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On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism

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I have sometimes had the idea that the best way for Intelligent Design advocates to make their case would be to build a giant museum replicating the complexity of the cell on a large scale, so that people could see for themselves how the cell worked and draw their own conclusions. Recently I came across an old quote from biochemist Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Adler and Adler, 1985) which put paid to that idea, but which raised an interesting philosophical puzzle for people who adhere to scientific naturalism – which I define here as the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature]. Here is the first part of the quote from Denton, which I had seen before (h/t Matt Chait):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.

We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules.

We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology.

What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle. (pp. 328 ff.)

Reading this passage vindicated my belief that a museum of the cell would be a great way to promote ID. “If we build it, they will come,” I thought. But there was more to follow, which I hadn’t read before. It turns out that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:

To gain a more objective grasp of the level of complexity the cell represents, consider the problem of constructing an atomic model. Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid.

Copying nature, we could speed up the construction of the model by using small molecules such as amino acids and nucleotides rather than individual atoms. Since individual amino acids and nucleotides are made up of between ten and twenty atoms each, this would enable us to finish the project in less than five million years. We could also speed up the project by mass producing those components in the cell which are present in many copies. Perhaps three-quarters of the cell’s mass can be accounted for by such components. But even if we could produce these very quickly we would still be faced with manufacturing a quarter of the cell’s mass which consists largely of components which only occur once or twice and which would have to be constructed, therefore, on an individual basis. The complexity of the cell, like that of any complex machine, cannot be reduced to any sort of simple pattern, nor can its manufacture be reduced to a simple set of algorithms or programmes. Working continually day and night it would still be difficult to finish the model in the space of one million years. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

But there’s more, as Matt Chait points out (emphasis mine):

And let me add my two cents to this astounding picture. The model that you would complete a million years later would be just that, a lifeless static model. For the cell to do its work this entire twenty kilometer structure and each of its trillions of components must be charged in specific ways, and at the level of the protein molecule, it must have an entire series of positive and negative charges and hydrophobic and hydrophilic parts all precisely shaped (at a level of precision far, far beyond our highest technical abilities) and charged in a whole series of ways: charged in a way to find other molecular components and combine with them; charged in a way to fold into a shape and maintain that most important shape, and charged in a way to be guided by other systems of charges to the precise spot in the cell where that particle must go. The pattern of charges and the movement of energy through the cell is easily as complex as the pattern of the physical particles themselves.

Also, Denton, in his discussion, uses a tennis ball to stand in for an atom. But an atom is not a ball. It is not even a ‘tiny solar system’ of neutrons, protons and electrons’ as we once thought. Rather, it has now been revealed to be an enormously complex lattice of forces connected by a bewildering array of utterly miniscule subatomic particles including hadrons, leptons, bosons, fermions, mesons, baryons, quarks and anti-quarks, up and down quarks, top and bottom quarks, charm quarks, strange quarks, virtual quarks, valence quarks, gluons and sea quarks…

And let me remind you again, that what we are talking about, a living cell, is a microscopic dot and thousands of these entire factories including all the complexity that we discussed above could fit on the head of a pin. Or, going another way, let’s add to this model of twenty square kilometers of breath taking complexity another one hundred trillion equally complex factories all working in perfect synchronous coordination with each other; which would be a model of the one hundred trillion celled human body, your body, that thing that we lug around every day and complain about; that would, spread laterally at the height of one cell at this magnification, blanket the entire surface of the earth four thousand times over, every part of which would contain pumps and coils and conduits and memory banks and processing centers; all working in perfect harmony with each other, all engineered to an unimaginable level of precision and all there to deliver to us our ability to be conscious, to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, and to experience the world as we are so used to experiencing it, that we have taken it and the fantastic mechanisms that make it possible for granted.

My question is, “Why don’t we know this?” What Michael Denton has written and I have added to is a perfectly accurate, easily intelligible, non-hyperbolic view of the cell. Why is this not taught in every introductory biology class in our schools?

Based on the foregoing, I think it’s fair to say that we’ll never be able to construct a computer model of the cell either, down to the atomic level: the computing resources required would just be too huge. And in that case, it will never be scientifically possible to model a natural process (or a set of processes) and demonstrate that it could have given rise to the cell – or even show that it had a greater than 50% probability of doing so.

