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On the non-evolution of Irreducible Complexity – How Arthur Hunt Fails To Refute Behe

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I do enjoy reading ID’s most vehement critics, both in formal publications (such as books and papers) and on the, somewhat less formal, Internet blogosphere. Part of the reason for this is that it gives one something of a re-assurance to observe the vacuous nature of many of the critics’ attempted rebuttals to the challenge offered to neo-Darwinism by ID, and the attempted compensation of its sheer lack of explicative power by the religious ferocity of the associated rhetoric (to paraphrase Lynn Margulis). The prevalent pretense that the causal sufficiency of neo-Darwinism is an open-and-shut case (when no such open-and-shut case for the affirmative exists) never ceases to amuse me.

One such forum where esteemed critics lurk is the Panda’s Thumb blog. A website devoted to holding the Darwinian fort, and one endorsed by the National Center for Selling Evolution Science Education (NCSE). Since many of the Darwinian heavy guns blog for this website, we can conclude that, if consistently demonstrably faulty arguments are common play, the front-line Darwinism defense lobby is in deep water.

Recently, someone referred me to two articles (one, two) on the Panda’s Thumb website (from back in 2007), by Arthur Hunt (professor in Department of Plant and Soil Sciences at the University of Kentucky). The first is entitled “On the evolution of Irreducible Complexity”; the second, “Reality 1, Behe 0” (the latter posted shortly following the publication of Behe’s second book, The Edge of Evolution).

The articles purport to refute Michael Behe’s notion of irreducible complexity. But, as I intend to show here, they do nothing of the kind!

In his first article, Hunt begins,

There has been a spate of interest in the blogosphere recently in the matter of protein evolution, and in particular the proposition that new protein function can evolve. Nick Matzke summarized a review (reference 1) on the subject here. Briefly, the various mechanisms discussed in the review include exon shuffling, gene duplication, retroposition, recruitment of mobile element sequences, lateral gene transfer, gene fusion, and de novo origination. Of all of these, the mechanism that received the least attention was the last – the de novo appearance of new protein-coding genes basically “from scratch”. A few examples are mentioned (such as antifreeze proteins, or AFGPs), and long-time followers of ev/cre discussions will recognize the players. However, what I would argue is the most impressive of such examples is not mentioned by Long et al. (1).

There is no need to discuss the cited Long et al. (2003) paper in any great detail here, as this has already been done by Casey Luskin here (see also Luskin’s further discussion of Anti-Freeze evolution here), and I wish to concern myself with the central element of Hunt’s argument.

Hunt continues,

Below the fold, I will describe an example of de novo appearance of a new protein-coding gene that should open one’s eyes as to the reach of evolutionary processes. To get readers to actually read below the fold, I’ll summarize – what we will learn of is a protein that is not merely a “simple” binding protein, or one with some novel physicochemical properties (like the AFGPs), but rather a gated ion channel. Specifically, a multimeric complex that: 1. permits passage of ions through membranes; 2. and binds a “trigger” that causes the gate to open (from what is otherwise a “closed” state). Recalling that Behe, in Darwin’s Black Box, explicitly calls gated ion channels IC systems, what the following amounts to is an example of the de novo appearance of a multifunctional, IC system.

Hunt is making big promises. But does he deliver? Let me briefly summarise the jist of Hunt’s argument, and then briefly weigh in on it.

The cornerstone of Hunt’s argument is principally concerned with the gene, T-urf13, which, contra Behe’s delineated ‘edge’ of evolution, is supposedly a de novo mitochondrial gene that very quickly evolved from other genes which specified rRNA, in addition to some non-coding DNA elements. The gene specifies a transmembrane protein, which aids in facilitating the passage of hydrophilic molecules across the mitochondrial membrane in maize – opening only when bound on the exterior by particular molecules.

The protein is specific to the mitochondria of maize with Texas male-sterile cytoplasm, and has also been implicated in causing male sterility and sensitivity to T-cytoplasm-specific fungal diseases. Two parts of the T-urf13 gene are homologous to other parts in the maize genome, with a further component being of unknown origin. Hunt maintains that this proves that this gene evolved by Darwinian-like means.

