Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

On worshiping the right God: Jerry Coyne asks a sensible question

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

It had to happen sooner or later. Professor Jerry Coyne has identified what he sees as an inconsistency in Dr. William Lane Craig’s Divine Command theory of ethics, and after reading his latest post on the subject, I have to agree that Coyne is basically right and Craig is wrong. Consider the following statements by Professor Craig (see here and here):

Remember: on perfect being theology, God is a maximally great being, a being which is worthy of worship.

According to the version of divine command ethics which I’ve defended, our moral duties are constituted by the commands of a holy and loving God.

On voluntaristic theories God’s commands are based upon His free will alone. He arbitrarily chooses what values are good or bad and what our obligations and prohibitions are….

Most divine command theorists [including Craig himself – VJT] are non-voluntarists who hold that moral values are not grounded in God’s will but in His nature. Moral duties are grounded in His will or commands; but moral values are prior to His will, since God’s own nature is not something invented by God. Since His will is not independent of His nature but must express His nature, it is logically impossible for Him to issue certain sorts of commands. In order to do so, He would have to have a different nature, which is logically impossible. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

So far, so good, but Craig also says this:

On divine command theory, then, God has the right to command an act, which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been sin, but which is now morally obligatory in virtue of that command. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

One might ask: could God legitimately command someone to kill, then, or would that be murder? Craig responds:

No, it’s not. Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God’s commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder.

Comments Coyne:

If that’s not voluntaristic DCT [Divine Command Theory], I don’t know what is. It basically says that God’s commands ARE the arbiter of right and wrong.

I have to say that I think Coyne has a legitimate point here. In order for Professor Craig to extricate himself from the inconsistency that he appears to have fallen into, he would have to do the following:

(1) show that there are certain actions that God could not possibly command us to do, because they would be contrary to His character;
(2) specify at least some of these things that God cannot command us to do; and
(3) explain why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.

Meeting the first requirement is fairly easy, if one defines God as a maximally perfect (and hence, all-loving) being, as Craig does. For then it follows that God could not command any action which can only be justified by appeal to values which run contrary to universal love.

The real problem, as I see it, lies in the second requirement. Consider the example of torture. If the infliction of torture is not self-evidently wrong, then it is hard to see what would be. But now consider a surgeon operating on a patient back in the old days before anesthetics had been invented. Surgical patients had to be forcibly held down during operations, because the pain was so great. Was that torture? “Obviously not!”, I hear you reply. “After all, the surgeon was intending to heal the patient, and the infliction of pain was unintentional.” But now consider this: what if God is like a surgeon, inflicting pain on us for our own good? C.S. Lewis explored this possibility in his book, A Grief Observed:

The terrible thing is that a perfectly good God is in this matter hardly less formidable than a Cosmic Sadist. The more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe that there is any use in begging for tenderness. A cruel man might be bribed—might grow tired of his vile sport—might have a temporary fit of mercy, as alcoholics have fits of sobriety. But suppose that what you are up against is a surgeon whose intentions are wholly good. The kinder and more conscientious he is, the more inexorably he will go on cutting. If he yielded to your entreaties, if he stopped before the operation was complete, all the pain up to that point would have been useless. But is it credible that such extremities of torture should be necessary for us? Well, take your choice. The tortures occur. If they are unnecessary, then there is no God or a bad one. If there is a good God, then these tortures are necessary. For no even moderately good Being could possibly inflict or permit them if they weren’t.

But now ask yourself this: what if God, instead of inflicting these tortures on us Himself for our own good, were to ask some human being to inflict them, acting in His name? Would it be possible for an all-loving God to command someone to do that? If you are inclined to answer “Yes,” then you can no longer hold that God could never command us to torture someone.

“But surely,” it will be urged, “an all-loving God could never command the torture of innocent children?” Not so fast. What if God (by virtue of His infallible foreknowledge) foresees that if a certain degree of suffering is not inflicted on this child, he will grow up to become a bad person, and eventually be damned? Would it then be consistent with the character of an all-loving God to command a human being to inflict the torture on the child – perhaps because it would have a more salutary effect on the child if it is inflicted by a human authority figure (e.g. a parent or schoolmaster)? And where does one draw the line between corporal punishment and torture, anyway? It seems that someone acting with good intentions, and at the behest of a Being possessing unlimited foreknowledge could justly inflict any degree of pain on an innocent human being, provided they knew that it was necessary for that person’s ultimate good.