So here’s my question for the skeptics: if we have no hope of ever proving the idea that the cell could have arisen through unguided natural processes, or even showing this idea to be probably true, then how can we possibly be said to know for a fact that this actually happened? Knowledge, after all, isn’t merely a true belief; it has to be a justified true belief. What could justify the claim that abiogenesis actually occurred?

It gets worse. We cannot legitimately be said to know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that life could have arisen via unguided processes. But if we don’t know the latter, then we cannot know the former. Ergo, scientific naturalism, even if were true, can never be known to be true.

There’s more. Scientific naturalists are fond of claiming that there are only two valid sources of knowledge: a priori truths of logic and mathematics, which can be known through reason alone; and a posteriori empirical truths, which are known as a result of experience and/or scientific inquiry. The statement that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance on the primordial Earth is neither a truth of logic and mathematics nor a truth which can be demonstrated (or even shown to be probable) via experience and/or scientific inquiry. And since we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance, it follows that the truth of scientific naturalism cannot be known through either of the two avenues of knowledge postulated by the skeptic. So either there must be some third source of knowledge (intuition, perhaps?) that the skeptic has to fall back on. Yeah, right.

And please, don’t tell me, “Well, scientists have explained X, Y and Z, so it’s only a matter of time before they can explain life.” First, that’s illicit reasoning: performing inductive logic over a set of things is problematic enough (black swans, anyone?), but performing it over a set of scientific theories, concocted during a time-span of just 471 years – the Scientific Revolution is commonly held to have begun in 1543 – is absolutely ridiculous. And second, as I’ve argued above, there’s good reason to believe that our computing resources will never be up to the task of showing that the first living cell could have arisen via a natural, unguided process.

One last question: if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?

Checkmate, naturalists? Over to you.

