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Programs, cells and letting God be God (A concluding reply to the Smithy)

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I would like to thank Dr. Sullivan for his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence which has helped to clear the air enormously. In his closing comments, Dr. Sullivan calls for calm in the debate over life’s origin, and urges that the origin of life should be examined dispassionately, in an atmosphere free from theological bias. He is of course quite right, and in this post, I intend to engage him on precisely those terms. What I propose to do is address some general issues raised by Dr. Sullivan in his latest post on ID.

Life – an agreed definition?

While our views on the formal conditions for something’s being alive are somewhat divergent, I think we can now agree on the finalistic conditions.

In his his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence, Dr. Sullivan made some highly pertinent criticisms of the finalistic definition of life that I originally proposed, viz. that a living thing is a thing with a good of its own. This was followed by a helpful clarification (see UPDATE 2) by Professor Feser of an alleged difference I had pointed out between his way of talking about immanent causality and Dr. Sullivan’s. After reading their comments, I hope that Dr. Sullivan, Professor Feser and I can all agree on the following finalistic definition of life, which is adapted from a remark made in an earlier post by Professor Feser:

A living thing is a natural entity characterized by causal processes occurring within it, which can only be understood as terminating within and benefiting the organism considered as a whole.

Now I’d like to discuss the formal conditions for being alive. Dr. Sullivan has no quarrel with the second and third conditions I proposed (a nested hierarchy and embedded functionality), but he queries the legitimacy of describing the cell in terms of a program. To him, this terminology might be all right if it were merely metaphorical, but the literal usage strikes him as problematic. Now, cells of course do not understand “meaning,” and I would not say that “what happens in the generation of an organism is the application of meaning, according to grammatical rules, to transmit semantic content” (to quote Dr. Sullivan’s words), because this characterization overlooks the mechanics of generation. Instead, I would say that semantic content is indeed transmitted, but that this is accomplished by a chemical process, just as computers (whose programs embody semantic content) actually perform their calculations by means of processes at the electronic level. I would also claim that if scientists want to properly understand how cells work, then the only appropriate way to do so is to speak in terms of a program contained in their DNA. In other words, scientists need to employ the notion of semantic content to grasp how living things work. Now that is surely a very odd fact.

Is the “program” in the cell a real program?

The answer, I would maintain, is: yes, and it’s as literally a program as the nose on your face is literally a nose. There’s no metaphor here.

Both Dr. Sullivan and Professor Feser have queried my terminology here, so I’d like to cite a few scientifically respectable sources for my claim.

Let me begin with the late Daniel Koshland, Jr. (1920-2007), former editor of the journal Science, a long time professor of molecular and cell biology at UC Berkeley, and author of an oft-cited essay entitled, The Seven Pillars of Life, in Science 22 March 2002: Vol. 295. no. 5563, pp. 2215 – 2216, DOI: 10.1126/science.1068489. I shall quote a key extract:

What is the definition of life?… I think the fundamental pillars on which life as we know it is based can be defined. By “pillars” I mean the essential principles – thermodynamic and kinetic – by which a living system operates…

The first pillar of life is a Program. By program I mean an organized plan that describes both the ingredients themselves and the kinetics of the interactions among ingredients as the living system persists through time. For the living systems we observe on Earth, this program is implemented by the DNA that encodes the genes of Earth’s organisms and that is replicated from generation to generation, with small changes but always with the overall plan intact. The genes in turn encode for chemicals – the proteins, nucleic acids, etc. – that carry out the reactions in living systems. It is in the DNA that the program is summarized and maintained for life on Earth.

Here’s software developer Bill Gates (who is incidentally an atheist): “Human DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.”(The Road Ahead, Penguin: London, Revised, 1996, p. 228.)

When Bill Gates says something like that, I pay attention.

I’d also like to quote from an article by Alex Williams, a creationist who spent most of his professional career working as a botanist for the Australian government, and who is currently a Research Associate at the Western Australian Herbarium, specializing in the taxonomy of grasses. The article is entitled, “Astonishing complexity of DNA demolishes neo-Darwinism,” and was published in the Journal of Creation 21(3), 2007 (pages 111-117). It is available online at http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j21_3/j21_3_111-117.pdf . Here’s a short extract:

The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code — like the lines of letters and words on this page. And the 97% in humans that does not carry protein-coding genes is not, as many people thought, fossilized ‘junk’ left over from our evolutionary ancestors. DNA information is overlapping – multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards; and the ‘junk’ is far more functional than the protein code, so there is no fossilized history of evolution. No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation — information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to.

