Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Orthomyxo Types on Keyboard; When Letters Appear on Screen “It’s Physical!”

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The appalling depths to which materialists will sink in attempting to insulate themselves from the conclusions compelled by the evidence were demonstrated in this exchange between Orthomyxo and Upright Biped regarding the genetic code:

UB: There is a point in time and space where an association is made between a codon and an anticodon. There is also a point in time and space when there is an association made between an anticodon and an amino acid.

UB: the association between the codon and the amino acid is a discontinuous association. It is not established by dynamics, but by a) a specific type of organization, and b) simultaneous coordination between two independent sets of multiple sequences

Note that the nothing UB said is the least bit controversial. All he is saying is that the genetic code works like any other code. As KF frequently notes, Crick knew this from the very beginning. Nearly 70 years ago (March 19, 1952) he wrote:

Which is why Orthomyxo’s reply is so stunning. Ortho’s deeply held metaphysical views are threatened by UB’s observation, so he says:

I really can’t say I find this to be a very good argument. The question is does the genetic code work through a series of chemical reactions. You say the chemical reaction that links amino acid to tRNA and the one that links loaded tRNAs to a codon are “discontinuous” because they happen at different times. (I presume by this you a referring to the fact loaded tRNAs used in translation are drawn from a pool of already made “translation-ready” tRNAs?). But I don’t see how that changes the fact that the genetic code works via a series of chemical reactions.

Ortho: Never mind that hyper-sophisticated “string data structure carrying a prong-height-based alphanumeric, 4 state per character code that uses chemical interactions and geometry at physical level.”* Nothing to see here. It’s chemical reactions all the way down.

UB sums up Ortho’s willfully obdurate reaction to the evidence:

You can push the “A” key on your computer and the letter “A” will appear on your screen. You can then ignore everything else and steadfastly argue that this entire process “works” by dynamics. This is the cop out that Ed chooses because he is intellectually unwilling to face the necessary coordination of symbol vehicles and constraints (i.e. the discontinuous association) required for the system to actually function as it does. If this is your cop out as well, then you are certainly free to take it. Is this your cop out? Regardless of your answer to that question, when you say that it is ”absolutely the case that the next amino acid in a developing protein is determined by chemistry” you are wrong. That chain of events from DNA to binding is undeniably discontinuous, just as it is from the “A” key on your computer to the letter “A” appearing on your screen.

