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Outsider Meddling — Skeptics Need Not Apply (or, Just Have Faith)

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Someone by the name of skeech is cluttering up UD with impervious sophistry and wasting a lot of our time.

His/her latest thesis is that “according to biologists…” there is a “credible possibility that small incremental changes could have developed massive increases in biological information in a short time — followed by stasis.”

So, skeech assures us that “biologists” are universally agreed upon this proposition?

How about this and this?

Darwinian evolutionary theory is a boiling, ever-changing, amorphous cloud that is impenetrable and completely immune to critical analytical scrutiny. It was designed that way, for obvious reasons.

It should be noted that the “scientific” consensus in the early 20th century was the steady-state universe theory (that is, the universe is eternal, and has no beginning and no end). Those subscribing to the consensus were wrong (including Albert Einstein), and they put up a big fight until the end, when the evidence became overwhelming.

Continental drift theory was also ridiculed.

Wegener was the first to use the phrase “continental drift” (1912, 1915)… During Wegener’s lifetime, his theory of continental drift was severely attacked by leading geologists, who viewed him as an outsider meddling in their field.

The criticism we always hear from Darwinists is: Outsiders are not permitted to question the dogma, because they don’t understand the subtleties and the “science.”

The essence of Darwinian philosophy, presented as “science,” takes about 15 minutes to learn and understand: Random variation and natural selection explain everything — never mind the details, we’ll make up stories later to explain away the anomalies, contradictions, and improbabilities.

In the meantime, just have faith, and don’t ask any annoying questions.

This is not science, it’s religious indoctrination.

