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On the impossibility of replicating the cell: A problem for naturalism

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I have sometimes had the idea that the best way for Intelligent Design advocates to make their case would be to build a giant museum replicating the complexity of the cell on a large scale, so that people could see for themselves how the cell worked and draw their own conclusions. Recently I came across an old quote from biochemist Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (Adler and Adler, 1985) which put paid to that idea, but which raised an interesting philosophical puzzle for people who adhere to scientific naturalism – which I define here as the view that there is nothing outside the natural world, by which I mean the sum total of everything that behaves in accordance with scientific laws [or laws of Nature]. Here is the first part of the quote from Denton, which I had seen before (h/t Matt Chait):

To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell.

We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules.

We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology.

What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle. (pp. 328 ff.)

Reading this passage vindicated my belief that a museum of the cell would be a great way to promote ID. “If we build it, they will come,” I thought. But there was more to follow, which I hadn’t read before. It turns out that we can’t build a replica of the cell, down to the atomic level:

To gain a more objective grasp of the level of complexity the cell represents, consider the problem of constructing an atomic model. Altogether a typical cell contains about ten million million atoms. Suppose we choose to build an exact replica to a scale one thousand million times that of the cell so that each atom of the model would be the size of a tennis ball. Constructing such a model at the rate of one atom per minute, it would take fifty million years to finish, and the object we would end up with would be the giant factory, described above, some twenty kilometres in diameter, with a volume thousands of times that of the Great Pyramid.

Copying nature, we could speed up the construction of the model by using small molecules such as amino acids and nucleotides rather than individual atoms. Since individual amino acids and nucleotides are made up of between ten and twenty atoms each, this would enable us to finish the project in less than five million years. We could also speed up the project by mass producing those components in the cell which are present in many copies. Perhaps three-quarters of the cell’s mass can be accounted for by such components. But even if we could produce these very quickly we would still be faced with manufacturing a quarter of the cell’s mass which consists largely of components which only occur once or twice and which would have to be constructed, therefore, on an individual basis. The complexity of the cell, like that of any complex machine, cannot be reduced to any sort of simple pattern, nor can its manufacture be reduced to a simple set of algorithms or programmes. Working continually day and night it would still be difficult to finish the model in the space of one million years. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

But there’s more, as Matt Chait points out (emphasis mine):

And let me add my two cents to this astounding picture. The model that you would complete a million years later would be just that, a lifeless static model. For the cell to do its work this entire twenty kilometer structure and each of its trillions of components must be charged in specific ways, and at the level of the protein molecule, it must have an entire series of positive and negative charges and hydrophobic and hydrophilic parts all precisely shaped (at a level of precision far, far beyond our highest technical abilities) and charged in a whole series of ways: charged in a way to find other molecular components and combine with them; charged in a way to fold into a shape and maintain that most important shape, and charged in a way to be guided by other systems of charges to the precise spot in the cell where that particle must go. The pattern of charges and the movement of energy through the cell is easily as complex as the pattern of the physical particles themselves.

Also, Denton, in his discussion, uses a tennis ball to stand in for an atom. But an atom is not a ball. It is not even a ‘tiny solar system’ of neutrons, protons and electrons’ as we once thought. Rather, it has now been revealed to be an enormously complex lattice of forces connected by a bewildering array of utterly miniscule subatomic particles including hadrons, leptons, bosons, fermions, mesons, baryons, quarks and anti-quarks, up and down quarks, top and bottom quarks, charm quarks, strange quarks, virtual quarks, valence quarks, gluons and sea quarks…

And let me remind you again, that what we are talking about, a living cell, is a microscopic dot and thousands of these entire factories including all the complexity that we discussed above could fit on the head of a pin. Or, going another way, let’s add to this model of twenty square kilometers of breath taking complexity another one hundred trillion equally complex factories all working in perfect synchronous coordination with each other; which would be a model of the one hundred trillion celled human body, your body, that thing that we lug around every day and complain about; that would, spread laterally at the height of one cell at this magnification, blanket the entire surface of the earth four thousand times over, every part of which would contain pumps and coils and conduits and memory banks and processing centers; all working in perfect harmony with each other, all engineered to an unimaginable level of precision and all there to deliver to us our ability to be conscious, to see, to hear, to smell, to taste, and to experience the world as we are so used to experiencing it, that we have taken it and the fantastic mechanisms that make it possible for granted.