__________

*HT: KF

Comments
Upright BiPed: Yup I don't know what you want from me. When I'm honest you accuse me of being dishonest and manipulative. If I disagree with you how am I suppose to response so that you won't dismiss my responses? Do I have to agree with you to avoid your derision?JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL, there you go again, dismissing empirically observable informational, string data structure -- thus, physical! -- evidence that shows language at work in the heart of the cell. You demand separate direct evidence when there is evidence that cannot be shown to arise by blind chance and/or necessity but on trillions of cases (including your own comments) readily comes about by intelligently directed configuration aka design. Where, our existence demonstrates that designers are possible while giving utterly no reason to doubt that other designers may also be possible. This is a capital example of disregarding cogent but inconvenient evidence in hand by demanding that it be dismissed, while pretending to be open to evidence that you would be just as inclined to dismiss were it put on the table. Kindly, think again. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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EG, again, you set up and knocked over a strawman. Kindly go to either of the two threads I have put up in the past few days and ponder what layer-cake architectures are about. The physical layer is only one aspect of such a system, codes and protocols are pivotal and in fact set the framework for the physical layer. Further to this, it is not even true that humans are the sole users of language; honey bees may have a thing or two to show you. But, more directly, we EXEMPLIFY language-using intelligence, demonstrating its possibility. As contingent creatures we cannot exhaust possibilities, as was specifically pointed out. But was of course also ignored in hate to set up and knock over a false representation. In the case of the D/RNA protein code, we have alphanumeric, algorithmic symbolic information in strings which patently antedates humanity or even cell based life on Earth. The fact that ID thinkers have long explained how complex linguistically meaningful strings beyond 500 - 1,000 bits -- per search challenge on Sol system or observed cosmos gamut -- are not plausibly the result of blind search due to inability to explore more than a negligibly tiny fraction of the configuration space should be recognised and cogently addressed. That it isn't tells us volumes about your disregard for responsibilities of reason. The balance on merits is clear, and if someone is struggling to figure it out, your irresponsible rhetorical stunts are a huge clue. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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I find it amusing that the two issues that have garnered the most passionate disagreement from IDists here in the last couple days (aside from COVID-19) were the reaction to two incontestably factual statements that I made. 1) That DNA works through chemical reactions, and, 2) That humans are the only known source of language. As KF would say, this speaks volumes, and not in ID’s favour.Ed George
May 9, 2020
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.
2) You are factually incorrect. If SETI receives a confirmed narrow-band radio signal from space they will announce their discovery of an intelligence beyond earth. Not a single scientist at SETI is going to stand in front of a radio transmitter, with head in hand, and ponder “golly” how to get that signal any other way. 2) You are not merely disagreeing with the interpretation, you are avoiding acknowledgement of the science and history behind the interpretation. You are saying the science is not what it is, and telling yourself that you are merely disagreeing with the interpretation. Those are two very different things. (you will dissemble in your answer to #2 in both instances)
YupUpright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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. #98
After my throw-away comment
Suddenly its a "throw away comment", and then comes back at the end of his post and repeats it yet again, like it will be more forceful and washed of its incoherence a second time.. You can't make this stuff up.Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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ET: And yet they are used and verified every day. And it remains what ID has is light years ahead of what your side has, I disagree. I haven't seen a publication laying out the various methods of design detection and showing the rate of false positives and false negatives. I haven't seen any publication of said design techniques being applied in the wild as it were. There isn't a journal of design detection (there are lots of journals specifically geared towards other techniques and procedures). The only research I am aware of (being done by the Biologic Institute) seems more focused on trying to show unguided processes are up to the job instead of support the techniques and methods of design detection. Not one scientist on this planet can refute the design inference. As I said. I read lots of arguments on both sides and came to a conclusion. And all they have to do to refute ID is step up and demonstrate that unguided processes can produce what ID says what intelligently designed. They have all the power and yet remain powerless. That alone says it all, really. I think they have shown that some biological structures could have come about through unguided processes. Your side has absolutely NOTHING. If the design inference wasn’t sound then someone should be able to refute it. And yet no one can. After having read arguments on both sides I think the design inference, as it exists, is not sound. If more work is done and/or solid, physical evidence is found of designer(s) around at the pertinent time with the necessary technical skill then I shall reconsider the issue. I just don't think, based on what I've read and been told, that the claims of design being detected are solid at this time.JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL, I have not started from design as a premise, save as a possibility in possible worlds. You are reacting to a reasonable summary of what DNA bis, because of its onward implications. Very well, there is a string of alphanumeric characters associated with JVL. They are functional as English sentences. However, I have no separate direct observation of JVL, not even the contents of his garbage cans. Therefore there is no evidence that the strings come from any intelligent source. There is therefore good reason to infer that noise working with the Internet adequately explains. This is a better interpretation. Do you see what has gone wrong? KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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Not one scientist on this planet can refute the design inference. And all they have to do to refute ID is step up and demonstrate that unguided processes can produce what ID says what intelligently designed. They have all the power and yet remain powerless. That alone says it all, really.ET
May 9, 2020
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Yes, Eddie, we already know that you don't understand how science works. Your throw-away comment just proves that point.ET
May 9, 2020
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JVL:
We’ll just have to disagree on that I guess.
Disagree all you want. You cannot refute the claim. And with Stonehenge we don't know who the people were that were found there. We don't k ow if they were maintaining a structure of building it. We don't know. But all that is moot because Stonehenge remains as an example that refutes your nonsense.ET