Comments
Why is this so hard to understand?
...not hard at all. But after it’s been done, then what? Do you think that Behe has been answered? He hasn't, and neither has Denton, and neither has Kenyon, and neither has Gene, and neither has Berlinski, and neither has Myers…but that's hardly even the start of it. You're a materialist right? Well heck, let’s start right there. The material elements of the universe (as we know it) conform to the observations of Einstein’s relativity, Newtonian Mechanics, Clerk Maxwell’s Electromagnetic Field, and Quantum mechanics. Which combination of these would be the First Cause of formerly inanimate chemicals self-organizing into three-dimensional energy-metabolizing structures driven by highly-coordinated information processing systems that spontaneously initiate the recording of their existence into a conventional code of digital information that is not contingent on material need? Ask Dean K for help if you wish. I am certain he’s researched it more than most others. Probably more than the “fifteen minutes” you accuse him of. Or, is he like the rest of them called out for stupidity by atheists clinging to their worldview - is he just “lying for Jesus?”Upright BiPed
March 30, 2009
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For every revolutionary idea, there are scads of duds. The scientific establishment should resist paradigm shifts. This passage from the Wikipedia article on The Structure of Scientific Revolutions agrees with my recollection of Kuhn:
Occasionally this generates a rival to the established framework of thought. The new candidate paradigm will appear to be accompanied by numerous anomalies, partly because it is still so new and incomplete. The majority of the scientific community will oppose any conceptual change, and, Kuhn emphasizes, so they should. In order to fulfill its potential, a scientific community needs to contain both individuals who are bold and individuals who are conservative. There are many examples in the history of science in which confidence in the established frame of thought was eventually vindicated. Whether the anomalies of a candidate for a new paradigm will be resolvable is almost impossible to predict. [emphasis added]
Many of you IDers are blessedly assured that the anomalies of ID, if you are not blessedly oblivious to them, will all vanish once your scientists get down to some serious research. And that is what brands you as unscientific. You should expect others to be highly skeptical. And you expect them to be skeptical of you if you, as upstarts with little more than an idea of where you want to go with your research, are not skeptical of ID. Mike Gene understands this very well. Knowing before the research has been done that "ID is true" is certainly not scientific belief. It is religious belief for some of you, and for others, it's an untested intuition.Sal Gal
March 30, 2009
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Of course that is the way most of the internet operates. That is precisely why it a useless venue for rational exchange. Imagine a scientific literature with anonymous authors or library stacks with books written by unknown writers. That is exactly what the internet has become. It is a nightmare, little more than therapy for unfulfilled malcontents to vent their spleens, secure that they will never be banished because no one even knows who they are.
People familiar with JAD will appreciate the irony in this. Back to the original post, if I may be so bold. Here is the most ludicrous statement of all, but perhaps not ludicrous in Gil's eyes given that he includes LeVake in his list of persecuted Christians.
The criticism we always hear from Darwinists is: Outsiders are not permitted to question the dogma, because they don’t understand the subtleties and the “science.”
What "outsiders" are not permitted to do is to falsify facts and data and then expected to be taken seriously when presenting those facts and data. What they are permitted to do is study the facts and data and try to disprove them using the means of science. Why is this so hard to understand? Probably because it takes more than 15 minutes. Oh, and John, my real name is Mike Haubrich and I live in Minnesota. I am outspoken as an atheist so that eventually hazel won't have to worry about hiding.tuibguy
March 30, 2009
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Jehu @ 69
JustFineThanks, Seversky, skeech, CannuckianYankee, JTaylor, et al. You have all completely failed to address the salient point of Gil’s post, that wide spread acceptance of a scientific theory does not make a theory true. In the past false theories have been widely accepted to point that anyone who questioned the theories were persecuted and denounced. Gil’s point is not that widely held scientific views never change. This should be so obvious I am amazed that none of you succeeded in grasping it.
It would be a mistake to conclude that, just because a comment does not appear here, there was no attempt to write and submit one. As for Gil's point, I would argue that there is nothing that should be held to be true simply because a lot of people believe it. This applies to scientific theories, political doctrines and religious beliefs. Ideally, our belief in anything should be in proportion to the weight of evidence by which it is supported. I stressed "ideally" because the reality is that few of us have the time or the expertise to evaluate the evidence supporting esoteric theories like relativity or quantum theory. We are forced to rely on the opinions of those who, as far as we are able to tell, are experts. There are, however, several caveats where relying on the opinions of others are concerned. The first is that experts are only human and subject to all-too-human failings so it would be a mistake to rely solely on the views of one of them. The wisest course is to look at a range of views and try to gauge the strength of the competing cases. The second is that, where possible, they should be drawn from fields which emphasize the primacy of evidence-based methodology. This does not guarantee truth but it does allow mistakes to be corrected sooner or later because there is an assumption of the corrigibility rather than the inerrancy of the primary texts. The third is to be wary of any expert who has an axe to grind, whether it be a conviction that the theory of evolution leads inevitably to atheism or the certainty that he or she has been entrusted by God with a mission to destroy it. That evolutionary biology or any other field of science is in a turbulent state is encouraging rather than a sign of failure. Far worse would be the lassitude of a field where only that research which conformed to a political or religious doctrine was allowed; for that is the route to Lysenkoism where the tree of knowledge is trimmed and pruned until it is shriveled to an ornamental bonsai rather than being allowed to flourish and to grow into a great and hearty oak.Seversky
March 30, 2009
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JAD, I gather that you were once banned for unjust reasons. You are back and I hope you stay. Please don't join that long list of cynical bloggers who purposely push the envelope just hard enough to get banned so they can revel in and brag about their martyr status.StephenB
March 30, 2009
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I'd like to hear from every IDer who believes that scientists eventually will accept that the design of life requires intelligence, but then may find a better explanation.Sal Gal
March 30, 2009
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Gil [24],