Hunt further maintains that the T-urf13 consists of at least three “CCCs” (recall Behe’s argument advanced in The Edge of Evolution that a double “CCC” is unlikely to be feasible by a Darwinian pathway). Two of these “CCCs”, Hunt argues, come from the binding of each subunit to at minimum two other subunits in order to form the heteromeric complex in the membrane. This entails that each respective subunit have at minimum two protein-binding sites.

Hunt argues for the presence of yet another “CCC”:

[T]he ion channel is gated. It binds a polyketide toxin, and the consequence is an opening of the channel. This is a third binding site. This is not another protein binding site, and I rather suppose that Behe would argue that this isn’t relevant to the Edge of Evolution. But the notion of a “CCC” derives from consideration of changes in a transporter (PfCRT) that alter the interaction with chloroquine; toxin binding by T-urf13 is quite analogous to the interaction between PfCRT and chloroquine. Thus, this third function of T-urf13 is akin to yet another “CCC”.

He also notes that,

It turns out that T-urf13 is a membrane protein, and in membranes it forms oligomeric structures (I am not sure if the stoichiometries have been firmly established, but that it is oligomeric is not in question). This is the first biochemical trait I would ask readers to file away – this protein is capable of protein-protein interactions, between like subunits. This means that the T-urf13 polypeptide must possess interfaces that mediate protein-protein interactions. (Readers may recall Behe and Snokes, who argued that such interfaces are very unlikely to occur by chance.)

[Note: The Behe & Snoke (2004) paper is available here, and their response (2005) to Michael Lynch’s critique is available here.]

Hunt tells us that “the protein dubbed T-urf13 had evolved, in one fell swoop by random shuffling of the maize mitochondrial genome.” If three CCC’s really evolved in “one fell swoop” by specific but random mutations, then Behe’s argument is in trouble. But does any of the research described by Hunt make any progress with regards to demonstrating that this is even plausible? Short answer: no.

Hunt does have a go of guesstimating the probabilistic plausibility of such an event of neo-functionalisation taking place. He tells us, “The bottom line – T-urf13 consists of at least three ‘CCCs’. Running some numbers, we can guesstimate that T-urf13 would need about 10^60 events of some sort in order to occur.”

Look at what Hunt concludes:

Now, recall that we are talking about, not one, but a minimum of three CCC’s. Behe says 1 in 10^60, what actually happened occurred in a total event size of less that 10^30. Obviously, Behe has badly mis-estimated the “Edge of Evolution”. Briefly stated, his “Edge of Evolution” is wrong. [Emphasis in original]

Readers trained in basic logic will take quick note of the circularity involved in this argumentation. Does Hunt offer any evidence that T-urf13 could have plausibly evolved by a Darwinian-type mechanism? No, he doesn’t. In fact, he casually dismisses the mathematics which refutes his whole argument. Here we have a system with a minimum of three CCCs, and since he presupposes as an a priori principle that it must have a Darwinian explanation, this apparently refutes Behe’s argument! This is truly astonishing argumentation. Yes, certain parts of the gene have known homologous counterparts. But, at most, that demonstrates common descent (and even that conclusion is dubious). But a demonstration of homology, or common ancestral derivation, or a progression of forms is not, in and of itself, a causal explanation. Behe himself noted in Darwin’s Black Box, “Although useful for determining lines of descent … comparing sequences cannot show how a complex biochemical system achieved its function—the question that most concerns us in this book.” Since Behe already maintains that all life is derivative of a common ancestor, a demonstration of biochemical or molecular homology is not likely to impress him greatly.

How, then, might Hunt and others successfully show Behe to be wrong about evolution? It’s very simple: show that adequate probabilistic resources existed to facilitate the plausible origin of these types of multi-component-dependent systems. If, indeed, it is the case that each fitness peak lies separated by more than a few specific mutations, it remains difficult to envision how the Darwinian mechanism might adequately facilitate the transition from one peak to another within any reasonable time frame. Douglas Axe, of the biologic institute, showed in one recent paper in the journal Bio-complexity that the model of gene duplication and recruitment only works if very few changes are required to acquire novel selectable utility or neo-functionalisation. If a duplicated gene is neutral (in terms of its cost to the organism), then the  maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six. If the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer (not inclusive of the duplication itself). One other study, published in Nature in 2001 by Keefe & Szostak, documented that more than a million million random sequences were required in order to stumble upon a functioning ATP-binding protein, a protein substantially smaller than the transmembrane protein specified by the gene, T-urf13. Douglas Axe has also documented (2004), in the Journal of Molecular Biology, the prohibitive rarity of functional enzymatic binding domains with respect to the vast sea of combinatorial sequence space in a 150 amino-acid long residue (Beta-Lactamase).