My question is, “Why don’t we know this?” What Michael Denton has written and I have added to is a perfectly accurate, easily intelligible, non-hyperbolic view of the cell. Why is this not taught in every introductory biology class in our schools?

Based on the foregoing, I think it’s fair to say that we’ll never be able to construct a computer model of the cell either, down to the atomic level: the computing resources required would just be too huge. And in that case, it will never be scientifically possible to model a natural process (or a set of processes) and demonstrate that it could have given rise to the cell – or even show that it had a greater than 50% probability of doing so.

So here’s my question for the skeptics: if we have no hope of ever proving the idea that the cell could have arisen through unguided natural processes, or even showing this idea to be probably true, then how can we possibly be said to know for a fact that this actually happened? Knowledge, after all, isn’t merely a true belief; it has to be a justified true belief. What could justify the claim that abiogenesis actually occurred?

It gets worse. We cannot legitimately be said to know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that life could have arisen via unguided processes. But if we don’t know the latter, then we cannot know the former. Ergo, scientific naturalism, even if were true, can never be known to be true.

There’s more. Scientific naturalists are fond of claiming that there are only two valid sources of knowledge: a priori truths of logic and mathematics, which can be known through reason alone; and a posteriori empirical truths, which are known as a result of experience and/or scientific inquiry. The statement that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance on the primordial Earth is neither a truth of logic and mathematics nor a truth which can be demonstrated (or even shown to be probable) via experience and/or scientific inquiry. And since we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true unless we know that abiogenesis occurred without intelligent guidance, it follows that the truth of scientific naturalism cannot be known through either of the two avenues of knowledge postulated by the skeptic. So either there must be some third source of knowledge (intuition, perhaps?) that the skeptic has to fall back on. Yeah, right.

And please, don’t tell me, “Well, scientists have explained X, Y and Z, so it’s only a matter of time before they can explain life.” First, that’s illicit reasoning: performing inductive logic over a set of things is problematic enough (black swans, anyone?), but performing it over a set of scientific theories, concocted during a time-span of just 471 years – the Scientific Revolution is commonly held to have begun in 1543 – is absolutely ridiculous. And second, as I’ve argued above, there’s good reason to believe that our computing resources will never be up to the task of showing that the first living cell could have arisen via a natural, unguided process.

One last question: if we cannot know that scientific naturalism is true or even probably true, then why should we believe it?

Checkmate, naturalists? Over to you.