May 9, 2020
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Oh my God! Don’t you guys ever sleep? After my throw-away comment about their only being one intelligence known to create language, you guys have typed almost 35,000 words arguing this point, and Barry has dedicated a new OP to it. OK, if you exclude BA77’s comment, it may only be 10,000 words. None of these dispute the fact that humans are the only confirmed source of language.Ed George
May 9, 2020
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Research into what else there is besides chemical reactions in biology.
Like what?
Like immaterial information. According to ID there is more to life than physics and chemistry.ET
May 9, 2020
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ET: Your word salad doesn’t help. No one knows how to test the claims of unguided evolution. We'll just have to disagree on that I guess. Everything we know came from centuries of research and study. And we don’t know if the tools and homes found were of the original designers. Yeah, you can date them. And you can date the fill around the base of the stones that contains organic material that was put there when the stones were erected. You can also date the precursor Aubry holes around the site. (Stonehenge was clearly built in stages based on the evidence gleaned from excavations.) It's all pretty straightforward. But you might not get all the supporting details from reading a coffee table book on standing stone circles. Sometimes you have to delve into the academic publications. Or talk to people who know the research.JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL:
As I stated: I do not agree that the claims made that design has been detected are sound.
Your side has absolutely NOTHING. If the design inference wasn't sound then someone should be able to refute it. And yet no one can.ET
May 9, 2020
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JVL:
In addition I think the techniques utilised by ID proponents are not trustworthy.
And yet they are used and verified every day. And it remains what ID has is light years ahead of what your side has,
I do not agree that those processes are indicative of design.
That's because you have a bias issue. Not one scientist on this planet can refute the design inference. And all they have to do to refute ID is step up and demonstrate that unguided processes can produce what ID says what intelligently designed. They have all the power and yet remain powerless. That alone says it all, really.ET
May 9, 2020
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Kairosfocus: it is not “interpretation” but implications and empirical warrant. Behind “interpretation” lies smuggled in relativism and/or subjectivism. I'm doing my best to consider the scientific results and arguments. D/RNA shows linguistic, alphanumeric code in a molecular nanotech string technology. But there is a refusal to recognise what that points to. As I stated: I do not agree that the claims made that design has been detected are sound. I have read lots of material in support and against such claims. I have tried hard to understand the arguments made on both sides. And I have come to the conclusion (of my own free will? hmmmmm) that the design inference has not been established. I have not just 'refused' to accept what you think the data points to. I have considered the arguments and come to my own conclusion.JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL:
Well, not one you accept anyway.
No, it doesn't mention one at all.
When you think you’ve got a small piece of that big puzzle figured out you see if you can reproduce it at will. You let your colleagues and others in the field take a look at the work. You try and get it published so people all over the planet can see what you’ve done. If no one can shoot it down then it stands. Then you work on another small piece. And you start putting small pieces together.
Your word salad doesn't help. No one knows how to test the claims of unguided evolution.
We’ve got some plausible ideas of how it was constructed. And, absent a time machine (and maybe a bit more luck) that might be the best we can do. But we know there were beings around at the time capable of the proposed construction techniques; we’ve found some of their tools, their home, what they ate, etc.
Everything we know came from centuries of research and study. And we don't know if the tools and homes found were of the original designers. But thank you for proving my point.ET
May 9, 2020
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Upright BiPed: No you weren’t, you were objecting to the design inference from the predicted and confirmed use of encoded language in DNA because we have no evidence of an intelligence outside the use of encoded language in DNA. Well we don't have that evidence. No designer means no design. In addition I think the techniques utilised by ID proponents are not trustworthy. Not yet anyway. You are factually incorrect. If SETI receives a confirmed narrow-band radio signal from space they will announce their discovery of an intelligence beyond earth. Not a single scientist at SETI is going to stand in front of a radio transmitter, with head in hand, and ponder “golly” how to get that signal any other way. I don't think that's true at all. I've heard members of the staff at SETI interviewed and heard them described how they would approach such an event and their responses are mirrored the material you copy-and-pasted above. You are not merely disagreeing with the interpretation, you are avoiding acknowledgement of the science and history behind the interpretation. You are saying the science is not what it is, and telling yourself that you are merely disagreeing with the interpretation. Those are two very different things. I agree that the workings inside a cell are as stated in the mainstream literature. I do not agree that those processes are indicative of design. Not only is there no defined designer candidate but the methods used to detect design are not robust or accepted by a vast, vast majority of scientists working in the field. I have looked at the ways design has been claimed to have been detected; I have read a lot of material in support of such claims (including on this site) and I have read a lot of material not in support of such claims. I have come to the conclusion that I do not believe that it can be soundly claimed that design has been detected in biological structures and processes. I have not come to that decision based on ideological considerations such as a commitment to materialism (which I do not have). I have considered the arguments and made up my own mind.JVL
May 9, 2020
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H''mm: ET, 85: >>We don’t know how Stonehenge was made and yet saying it is an artifact is a better explanation than saying nature did it.>> Because it exhibits FSCo/I which is best explained on design. D/RNA shows linguistic, alphanumeric code in a molecular nanotech string technology. But there is a refusal to recognise what that points to. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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ET: Why is that the BEST evidence for macro-evolution does NOT include a mechanism? Well, not one you accept anyway. No one knows how to test the claim that unguided processes produced the genetic code. When you think you've got a small piece of that big puzzle figured out you see if you can reproduce it at will. You let your colleagues and others in the field take a look at the work. You try and get it published so people all over the planet can see what you've done. If no one can shoot it down then it stands. Then you work on another small piece. And you start putting small pieces together. We don’t know how Stonehenge was made and yet saying it is an artifact is a better explanation than saying nature did it. We've got some plausible ideas of how it was constructed. And, absent a time machine (and maybe a bit more luck) that might be the best we can do. But we know there were beings around at the time capable of the proposed construction techniques; we've found some of their tools, their home, what they ate, etc.JVL