What, then, can we conclude? Contrary to his claims, Hunt has failed to provide a detailed and rigorous account of the origin of T-urf13. Hunt also supplies no mathematical demonstration that the de novo origin of such genes is sufficiently probable that it might be justifiably attributed to an unguided or random process, nor does he provide a demonstration that a step-wise pathway exists where novel utility is conferred at every step (being separated by not more than one or two mutations) along the way prior to the emergence of the T-urf13 gene.

The Panda’s Thumb are really going to have to do better than this if they hope to refute Behe!

Comments
---Pedant [and MathGirl] "You consider it fair to ask an evolutionist for a detailed step-by-step mechanistic scenario of complex organelle evolution, while providing nothing in the way of a step-by-step mechanistic scenario informed by design theory." ---"As MathGirl suggested, surely it is equitable for anyone to ask design protagonists to provide better explanations for the origins of biological entities than the mechanistic explanations they find wanting on the part of conventional science." It is not only not "equitable," it is not even rational. According to your account, all biodiversity was the result of a mechanistic, step-by-step process. According to our account, it was not. So now you are asking us to do what? --to provide evidence for something we say did not happen and that you say did happen? What kind of nonsense is that ? Incrementalism and the naturalistic, step-by-step process is your gig, not ours. That fact is, you cannot provide any evidence at all to support your wide-sweeping claim that such a mechanism can do what you say it can do. The counter fact is that we can provide plenty of evidence to support our minimalist claims for design in nature. Big claims like yours require big support, yet you have none. Small claims like ours require much less support, yet we provide that and more.StephenB
February 25, 2011
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F/N: Pedant and MG, before any further arguments, it would be helpful if you could provide a cogent counter to the points presented here and here, on FSCO/I and the infinite monkeys analysis. Failing that, we have every epistemic right to infer from FSCO/I as a reliable sign, to design as the empirically known causally sufficeient and reliable source for such.kairosfocus
February 25, 2011
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UB: Look at the discussions here and here, including the onward links. Something as simple as a nut and a bolt shows functionally specific complex organisation pointing to design. (Just look at your handy hardware store nuts and bolts section to see just how functionally specific such things are! And, yes these are analogue, but the blueprint is reducible to digital form, via a mesh of nodes, arcs and interfaces.] A classic quotation, by a leading OOL researcher is: __________________ >> ‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [[i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [[originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [[“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65.] >> __________________ This suggests the nodes, arcs and interfaces reduction that I have used; which then implies onwards, the information that can be extracted, and tested for being an island of function, i.e. what happens when we inject some noise, do we tend to run out of a shore of an island of function? The digital reduction is, on that resolution, without loss of generality, as we are in effect deducing the blueprint for the system, including the tolerances that will still work. It is interesting to note, how many precision machines that until recently, what had to be done was to fit and try specific parts to get one that would fit. The old 0.303 Lee Enfield Rifle is a classic case in point. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 25, 2011
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KF, FSCO/I We know that information can be instantiated into matter in the form of an arrangement of symbols which can be mapped to objects or control processes. This is even moreso obvious when the symbols are presented in digital sequence manner, where decoding is rules based. That is the FCS-I part of the two acronyms above. But the FSC-O part... A lever with a complimentary hole and a shaft to form a pivot, which then acts within a function. This would seem to be information instantiated into matter as well (in perhaps an analog manner, or perhaps that descriptor misses the issue). Do you have anything on these thoguhts or ideas - done any work around it? A link? Thanks!Upright BiPed
February 25, 2011
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Pedant: We know -- per massive observation [as repeatedly noted] -- that intelligence is causally sufficient for functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information. So much so, that such FSCO/I is a reliable index of design. It is claimed by darwinists, that observations of FSCO/I in life forms, including in DNA, proteins and associated molecules that carry out the step by step molecular processes of life, are due to chance plus necessity, through chemical and/or biological evolution. That claim is what needs to be backed up by em0piricqal demonstration,a s there is a serious reason -- cf, the infinite monkeys analysis as wel as the pattern of observed cause -- to quesiton such a claim. It is highly interesting that, instead of provideing empirical support for the claim, you are trying a turnabout, as though it were not the case that intelligence is already known to be causally sufficient for FSCO/I. And, so, I find the attempt to demand observation of he unobservable past -- i.e MG's demand for who what where when -- as a telling implicit admission, hiding behind a fallacy. That implicit admission is that you do not have ANY serious evidence that forces of chance and necessity without intelligent direction, can and do give rise to phenomena exhibiting FSCO/I. In short, we are back to the a priori imposition of evolutionary materialism, and the abuse of institutional power to back it up. Let the following plain facts be known, then:
1: FSCO/I is a routine, reliable sign of intelligence, where we can directly observe cause. 2: The infinite monkeys analysis shows why it is maximally unlikely that forces of chance plus necessity will give rise to FSCO/I in absence of intelligent intervention. 3: Indeed, there are no cases where in our direct observation, FSCO/I has been produced by chance plus necessity, without intelligent oversight, and the infinite monkeys analysis shows that such is maximally unlikely on the gamut of the observed cosmos. 4: On matters of origins science, we cannot make direct observations of the deep past, so ever since Newton's suggestion and the work of men like Lyell and Darwin, we have recognised that if a certain causal force is sufficient for an effect, and there are certain characteristic signs that we can identify, then the best explanation for those same signs in cases in the deep past is the one we observe in the present. This is the uniformity principle. 5: In the days of Darwin etc, it was not known that "protoplasm" contained molecular nanomachines effecting digital coded information to carry out the core activities of the cell. 6: Subsequent to the 1950s' we do know that. 7: The only known and reliable source of digital systems and coded functional information, is intelligence. 8: So, per uniformity [and subject only to actual empirical demonstration that chance + necessity can regularly produce FSCO/I] we have every epistemic right to see this as a reliable sign of intelligent cause. 9: So, we have a known causally sufficient explanation, competing with an institutionally entrenched clam that is NOT credibly causally sufficient to account for literally thousands of cases of FSCO/I in life forms.
So, the problem is that the superior explanation, by any objective, reasonable standard, is politically incorrect. That is why we are now seeing a turnabout, selectively hyperskeptical attempt to demand a degree of warrant that is known not to be possible on origins science cases, for the simple reason that we cannot directly observe the deep past of origins. So, the point is, that if we apply that suggested standard across the board, poof, all claimed knowledge of the deep past evaporates. If, instead we use the uniformity principle, it is telling us that he best explanation of the FSCO/I in life forms is intelligent design. So, there are three options:
I: Accept the evidence and the implication that FSCO/I is best explained on design II: Reject the uniformity principle, and all claimed knowledge of the past on inference from signs in the present; including BTW history, including that of scientific records, for the past, in general is unobservable. III: be inconsistent in pursuit of an ideological agenda, here, evolutionary materialism.
It should be plain that neither II nor III are rational views. I find it absolutely telling that we are seeing III plainly emerging as the view of choice for evolutionary materialists. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 25, 2011
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Pendant, you state; 'while providing nothing in the way of a step-by-step mechanistic scenario informed by design theory.' While implementation of optimal design in life is not directly observable, being in the remote past, as are all inferences for evolution of such unmatched complexity, we can directly witness the 'mechanistic effect' for optimal design in the past by observing all adaptations now witnessed are detrimental in nature (exactly the consistent 'mechanistic' type variation that evolution does not predict!); “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain - Michael Behe - December 2010 Excerpt: In its most recent issue The Quarterly Review of Biology has published a review by myself of laboratory evolution experiments of microbes going back four decades.,,, The gist of the paper is that so far the overwhelming number of adaptive (that is, helpful) mutations seen in laboratory evolution experiments are either loss or modification of function. Of course we had already known that the great majority of mutations that have a visible effect on an organism are deleterious. Now, surprisingly, it seems that even the great majority of helpful mutations degrade the genome to a greater or lesser extent.,,, I dub it “The First Rule of Adaptive Evolution”: Break or blunt any functional coded element whose loss would yield a net fitness gain.(that is a net 'fitness gain' within a 'stressed' environment i.e. remove the stress from the environment and the parent strain is always more 'fit') http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2010/12/the-first-rule-of-adaptive-evolution/ Michael Behe talks about the preceding paper on this podcast: Michael Behe: Challenging Darwin, One Peer-Reviewed Paper at a Time - December 2010 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2010-12-23T11_53_46-08_00 Evolution Vs Genetic Entropy - Andy McIntosh - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4028086 Poly-Functional Complexity equals Poly-Constrained Complexity http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMjdoZmd2emZncQ Human Genome Project Supports Adam, Not Darwin Excerpt: What is on the top tier (accounting for variation within humans)? Increasingly, the answer appears to be mutations that are ‘deleterious’ by biochemical or standard evolutionary criteria. These mutations, as has long been appreciated, overwhelmingly make up the most abundant form of nonneutral variation in all genomes. A model for human genetic individuality is emerging in which there actually is a ‘wild-type’ human genome—one in which most genes exist in an evolutionarily optimized form. There just are no ‘wild-type’ humans: We each fall short of this Platonic (optimized) ideal in our own distinctive ways. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201102.htm#20110221a etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77