That’s just a short quote to whet the reader’s appetite. The author goes on to describe how DNA instantiates coding techniques that are more efficient than anything dreamed of by human computer programmers, with the same code having layers upon layers of meaning. His discussion of meta-information is also well worth reading. More recently, Alex Williams has published an update on his research at http://creation.com/astonishing-dna-complexity-update .

It was Williams’ article that alerted me to what ID was all about, a few years ago. I could finally understand the scientific evidence that living things had been designed by an Intelligent Creator. Living things contained programs that were cleverer than anything we could design. To not infer a Designer for these programs would be an act of intellectual blindness.

Finally, I’d like to cite Dr. Don Johnson, who has a Ph.D. in chemistry and a Ph.D in computer and information sciences, gave a presentation entitled Bioinformatics: The Information in Life for the University of North Carolina Wilmington chapter of the Association for Computer Machinery, on April 8, 2010. Dr. Johnson’s presentation is now on-line at http://vimeo.com/11314902 . Both the talk and accompanying handout notes can be accessed from Dr. Johnson’s Web page at http://scienceintegrity.net/ . Dr. Johnson spent 20 years teaching in universities in Wisconsin, Minnesota, California, and Europe. Here’s an excerpt from the presentation blurb:

Each cell of an organism has millions of interacting computers reading and processing digital information using algorithmic digital programs and digital codes to communicate and translate information.

I’d like to quote a brief excerpt from Dr. Johnson’s presentation:

“Somehow we have a genetic operating system that is ubiquitous. All known life-forms have the same genetic code. They all have the same protein manufacturing facilities in the ribosomes. They all use the same types of techniques. So something is pre-existing, and the particular genome is the set of programs in the DNA for any particular organism. So the genome is not the DNA, and the DNA is not the program. The DNA is simply a storage device. The genome is the program that’s stored in the storage device, and that depends on the particular organism we’re talking about.”

On a slide entitled “Information Systems In Life,” Dr. Johnson points out that:

  • the genetic system is a pre-existing operating system;
  • the specific genetic program (genome) is an application;
  • the native language has codon-based encryption system;
  • the codes are read by enzyme computers with their own operating system;
  • each enzyme’s output is to another operating system in a ribosome;
  • codes are decrypted and output to tRNA computers;
  • each codon-specified amino acid is transported to a protein construction site; and
  • in each cell, there are multiple operating systems, multiple programming languages, encoding/decoding hardware and software, specialized communications systems, error detection/correction systems, specialized input/output for organelle control and feedback, and a variety of specialized “devices” to accomplish the tasks of life.

To sum up: the use of the word “program” to describe the workings of the cell is scientifically respectable. I would like to add that although I used the term “master program” in a previous post, it matters little for my purposes how many programs are running in the cell; what matters is that they are well co-ordinated. In the absence of this co-ordination, they would be unable to accomplish their respective tasks smoothly and harmoniously, as they would be liable to interfere with one another.

I believe that the question of whether the program contained in the DNA of cells is a real program needs to be turned on its head. The program in DNA is a paradigm of what a good program should be like. The question we should be asking ourselves is: do our poorly written human programs, which are but a pale imitation of the Real Thing, deserve to be called programs in the true sense of the word? In other words, the shoe is on the other foot. If the program in our DNA is not a program, then nothing is.

Future directions for science

If living cells embody programs which are far superior to anything written by our own scientists, then the future direction of science is clear: we have to reverse-engineer the cell. This is part of a grander project, which Dr. Steve Fuller has written about: the endeavor to reverse-engineer the Divine plan. Let me add that I do not believe that this project is tied to a mechanistic conception of life; rather I see it as a simple consequence of the fact that the Universe was designed to be understood. In so doing, we are “thinking God’s thoughts after Him,” as Newton put it.

As I see it, the atheistic denial of a Designer of nature is therefore a “science-stopper.” When scientists unthinkingly accept the common prejudice that Nature is blind, they stop looking for reasons why nature might do things in a particular way that may appear scientifically puzzling. Instead of digging deeper, they conclude that the organism they are looking at is a “kludge” or that its DNA contains “junk.”