Now, someone might object that while it would be theoretically possible for God to act in this way, it would be epistemically irrational for any human being to trust what purported to be a vision of God commanding them to torture someone: for how could they be sure that the Being in the vision was God, and not the Devil? And since critical reason is a God-given gift, God could hardly blame us for prudently rejecting any such command – which in turn means that it could never be obligatory, which implies that God could never justly command such a thing in the first place. But this objection assumes that it is impossible in principle for a human being to distinguish a vision from God and one from the Devil. That hardly seems likely. And if it were true, it would rule out the possibility of our having a warranted belief in any revealed religion.

One way out of this ethical impasse would be to hold that there are certain things which it is morally acceptable for God to do, but which He may not command human beings to do. On this view, it may be all right for Him to inflict painful tribulations on people, for the sake of their ultimate good (i.e. their eternal salvation), but it could never be right for Him to command us to inflict these tribulations on our fellow human beings.

Fair enough; but then the nagging question arises: why, precisely? Why would it be wrong principle for us to do these things to others, if God may licitly do them? One plausible answer is that it would violate some principle of fellowship which we share with our fellow human beings: all men are brothers, and you don’t torture your own brother. But you don’t kill your own brother, either. If torturing another human being contravenes the principle of fellowship, then surely killing another human being does so, too. In that case, Professor Craig will be unable to meet the third requirement I specified above: explaining why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.

Another possible answer is that the act of inflicting torture is inherently desensitizing, for the person who inflicts it: it hardens the torturer’s heart and dehumanizes him in the process, corrupting his soul and placing his own salvation in mortal peril. And since God cares about the salvation of each and every human being, He could not justly command one person to inflict torture on another human being: while the act just might (conceivably) prove to be conducive to the eternal salvation of the victim, it would at the same time jeopardize the eternal salvation of the torturer. But once again, it seems that the same train of logic would rule out the possibility of God commanding one human being to kill another. For if killing someone is not desensitizing, then what is?

There’s another problem with the “desensitization” argument, too. God, being omnipotent, can heal the wounds of the heart. That which has been desensitized, he can re-sensitize. What if God were to reassure the torturer that He would reverse the hardening of the heart resulting from obeying His commands – or even better, prevent it from occurring in the first place?

Perhaps, then, we need a more radical solution. Perhaps it would be wrong not only for human beings, but also for God to deliberately inflict pain on human beings, even if it is intended for the sake of their ultimate good (e.g. to break their stubborn pride and induce them to repent). “Why?” one might ask. Because the supposition is premised on the assumption that God knows what would happen to us if the pain were not inflicted – in other words, that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, if placed in these particular circumstances (e.g. the statement that if I were to suffer paralysis, I would repent and turn to God). But if we have genuine libertarian free will, then it seems that such statements make no sense: for what they amount to is a kind of psychological determinism.

This sounds more promising, but it also entails that God may not justly bring about someone’s death for the sake of procuring their salvation – a conclusion that some believers may find surprising and even counterintuitive.

Another apparent problem with the radical solution proposed above is that while it seems absurd to suppose that there is a there is a true counterfactual statement about what I would or would not choose, in each and every possible situation, there are surely at least some true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, in some situations. For instance, if I were starving, I would surely eat a piece of bread that was dangled in front of my nose. And if I were an alcoholic, then there are surely some situations in which I would find a glass of wine irresistible.

Now, a libertarian might grant this, but still urge that to the extent that there are true counterfactual statements about what I would or would not choose, in some situations, then precisely to that extent, my will is not genuinely free. And since decisions which are not genuinely free are not truly choices on my part, they cannot possibly be conducive to my ultimate good or eternal salvation. (For if I am eventually saved, it can only be through some freely chosen act on my part, even if the supernatural grace required to make that choice can only come from God.) Hence it would be impossible for God to appeal to these counterfactuals in order to justify inflicting pain or death on innocent people.

In that case, then, we have to conclude that God is not like the surgeon after all: He does not inflict pain or death on people for their ultimate good.

So where are we now? It seems that the acts which God cannot command us to do – and which God cannot justly do either – are simply those which are not good for us. And we cannot appeal to counterfactuals about good consequences that would occur or bad consequences that would be avoided, in order to justify the performance of these acts. For as we have seen, these counterfactuals are irrelevant to the extent that we possess libertarian free will.