February 25, 2011
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kf:
Your attempted turnabout self-destructs.
I don't find any warrant for that claim in your remarks. The reason I turned your question to markf around is because I'm puzzled by what I perceive to be an inconsistency in the design argument, at least as generally presented here. You consider it fair to ask an evolutionist for a detailed step-by-step mechanistic scenario of complex organelle evolution, while providing nothing in the way of a step-by-step mechanistic scenario informed by design theory. As MathGrrl suggested, surely it is equitable for anyone to ask design protagonists to provide better explanations for the origins of biological entities than the mechanistic explanations they find wanting on the part of conventional science.Pedant
February 25, 2011
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Correct he doesn't address t-urf13 in his blog. Tha's why I ased. However in "The Edge of Evolution" he does address it in a general way saying that he is just considering cellular protein binding to other cellular proteins, not to foreign proteins.
Destructive protein-protein binding is much easier to achieve by chance- page 149
Joseph
February 25, 2011
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Joseph, here is Dr. Behe's personal blog on UD; http://behe.uncommondescent.com/ It goes all the way back to publication of 'The Edge' (of note; you must click on previous entries at the bottom to go deeper into the blog); Behe's deals with all peer-reviewed challenges that were published, and even deals with a few blog challenges, but after brief skim through it, I found no response to Dr. Hunt. Perhaps Dr. Hunt has not issued his 'challenge' in peer-review?bornagain77
February 25, 2011
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Question of the day- Has Dr Behe responded to any of Dr Hunt's challenges/ observations?Joseph
February 25, 2011
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myname, if t-urf13 arose by evolutionary processes it would be 'magic', whereas, as you somewhat admitted, several integrated (non-evolutionary) processes (copy and pasting of DNA segments) were involved in the T-urf13's origination from non-coding DNA regions. (This is not an evolutionary process myname!!!) Dr Hunter comments here; De Novo Genes: What are the Chances? Excerpt: The URF13 protein design dwarfs the experimentally screened function of ATP binding. And yet, even in that simple case, and with conservative assumptions, we find the probabilities of the T-urf13 de novo gene arising via blind evolution to be one in ten million (that is, 1 in 10,000,000). The real number undoubtedly has many more zeroes. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2009/11/de-novo-genes-what-are-chances.html And yet myname, though you yourself admit that non-evolutionary processes were involved in T-urf13, you claim that this as stunning proof for what unguided evolutionary processes can do? It simply does not follow!!!, in fact, being that corn is a major food crop for man, it follows much more readily that this is a front-loaded adaptation. Moreover, from what evidence I have for corn/maize now, I hold that, overall, this adaptation came at a loss of preexistent information in the genome of maize. notes; Of note: The reduced genetic variability brought about by 'selection' in major food crops, such as corn, is a major concern facing scientists today since the much larger genetic variability, which is found in the parent species of corn, maize, gives greater protection from a disease wiping out the entire crop of corn. Genetic diversity and selection in the maize starch pathway: The tremendous diversity of maize and teosinte has been the raw genetic material for the radical transformation of maize into the world's highest yielding grain crop. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=130568 "Supergerms (MRSA) are not supergerms any more than hybrid corn is supercorn—today’s hybrid corns are so delicate that they can’t even sprout unless they are planted underground. They can’t even grow effectively unless the ground is weeded. They can’t even reproduce unless technicians at seed-houses mate them artificially and with great effort." http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v11/i2/supergerms.asp Biodiversity is essential for our existence: Excerpt: Unfortunately, industrial agriculture has caused a dramatic reduction of genetic diversity within the animal and plant species typically used for food. http://www.sustainabletable.org/issues/biodiversity/ EXPELLED - Natural Selection And Genetic Mutations - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4036840 "...but Natural Selection reduces genetic information and we know this from all the Genetic Population studies that we have..." Maciej Marian Giertych - Population Geneticist - member of the European Parliament - EXPELLED Could Chance Arrange