Comments
RDFish:
The essential confusion of ID is the assumption that there are two different types of causes in the world.
False. RDFish:
ID calls the first type of cause “natural causes”, meaning “causes that proceed according physical law”.
False. RDFish:
The second type of cause it calls “intelligent causes”, which is supposed not to follow physical law.
False. RDFish:
ID attempts to show that certain features of the universe cannot have arisen by means of “natural causes”, and this supposedly justifies the conclusion that these features are best explained by “intelligent causes”.
False. Wow. Four consecutive statements not one of which is true. How do you manager that?Mung
November 27, 2014
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Pachyaena, I haven't described life forms in a mechanical way. I have described the mechanical aspect of the component of an organism. In a similar way I could describe the mechanics involved in someone landing a punch without going into an details about their motives, the history behind the event, etc. What do you see that is wrong with describing the mechanics of a physical system?CharlieM
November 27, 2014
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zac says, You haven’t even shown that. I say, Well that is the rub then. I feel confident that I have you think I haven't. How can we settle such a profound disagreement. I know, let's do science Get to work on an algorithm that can fool an observer and put it to the test peacefifthmonarchyman
November 27, 2014
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Pachyaena: why is that you IDers describe life forms in such mechanistic ways while also claiming that intelligent design is not mechanistic and that the ‘ID inference’ is not a ‘mechanistic theory’? It's like there should be a little homunculus building his outboard inboard motor flagellum.Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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CharlieM: The bacterial flagellum contains a motor with stator and rotor, a clutch, a drive shaft connected to a propellor via a universal joint. If you were to propose humans as the designer, you would have to show means and opportunity. We can reject a human designer. In other proposing a designer has entailments. If there is an artifact, then there is a causal chain linking that artifact to the art and to the artisan. We have a great deal of evidence supporting evolution. If evolution were also responsible for the flagellum, it might be hard to find evidence because it is such an ancient structure, and hasn't left fossils. However, we could predict that the components in the flagellum also evolved, and that cousins of those components might be found in the cell.Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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CharlieM, why is that you IDers describe life forms in such mechanistic ways while also claiming that intelligent design is not mechanistic and that the 'ID inference' is not a 'mechanistic theory'?Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: I’m not saying any of this has to be magical just non-Algorithmic. You haven't even shown that. fifthmonarchyman: Can a physical process like an analog neural net interact with a larger system in any way besides Algorithmically? A neural net can receive and communicate non-algorithmically. Neutral nets can interact with other neural nets. fifthmonarchyman: If not then does the overall system containing a feature like an analog neural net become de facto algorithmic? Even if the neural net is a robot that interacts with the world algorithmically, its decision-making can be non-computable.Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman, are you're claiming that nothing in or about the universe is an algorithm and that nothing in or about the universe is caused by or dependent on any algorithm, except algorithms invented by humans?Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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Zac, Have I shown you this http://www.blythinstitute.org/images/data/attachments/0000/0041/bartlett1.pdf check it outfifthmonarchyman
November 27, 2014
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Zachriel @ 113 Collin: Let’s say on Mars we discover a tablet with a bunch of unknown scripts/characters of the same font carved into it. Zachriel: You mean something consistent with known human design? Then we would posit something consistent with a human-like entity. Me: The bacterial flagellum contains a motor with stator and rotor, a clutch, a drive shaft connected to a propellor via a universal joint. Do you think this is consistent with known human design?CharlieM
November 27, 2014
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Zac says, As we pointed out before, an analog neural net can exhibit non-computable behavior. Nothing magical about that. I say, I'm not saying any of this has to be magical just non-Algorithmic. I do have a question though. Can a physical process like an analog neural net interact with a larger system in any way besides Algorithmically? If not then does the overall system containing a feature like an analog neural net become de facto algorithmic? No argument just a question peacefifthmonarchyman
November 27, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman: “Certain features of the universe cannot ever be explained by means of any algorithmic cause. Therefore, some non-algorithmic cause must be responsible”. As we pointed out before, an analog neural net can exhibit non-computable behavior. Nothing magical about that. Vishnu: Humans, obviously, have insight, foresight, and goals. We can “project” into the future in ways that natural laws are not understood to do. Maybe “natural law” (whatever the hell that is) is ultimately responsible, but if you make that affirmative claim then it’s up to you to demonstrate it. While there's no 'proof', there is evidence that the brain is the seat of human consciousness, and that it works by physical principles. Furthermore, computers models show that physical processes can model and project.Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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Joe @ 115, Good point! Considering how much easier it is for the Antikythera mechanism to evolve by unguided chance in the ocean than a living cell billions of times more complex, we should actually be finding a lot more of these! However, since Darwinists like to claim that they just follow the data, why aren't they suggesting that quickly evolving bacteria evolved their biological environments that we call "animals" as their habitation? Instead, we get to read things like this:
New Zealand's "living dinosaur," the tuatara, hasn't changed its look in millions of years. But the reptile is actually evolving faster than any other animal studied so far, new DNA analysis reveals. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/03/080331-tuatara-evolution.html