The intellectual impetus behind ID is the conviction that the design we see in nature is intelligible to rational human beings who are prepared to look at nature with an open mind.

What does my “program argument” prove, anyway?

Both Professor Feser and Dr. Sullivan raise the legitimate question of whether my argument from “There is a program in our DNA” to “DNA was designed by an Intelligent Being” begs the question, in terms of its teleological assumptions. Let me say at the outset that I would not use this argument on a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic who denied the existence of teleology in living things. When arguing with such a skeptic, I would cite the ID argument made in Dr. Stephen Meyer’s Signature in the Cell. It is a simple fact that the DNA in the cell exhibits two properties: Shannon complexity and functional specificity. Thus we can describe it as containing specified information. The best explanation for the vast amount of specified information found in even the simplest living things is an intelligent designer. In the absence of such a designer, the likelihood of laws of nature and/or chance events generating the amount of specified information found in the cell is astronomically low. Dr. Meyer’s argument is solid and scientifically respectable, and can be used against any skeptic. It appeals to probabilities, not because it contains mechanistic assumptions, but because it seeks to engage skeptics on their own turf.

My argument that living things instantiate programs, and that neither the laws of nature nor chance are reliably capable of creating programs, leaving intelligence as the only reliable explanation of the programs we find in living things, is an argument that would appeal to anyone with an open mind. The argument does appeal to an immanently teleological feature of organisms: life instantiates programs. In that sense, it is indeed Aristotelian. But the argument does not require an explicit avowal of Aristotelian teleology. It simply invokes a commonly used way of talking about DNA, which many scientists feel increasingly comfortable with, and it proceeds from that starting point. Thus it appeals to a way of talking which is implicitly teleological, and then appeals to the elegance and perfection in the cell’s programs as evidence of a Higher Intelligence. As scientists make further discoveries of the beauty of the cell’s code in the years to come, I believe that this argument for a Designer of the cell will gain strength.

Beyond “either-or”: let God be God

In his post, Dr. Sullivan makes a plea for thinking that goes beyond “the dichotomy that God is either the blind watchmaker that winds up the universe at the big bang and then lets it unspool according to blind laws, or that he has to enter into the world and tinker around with particles in order to make things come out as he likes.”

I agree. The Judeo-Christian view is that God continually upholds nature, sustaining it in being by his Word. No living thing could survive even for an instant without God. God is infinitely more than a watchmaker.

But we know that life had an origin at some point. How did it originate? In my original response to the Smithy) , I was somewhat harsh in my criticism of the view that the laws of nature alone, combined with just about any old set of initial conditions, could have generated the first living thing. The language I used was rather judgmental, and I’d like to apologize for any offence caused. I have reflected on Dr. Sullivan’s arguments in his recent post, Nature, Artifacts, Meaning and Providence and have modified my own views somewhat. What I’d now like to do is make a short list of all possible origin-of-life scenarios, and briefly discuss the theological implications of each.

As I see it, the first living thing could have been generated by one of three processes:
(a) the laws of nature alone, with no need for a specific set of initial conditions, because any set of conditions would generate a living thing somewhere in the universe;
(b) the laws of nature, combined with a very specific set of initial conditions;
(c) an act of intelligent intervention, which may or may not have been followed by other acts of intervention.

Can anyone think of any others?

I have discussed something like scenario (a) previously from an ID perspective, in a short post of mine:

Because ID is agnostic regarding the Designer’s modus operandi, it allows for the possibility that scientists might one day discover bio-friendly laws, which, when combined, constitute a “magic pathway” leading from simple substances to complex life. But these laws would themselves have to be highly specific (e.g. relating to particular molecules), extremely numerous (perhaps numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands), and in some way sequential (so that together, they would make up a series of stepping stones leading to life and complex animals). In short, they would be quite unlike any laws discovered to date, as the laws we know are general, relatively few in number, non-sequential and information-poor.

On this view, the laws of the universe are designed for life, but not for any particular life-form such as ourselves. Our own individual existence could still be planned, however, by God choosing a particular set of initial conditions at the moment of the Big Bang, which He knew would eventually give rise to us.

What ID tells us here is that if you want laws that will generate life under any set of initial conditions, they would have to be very, very specific. Life has a high degree of specified complexity. A simple set of laws won’t do the trick.