the Code for (Just) One Gene? "our minds cannot grasp such an extremely small probability as that involved in the accidental arranging of even one gene (10^-236)." http://www.creationsafaris.com/epoi_c10.htm "Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds” 2004: - Doug Axe ,,,this implies the overall prevalence of sequences performing a specific function by any domain-sized fold may be as low as 1 in 10^77, adding to the body of evidence that functional folds require highly extraordinary sequences." http://www.mendeley.com/research/estimating-the-prevalence-of-protein-sequences-adopting-functional-enzyme-folds/ As well neo-Darwinism presupposes that the 'beneficial mutations' which conferred the advantage for Tibetans to live at high altitudes was completely random, yet when looked at from the point of population genetics, the evidence gives every indication that the 'beneficial mutations' were not random at all but were in fact 'programmed' mutations: Another Darwinian “Prediction” Bites the Dust - PaV - August 2010 Excerpt: this means the probability of all three sites changing “at once” (6.25 X 10^-9)^2 = approx. 4 X 10^-17 specific bp change/ yr. IOW (In Other Words), for that size population, and this is a very reasonable guess for size, it would take almost twice the life of the universe for them to take place “at once”. Thus, the invocation of “randomness” in this whole process is pure nonsense. We’re dealing with some kind of programmed response if, in fact, “polygenic selection” is taking place. And, that, of course, means design. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/another-darwinian-prediction-bites-the-dust/#more-14516 etc.. etc...bornagain77
February 25, 2011
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MathGrrl You asked: "You are claiming that an intelligent designer exists and intervenes in the evolution of life on this planet. I am asking you to provide empirical evidence for this claim to answer the questions of who, what, when, where, and how." Wow. Quite a demand, I think. Since there is no Moses around to talk to Creator why not re-read recent series by Kairos where he set up test experiment that's actually doable. If not that, please give some ideas for specific experiment.Eugen
February 25, 2011
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correction; since you did NOT see the ‘designer’ inscribe it or bury it in your backyard?bornagain77
February 25, 2011
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MathGrrl, Let's get this straight, even though the further man peers down into the cell, the more levels of jaw-dropping integration he unveils that vastly exceeds our own designs, you simply will not infer design no matter what is discovered in the cell simply because you did not see the 'Designer' implement the design in the first place and in spite of the fact you have no materialistic account for it?!? And suppose you found a monolith buried in your backyard inscribed with all sorts of strange markings you did not understand, would you also automatically assume it was not designed since you did see the 'designer' inscribe it or bury in your backyard?bornagain77
February 25, 2011
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Jonathan M, there are known mechanism how parts of the DNA can get copy&pasted, transpons for example - it does not have to be “magic”. Only Arthur Hunt did not go into great detail about it. But maybe I don't quite understand your objection. Or maybe I misunderstand you completely and you are arguing that because of Behe's calculation the protein simply can't have evolved. But what I really honestly would like to know is why you think Behe's probability calculation is so much more reliable than the evolutionary mechanism. Isn't there any chance that Behe's calculation might be mistaken? Btw. here is link to an updated post: http://aghunt.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/behe-and-the-limits-of-evolution-revised/myname
February 25, 2011
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MG: Have you actually shown -- i.e. empirical evidence, how undirected chance plus necessity can give rise to symbolic codes, instructions, step by step algorithms with initiation, sequence and halting, and the machinery that makes the codes work? The whole microelectronics industry shows that intelligence is capable of such systems, and Mr Venter's work shows that we are beginning to move it down to the scale of the cell. So, on inference to best explanation, we have excellent warrant -- as opposed to "proof" [a very slippery term, and implying demands that are often selectively hyperskeptical] -- for inferring that we are looking at a superior technology but of a familiar type. GEM of TKI PS: here's a free online textbook on the general class, embedded systems.kairosfocus
February 25, 2011
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Math Girl:
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You are claiming that an intelligent designer exists and intervenes in the evolution of life on this planet. I am asking you to provide empirical evidence for this claim to answer the questions of who, what, when, where, and how. It is no more than I would ask of any scientist making claims in any other discipline.