Once again, the theory of evolution can accommodate ANY new data! -QQuerius
November 27, 2014
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Quest @ 106
As far as I know, nothing has changed and nothing will despite the claims that things are changing…The old crap is still taught and like one reasonable biology teacher said; “…without the finches, the pepper moth, and the rest of the “icons of evolution” there is nothing else to teach about evolution…only nonsense…
Exactly. I wish Darwinists were at least honest about what they've found and haven't found. I see no problem with following the data, but in general they cherry pick the data that they want to follow and ignore or marginalize the rest. The theory of evolution is not science. It's the opposite of science. It's a big squishy paradigm that can accommodate anything in retrospect. -QQuerius
November 27, 2014
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Zachriel @ 98, At their foundations, evolutionary biology, geology, and paleontology each point to their neighbor for credibility. The first polystrate fossils should have been sufficient to falsify the lot. But there's always a story that can be used to explain anything. Fine, but that's not science. You didn't get my irony regarding Von Helmont---the research into abiogenesis was also well--researched in Von Helmont's day . . . and in Pasteur's. Finally, please reread what I actually wrote about "vestigial" organs--I know that the concept has now been thrown under the bus by Darwinists on the assumption that ALL organs and biological structures are evolving, and thus are "vestigial." -QQuerius
November 27, 2014
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Pachyaena asks. what say you to the IDers who claim that algorithms, whether front loaded or later added/modified, are a or the mechanism of intelligent design-creation? I say, I say, I'm on your side. A non-algorithmic cause is more than capable of using algorithms to accomplish it's ends. I'm doing that right now as I type this post on a computer. peacefifthmonarchyman
November 27, 2014
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BA77 (125) Yes! That's the real story! Great links as always.Moose Dr
November 27, 2014
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Pachyaena to FMM: Why did you attribute a comment by RDFish to “Aiguy”?
Because it is the same person.Vishnu
November 27, 2014
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fifthmonarchyman, what say you to the IDers who claim that algorithms, whether front loaded or later added/modified, are a or the mechanism of intelligent design-creation? Why did you attribute a comment by RDFish to "Aiguy"?Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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RDFish, I think FMM has a point. Personally, (and I only speak for myself), I don't look at the issue as one of natural causes or non-natural causes. But the distinction between guided and unguided is real. Humans, obviously, have insight, foresight, and goals. We can "project" into the future in ways that natural laws are not understood to do. Maybe "natural law" (whatever the hell that is) is ultimately responsible, but if you make that affirmative claim then it's up to you to demonstrate it. Part of the "problem" is that we (that is, humans) have a certain "in the know" position here. We know, in a primary, fundamental, conscious way, that we have these powers of foresight and because of it can manipulate the rest of reality in ways not known to be possible by "blind natural law" (again, whatever the hell that is.) We (at least I do) see ourselves as somehow outside of the normal woof and warp of "blind" natural causation (causation that is not forward looking.) To deny that is to deny myself, which I'm not about to do, given that it is the most fundamental thing I know. ID (that is, humans using their reasoning powers in light of our own powers of foresight and comprehension of "natural forces") think that certain features of reality are better explained by something that has similar, if not expanded, powers of foresight by virtue of the fact that we see this in ourselves in a limited way. It's not so much as a metaphysical position, as a humanistic position. Dogs and chimps are not arguing over ID vs unguided emergence and evolution of life... nor do they "do science" in general. We cannot take ourselves out of the equation.Vishnu
November 27, 2014
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Aiguy says, what ID is left with is “Certain features of the universe cannot currently be explained by means of any known cause. Therefore, some other, currently unknown cause must be responsible”. I say, Not quite, as another thread has demonstrated ID is left with.. “Certain features of the universe cannot ever be explained by means of any algorithmic cause. Therefore, some non-algorithmic cause must be responsible”. That is quite a different statement is it not? peacefifthmonarchyman
November 27, 2014
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Me_Think, Me: Would you like to ignore your own answers, and try having a go at the original question again? You: No. My response: Fine, but now you will have to deal with the consequences. Me: Lol this is just hilarious, do you know what the definition of SELF PORTRAIT is? You: Your question was ‘who painted the painter?’. I supplied the answer Self Portrait. My response: But to the follow up question you changed your answer from a self portrait to a normal portrait. Which means you have two options you can change your original answer, in which case I will ask you another follow up question. Or you can stick with your self portrait and change your answer to the follow up question. You seem to want to stick with self portrait, which means that you cannot invoke any other agencies to do the painting apart from the painter (THE VERY DEFINITION OF SELF PORTRAIT). So again I ask you the follow up question, does that make the painter a “Necessary being”? Me: Why did you change the word painter for the word created? Are you seriously admiting that painters have to be created? You: Yes, because not everyone can be a painter. You need to teach and guide a child before he can become a painter , or ID has to create a preordained painter. My response: You didn't answer the question to why you changed the word painter to created. You are claiming it takes intelligence to be a painter, a self portrait in this case. You claim that you need to teach a child before they can paint. But why can't a painting be created by natural forces? How much information needs to be imparted specifically for the child to become a painter? Can you please show your math? Was this child the original painter in the original question? As for preordained painter, your self portrait answer actually requires it, maybe you will see that in time.logically_speaking