So far we have only spoken of the innocent, but what of the guilty? May God justly punish the guilty? Surely the answer is yes. May He then command human beings to punish the guilty, acting in His name? And if so, is there any limit to the punishment that one human being may inflict upon another, when acting at God’s behest?

Here, it seems, the difficulty is genuine. For whatever one thinks of corporal and capital punishment, there are surely some cases where the infliction of these punishments brings wicked people to their senses, causing them to repent of their sins. And who among us (little children excepted) is not guilty of some personal sin? (I am not speaking here of original sin.) It seems, then, that there is no reason in principle why God could not justly command one person to punish another. And the severity of that punishment might amount to what we would call torture.

The only answer I can propose here is that it would be out of place for God to ask a creature to perform a task which belongs to the Creator. Judgement of the wicked is a task for God (Who sees into our souls) to perform; punishments inflicted on the basis of that judgement are also God’s responsibility, not ours. Not can it be urged that the State is an instrument of God’s Will in this regard; for the purpose of the State is not to secure absolute justice, but social harmony, and lawbreakers are punished only insofar as they disrupt this harmony by tearing a hole in the fabric of society. For this reason, a pure theocracy, in which human judges strove to be instruments of God’s Will, would be a fundamentally immoral society.

And that’s about as far as my deliberations have taken me. But perhaps I have overlooked something. What do readers think?

One last request. Could we please keep the Bible out of the arguments below, for the sake of polite discussion? I’d like readers to try to resolve the difficulties I have posed above, by appealing to general ethical principles. And now, over to you.