Give me an example of a publicly funded, state university college professor who has been denied tenure, ridiculed, tormented, vilified, or ostracized for advocating atheism or that Darwinism explains all of life’s complexity and information content.
Well, since my case was mentioned in [33], I should mention that I'm at a private university and I'm not an atheist. What happened wasn't much -- just some harsh words and a threat to visit me -- though I was actually frightened for a time. I'm a coward that way. Also, come to think of it, I don't know of anybody who thinks that "Darwinism explains all of life's complexity and information content." Finally, if ridicule is a criterion, doesn't this very site routinely ridicule "Darwinists"? For example, didn't some "Darwinist" get compared to Herman Munster because of his looks?David Kellogg
March 30, 2009
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Oops, I forgot the "your" in this sentence:
And ya know, if you doubt this matter of fact historical and universal truth, you left your brains somewhere. :eyesroll:
I also meant to make the little face that roles his eyes, but I must have written the code wrong xDDomoman
March 30, 2009
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UpRight BiPed,
Formerly inanimate chemicals self-organizing into three-dimentional metabolizing structures driving by highly-coordinated information processing systems that spontaneously initiate the recording of their existence into a conventional code of digital information MUST HAVE happened just like they say it did - no need to ask any questions.
And ya know, if you doubt this matter of fact historical and universal truth, you left brains somewhere. :eyesroll: Jehu, Considering we can't use science to prove science, does that make science unscientific? Should Darwinists throw out science as unscientific? lolDomoman
March 30, 2009
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UprightBiPed, There only two options: 1) Life created itself by dumb luck, or 2) Life was created by an intelligence (which could include God). Since option 2 is not scientific, option 1 must be the correct answer. At the end of the day, this is the one and only argument in support of Darwinism and if you debate with a Darwinist long enough that is what it will devolve to.Jehu
March 30, 2009
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I am so impressed with FreeLunch. He/she is so impressive with his/her quick wit and depth of subject knowledge. He/she really tortured Gil with his biting commentary. He probably hurt Gil's feelings. Formerly inanimate chemicals self-organizing into three-dimentional metabolizing structures driving by highly-coordinated information processing systems that spontaneously initiate the recording of their existence into a conventional code of digital information MUST HAVE happened just like they say it did - no need to ask any questions. GollyUpright BiPed
March 30, 2009
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Jehu, Nobody commenting in this thread has claimed that consensus makes a theory true. Since we all agree with Gil on that particular point, and since it's obvious anyway, why are you berating us for failing to restate it?skeech plus
March 30, 2009
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Thanks Jehu.GilDodgen
March 30, 2009
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freelunch, You don't have to buy a book. Here's a short list of candidates: Rodney Levake, Roger Dehart, Dean Kenyon, Caroline Crocker, Jerry Bergman, Guillermo Gonzalez, Byron Johnson, Raymond Damadian, Nancy Bryson. Surely you don't expect me to type up the case histories of these people here. The information is freely available and easily accessible.GilDodgen
March 30, 2009
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JustFineThanks, Seversky, skeech, CannuckianYankee, JTaylor, et al. You have all completely failed to address the salient point of Gil's post, that wide spread acceptance of a scientific theory does not make a theory true. In the past false theories have been widely accepted to point that anyone who questioned the theories were persecuted and denounced. Gil's point is not that widely held scientific views never change. This should be so obvious I am amazed that none of you succeeded in grasping it.Jehu
March 30, 2009
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JohnADavison, I am the moderator, a position that you don't have to respect, but one that you do have to listen to if you want to post comments here. And yes, you're unknown to me, as are most others here. It's not a criterion that I know you in order to make moderation decisions. Either you're respectful, or you're not. If you're not, you won't comment here. If you are, by all means, say whatever you want to advance the discussion. But let's leave all of this personal criteria you have out of it. Folks can write what they want, as long as their respectful, and remain anonymous. If this bothers you, I'm sorry, but you're not going to win this one.Clive Hayden
March 30, 2009
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Gil, I'm a bit disappointed that you chose to offer an opportunity for me to buy a book rather than actually identify cases and show how they qualify under the terms that you claimed. When a web site promoting a book tells me that it goes beyond Expelled, I'm not sure what to make of it, given Expelled's track record.freelunch
March 30, 2009
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Clive Hayden If I am unknown to you you have no business being an author at Uncommon Descent. If I am to be banished, I prefer that it be at the hands of Gil Dodgen for whom I have respect. He is the "author" of this thread not you or can any "author" banish anyone at any thread at Uncommon Descent? If that is the case, things are even worse than I imagined here. In any event I am through with this thread. I will now seek another one as I continue my quest for a place where I can present my science to a receptive audience without being harangued and denigrated by unknown, unprincipled, hostile enemies.JohnADavison
March 30, 2009
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JohnADavison, "I have called no one any names because I don’t have any idea who they are. Phantoms have chosen to be insulted. I have only commented on the names they chose for themselves. If you are going to warn me, at least explain why in rational terms." No one has chosen to be insulted. It's you who calls names, directed at real people, regardless of their handle. You don't have to know particulars about someone in order to direct a statement to them. I have not the faintest idea of who you are, save your name. No different than anyone else that you know by their name, regardless if it is real or a self-imposed name. I'm not going to banish you unless you remain disrespectful. That's my only criterion, don't be disrespectful, even to a person who uses a handle. Unknown sources, of which you are one to me, are welcome to post on this blog. Are we clear?Clive Hayden
March 30, 2009
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bfast (#48): Thank you for mentioning those interesting news. Obviously, I have never believed in all those goofy attempts of the official academy to cover the embarassing truth of the Ediacara and Cambrian explosions with all kinds of unlikely theories. That is only evidence of how uncomfortable they are with those realities. And if, in the opinion of JayM, I am "misrepresenting the mainstream view", I am very happy and proud of that. And yes, this (like many other things) is MAJOR evidenciary support for ID!gpuccio
March 30, 2009