Scenario (b) has been discussed by Professor Michael Behe in The Edge of Evolution (The Free Press: New York, 2007, pp. 231-232). In essence, Professor Michael Behe’s proposal is that God set up the universe at the beginning of time with an extremely finely tuned set of initial conditions, so that all He had to do was press “Play,” as it were, and the universe then unfolded naturally, resulting in the first living organism. On this view, God designed the initial conditions, with a view to producing the first living thing.

The design implications of scenario (c) are too obvious to require spelling out.

Summing up, it seems to me that all three scenarios are ID-compatible. Scenario (a) would appear quite congenial to theistic evolutionists, and perhaps (b) as well. Scenarios (a) and (b) require no act of supernatural intervention within the cosmos to create life, but of course they require intelligence to design a cosmos that can generate life.

What does ID have to say about these scenarios? ID should remain “above the fray,” as it is concerned with science rather than theology. What the scientific discipline of Intelligent Design can tell us, however, is that the design of life, by whatever process, requires a great deal of specificity – whether in the laws of nature themselves, the initial conditions of the universe, or in an act of Divine intervention resulting in life.

I’d like to conclude by thanking Dr. Sullivan for a lively exchange. Dr. Sullivan’s concluding comments can be found here. I am grateful for the opportunity this exchange has afforded me to sharpen my own views on the origin of life.