May 9, 2020
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. #78
I’ve just clarified my belief
No you weren't, you were objecting to the design inference from the predicted and confirmed use of encoded language in DNA based on the reasoning that we have no evidence of an intelligence outside the use of encoded language in DNA. Your objection reads: "The design inference is invalid because we don't have any confirmed evidence except for the confirmed evidence we have". It's ridiculous.
SETI is trying to detect anomalous signals using detection equipment. IF they think they’ve found one they will work hard to first see if they can find some non-intelligent source OR if the signal actually originated on earth.
1) You are dissembling 2) You are factually incorrect. If SETI receives a confirmed narrow-band radio signal from space they will announce their discovery of an intelligence beyond earth. Not a single scientist at SETI is going to stand in front of a radio transmitter, with head in hand, and ponder "golly" how to get that signal any other way.
What I disagree with the ID design inference is the interpretation of the workings of DNA and other biological functions as necessarily having been created by some unstated form of ‘higher’ intelligence.
1) You are dissembling. 2) You are not merely disagreeing with the interpretation, you are avoiding acknowledgement of the science and history behind the interpretation. You are saying the science is not what it is, and telling yourself that you are merely disagreeing with the interpretation. Those are two very different things. (you will dissemble in your answer to #2 in both instances)Upright BiPed
May 9, 2020
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JVL, it is not "interpretation" but implications and empirical warrant. Behind "interpretation" lies smuggled in relativism and/or subjectivism. KFkairosfocus
May 9, 2020
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ET: You don’t know that. I think I do. There's no evidence against it anyway. ID research should take its place. Research into what else there is besides chemical reactions in biology. Like what? You've got literally millions and millions of dollars you can reallocate so what research topics would you spend it on? Think of it this way: you've got thousands and thousands of scientists applying for research grants how do you decide who gets funded?JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL:
How can it be a better explanation then?
We don't know how Stonehenge was made and yet saying it is an artifact is a better explanation than saying nature did it. Look, you clearly don't know anything about science nor investigating.ET
May 9, 2020
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Why is that the BEST evidence for macro-evolution does NOT include a mechanism? I say it's because unguided evolution is an untestable piece of BS. The only things unguided evolution has for support are genetic diseases and deformities. No one knows how to test the claim that unguided processes produced the genetic code. No one knows how to test the claim that unguided processes produced any bacterial flagellum. All promissory notes. That goes for any multi-protein structure. That also goes for proteins. Lenski's LTEE is showing us how impotent evolutionary processes are with respect to universal common descent.ET
May 9, 2020
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ET: ID doesn’t have to say anything about how life arose. How can it be a better explanation then? I've never quite got that bit. Because ID doesn't specify any details how can it explain why life is the way it is and not some other way? 'Cause there surely would have been lots and lots and lots of possible designs . . . why did we get what we've got?JVL
May 9, 2020
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JVL:
Perhaps, in general, but I don’t think the particular implementations are well founded.
You don't know much of anything.
It is true that the techniques used in ID design inference testing are NOT accepted as valid by a vast majority of working scientists.
You don't know that.
Not ones you accept that is.
Piss off. You're just upset because your side has nothing.
I think unguided evolutionary theory does not depend on promissory notes.
There isn't any such theory. You lose. And clearly unguided evolution depends on promissory notes. It doesn't have anything else.
So, you would stop looking? It’s all just a fool’s errand? What kind of research would you be in favour of then? Considering the large amounts of money being spent researching unguided evolution how would you reallocate all those funds?
Yes, looking into impossible things is a fool's errand. If people want to do it they should use their own money. ID research should take its place. Research into what else there is besides chemical reactions in biology.ET
May 9, 2020
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Ed George:
All that can be said at this time is that neither ID nor naturalism have been able to demonstrate how life arose.
YOURS is the mechanistic position, Ed. ID doesn't have to say anything about how life arose. Your position does. And you and yours have FAILED miserably. Ed's side has nothing but liars and bluffing losers. They don't have any science. They don't even have a methodology to test their claims. All they have are promissory notes and the ability to deny reality.ET
May 9, 2020
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ET: Yes, we do. You just don’t know how to assess the evidence. We disagree on that for sure. The Design inference is based on our knowledge of cause-and-effect relationships. Science 101 Perhaps, in general, but I don't think the particular implementations are well founded. 1- You don’t know that It is true that the techniques used in ID design inference testing are NOT accepted as valid by a vast majority of working scientists. 2- those who disagree with ID don’t have anything to explain what we observe. They don’t even have a testable methodology. Not ones you accept that is. All the anti-ID mob has are promissory notes that they may find an answer in a thousand years or more. I think unguided evolutionary theory does not depend on promissory notes. I think the evidence is sufficient to make the call already. That being said, if you found other strong physical evidence of a class of designers (to avoid the issue of knowing a particular designer) capable of such feats that was around at the time then I would have to consider things again. The problem is we will never find the answer they are seeking because it never happened. It is impossible for nature to produce coded information systems. Impossible. You have to be so desperate that it blinds you to reality to think that nature is capable of such a feat. So, you would stop looking? It's all just a fool's errand? What kind of research would you be in favour of then? Considering the large amounts of money being spent researching unguided evolution how would you reallocate all those funds?JVL
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