Comments
Hi everyone, Some people have asked why a topic like this should even come up for discussion at Uncommon Descent. That's a fair question - Intelligent Design is a science, after all. But one could argue that ethics too, albeit of a practical sort. Because the modern scientific method eschews norms (and final causes), ethics appears unscientific to modern eyes. But if one is willing to allow (as Aristotle would have done) that what is good for us is something written into our nature as human beings, then it follows that there could be unconditionally binding ethical norms, which it could never be good for us to violate. Here's where the relevance to Intelligent Design comes in. According to some Intelligent Design arguments (e.g. Robin Collins' version of the fine-tuning argument), the entire cosmos (by which I mean the multiverse, and not just our universe) is the product of an Intelligent Designer, Who therefore transcends the laws of space and time. In other words, if Intelligent esign is true, then a transcendent Creator is a live option. But (a skeptic might object), if such a Creator existed, He would be beholden to no-one, and would be able to command any human being to do anything. That in turn would make a mockery of the science of ethics. Consequently (the objection goes), we can make a reductio argument: 1. If Intelligent Design theory is true, then a Transcendent Creator possibly exists. 2. If a Transcendent Creator exists, there are no absolute ethical obligations. 3. But there are absolute ethical obligations. 4. Therefore a Transcendent Creator cannot possibly exist. 5. Therefore Intelligent Design theory is false. Of course, I realize that the vast majority of skeptics wouldn't accept premise 3 anyway, as they're utilitarians (and usually act utilitarians at that). However, a skeptic who adhered to a naturalistic theory of ethics (say, a Kantian atheist, or an Ayn Rand-style objectivist who adheres to a broadly Aristotelian ethic) could argue in this fashion, and could invoke the above syllogism as an argument for refusing even to bother examining the scientific claims of Intelligent Design theory. Thus the scientific case for ID would never even get off the ground: such a skeptic would probably refuse to even listen to it. In order to get through to this skeptic, it is first necessary to deflate their logic. And to do that, one must show why the assumption that if a transcendent Creator existed, He would be beholden to no-one, and would be able to command any human being to do anything, is wrong. That in turn requires a careful and critical examination of the Divine command theory of ethics. One must be able to show that there are certain kinds of actions which an all-loving transcendent Creator could never command anyone to perform. And since it is at least plausible to suppose that a transcendent Creator would be all-loving, it follows that the claim that such a Creator could command any human being to do anything is false. It may be objected that one should examine the scientific claims of Intelligent Design first, in an impartial fashion, before making up their minds about its merits. In the real world, however, people seldom make up their minds in such a logical fashion. Many people think with their hearts first, rather than their heads. It is for that reason that I believe the post I wrote is relevant. Cheers.vjtorley
September 23, 2014
September
09
Sep
23
23
2014
02:22 AM
2
02
22
AM
PDT
anthropic, Thank you for your posts. You ask:
If God has perfect foreknowledge of all our choices before we make them, how to explain Esther? Was the prophet lying when he told her that God had prepared plan B to save the Jews in case she didn’t step up? Did God deceive the prophet? If the answer to the last two questions is No, why in the world would God prepare a plan B since He knew it would not be needed?... Note the counterfactuals –If you remain silent (she didn’t) then deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place but you and your father’s house will perish. None of that happened. But the question remains, why mention these things if God knew Esther would step up? Why look for counterfactuals for an event that did not and could not happen?
I believe that these verses actually support a Boethian view of free will (see my comment #53 above) rather than a Molinist view. For why would God need a plan B if He infallibly foreknew what Esther would choose to do when told about Haman's evil plans? There would be no need to warn her that if she remained silent, then deliverance would arise for the Jews from another place, if God knew Esther would step up to the plate. In other words, what these verses suggest is that God's knowledge that Esther would step up and rescue her people was ex post facto - not in a temporal sense, but in a logical sense. That is, God knows what we will do because He is (timelessly) made aware of what we do, as a result of our making the choices that we do. It is precisely because God doesn't know in advance (logically speaking) what each of us would do in every possible situation that God has to devise a Plan B, and maybe a plan C, D and E as well (including supernatural deliverance if all His human agents fail Him). Molinism, on the other hand, credits God with perfect counterfactual knowledge, so on this view (which Craig also accepts), there would never be a need for a plan B. I hope that answers your question. Cheers.vjtorley
September 23, 2014
September
09
Sep
23
23
2014
01:54 AM
1
01
54
AM
PDT
Hi Matthew Flanagan, Thank you for your spirited defense of Dr. William Lane Craig. I think you have established that Jerry Coyne's quotation from Dr. Craig's writings was rather selective, and that when viewed in context, Craig is not a theological voluntarist. Summing up Craig's position, you write:
Craig in fact in his writings claims that a general command allowing killing for any reason at all would be contrary to these character traits and so God can't issue such a command. However, there are rare circumstances where God can command killing for some greater good... ... Craig explains that in saying that God has the prerogative can take human life at his discretion he does not mean he can command anything at all. He explicitly denies that God can issue a general command to kill human beings for example. It's only in exceptional cases where doing so serves some greater good that such a command would be compatible with God's nature.
Fair enough. But I don't think that's a satisfactory response to the triple challenge that I said Craig had to meet:
In order for Professor Craig to extricate himself from the inconsistency that he appears to have fallen into, he would have to do the following: (1) show that there are certain actions that God could not possibly command us to do, because they would be contrary to His character; (2) specify at least some of these things that God cannot command us to do; and (3) explain why ending someone’s life isn’t one of the things that God cannot command us to do.
You comment:
But Craig does do this: re (1) and (2) he states there are certain actions that God could not possibly command us to do. God can’t issue a command that makes it a general moral duty to kill others. The denial that in general or ordinary circumstances it’s wrong to kill is incompatible with God's character. Re (3) Craig argues that in rare circumstances where killing promotes some greater good, it is compatible with his character. (Italics mine - VJT.)
All you've shown here is that God cannot issue the general command, "Kill whenever you feel like it." But what I was asking was somthing different: is there any kind of action which is never justifiable for human beings to perform (with or without a Divine command) under any circumstances? That was what I meant by my condition number (2). In other words, is there any kind of action that would be intrinsically wrong for human beings to perform, full stop, and not just generally wrong? You have conceded that killing is not an action which is intrinsically wrong for human beings to perform: "there are rare circumstances where God can command killing for some greater good." So that brings me back to my question about God's commanding someone to inflict pain on another human being. In principle, the infliction of pain on another human being might prove to have a salutary effect on their spiritual well-being. And if (as Craig believes) God has a perfect knowledge of how each person would react to having pain inflicted on them, then God would know precisely which people would benefit from having pain inflicted on them. He would also know if those people would benefit more from having a human being (acting at His behest) inflict the pain on them, in lieu of His inflicting the pain Himself. Moreover, there seems to be no reason in principle why the salutary effects of pain inflicted at God's command would cut out once the pain exceeds a certain level - say, 1,000 units (I don't know how one measures pain, but I'm sure you remember the scene in 1984 where O'Brien turns the torture machine up to 3,000 volts). What this means is that in principle, if Craig is right, God could (under rare circumstances) command one human being to inflict any amount of pain on another human being. What's more, that human being could even be a baby, if God (using His "middle knowledge" of what each of us would choose in every possible future) sees that it would be in the baby's best long-term interests to be tortured. I think that's a pretty disturbing moral implication of Craig's theory, even if Craig doesn't draw it himself. Don't you?vjtorley
September 23, 2014
September
09
Sep
23
23
2014
01:38 AM
1
01
38
AM
PDT
#119 kairosfocus Sad, isn't it?Dionisio
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
11:08 PM
11
11
08
PM
PDT
#118 Querius
Dionisio, Apparently, you’re too bold! ;-) -Q
Oh, I see what you mean. :) Too specific, too direct. :) Some folks don't like that. They get very upset when facing simple questions. As long as I'm not the one getting upset, I can live with that. :)Dionisio
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
11:05 PM
11
11
05
PM
PDT
D, G2 is a long-term objector who violently objects to the idea that some people may actually find the design inference a legitimate exercise in scientific, inductive reasoning. The undertone is obvious, just from comments and insinuations above. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
10:49 PM
10
10
49
PM
PDT
Dionisio, Apparently, you're too bold! ;-) -QQuerius
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
10:48 PM
10
10
48
PM
PDT
Mung: Logic is the basis of reasoning, including scientific reasoning that seeks to warrant knowledge claims about our world. The design inference is about abductive form inductive reasoning on signs such as FSCO/I in light of general patterns of actual observation and linked analysis -- and I have just linked one of those pesky pages about science that objectors so studiously avoid when they are on the opening page, as was remarked. Mathematics is closely linked and last I checked is a dominant feature of my home discipline, physics. A check of say Arxiv will easily confirm that. Matters of phil, ethics and broader worldviews and cultural agendas come up in the context that ideology is a significant issue on origins sciences when we have blatant imposition of a priori Lewontinian materialism and given that notoriously, atheism and other ideas have consequences. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
10:46 PM
10
10
46
PM
PDT
#114 KF Thank you for the clarification. Still, why does he oppose my views so strongly?Dionisio
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
10:44 PM
10
10
44
PM
PDT
#111 Graham2
Dionisio: Now Im curious. What on earth are you going on about?. You have obviously discovered bold, is that it ?
Is this your reaction to my post #107 ? Can't you do better than this? :)Dionisio
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
10:37 PM
10
10
37
PM
PDT
D, to violently disagree usually means, strongly, and expressed with words and gestures that show considerable emphasis or agitation. KF PS: I think the site, the free dictionary should be helpful to those for whom English is a very second language. (And for many for whom it is a first one.)kairosfocus
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
10:36 PM
10
10
36
PM
PDT
phoodoo@106,
. . . and for all you know there could be 5000 different designers, or as many designers as there are people.
Really? And where did I say that there was only one intelligence?
I think it says nothing at all about the mind of any intelligence that may be behind it. It simply says that it is not random.
Aliens see New York City from space. Some of them concede that "it's not random," but argue that there's no evidence that any intelligence behind it, that it's all due to differential erosion, mineral intrusions, and natural electrical charges. Yeah, right.
It is definitely not a subject within the scope of intelligent design.
What do you mean? That's the whole point of ID, the presumption of intelligence given the admitted appearance of design, and the abject bankruptcy of naturalistic explanations. -QQuerius
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
10:32 PM
10
10
32
PM
PDT
Anthropic, You're confusing Mordecai with God. What you quoted was Mordecai's stated opinion. God is never even mentioned in Esther. -QQuerius
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
10:09 PM
10