Your basic question is this: Can an intelligent designer exist and intervene in the evolution of life on this planet? And, you want empirical evidence to support this. Here's my empirical evidence in answer to the more general question: Can an intelligent designer exist and intervene on this planet? The tilma of Juan Diego that hangs in the Basilica of Our Lady of Gaudalupe on the outskirts of Mexico City. The formation of its image (including the image of a kneeling Juan Diego himself in the eye of the Woman) cannot be explained scientifically. There are no known methods that could reproduce the image; i.e., no human agency could have brought it about 400 years ago. Math Girl, if you can't explain the tilma's image, then admit outside agency. If you refuse to admit outside agency, then admit that you're completely closed to the possibility of any kind of outside agency. (A recourse to "aliens", one must admit, is a quite interesting possibility to entertain. After all, it is recourse to something that is beyond ALL empirical observation, and the positing of agency to that which is not known to exist. Isn't that precisely your complaint should someone invoke a Designer: viz., He is not empirically observable and since He's outside of our world, He cannot act within it? Despite these objections to a Designer, you willing concede them to "aliens". How interesting, eh?)PaV
February 25, 2011
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Segue BACK to the OP- Art Hunt was trying to produce evidence that the blind watchmaker could produce irreducibl complex systems- IOW there isn't any requirement for a designer to produce IC. Even if true his examples only apply to that level of complexity (or less). If theexamples don't reach the 5 component complexity level of the mousetrap, then it would be obvious they do not apply to anything IDists have claimed. Then there is the problem of mechanism- as in how was it detrmined the mechanism that produced it is a blind watchmaker mechansim.Joseph
February 25, 2011
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MathGrrl: The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Yup your position makes claims yet can't support them. MathGrrl: You are claiming that an intelligent designer exists and intervenes in the evolution of life on this planet. ID doesn't make such claims. MathGrrl:
Where is the positive evidence that explicitly supports your position?
All over the place. Just look around.Joseph
February 25, 2011
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MathGrrl:
If you choose to reply, please don’t simply attempt to argue against modern evolutionary theory. I’m asking for empirical observations that positively support ID, without reference to other views.
That's a joke, right? I say that because part of the design inference is to eliminate other views- they cannot be ignored. Ya see we don't infer we ae holding an artifact if nature, operating freely can produce it. We don't infer a homicide if it is a natural death. The design inference is always referenced against alternatives.Joseph
February 25, 2011
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kairosfocus,
I have provided a summary of evidence [actually naming a scientist who is beignning to miniaturise and apply to biosystems the already decades old practice of embedded systems engineering using digital control systems technology -- abundant empirical evidence], and you want to shift a burden of proof, when in fact you have no evidence for your evolutionary materialistic contention whatsoever.
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You are claiming that an intelligent designer exists and intervenes in the evolution of life on this planet. I am asking you to provide empirical evidence for this claim to answer the questions of who, what, when, where, and how. It is no more than I would ask of any scientist making claims in any other discipline. Where is the positive evidence that explicitly supports your position?MathGrrl
February 25, 2011
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Pedant: Can you explain, in empirical, observational evidence backed up steps, how the organised, functionally specific complexity of the flagellum, the eyes and immune systems originated per the design thesis? It is all about our knowledge of cause and effect relationships. Therefor to refute any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate chance and necessity can account for it. Something other than a bald declaration please. See The Design Inference- How it WorksJoseph
February 25, 2011
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markf:
We observe the bacterial flagellum. Therefore it was designed. We observe a variety of eyes. Therefore it was designed. We observe a variety of immune systems. Therefore it was designed.
Nope, ID is not the polar negative of the ToE. The ToE makes bald claims, the design inference is based on our knowledge of cause and effect relationships.Joseph
February 25, 2011
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F/N 2: similarly, what is the known, routine source of digital, prescriptive coded instructions, programs and algorithms used in discrete state controlled processes, again?kairosfocus
February 25, 2011
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F/N: Do you really want to go through a course in embedded systems design?kairosfocus
February 25, 2011
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MG: Turnabout fallacy. I have provided a summary of evidence [actually naming a scientist who is beignning to miniaturise and apply to biosystems the already decades old practice of embedded systems engineering using digital control systems technology -- abundant empirical evidence], and you want to shift a burden of proof, when in fact you have no evidence for your evolutionary materialistic contention whatsoever. Utterly revealing. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 25, 2011
