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On the non-evolution of Irreducible Complexity – How Arthur Hunt Fails To Refute Behe

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I do enjoy reading ID’s most vehement critics, both in formal publications (such as books and papers) and on the, somewhat less formal, Internet blogosphere. Part of the reason for this is that it gives one something of a re-assurance to observe the vacuous nature of many of the critics’ attempted rebuttals to the challenge offered to neo-Darwinism by ID, and the attempted compensation of its sheer lack of explicative power by the religious ferocity of the associated rhetoric (to paraphrase Lynn Margulis). The prevalent pretense that the causal sufficiency of neo-Darwinism is an open-and-shut case (when no such open-and-shut case for the affirmative exists) never ceases to amuse me.

One such forum where esteemed critics lurk is the Panda’s Thumb blog. A website devoted to holding the Darwinian fort, and one endorsed by the National Center for Selling Evolution Science Education (NCSE). Since many of the Darwinian heavy guns blog for this website, we can conclude that, if consistently demonstrably faulty arguments are common play, the front-line Darwinism defense lobby is in deep water.

Recently, someone referred me to two articles (one, two) on the Panda’s Thumb website (from back in 2007), by Arthur Hunt (professor in Department of Plant and Soil Sciences at the University of Kentucky). The first is entitled “On the evolution of Irreducible Complexity”; the second, “Reality 1, Behe 0” (the latter posted shortly following the publication of Behe’s second book, The Edge of Evolution).

The articles purport to refute Michael Behe’s notion of irreducible complexity. But, as I intend to show here, they do nothing of the kind!

In his first article, Hunt begins,

There has been a spate of interest in the blogosphere recently in the matter of protein evolution, and in particular the proposition that new protein function can evolve. Nick Matzke summarized a review (reference 1) on the subject here. Briefly, the various mechanisms discussed in the review include exon shuffling, gene duplication, retroposition, recruitment of mobile element sequences, lateral gene transfer, gene fusion, and de novo origination. Of all of these, the mechanism that received the least attention was the last – the de novo appearance of new protein-coding genes basically “from scratch”. A few examples are mentioned (such as antifreeze proteins, or AFGPs), and long-time followers of ev/cre discussions will recognize the players. However, what I would argue is the most impressive of such examples is not mentioned by Long et al. (1).

There is no need to discuss the cited Long et al. (2003) paper in any great detail here, as this has already been done by Casey Luskin here (see also Luskin’s further discussion of Anti-Freeze evolution here), and I wish to concern myself with the central element of Hunt’s argument.

Hunt continues,

Below the fold, I will describe an example of de novo appearance of a new protein-coding gene that should open one’s eyes as to the reach of evolutionary processes. To get readers to actually read below the fold, I’ll summarize – what we will learn of is a protein that is not merely a “simple” binding protein, or one with some novel physicochemical properties (like the AFGPs), but rather a gated ion channel. Specifically, a multimeric complex that: 1. permits passage of ions through membranes; 2. and binds a “trigger” that causes the gate to open (from what is otherwise a “closed” state). Recalling that Behe, in Darwin’s Black Box, explicitly calls gated ion channels IC systems, what the following amounts to is an example of the de novo appearance of a multifunctional, IC system.

Hunt is making big promises. But does he deliver? Let me briefly summarise the jist of Hunt’s argument, and then briefly weigh in on it.

The cornerstone of Hunt’s argument is principally concerned with the gene, T-urf13, which, contra Behe’s delineated ‘edge’ of evolution, is supposedly a de novo mitochondrial gene that very quickly evolved from other genes which specified rRNA, in addition to some non-coding DNA elements. The gene specifies a transmembrane protein, which aids in facilitating the passage of hydrophilic molecules across the mitochondrial membrane in maize – opening only when bound on the exterior by particular molecules.

The protein is specific to the mitochondria of maize with Texas male-sterile cytoplasm, and has also been implicated in causing male sterility and sensitivity to T-cytoplasm-specific fungal diseases. Two parts of the T-urf13 gene are homologous to other parts in the maize genome, with a further component being of unknown origin. Hunt maintains that this proves that this gene evolved by Darwinian-like means.

Hunt further maintains that the T-urf13 consists of at least three “CCCs” (recall Behe’s argument advanced in The Edge of Evolution that a double “CCC” is unlikely to be feasible by a Darwinian pathway). Two of these “CCCs”, Hunt argues, come from the binding of each subunit to at minimum two other subunits in order to form the heteromeric complex in the membrane. This entails that each respective subunit have at minimum two protein-binding sites.