Comments
Me_Think and Zachriel, Neither of you addressed my main point. I wasn't even arguing that ID is true (although I reserve the right to do so). I was merely responding to the objection of "who is the designer." That's all I was doing.Collin
November 27, 2014
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Joe, Happy Thanksgiving Me_Think
November 27, 2014
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Me Think- My comment pertains to all evolutionists. Dembski has used it to infer design, no one can refute that inference and that bothers you. Happy ThanksgivingJoe
November 27, 2014
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Seeing that we only look for an intelligent designer AFTER we have determined the existence of intelligent design, the argument that ID is lame because it does not identify the intelligent designer is lame at best and demonstrates ignorance with respect to investigative processes. Intelligent Design is about determining AND studying intelligent designs in nature. And guess what: Reality dictates that in the absence of direct observation the ONLY POSIBBLE way to make any scientific claims about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design(s) and all relevant evidence. That our opponents refuse to grasp that scientific fact demonstrates that they are on an anti-science crusade.Joe
November 27, 2014
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Joe @ 114 And that includes Dembski himself.Me_Think
November 27, 2014
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We do not know how the Antikythera Mechanism was made. We do not know who made it and we do not know what tools were used to make it. By Zachriel's logic we should doubt that it is an artifact. :roll:Joe
November 27, 2014
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CSI is only inadequate when in the hands of the incompetent.Joe
November 27, 2014
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EugeneS: I am saying that inherent here is the issue of interpretation of results. In science, interpretation means support or falsification for a given hypothesis. No one of note claims to have solved the riddle of the origin of life, however, there have been many scientific advances made during research into abiogenesis. Collin: Let’s say on Mars we discover a tablet with a bunch of unknown scripts/characters of the same font carved into it. You mean something consistent with known human design? Then we would posit something consistent with a human-like entity. Then we would test this entailment by determining how the artifact was made, looking for other artifacts known to be associated with human-like entities, such as tools or settlements, and if possible direct evidence of the entity.Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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Collin @ 110 ID claims to detect only design but CSI, which is supposed to do that, is woefully inadequate. As for the Mars example, you are giving an example of an obviously designed artifact. Biological process and structures are not obviously designed and therein lies the problem.For eg, if you look at a protein even through a Scanning Electron Microscope, all you will see is a squiggly tubular structure. Your personal incredulity of the iterative process that created the structure cannot be the basis for deciding whether it was designed or not.Me_Think
November 27, 2014
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"I keep offering free advice to IDers that they never accept. I tell them if you think you’ve found a whiz-bang argument against your opponent’s position, stop for a minute and ask yourself a simple question: Could this argument be used against me?" If that even were so why would/should IDers abandon it if it shows ID to be equally rational -especially when its the position of said opponents that ID is less rational? So at best your counter, even if it were valid, shows its still a whiz-bang argument against the opponent's position.mikeenders
November 27, 2014
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Keiths and others, I understand your objection that ID theory does not identify the designer or explain how he interfered with nature/life. I think the objection has some merit. But I think it needs to be kept in mind that ID theory is not like Darwinism or Creationism. It does not attempt to explain EVERYTHING. It does not assert a worldview or necessarily explain the origin of species. Indeed, it does not attempt to explain the origin of the bacterial flagellum. It merely, and humbly, asks the narrow question: Can we detect design? It may be that the bacterial flagellum came about mostly through unguided processes, but that we can detect that design must have been part of the process. ID theorists are attempting to work out the processes, tests, and theories that we would use to decide when an artifact of unknown origin was designed, regardless of who the designer was or how he did the design. Let me give an example: Let's say on Mars we discover a tablet with a bunch of unknown scripts/characters of the same font carved into it. In order to know if it were designed or a natural event, I don't think we need to identify the writer or explain how he came about, or explain how their language evolved over time or even explain what the message is to make the conclusion that it was designed. Same thing with life, imo.Collin
November 27, 2014
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Would you like to ignore your own answers, and try having a go at the original question again?
No.
Lol this is just hilarious, do you know what the definition of SELF PORTRAIT is?
Your question was 'who painted the painter?'. I supplied the answer Self Portrait.
Why did you change the word painter for the word created? Are you seriously admiting that painters have to be created?
Yes, because not everyone can be a painter.You need to teach and guide a child before he can become a painter , or ID has to create a preordained painter.Me_Think
November 27, 2014
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Zachriel #105 No, I am not making that particular claim about that particular researcher. I am saying that inherent here is the issue of interpretation of results. Sometimes, interpretations are unwarranted and do not correspond to what has actually been achieved. See e.g.
D.L. Abel, J.T.Trevors "Self-organization vs. self-ordering events in life-origin models" Physics of Life Reviews 3 (2006) 211-228.
EugeneS
November 27, 2014