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kairosfocus, I would also be very interested in seeing a direct, detailed answer to Pedant's above question ("Can you explain, in empirical, observational evidence backed up steps, how the organised, functionally specific complexity of the flagellum, the eyes and immune systems originated per the design thesis?"). Neither of your responses provide any reference to empirical evidence nor to the specific steps that were taken, according to your design thesis, to create CSI. If you choose to reply, please don't simply attempt to argue against modern evolutionary theory. I'm asking for empirical observations that positively support ID, without reference to other views.MathGrrl
February 25, 2011
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Pedant: That is actually simple enough: we have abundant direct observational experience of the design of functionally specific complex systems. And, EMBEDDED PROCESSOR, DIGITAL SYSTEMS ARE A CASE IN POINT. We have not as of yet mastered the nanotech to go genetic level engineering but the work of a Craig venter and co, plainly show the way we will go in upcoming decades. Your attempted turnabout self-destructs. And, it reveals the blatant absence of evidence that has been swept aside in the rush to create the impression that the darwinian macroevolutionary theory is comparable in empirically tested support to the theory of Gravitation. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 25, 2011
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Pedant, Since you have, in your very own short post generated, by Intelligence, far more information than anyone has ever witnessed generated by material processes, then Intelligence is the only known presently acting cause sufficient to explain the effect (information) in question; Stephen C. Meyer - The Scientific Basis For Intelligent Design - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4104651/ further note; That the information found in life vastly exceeds, in integrated complexity, what man has ever produced in his best computer programs, and that the fundamental processes of 'life' tend to be optimal in regards to the parameters allowed by the laws of physics, and that the universe is shown to be Theistic in its foundation, instead of materialistic, is what gives us a solid basis for arguing life is Intelligently designed, indeed for arguing the entire universe is designed with 'life in mind'; further note; Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry - Physics Professor - John Hopkins University Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the "illusion" of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry's referenced experiment and paper - “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 - “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (personally I feel the word "illusion" was a bit too strong from Dr. Henry to describe material reality and would myself have opted for his saying something a little more subtle like; "material reality is a "secondary reality" that is dependent on the primary reality of God's mind" to exist. Then again I'm not a professor of physics at a major university as Dr. Henry is.) http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 The falsification for local realism (materialism) was recently greatly strengthened: Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism - November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Systems biology: Untangling the protein web - July 2009 Excerpt: Vidal thinks that technological improvements — especially in nanotechnology, to generate more data, and microscopy, to explore interaction inside cells, along with increased computer power — are required to push systems biology forward. "Combine all this and you can start to think that maybe some of the information flow can be captured," he says. But when it comes to figuring out the best way to explore information flow in cells, Tyers jokes that it is like comparing different degrees of infinity. "The interesting point coming out of all these studies is how complex these systems are — the different feedback loops and how they cross-regulate each other and adapt to perturbations are only just becoming apparent," he says. "The simple pathway models are a gross oversimplification of what is actually happening." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v460/n7253/full/460415a.html William Bialek - Professor Of Physics - Princeton University: Excerpt: "A central theme in my research is an appreciation for how well things “work” in biological systems. It is, after all, some notion of functional behavior that distinguishes life from inanimate matter, and it is a challenge to quantify this functionality in a language that parallels our characterization of other physical systems. Strikingly, when we do this (and there are not so many cases where it has been done!), the performance of biological systems often approaches some limits set by basic physical principles. While it is popular to view biological mechanisms as an historical record of evolutionary and developmental compromises, these observations on functional performance point toward a very different view of life as having selected a set of near optimal mechanisms for its most crucial tasks.,,,The idea of performance near the physical limits crosses many levels of biological organization, from single molecules to cells to perception and learning in the brain,,,," http://www.princeton.edu/~wbialek/wbialek.htmlbornagain77
February 25, 2011
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kf: Can you explain, in empirical, observational evidence backed up steps, how the organised, functionally specific complexity of the flagellum, the eyes and immune systems originated per the design thesis?Pedant
February 25, 2011
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