10
09
PM
PDT
Dionisio: Now Im curious. What on earth are you going on about?. You have obviously discovered bold, is that it ?Graham2
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
09:47 PM
9
09
47
PM
PDT
Axel 69 Esther 4: 9 - 14: "Hathach came back and related Mordecai's words to Esther. 10Then Esther spoke to Hathach and ordered him to reply to Mordecai: 11"All the king's servants and the people of the king's provinces know that for any man or woman who comes to the king to the inner court who is not summoned, he has but one law, that he be put to death, unless the king holds out to him the golden scepter so that he may live. And I have not been summoned to come to the king for these thirty days." 12They related Esther's words to Mordecai. 13Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther, "Do not imagine that you in the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. 14For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?" Note the counterfactuals --If you remain silent (she didn't) then deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place but you and your father's house will perish. None of that happened. But the question remains, why mention these things if God knew Esther would step up? Why look for counterfactuals for an event that did not and could not happen?anthropic
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
09:35 PM
9
09
35
PM
PDT
Vishnu 72 Vishnu, I don't mean to insult your belief system, but if at the end of the "game", Brahman laughs at disease, child molestation, rape, torture, and murder, then I want no part of Brahman. Indeed, Brahman is lower than me morally, deeply flawed as I am, because at least I can recognize injustice for what it is. One of the reasons I believe in the God of the Bible is that Jesus wept over Jerusalem, knowing what was coming of its rejection of Him. This God knows that evil is both real and consequential. In fact, it breaks His heart. Amazingly, He still gives us a real choice to defy Him, because to do otherwise would render our lives meaningless and insignificant.anthropic
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
09:19 PM
9
09
19
PM
PDT
#89 william spearshake
Dionisio: “Definitely the moderators of this site are very patient and flexible, hence they allow all kinds of commenters here. You should be thankful to them after all. “
Well, at least this statement proves that creationists have a sense of humour.
By allowing you and your fellow travelers to post in this site, the moderators of this blog prove they have a sense of humor, because this way the rest of us have fun reading the incoherent gibberish y'all write sometimes. :) Free entertainment! FYI: [incoherent gibberish = incomprehensible hogwash] :)Dionisio
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
09:13 PM
9
09
13
PM
PDT
#66 Graham2
Dionisio: I violently disagree with your theology,…
violently disagree? violently? What does that mean? Can you explain? Thank you.
94 Graham2
Dionisio: In a moment of weakness I was being nice to 2 people at once, (you & vjt), that’s all. No big deal.
being nice ? No big deal ? This confirms that the moderators of this site are very patient and flexible.Dionisio
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
08:58 PM
8
08
58
PM
PDT
Querius, you said: "I wouldn’t go that far. For example, do you think that the astonishing complexity of DNA, epigenetics, overlapping coding, fault tolerance and correction, complex interdependent chemical cycles, and ingenious engineering doesn’t say anything about the intelligence behind it? " Yes, I think it says nothing at all about the mind of any intelligence that may be behind it. It simply says that it is not random. It is certainly not going to tell you anything about the ethics of the designer, and for all you know there could be 5000 different designers, or as many designers as there are people. It is definitely not a subject within the scope of intelligent design.phoodoo
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
08:33 PM
8
08
33
PM
PDT
Upright BiPed, Speaking of scoffers, have you seen this oldy-but-goodie? http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html -QQuerius
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
08:29 PM
8
08
29
PM
PDT
The point, Graham, which you steadfastly resist, is that the condition of physical evidence is wholly un-effected by your mockery.Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
07:46 PM
7
07
46
PM
PDT
WS: UBP actually had a point. I mercilessly mock belief systems, particularly anything involving spirits in the sky. Its not directed at any person, it is directed at the idea, but the difference seems to be that the religious become extremely upset at this, they take it very personally indeed. If I was friends with the creator of the universe I would be untroubled by the annoying gnats.Graham2
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
07:39 PM
7
07
39
PM
PDT
I completely agree. This topic has been moot for some time. What is left is the physical evidence - which neither you, nor anyone else, can refute.Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
07:31 PM
7
07
31
PM
PDT
UBP, I don't think that any side can take pride in our behaviour at all times. And I'm sure that Graham2 would agree. But since ID supporters almost never get banned from this site (I used the word 'almost' to give you the benefit of the doubt), in spite of behaviour, this discussion is moot.william spearshake
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
07:25 PM
7
07
25
PM
PDT
Be my guest. I am not the one left to complain about etiquette. It should serve your purpose.Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
07:14 PM
7
07
14
PM
PDT
UBP: Should I now go back and dredge up all your angry, aggressive, insulting remarks ? I have a search function too.Graham2
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
07:08 PM
7
07
08
PM
PDT
Grudge? No. My computer has a search function. I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy.Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
07:00 PM
7
07
00
PM
PDT
UBP: Jeez, how far back did you go to dredge that stuff up ? You really carry a grudge don't you ?Graham2
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
06:56 PM
6
06
56
PM
PDT
Or, is it this?
"ID focuses on empirical science … I presume thats a typo.
Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
06:53 PM
6
06
53
PM
PDT
Graham,
We are still waiting for a priest to give us a cure for a disease. Chipped in to a stone tablet would be fine. - Graham
Is this the common courtesy you are talking about?Upright BiPed
September 22, 2014
September
09
Sep
22
22
2014
06:51 PM
6
06
51
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 6

Leave a Reply