Hunt argues for the presence of yet another “CCC”:

[T]he ion channel is gated. It binds a polyketide toxin, and the consequence is an opening of the channel. This is a third binding site. This is not another protein binding site, and I rather suppose that Behe would argue that this isn’t relevant to the Edge of Evolution. But the notion of a “CCC” derives from consideration of changes in a transporter (PfCRT) that alter the interaction with chloroquine; toxin binding by T-urf13 is quite analogous to the interaction between PfCRT and chloroquine. Thus, this third function of T-urf13 is akin to yet another “CCC”.

He also notes that,

It turns out that T-urf13 is a membrane protein, and in membranes it forms oligomeric structures (I am not sure if the stoichiometries have been firmly established, but that it is oligomeric is not in question). This is the first biochemical trait I would ask readers to file away – this protein is capable of protein-protein interactions, between like subunits. This means that the T-urf13 polypeptide must possess interfaces that mediate protein-protein interactions. (Readers may recall Behe and Snokes, who argued that such interfaces are very unlikely to occur by chance.)

[Note: The Behe & Snoke (2004) paper is available here, and their response (2005) to Michael Lynch’s critique is available here.]

Hunt tells us that “the protein dubbed T-urf13 had evolved, in one fell swoop by random shuffling of the maize mitochondrial genome.” If three CCC’s really evolved in “one fell swoop” by specific but random mutations, then Behe’s argument is in trouble. But does any of the research described by Hunt make any progress with regards to demonstrating that this is even plausible? Short answer: no.

Hunt does have a go of guesstimating the probabilistic plausibility of such an event of neo-functionalisation taking place. He tells us, “The bottom line – T-urf13 consists of at least three ‘CCCs’. Running some numbers, we can guesstimate that T-urf13 would need about 10^60 events of some sort in order to occur.”

Look at what Hunt concludes:

Now, recall that we are talking about, not one, but a minimum of three CCC’s. Behe says 1 in 10^60, what actually happened occurred in a total event size of less that 10^30. Obviously, Behe has badly mis-estimated the “Edge of Evolution”. Briefly stated, his “Edge of Evolution” is wrong. [Emphasis in original]

Readers trained in basic logic will take quick note of the circularity involved in this argumentation. Does Hunt offer any evidence that T-urf13 could have plausibly evolved by a Darwinian-type mechanism? No, he doesn’t. In fact, he casually dismisses the mathematics which refutes his whole argument. Here we have a system with a minimum of three CCCs, and since he presupposes as an a priori principle that it must have a Darwinian explanation, this apparently refutes Behe’s argument! This is truly astonishing argumentation. Yes, certain parts of the gene have known homologous counterparts. But, at most, that demonstrates common descent (and even that conclusion is dubious). But a demonstration of homology, or common ancestral derivation, or a progression of forms is not, in and of itself, a causal explanation. Behe himself noted in Darwin’s Black Box, “Although useful for determining lines of descent … comparing sequences cannot show how a complex biochemical system achieved its function—the question that most concerns us in this book.” Since Behe already maintains that all life is derivative of a common ancestor, a demonstration of biochemical or molecular homology is not likely to impress him greatly.

How, then, might Hunt and others successfully show Behe to be wrong about evolution? It’s very simple: show that adequate probabilistic resources existed to facilitate the plausible origin of these types of multi-component-dependent systems. If, indeed, it is the case that each fitness peak lies separated by more than a few specific mutations, it remains difficult to envision how the Darwinian mechanism might adequately facilitate the transition from one peak to another within any reasonable time frame. Douglas Axe, of the biologic institute, showed in one recent paper in the journal Bio-complexity that the model of gene duplication and recruitment only works if very few changes are required to acquire novel selectable utility or neo-functionalisation. If a duplicated gene is neutral (in terms of its cost to the organism), then the  maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six. If the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer (not inclusive of the duplication itself). One other study, published in Nature in 2001 by Keefe & Szostak, documented that more than a million million random sequences were required in order to stumble upon a functioning ATP-binding protein, a protein substantially smaller than the transmembrane protein specified by the gene, T-urf13. Douglas Axe has also documented (2004), in the Journal of Molecular Biology, the prohibitive rarity of functional enzymatic binding domains with respect to the vast sea of combinatorial sequence space in a 150 amino-acid long residue (Beta-Lactamase).