November 27, 2014
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Joe, how old are you?Pachyaena
November 27, 2014
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The essential confusion of ID is the assumption that there are two different types of causes in the world. ID calls the first type of cause "natural causes", meaning "causes that proceed according physical law". The second type of cause it calls "intelligent causes", which is supposed not to follow physical law. ID attempts to show that certain features of the universe cannot have arisen by means of "natural causes", and this supposedly justifies the conclusion that these features are best explained by "intelligent causes". The mistake, of course, is the assumption that there is any such thing as a cause that somehow transcends physical cause. ID often refers to physical processes as "unguided", implying that in contrast "intelligent causes" are "guided" by something that is not itself a physical process. But of course this notion that intelligent actions of living things transcend physical cause is nothing but a metaphysical assumption - empirically untestable, and highly controversial. The fact that ID is predicated on the reality of this dualism means that ID is an exercise in metaphysics and nothing more. Once you remove this metaphysical assumption from ID, what ID is left with is "Certain features of the universe cannot currently be explained by means of any known cause. Therefore, some other, currently unknown cause must be responsible".RDFish
November 27, 2014
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Seversky @ 80 Re: Infinite Regress (IR) versus uncaused first cause (UFC) Your post fails to note that while in the IR scenario particular events possess an infinite chain of causation, the entire system in total is uncaused. So with the IR scenario we have two irrational ideas to grapple with- infinite regress of particular events within an uncaused system. With the UFC we only have one- the uncaused ontology of the "prime mover." If we accept that there is an irrational brickwall, so to speak, that defies human reason, why is there a need to add infinite regress into the mix when a single irrational idea will suffice? The UFC idea is more philosophically parsimonious.Vishnu
November 27, 2014
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Moose Dr,, To Model the Simplest Microbe in the World, You Need 128 Computers - July 2012 Excerpt: Mycoplasma genitalium has one of the smallest genomes of any free-living organism in the world, clocking in at a mere 525 genes. That's a fraction of the size of even another bacterium like E. coli, which has 4,288 genes.,,, The bioengineers, led by Stanford's Markus Covert, succeeded in modeling the bacterium, and published their work last week in the journal Cell. What's fascinating is how much horsepower they needed to partially simulate this simple organism. It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell's lifecycle processes.,,, ,,the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable, and difficult to manage, even given Moore's Law. The M. genitalium model required 28 subsystems to be individually modeled and integrated, and many critics of the work have been complaining on Twitter that's only a fraction of what will eventually be required to consider the simulation realistic.,,, http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/ Simplest Microbes More Complex than Thought - Dec. 2009 Excerpt: PhysOrg reported that a species of Mycoplasma,, “The bacteria appeared to be assembled in a far more complex way than had been thought.” Many molecules were found to have multiple functions: for instance, some enzymes could catalyze unrelated reactions, and some proteins were involved in multiple protein complexes." http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev200912.htm#20091229a First-Ever Blueprint of 'Minimal Cell' Is More Complex Than Expected - Nov. 2009 Excerpt: A network of research groups,, approached the bacterium at three different levels. One team of scientists described M. pneumoniae's transcriptome, identifying all the RNA molecules, or transcripts, produced from its DNA, under various environmental conditions. Another defined all the metabolic reactions that occurred in it, collectively known as its metabolome, under the same conditions. A third team identified every multi-protein complex the bacterium produced, thus characterising its proteome organisation. "At all three levels, we found M. pneumoniae was more complex than we expected," http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091126173027.htm There’s No Such Thing as a ‘Simple’ Organism - November 2009 Excerpt: In short, there was a lot going on in lowly, supposedly simple M. pneumoniae, and much of it is beyond the grasp of what’s now known about cell function. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/11/basics-of-life/ Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to Biopolymeric Information - David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors - Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, page 8 "No man-made program comes close to the technical brilliance of even Mycoplasmal genetic algorithms. Mycoplasmas are the simplest known organism with the smallest known genome, to date. How was its genome and other living organisms' genomes programmed?" http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdfbornagain77
November 27, 2014
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Collins: Please define entailments. Implied as a necessary result. More specifically, empirical predictions deduced from a scientific hypothesis. For instance, if we assume a liquid is made up of molecules, what does that mean in terms of the motion of observable particles. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Brownian_motion_large.gifZachriel
November 27, 2014
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Zachriel, Please define entailments.Collin
November 27, 2014
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BA77, "But alas Moose Dr, the atheists/materialists, since the Greeks, are the ones who have been arguing for a simplistic, ‘bottom up’, atomic view of reality in the first place." You miss my points. I agree that the atom is complex, wizardly. However, it did not come into existence at the time of first life. Rather it is is rightly part of the miracle of first creation (presumed to be the big bang). Second, making the simplest possible case produces a case that is overwhelming. By jazzing it up with eukaryotes and sub-atomics, the case actually becomes harder to see.Moose Dr
November 27, 2014
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Collin: Neither of you addressed my main point. You were arguing for design without entailments. Your example had obvious entailments.Zachriel
November 27, 2014
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