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#46 by JTaylor, whoever that is. Of course that is the way most of the internet operates. That is precisely why it a useless venue for rational exchange. Imagine a scientific literature with anonymous authors or library stacks with books written by unknown writers. That is exactly what the internet has become. It is a nightmare, little more than therapy for unfulfilled malcontents to vent their spleens, secure that they will never be banished because no one even knows who they are. Clive Hayden I have called no one any names because I don't have any idea who they are. Phantoms have chosen to be insulted. I have only commented on the names they chose for themselves. If you are going to warn me, at least explain why in rational terms. Don't bother banishing me either as I am content to abandon this weblog confident that it will never produce anything of significance as long as it allows unknown sources to present whatever they want knowing they are immune from any ethical standard whatsoever.JohnADavison
March 30, 2009
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freelunch:
Gil: Could you provide specific examples of the many publicly funded, state university college professor[s] who has been denied tenure, ridiculed, tormented, vilified, or ostracized because they aren’t members of the state-sponsored Church of Darwin?
Here’s an entire book full of examples, with all the gory details: Slaughter of the Dissidents: The Shocking Truth About Killing The Careers Of Darwin DoubtersGilDodgen
March 30, 2009
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bFast @60
ID is comfortable with the cambrian explosion being exactly what it is — an explosion of biological form.
"Comfortable"? How so?
NDE is very uncomfortable with the cambrian explosion, and has been ever since Darwin wrote that he saw the cambrian as one of the big challenges to his theory, and that he expected an abundance of precambrian forms.
Biologists are not "uncomfortable" with the Cambrian explosion. Nothing known about it falsifies any tenet of modern evolutionary theory. Personally, I think it's a very interesting area to study because it might support some of Dr. Behe's ideas, but we shouldn't misrepresent the scientific orthodoxy.
Traces in the rock record have implied that there may be multi-cellular activity in the significantly precambrian (150 million years before the cambrian). This implied that the issue was lack of preserved rock record rather than a lack of original forms. Now that these traces seem to be the product of a unicellular organism, a primary neo-Darwinian prediction has failed yet again.
The strongest argument that can be made from the observations is that some of the evidence for multicellular life in the pre-Cambrian may be, in fact, due to single cellular organisms.
C’mon you guys, do we just want to hash through the old arguments again, or do we want fresh hard data for our theory?
We do, until ID proponents stop misrepresenting the mainstream view and stop making overbroad claims. You originally said
This is MAJOR evidenciary support for ID!
It is no such thing. This was not predicted by any ID researcher and it neither supports nor falsifies any ID hypothesis. If we want a seat at the table, we need positive evidence for ID, not evidence against modern evolutionary theory. JJJayM
March 30, 2009
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JayM:
This is MAJOR evidenciary support for ID!
How, exactly?
Let me see, ID is comfortable with the cambrian explosion being exactly what it is -- an explosion of biological form. NDE is very uncomfortable with the cambrian explosion, and has been ever since Darwin wrote that he saw the cambrian as one of the big challenges to his theory, and that he expected an abundance of precambrian forms. Traces in the rock record have implied that there may be multi-cellular activity in the significantly precambrian (150 million years before the cambrian). This implied that the issue was lack of preserved rock record rather than a lack of original forms. Now that these traces seem to be the product of a unicellular organism, a primary neo-Darwinian prediction has failed yet again. That's how. C'mon you guys, do we just want to hash through the old arguments again, or do we want fresh hard data for our theory?bFast
March 30, 2009
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Gil: Could you provide specific examples of the many publicly funded, state university college professor[s] who has been denied tenure, ridiculed, tormented, vilified, or ostracized because they aren't members of the state-sponsored Church of Darwin? The implication of your comments is that a number of biologists have been improperly treated. Could you show us a few of these examples and tell us exactly how it was for the cause you claim, please.freelunch
March 30, 2009
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----Hazel: "I strongly disagree. I see no signs whatsoever that Christians in the schools I have been in have to be “careful” about being known as Christians. In my current school, many wear crosses, go to the same churches as their colleagues, etc." Notice how I framed the issue: "In any case, the main isssue is less about teachers’ personal beliefs and more about what they are and are not allowed to teach." Why would you want to breeze through that precisely defined context and hearken back to the very point that I deemed as irrelevant, namely the teacher's belief system and his/her personal expressions of that belief system independent of the curriculum. The point was, I had hoped would be clear, is this: In public schools, you must be careful about how what you teach not about how you dress. The fact is that Darwinists/Deweyites rule the academy and design their agenda in accordance with secularist values. There is no such thing as a value free agenda, and the secularist agenda is consistent, as it turns out, with your personal values, which forbids any semblance of moral training. Whatever one thinks of the purpose of education, it surely is more than producing dutiful little worker bees who know nothing of the difference between virtue and vice, and who, under the circumstances, are incapable of becoming good citizens or contributing to the common good.StephenB
March 30, 2009
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skeech plus (#26): "Cogent arguments from a convenience store clerk are still cogent. Drivel from a Nobel Prize winner is still drivel." For once, I agree with you. But don't you feel that your statement is not completely politically correct for convenience store clerks? :-) "I can’t imagine why Davison and Dodgen are so eager to ‘unmask’ me, but somehow I doubt that my identity would interest them so much if my comments weren’t hitting their mark." One thing is for certain: I am not at all interested in your identity.gpuccio
March 30, 2009
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Unfortunately, I didn't save the page but I have the impression that one of JAD's comments has been removed.sparc
March 30, 2009
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I would appreciate if moderators and commenters would use the
blockquote tag
It will make it much easier to identify quotations.sparc
March 30, 2009
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I've re-registered under 'skeech plus' to get around the disappearing comment problem. My latest comment just came out of moderation and can be seen here. When I see that 'skeech plus' is out of moderation in general, I will repost the comments that got eaten yesterday.skeech plus
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