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Me_Think, "logically_speaking @ 91 1. Does that make the painter a “Necessary being”? No. Another painter who doesn’t want to be painted will do". Lol this is just hilarious, do you know what the definition of SELF PORTRAIT is? A self-portrait is a representation of an artist, drawn, painted, photographed, or sculpted by the artist. Another painter who doesn’t want to be painted will certainly not do, as that will become just a normal portrait. "2. Does it create an infinite regress? Yes. The painter has to be created by someone who needs to be created by someone…[Question is Where did the painter come from ?]" Why did you change the word painter for the word created? Are you seriously admiting that painters have to be created? Do you understand what you just did? Would you like to ignore your own answers, and try having a go at the original question again?logically_speaking
November 27, 2014
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Querius wrote: "...However, your son’s biology teacher could actually be an evolutionary fundamentalist (oh oh) and might still be teaching discredited ideas such as ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, and the evolution of peppered moths, Darwin’s finches, and ring species..." As far as I know, most schools in Canada still teach the above mentioned by you... As far as I know, nothing has changed and nothing will despite the claims that things are changing...The old crap is still taught and like one reasonable biology teacher said; "...without the finches, the pepper moth, and the rest of the "icons of evolution" there is nothing else to teach about evolution...only nonsense...Quest
November 27, 2014
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EugeneS: People conflate order with organization and present as genuine results that bear a footprint of their own involvement in experiments. Are you saying scientists who study abiogenesis, such as Jack Szostak, don't know how to run an experiment? http://molbio.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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Evolve @ 100.
Science only works on testable hypotheses and evidence
Here is a hypothesis for you:
No force outside of nature has ever acted within nature across the entire universe from the moment of the big bang until now.
Obviously this hypothesis cannot be tested as Popper noted. Therefore, it is not science by your own definition.Barry Arrington
November 27, 2014
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Evolve:
Science only works on testable hypotheses and evidence
And that is why unguided evolution is not science. Thank you, Evolve.Joe
November 27, 2014
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Evolve:
Science only works on testable hypotheses and evidence
Then unguided evolution is not science. Thank you Evolve.Joe
November 27, 2014
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Zachriel @ 98 Mathematics is a language. It can express lots of ideas, not necessarily practically warranted e.g. models of spontaneous organization of life. The creators of these models take for granted what should not be taken for granted to stay fair. People conflate order with organization and present as genuine results that bear a footprint of their own involvement in experiments.EugeneS
November 27, 2014
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Bob @ 90 /// To be fair, you could posit a shy supernatural tinkerer which avoids being detected, so miracles can happen but not when they can be documented. /// No, this is useless. If there’s no way you can identify and define the tinkerer, then he has zero explanatory power. You can fit such a tinkerer to any evidence you want because he’s completely unknown. This is exactly the mechanism by which creationists of all kinds operate and that’s why their arguments always fail. /// I like the distinction of naturalism into philosophical and methodological flavours. Science uses methodological naturalism, i.e. for the purposes of doing science we only use naturalistic explanations. /// False distinction. Science only works on testable hypotheses and evidence - whether they’re natural or not. Science can also propose testable hypothesis for the supernatural. The only requirement is that there should be evidence to support the supernatural hypothesis.Evolve
November 27, 2014
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Naturalism is not the scientific method, in fact the scientific method itself cannot be reduced to naturalism. Moreover, naturalism leads to the epistemological failure of science. For atheists to arbitrarily impose naturalistic answers onto science prior to investigation, with their insistence on 'methodological naturalism', is self serving in the least and outright dishonest when looked at objectively!bornagain77
November 27, 2014
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Querius: The mutual dependency of geology and paleontology regarding dating fossils with respect to evolution Geology has the principle of superposition. Paleontology has fossil succession. Physics has radiometric dating. Biology has branching descent. So we have four separate lines of evidence which point to the same result. In science, having independent measures adds confidence to a theory. Querius: The resemblance between van Helmont’s recipe for the spontaneous generation of mice to explanations of the origin of life Helmont reported an erroneous observation of spontaneous generation. Modern research into abiogenesis is well grounded in science, and no one of note has claimed to know the details of how life began. Querius: The astounding number and complexity of the chemical cycles in cells As Darwin proposed a theory to explain complex adaptation, pointing to complex adaptation doesn't falsify the theory. Querius: Your son’s biology teacher is misinformed about the existence of “vestigial” organs. Being vestigial does not mean it has no function. "An organ, serving for two purposes, may become rudimentary or utterly aborted for one, even the more important purpose, and remain perfectly efficient for the other." — Darwin, "Origin of Species" Gary S. Gaulin: Science does not care whether we adhere to the philosophical belief of Naturalism or not. That's very true. You can be a Catholic or a Buddhist or an atheist, and still be a scientist. You just have to follow the scientific method when wearing your scientist smock.Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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How can ID be the default when other alternatives are given active consideration first? Add the word "default" to the list of things evos are ignorant of.Joe
November 27, 2014
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keith is proudly ignorant:
My point is that Vincent is applying the usual ID double standard by demanding detailed explanations from the naturalist, while failing to provide any details at all for ID.
LoL! keith's is the position that sez it has a step-by-step process and all we are doing is asking to see it. No one can show it so keith has a hissy fit. As for ID we say we have a step-by-step process for determining nature, operating freely and intelligent design. And we have provided it. keith s, proud top be an ignorant loser.Joe
