity! That realization was one of the things that got me started on the path to reconversion.
Well, I for one am very glad that it seems that the one who fooled keith_s into taking the path of rejecting the truth and believing anything was none other than keith_s.JDH
November 26, 2014
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ppolish, I have not seen that scene in years! It is still just as funny. And I love the very last line in this scene, "Any sign, I will keep a look out for it". Makes my point fit even better. Thanks for that!ringo
November 26, 2014
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Ringo, "in the meantime I'll put you in the closet" lol. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mkcKQmr7kRcppolish
November 26, 2014
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I tell them “if you think you’ve found a whiz-bang argument against your opponent’s position, stop for a minute and ask yourself a simple question: Could this argument be used against me?”
Of course. Obviously keith is ignorant of the fact that his is the position that says it has a step-by-step mechanism for producing the diversity of life, whereas ID has a step-by-step mechanism for determining nature, operating freely from signs of intelligent design. We have our side covered whereas keith's is unknown. Just think what would happen if archaeologists, forensic scientists and SETI had to know who and how before they could determine intelligent design was present (in the form of artifacts, crimes and specified narrow-band transmissions)? Hopefully keith isn't in the investigation business...Joe
November 26, 2014
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keiths @ 41. It is you who fails to understand the tu quoque fallacy. From Wiki: "It attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it." You have done this twice in the space of this comment thread.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2014
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The more I learn about the inner workings of a cell the more I become humbled at the mind behind it all. I do not think the question is whether there is a mind behind all of this. To ask such a question is so absurd it leaves me quite puzzled. It reminds me of scene out of a movie that I watched as a young boy in high school. I think it was called "The Man with Two Brains" starring Steven Martin. There was a scene in which he is staring at a picture of his dead wife and then proceeds to ask her if she approves of his new girlfriend. He says, "any sign at all". At that very moment the picture begins to spin, the house begins to shake and loud voices start yelling, NO,NO,NO!!!! Once all of that comes to a stopping point, he then says something like, "just give me one sign, any sign at all". This scene still cracks me up just thinking about it!! My point is that Darwinist do the exact same thing. No matter how improbable something is and how huge the "sign" - they still have to say (because they cannot allow a "divine foot in the door"), "give me one sign, any sign at all".ringo
November 26, 2014
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keith s, Obviously, when I said "methodological naturalism (random forces of physics, chemistry, etc.)", I wasn't defining mn, I was providing a list of forces available to mn - as should have been clear from the context of the following phrase: "is not capable of such intricate design". I apologize - now that I know you are not a contextual reader, I will provide more explicit detail when aiming my comments in your direction.
2) Keith S seems to think that the argument “methodological naturalism (random forces of physics, chemistry, etc.)is not capable of such intricate design” is somehow also an argument against the belief that “an intelligent designer (far more intelligent than humans) must have designed it”. Huh? How did you come up with that?
Again, context apparently means nothing to you, so let me spell it out: 1) The title of the post, and the point of the content of the post is: "On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism". 2) Your first comment is "I tell them “if you think you’ve found a whiz-bang argument against your opponent’s position, stop for a minute and ask yourself a simple question: Could this argument be used against me?”". Logical conclusion: Keith S believes that the argument that naturalism is incapable of creating the cell, is also an argument against ID, which believes that an Intelligent Agent is capable of creating the cell. If you are referring to some other argument, perhaps you should be a bit more explicit - e.g. "I'm not referring to the post above at all, I'm just going to make a generally negative remark about ID proponents and religion here". Since the logical conclusion above makes no sense whatsoever, and the alternative (generally rude remark apropos of nothing) also seems to make no sense, I therefore assumed (and stated) that I have no idea what you are talking about when you say vjt is making an argument that works just as well against the ID position. Care to enlighten? Or would you prefer to continue non-responsive snarking? Either is fine by me.drc466
November 26, 2014
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Barry, I don't think you understand the tu quoque fallacy. Do you think that naturalism and theism are both false, since neither can supply the "steenkin' details" you require?keith s
November 26, 2014
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keiths, the poverty of your project is revealed when the best argument you can come up with is a tu quoque fallacy.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2014
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Upon reflection Graham2?s argument is the ultimate black box argument. “Don’t bother me with questions about the steenkin’ details. I don’t need no steenkin’ details. I have this shiny black box.”
Says Barry, who of course can supply all the "steenkin' details" about how the designer designed and implemented the cell. Right, Barry? You might want to reread my comment #2:
I keep offering free advice to IDers that they never accept. I tell them “if you think you’ve found a whiz-bang argument against your opponent’s position, stop for a minute and ask yourself a simple question: Could this argument be used against me?”
Give it a try, Barry. It will save you some embarrassment.keith s
November 26, 2014
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drc466:
2) Keith S seems to think that the argument “methodological naturalism (random forces of physics, chemistry, etc.)...
You might want to look up "methodological naturalism", drc466. It doesn't mean what you think it does.
2) Keith S seems to think that the argument “methodological naturalism (random forces of physics, chemistry, etc.)is not capable of such intricate design” is somehow also an argument against the belief that “an intelligent designer (far more intelligent than humans) must have designed it”.
Huh? How did you come up with that?
No idea what he is talking about.
That's for sure.keith s
November 26, 2014
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drc466 @ 36. Re Graham2. Indeed. Upon reflection Graham2's argument is the ultimate black box argument. "Don't bother me with questions about the steenkin' details. I don't need no steenkin' details. I have this shiny black box."Barry Arrington
November 26, 2014
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So, to recap: 1) Learned Hand fell back on the "argument from personal incredulity" defense. Not realizing that this means his position is simply one of "argument from personal credulity", or faith (ably explained by BA in #25). 2) Keith S seems to think that the argument "methodological naturalism (random forces of physics, chemistry, etc.) is not capable of such intricate design" is somehow also an argument against the belief that "an intelligent designer (far more intelligent than humans) must have designed it". No idea what he is talking about. 3) Graham2 seems to think that as long as we can computer-model some of the large scale effects of a thing, that we don't have to actually have an explanation for the precise details (this is another common evolutionist defense - "hey, I computer modeled eye evolution in 500 steps so it must be possible!"). 4) Evolve combines Learned Hand's faithpersonal credulity with the other Evolutionist favorite - unlimited extrapolation. Because natural selection explains why some animals go extinct, and chemistry explains when atoms bind, obviously the design and assemblage of something as fantastically complex as the cell is simply an exercise in chemistry. 5) Alicia operates on a completely different plane of consciousness than I do, so I'm not entirely sure what her point is. I think she is saying that she's perfectly okay with saying that "I don't know" is compatible with "but methodological naturalism is still the only correct answer until you prove an intelligence was involved". Which, at the end of the day, goes back to BA's post in 25. Oh - and the evolutionist talking point of "if ID can't tell me anything about the designer, then it has nothing important to say about design detection".drc466
November 26, 2014
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@Box #33: 'How about information?' 'Pass ....'Axel
November 26, 2014
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I will refrain from coupling my well wishing with a sneer, as I consider that to be unseemly. Mission not accomplished, but I appreciate that you tried!Learned Hand
November 26, 2014
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Evolve: We have never observed any supernatural force tinkering with nature, past or present.
How about information?Box
November 26, 2014
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With mounting evidence of fine tuning from the smallest scales to the largest scales, how long before the Question of Evil is joined by a companion question - Why would God be such a show off? Checkmate Theists.ppolish
November 26, 2014
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Learned Hand, Happy Thanksgiving to you as well. I will refrain from coupling my well wishing with a sneer, as I consider that to be unseemly.Barry Arrington
November 26, 2014
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