What, then, can we conclude? Contrary to his claims, Hunt has failed to provide a detailed and rigorous account of the origin of T-urf13. Hunt also supplies no mathematical demonstration that the de novo origin of such genes is sufficiently probable that it might be justifiably attributed to an unguided or random process, nor does he provide a demonstration that a step-wise pathway exists where novel utility is conferred at every step (being separated by not more than one or two mutations) along the way prior to the emergence of the T-urf13 gene.

The Panda’s Thumb are really going to have to do better than this if they hope to refute Behe!

Comments
KF at 36, thanks. I should have known to go to IOSE. I am interested in information being instantiated into matter not by symbol, but by form.Upright BiPed
February 26, 2011
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Pedant: How did you type your post? In short, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and depending, the different ways may not leave specific signs. But the "skinned cat[fish]" in this case, however done, has in it the distinctive sign dFSCI, which points to the root cause, whatever mechanism employed: touch-typing on a QWERTY keyboard, typing on a Dvorak keyboard, two-finger typing, or even typing by pointing to letters on a touch-board with your mouth or toes, depending on possible handicap. The mechanical expressions may vary, the intent and action of mind behind these expressions does not, and that is what FSCO/I detects. Meanwhile, after hours and hours, you are still not coming forward with the evidence that would show on empirical data that undirected forces of chance plus necessity are causally adequate to reliably and repeatedly generate FSCI. But the very post you used to distract form this is yet another instance where the inference from FSCO/I to design as the best explanation, is again accurate. 1208 ASCII characters in contextually calculatedly evasive English text, 128^1208 = 3.23*10^2545 possibilities; well beyond the FSCI rule of thumb threshold. As to mechanisms to create the organisms, anything from a super sophisticated nanotech lab on up to front-loaded genes and so forth are possible. But, that is the operative word: possible. We know what is credible: design, and we know it is possible to do so, so next step reverse and forward engineering. But that is onward engineering. The decisive, even revolutionary point is the empirically well warranted inference to design as cause -- which your "evade at all costs" remarks inadvertently testify to. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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StephenB @63:
ID doesn’t presume to know how the designer did what it did.
Why not? Why would that be a presumption? What is preventing ID from investigating the designer's modus operandi? Is the designer assumed or posited to be beyond the reach of empirical research?
It is not incumbent on the scientist to validate a hypothesis that he doesn’t make...
On the contrary, it is incumbent on anyone who makes an empirical knowledge claim to acknowledge the existence of entailments of that claim and to respond to challenges concerning those entailments. As you just said above about the Darwinist:
Therefore, it is incumbent in the Darwinist to justify the assertion his assertion [sic] and provide evidence for it.
It looks like you employ a double standard of criticism.
...nor is it a rule of science that he should posit a “process” in order to make his hypothesis scientific. Science is a search for causes not processes.
If by "process," you mean how something works, that has become a key question for science since the 16th Century. See, for example, Newton's laws of motion, especially the second law (F = ma), which allows quantitative calculations of how velocities of objects change when forces are applied.Pedant
February 26, 2011
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---kairosfocus: "Pardon such directness." By all means Sometimes directness penetrates the fog. ID posits a designer as the cause of some features in nature and provides ample evidence to support that proposition. [Modest claim justified] Darwinism posits a mechanistic process as the cause of all biodiversity and provides no evidence at all to support that proposition. [Bold claim unjustified] Meanwhile, Darwinists ask ID scientists to justify their proposed process, as if one had been proposed, while failing to justify their own process, which was proposed. [Irrational assumption about equivalence of hypotheses]StephenB
February 26, 2011
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SB: We have posited an inference to a cause, on a warrant rooted in empirically reliable signs backed up by analysis of the infinite monkeys challenge. And, we have plainly met the challenge. As we just saw from Eugen, he backs up what I would say too: the secret to a real-time automated system, is that it must start to a known initial condition, then move under control after that on a path that has been worked out, or at least which it will work out in a predictable, effective and safe way based on programming [and a lot of testing]. If it ever escapes control, you try to build in a safe recovery. Esp. in industrial environments, where with the power levels and masses involved BAD things can happen faster than you want to think. But, randomness is the enemy, not your friend. And the moreso as the systems become more and more integrated. The notion that something as specific, integrated and complex as that, assembles and programs itself out of lucky noise corrected by trial and error, is ludicrous. Pardon such directness. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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--mathgirl: "NO, I’m merely asking for evidence that such a designer exists (or existed), that it intervened in biological evolution, what it did, and HOW IT ACCOMPLISHED WHAT IT DID" [my emphasis on the capital letters] [No, I am not asking for evidence to support how the designer did what it did.] ---"Again, this is no more than would be expected of the proponents of any other hypothesis.?" [Yes, I am asking for evidence of how the designer did what it did it?] The last part of your first statement contradicts the second. Please choose one objection. Also, absorb this point: ID doesn't presume to know how the designer did what it did. It is not incumbent on the scientist to validate a hypothesis that he doesn't make, nor is it a rule of science that he should posit a "process" in order to make his hypothesis scientific. Science is a search for causes not processes. Darwinism does preseumt to know that process [random variation and natural selection] is responsible for all biodiversity Therefore, it is incumbent in the Darwinist to justify the assertion his assertion and provide evidence for it. Further, ID does not claim that the designer "intervened." It is important to know something about the proposition that you are trying to argue against. Summary: It is NOT incumbent on the ID scientist to justify an assertion he doesn't make. If ID doesn't hypothesize a process, ID can't justify a process. It IS incumbent on the Darwinist to justify an assertion that he does make.StephenB
February 26, 2011
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Yes, I think Dr Bot is ninja,too. I've been looking for him re. digital communications and storage across posts but there are so many. "–> Eugen, what do you think the odds are of generating the info to set up such a line by lucky noise backed up by trial and error testing?" I sometimes run thought experiments to examine what would happen if I take just two instructions or wires and switch them around. Depends what is switched problems could range from simple stop to catastrophic. I fight randomness with all I have.Eugen
February 26, 2011
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I notice that the link (in comment #40 above) to my essay on Axe's JMB paper doesn't seem to be working. Here is a copy and paste url (sorry about any frustration attendant with this): http://aghunt.wordpress.com/2008/12/26/axe-2004-and-the-evolution-of-enzyme-function/ Enjoy!Arthur Hunt
February 26, 2011
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EUGEN? Did you catch that? Gkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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F/N: it is quite obvious that the flagellum is a programmed entity that is assembled by the cell itself in accordance with a complex algorithm, or rather a cluster of algorithms that start with triggering such formation and producing then transporting in the right sequence the components. Why not ask Eugen -- who works in the relevant field day to day -- about what it takes to set up an automated assembly line, and what sort of smarts it would take to so completely automate it as in the living cell? --> Eugen, what do you think the odds are of generating the info to set up such a line by lucky noise backed up by trial and error testing?kairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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MathGrrl "Since there is no Moses around to talk to Creator… I thought that ID was a scientific, not religious, hypothesis. Do you think otherwise?" --- That was supposed to be a joke. I'm not expert on the science-religion issue. I think you are ninja. You are evading and redirecting pretty good. Now, I don't have any idea for the experiment you are asking about. Please give some hints, maybe it could be accommodated.Eugen
February 26, 2011
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MN: The issue is not how a cell, a digitally controlled automaton, operates and replicates, but how it originated. Especially, here, how the particular feature of interest, a flagellum -- an example of an IC entity -- originated. As Eugen described, we know how to design and build automata by intelligence, and thanks to von Neumann, we know how they can be given a self-replicating facility, through we have yet to be able to fully implement that. A reasonable matter of time. The unanswered quesiton, remains: can you account for such entities, on empirical evidence, from chance plus necessity without intelligent intervention? Given that this matter has been up front and centre for years now, if there were such an answer the answer would be trumpeted to the high heavens. So, the evasive side tracks, verbal sparring games, distractions and turnabout attempts are increasingly eloquent evidence that you have no sound answer on the merits. The same basic problem extends to the other rebuttal attempts above. Here is what this all boils down to: by fiat of the magisterium in the holy lab coat, we are expected to salute and say yessir on the claimed evolutionary materialist account of origins, simply on the grounds of logical possibility, the obvious and plainly superior alternative having been ruled out as an explanation to be seriously addressed, by question-begging rules tampering games. Sorry, I am not buying that. Not when I can do science say the way Newton did. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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@ kairosfocus I'm sorry, I was asking if you think it is build or assembled by purely natrual processes not about how it originated.myname
February 26, 2011
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StephenB,
”As MathGirl suggested, surely it is equitable for anyone to ask design protagonists to provide better explanations for the origins of biological entities than the mechanistic explanations they find wanting on the part of conventional science.” It is not only not “equitable,” it is not even rational. According to your account, all biodiversity was the result of a mechanistic, step-by-step process. According to our account, it was not. So now you are asking us to do what? –to provide evidence for something we say did not happen and that you say did happen?
No, I'm merely asking for evidence that such a designer exists (or existed), that it intervened in biological evolution, what it did, and how it accomplished whatever it did. Again, this is no more than would be expected of the proponents of any other hypothesis.MathGrrl