November 27, 2014
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On the state of the argument about the ultimate cause - Nothing is settled rationally, so what? It never will. There is no end to rational wrestling. I have been observing the debate for quite a while now. IN my opinion, it simply shouts to us that our world is based on belief. We have to make choices. We necessarily do so in our daily life. We just have to face the fact we need to do it with respect to answering the eternal questions of who we are and why we are around here. Science cannot prove or disprove anything. It is a rational delusion to think otherwise. Science just offers indicators. Indicators are indicators, nothing more. The ultimate decision is down to our free will.EugeneS
November 27, 2014
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Seversky at 80, your hand waving that the infinite regress does not present much of a problem for materialism rings very hollow since we now know for a fact that the entire material universe came instantaneously into being at a definite moment in the past in the Big Bang.
"Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy." Robert Jastrow – Founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute – Pg.15 ‘God and the Astronomers’ The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole. Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics - co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation - as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978 “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis” Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation “There is no ground for supposing that matter and energy existed before and was suddenly galvanized into action. For what could distinguish that moment from all other moments in eternity? It is simpler to postulate creation ex nihilo — Divine will constituting Nature from nothingness.” Jastrow – God and The Astronomers http://www.unfitnews.com/authors/RJga6ReligionScience.html
Moreover, we now also know that not only did energy and matter come into being in the Big Bang but space-time itself came into being.
Big Bang Theory - An Overview of the main evidence Excerpt: Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 Steven W. Hawking, George F.R. Ellis, "The Cosmic Black-Body Radiation and the Existence of Singularities in our Universe," Astrophysical Journal, 152, (1968) pp. 25-36. Steven W. Hawking, Roger Penrose, "The Singularities of Gravitational Collapse and Cosmology," Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, series A, 314 (1970) pp. 529-548. http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
Seversky, the SCIENTIFIC evidence that all material reality, and space-time itself, came instantaneously into being, is, despite your handwaving to the contrary, very, VERY, impressive empirical confirmation that the infinite regress argument was/is a devastating logical problem for materialists. ,,, Moreover, we find that the necessary cause for the universe, according to the scientific evidence itself, must possess many of the very same characteristics that Theologians have always traditionally held that God possesses.
What Properties Must the Cause of the Universe Have? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SZWInkDIVI
Moreover, as if all that was not devastating enough for the committed atheist/materialist to deal with, quantum mechanics goes one step further and stops the infinite regress dead in its tracks by showing the continued existence of material reality (i.e. the visible) is dependent on a cause that transcends space-time (i.e. the invisible):
God, Immanuel Kant, Richard Dawkins, and the Quantum - Antoine Suarez - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQOwMX4bCqk&index=1&list=UUVmgTa2vbopdjpMNAQBqXHw
As to your personal opinion about Christian theology, other than me being unimpressed, I'll hold my peace for now since you have yet to present ANY scientific evidence whatsoever that materialism/atheism is even remotely compatible to the scientific evidence that we now have in hand. (thus why should your further personal speculations in Christian theology have any of my respect?) In case you don't realize it Seversky, that IS NOT a minor concern for the integrity of your position! Verse and Music:
Colossians 1 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. How Sweet The Sound - Citizen Way http://myktis.com/songs/how-sweet-the-sound/
bornagain77
November 27, 2014
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Denton’s image doesn’t work because the individual components of the model cell, scaled up to the size of a city, would be utterly devoid of the atomic, chemical, electrodynamic, energetic and stochastic forces and interactions that mediate the functioning of the real thing. This is inadvertently hinted by Chait’s remark on Denton:
“For the cell to do its work this entire twenty kilometer structure and each of its trillions of components must be charged in specific ways, and at the level of the protein molecule, it must have an entire series of positive and negative charges and hydrophobic and hydrophilic parts all precisely shaped (at a level of precision far, far beyond our highest technical abilities) and charged in a whole series of ways:”
The fact that the simulation Denton envisions would require this additional work - and massive amounts of it - is indicative of the complete inappropriateness his imagined model as a functional simulation of an actual living cell. The image also suggests arrays of machine-like, and hence artifact-like, components visualizable as static, stable macrophysical objects, when the reality of the chemical and atomic components is very, very different. Given that Denton’s imagined model badly mischaracterizes the phenomenon it purports to model, why should we be impressed by it, or draw implications from it about anything?Reciprocating Bill
November 27, 2014
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logically_speaking @ 91 1. Does that make the painter a “Necessary being”? No. Another painter who doesn't want to be painted will do. 2. Does it create an infinite regress? Yes. The painter has to be created by someone who needs to be created by someone...[Question is Where did the painter come from ?]Me_Think
November 27, 2014
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Me_Think, logically_speaking @ 87 Who painted the painter? "Self Portrait by looking into a mirror". Good answer, so relating it back to why the answers to the question WDTD and my WPTP are the same, 1. Does that make the painter a "Necessary being"? Yes it does. 2. Does it create an infinite regress? No it does not. Anyone else want to answer the question of who painted the painter?logically_speaking
November 27, 2014
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