Comments
About this atheism and a priori belief discussions, how would Kant address this? I ask because I was just looking at a video series on his thought. I am thinking he would be useful to either viewpoint.Just Thinking
May 3, 2010
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above @27, Here is an example of an "a priori" statement.
My original post was: “But unfortunately for them they often do not reason. Instead they hold materialism as a priori ”
It is a generalized assumption about atheists. Here is a "a posteriori" statement. "I, Toronto, an atheist, come to my conclusions through a process of reasoning and don't hold materialism as being true "a priori". The second statement is a posteriori to you since I have provided you with actual verifiable information about myself that you didn't have before I told you.
“Since I am an atheist, in your eyes and those of StephenB, I am already incapable of reason because I have reached a different conclusion”
In the above, there is an implicit declaration that the speaker, (me, Toronto), has used reasoning, since I claim, "..I have reached a different conclusion."Toronto
May 3, 2010
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@toronto I don't understand why you are unecessarily trying to complicate things nor do I understand why you keep conflating what I said with StephenB. What StephenB is saying is a lot more challenging (for you) and goes much deeper than my objection. He clarifies that in his first paragraph of post #25. You said: "Since I am an atheist, in your eyes and those of StephenB, I am already incapable of reason because I have reached a different conclusion" My original post was: "But unfortunately for them they often do not reason. Instead they hold materialism as a priori " My point being that materialism is unwarrantedly held as a priori, not a posteriori as you claim. In light of that disagreement I asked you to prove materialism. That's all. Can you prove materialism or not?above
May 3, 2010
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After reading your response, I have to say that I find nothing wrong with your reasoning or logic at all. It is your premises I take issue with.
Atheism is not really an intellectual position at all; it is an emotional and a moral position.
It's not any sort of position at all. While black/white, up/down, right/left can be considered polar opposites, atheism/theism cannot be thought of in that way. Atheism is an absence of theism. You are considering atheism as a different version of theism much like comparing Christianity to Judaism. As an atheist I can tell you firsthand, you are wrong about how an atheist thinks.Toronto
May 2, 2010
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---Toronto: “In taking this position you are telling our side that there is no point in our presenting evidence in support of our position since you have already determined the only proper conclusion that could be reached by a reasonable person, is your conclusion.” The problem is less about presenting evidence to materialist/atheists/Darwinists and more about persuading them to evaluate that evidence in the light of sound reasoning principles. It is incumbent upon reason’s advocates to [a] explain those principles and why they matter, [b] point out that materialists are not currently using them and [c] observe their reaction. If they reject those principles, and so far every atheist I have encountered does reject them [usually after having learned about them for the first time, which should tell you something], then there is no reason to heap layers and layers of new evidence on them because they will interpret all new evidence in the same way that they interpreted the old evidence. One purpose of utilizing reason’s first principles is to rule out the impossible so that reasonable conclusions may be arrived at. Thus, if I say that nothing can come into existence without a cause, I am ruling out the proposition that something can come from nothing. With that understanding, we can do science, which is, in essence, the search for causes. If the atheist refuses to accept that principle, then, as dialogue partners, we can no longer search for causes in a rational way or even engage in rational scientific discourse. Each time we identify the most likely cause, the materialist/atheist can simply claim that this was one of those instances where the effect just came into existence without a cause. Using that anti-reasoning process, he will conclude that universes can pop into existence without a creator, life can come from non-life, and mind can come from matter. Atheism is not really an intellectual position at all; it is an emotional and a moral position. From their anti-intellectual vantage point, atheists reject the law of causality because accepting it would take them to a first cause creator, and they find such an idea intolerable. In keeping with that point, they reject the evidence for a finely-tune, carefully designed, universe. "Who needs a fine tuner or a designer, they will ask?" That same universe that popped into existence from out of nowhere also just happend to fine-tune itself. Effects don't need causes and so the evidence can be interpreted in any old way at all. So, the atheist simply accepts materialism on faith and stays with it in spite of all evidence to the contrary.StephenB
May 2, 2010
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above @23,
You can use whatever evidence or reasonable argumentation you like.
I ask you to carefully read and re-read the following a few times to ensure we understand each other. 1)Since I am an atheist, in your eyes and those of StephenB, I am already incapable of reason because I have reached a different conclusion on the existence of God than you have. 2)Since you consider my reasoning ability deficient, why would you consider any argument I provide? 3)If you engage any person in a debate and tell them they are not reasonable based on the conclusions they have reached, you have implicitly given them the permission to do exactly that to you. 4)This will effectively remove any arguments you provide, not matter how valid they are, from any consideration. 5)Do you believe it is valid for me to ignore any evidence you provide me supporting ID, based on the fact that you believe that there is a God?Toronto
May 2, 2010
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@toronto “If our side takes StephenB’s position we could discount any evidence you present on the grounds that you are obviously not reasoning properly.” But that is precisely what your side does. In fact, more so than any other political/religious affiliate group I have ever seen. Maybe you haven’t had the displeasure of conversing with militant atheists and nihilists. I unfortunately have. All I have ever heard was the fallacious presumption of atheism and/or an a priori commitment to materialism. How? What evidence would you consider reasonable coming from a source you consider unreasonable? You can use whatever evidence or reasonable argumentation you like. Can you prove materialism/atheism?above
May 2, 2010
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StephenB @19, I believe my second reply to "above"'s response to me, should show where your side is the one that retreats from reason. I posted it yesterday so please be patient. Thanks.Toronto
May 2, 2010
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vjtorley, This short video may interest you: How DNA Compares To Computer Code - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4298072bornagain77
May 2, 2010