February 26, 2011
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Eugen,
“You are claiming that an intelligent designer exists and intervenes in the evolution of life on this planet. I am asking you to provide empirical evidence for this claim to answer the questions of who, what, when, where, and how.” Wow. Quite a demand, I think.
Not really. As I noted, it's no more than would be asked of the proponents of any other hypothesis.
Since there is no Moses around to talk to Creator...
I thought that ID was a scientific, not religious, hypothesis. Do you think otherwise?
...why not re-read recent series by Kairos where he set up test experiment that’s actually doable. If not that, please give some ideas for specific experiment.
If you don't already have empirical evidence, there is no basis for your hypothesis. It is up to the proponents of ID to provide that evidence, or at least admit that it doesn't (yet) exist.MathGrrl
February 26, 2011
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PaV,
Your basic question is this: Can an intelligent designer exist and intervene in the evolution of life on this planet?
No, my question is: Where is the empirical evidence to support the claim that an intelligent designer exists and did intervene in the evolution of life on this planet?MathGrrl
February 26, 2011
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MN: Pardon. The issue is not me, nor what I think. It is whether, on empirical evidence, you can ground the claim that a demonstrated IC system -- cf the knockout studies in the previously linked -- can originate by forces of undirected chance and necessity. In the case of the flagellum, in the main by chance genetic variations and natural selection, involving whatever sub-components you wish and whatever de novo components you wish. These must come together to form a functioning entity, in light of C1 - 5. We already know that intelligent, skilled design is causally sufficient for complex, multi-part entities that arrange, interface, integrate and use components according to a wiring plan. (And with Venter et al, we are scaling down to bio-molecule level, with real world commercial applications probable across this decade. The next stage of mechatronics.) The question on the table, is can you show that forces of chance and necessity, without such design, are causally sufficient to do that, the literally thousands of times required to explain life and its forms and structures? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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@ kairosfocus Just to be clear, you think that the bacterial flagellum is not build by purely natrual processes?myname
February 26, 2011
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Kairos "I get the consistent picture that those who dismiss IC as a significant issue have never had to seriously design complex systems, and do not have a feel for what is required to put together a networked composite entity that requires matched interfaces," Thank you. I wonder what would they say about autonomous light seeking robot I built. I let him(it) roam in my backyard looking for best light to charge his batteries via small solar panel. That the only purpose in his little robotic life. ( does he dream about new Ni-MH batteries) If he could be made size 1/1000th mm I wonder if they would say he (it) designed itself.Eugen
February 26, 2011
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Onlookers: videokairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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F/N: MN, the flagellum, the iconic case of IC, needs to be accounted for as a system that is built by a cell, and that building and operation have to be accounted for on the claimed evolutionary mechanisms. if it is not built it does not exist. If its components are not available and matched as needed, it cannot be built. If its parts are not properly organised and assembled, it will not work.kairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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MN: Pardon. I have pointed out that there are strawman tactics that have been played with C1, and have been corrected on the record at least since 2003. I do not appreciate that being twisted into the pretence of a sound answer to C1. I have also showed that the strawman tactic has been extended to the tactic of simply ignoring C2 - 5. your gambit above, to focus on strawmanish responses on C1 ignoring C2 - 5, is a strong indication that in fact, you do not have a cogent response across the set of constraints C1 - 5. The problem is, unless there are answers to C1 - 5 that are solid across all, and backed by empirical evidence, you are nowhere. That is, you have not put forth any empirically well supported mechanism to account for functionally specific irreducibly complex organised systems on undirected chance plus mechanical necessity. For C1 and C2 - 5 are all NECESSARY conditions. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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As a side note, in C1 to C5 you seem to be mixing the issue of how the flagellum is build and how it evolved/was designed. We can of course drop the assumption that if a bacterium today produces a flaggellum it only utilizes purely natural processes. But in this case a discussion seems to be meaningless to me.myname
February 26, 2011
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@ kairosfocus You have just admitted that there are answers to C1. So we can start with these.myname
February 26, 2011
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F/N: Here is my in-brief on a typical objection, the T3SS proposed as ancestral to the flagellum:
unless all five factors are properly addressed, the matter has plainly not been adequately explained. Worse, the classic attempted rebuttal, the Type Three Secretory System [T3SS] is not only based on a subset of the genes for the flagellum [as part of the self-assembly the flagellum must push components out of the cell], but functionally, it works to help certain bacteria prey on eukaryote organisms. Thus, if anything the T3SS is not only a component part that has to be integrated under C1 – 5, but it is credibly derivative of the flagellum and an adaptation that is subsequent to the origin of Eukaryotes. Also, it is just one of several components, and is arguably itself an IC system . . .
Dembski has provided more details here, ever since 2003. And of course, this is a case in point of an answer that is inadequate on C1 and ignored 2 - 5.kairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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MN: Why not provide an example, one that cogently responds to C1 - 5 on the merits, with empirical evidence that shows that this is not just a paper idea. (ONLOOKERS: a literature bluff that claims that there is a cogent response that they coyly does not provide such, is an implicit admission that there is no real response. MN: In short, you need to show that you are not putting up a literature bluff. Luskin's summary on this is: “Those who purport to explain flagellar evolution almost always only address C1 and ignore C2-C5.”) As someone who has had to design things, I am highly confident that C1 - 5 summarise real engineering and manufacturing issues that have to be resolved if something is to actually work. Cf my discussion here, which includes a summary on the actual demonstration of irreducible complexity for the flagellum, in the lab. So, MN, once you provide an actual case -- one that cogently addresses C1 - 5 in a realistic case backed up by observational data, then we can see how this matter can be moved forwards. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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@ kairosfocus The only way to advance the discussion is if you take the answers to your questions C1-C5 that have been given and explicitly and in detail state why these are not sound. And the answers are out there probably most of them freely available.myname
February 26, 2011
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Mr Hunt et al: the basic problem with the typical objections to irreducible complexity as a key sign of design is the C1 - 5 issue, in the context of needing to account for significantly complex systems, not minor shifts. I cite Angus Menuge: ___________ >> For a working [bacterial] flagellum to be built by exaptation, the five following conditions would all have to be met: C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the flagellum, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of paddle, rotor, and motor, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function. C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time. C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed. C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a flagellum are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant. C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if a paddle, rotor, and motor are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly. ( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.) >> ___________ I get the consistent picture that those who dismiss IC as a significant issue have never had to seriously design complex systems, and do not have a feel for what is required to put together a networked composite entity that requires matched interfaces, complex organization and needs to fulfill an overall function. Until I see something that soundly answers to the C1 - 5 factors, and backs it up with demonstration of how something like a flagellum on empirical observation emerged by direct development or co-option, I cannot but concluse that I am looking at strawman objections. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 26, 2011
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Hmmm.... It's nice to see that my essay still can generate some interest after all these years. Two points/questions: 1. It is not clear to me what is being claimed. Jonathan, are you suggesting that the mechanisms known to be involved in homologous and/or non-homologous recombination (the processes that pretty clearly gave rise to the T-urf13 gene) do not obey the rules of chemistry? This is the only way I can make sense of your argument. Stated another way, you seem to be claiming that T-urf13 must be beyond the reach of "Darwinian" processes, that in this case must involve recombination. Since T-urf13 obviously exists, and since we know when, where, and how (at least in general terms) it arose, then your argument seems to boil down to an assertion that recombinational mechanisms are either insufficient (obviously wrong) or guided in some (unstated) way. If you are trying to say something else, a bit of clarification would be appreciated. 2. Axe's views about the nature of the functional space of protein sequences are plainly wrong. I try to illustrate this here (I also explain why the ID party line with respect to the 2004 JMB paper is incorrect.) Given this, the objections that rely on the alleged fantastic isolation of functionality in sequence space are pretty irrelevant. (This is, of course, one of the points of the T-urf13 example. It shows quite clearly that functionality, even irreducible complexity, is not the stupendous impossibility that is claimed by Behe and others.)Arthur Hunt
February 25, 2011
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Pedant:
You consider it fair to ask an evolutionist for a detailed step-by-step mechanistic scenario of complex organelle evolution, while providing nothing in the way of a step-by-step mechanistic scenario informed by design theory.
It is all about capabilities, meaning we know that intelligent agencies are capable of producing CSI and IC. However we don't have any observations or experience with blind, undirected processes doing so. Therefor your position needs the detail. And BTW your position hardly rests on conventiona science...Joseph
February 25, 2011
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