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I am afraid that the whole concept of DNA == program is a metaphore that more obscures than helps. First of all - using the metaphore language - we should consider carefully where the computer is if DNA is a program? It must be obviously the cell. It is the cell that "interprets" DNA - after all do not forget that DNA is only an inanimate molecule. Nowadays even almost 7 year olds are able to wite "a program". But I am afraid that these "programmers" do not know how computers that run their "programs" really work. He would have to know also quantum physics to understand in depth how semiconductors in computers work. In this sense the "program" in a computer is the most trivial part. Assebled programs also means this: 00101001101101101111.... (looks like ACTCAGCGGCTTACGATTACG... doesn't it?) I am afraid in this case you don't know where the program and where the data start. Data in binary looks same. Unless you have uncompiled programm code - or even business requirenment on the program - studying sequenses of 0/1 is only a toil - like studying expression of genes in DNA in action. Of couse you can decipher some chunks of it. But you shouldn't be so optimistic. Considering all those pleitropy and epistasis you will never be able to obtain the result what genes in their concert do. Because they are like notes - the orchestra is the most responsible part in the concert - or even the conductor? http://cadra.wordpress.com/VMartin
May 1, 2010
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----Toronto: “According to him, [StephenB] an atheist is not capable of reason based on the the conclusion the atheist reaches, which says that there is no God.” According to StephenB, an atheist typically chooses not to reason because he is fearful about the conclusions he might arrive at if he were to follow reason’s first principles. Thus, they, like you, tend to deny the law of causality if it enables them to avoid drawing conclusions that are not congenial with their inclinations. You got it exactly backwards, but thank you for playing.StephenB
May 1, 2010
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vjtorley, actually I just collect little snippets here and there and have not seen anybody make a concise "catalog" of all the programming in DNA, a bit early I would guess in that functions are still being uncovered at a rapid pace; about the best I've seen anybody do as far as listing all the known functional elements of DNA so far has been this brief passage I picked up from Dr. John Sanford's book - Genetic Entropy: "There is abundant evidence that most DNA sequences are poly-functional, and therefore are poly-constrained. This fact has been extensively demonstrated by Trifonov (1989). For example, most human coding sequences encode for two different RNAs, read in opposite directions i.e. Both DNA strands are transcribed ( Yelin et al., 2003). Some sequences encode for different proteins depending on where translation is initiated and where the reading frame begins (i.e. read-through proteins). Some sequences encode for different proteins based upon alternate mRNA splicing. Some sequences serve simultaneously for protein-encoding and also serve as internal transcriptional promoters. Some sequences encode for both a protein coding, and a protein-binding region. Alu elements and origins-of-replication can be found within functional promoters and within exons. Basically all DNA sequences are constrained by isochore requirements (regional GC content), “word” content (species-specific profiles of di-, tri-, and tetra-nucleotide frequencies), and nucleosome binding sites (i.e. All DNA must condense). Selective condensation is clearly implicated in gene regulation, and selective nucleosome binding is controlled by specific DNA sequence patterns - which must permeate the entire genome. Lastly, probably all sequences do what they do, even as they also affect general spacing and DNA-folding/architecture - which is clearly sequence dependent. To explain the incredible amount of information which must somehow be packed into the genome (given that extreme complexity of life), we really have to assume that there are even higher levels of organization and information encrypted within the genome. For example, there is another whole level of organization at the epigenetic level (Gibbs 2003). There also appears to be extensive sequence dependent three-dimensional organization within chromosomes and the whole nucleus (Manuelides, 1990; Gardiner, 1995; Flam, 1994). Trifonov (1989), has shown that probably all DNA sequences in the genome encrypt multiple “codes” (up to 12 codes). (Dr. John Sanford; Genetic Entropy 2005) Here was another level of "coding" found: Comprehensive Mapping of Long-Range Interactions Reveals Folding Principles of the Human Genome - Oct. - 2009 Excerpt: We identified an additional level of genome organization that is characterized by the spatial segregation of open and closed chromatin to form two genome-wide compartments. At the megabase scale, the chromatin conformation is consistent with a fractal globule, a knot-free, polymer conformation that enables maximally dense packing while preserving the ability to easily fold and unfold any genomic locus. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/326/5950/289 Here is a site that gives a clear example of what Dr. Sanford means by Poly-Functional equals Poly-Contrained: Poly-Functional Complexity equals Poly-Constrained Complexity http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYmaSrBPNEmGZGM4ejY3d3pfMjdoZmd2emZncQ Plus there are other levels of coding that interact with the DNA,,,bornagain77
May 1, 2010
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bornagain77 (#12) Thanks very much for the excellent links. There must be a good catalogue somewhere of ID-related articles, specifically related to the program contained in DNA. Is there any catalogue that you'd recommend?vjtorley
May 1, 2010
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above @15,
But unfortunately for them they often do not reason.
Your claim is that we, the opposition/Darwinists/materialists/evolutionists, do not reason. StephenB, in a previous post, has said the same. In taking this position you are telling our side that there is no point in our presenting evidence in support of our position since you have already determined the only proper conclusion that could be reached by a reasonable person, is your conclusion. You can change my worldview to yours with a reasoned argument because I do believe you use reason and logic in coming to your conclusions. There is no evidence that I could present however that could change yours since you don't believe I am reasonable in coming to my worldview. StephenB and others have presented this argument before, with StephenB being the clearest. If our side takes StephenB's position we could discount any evidence you present on the grounds that you are obviously not reasoning properly. I don't want to see that happen. We should both present our evidence knowing the other side is evaluating the evidence and not the source.
However, since you have made such a claim, why don’t you go ahead and prove materialism/atheism for us.
How? What evidence would you consider reasonable coming from a source you consider unreasonable?Toronto
May 1, 2010
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@toronto I don't see StephenB posting in this topic, so I am not sure where you're going with it really. But if you are asserting that materialism and atheism do not rely on beliefs and a priori commitments you are sadly mistaken. However, since you have made such a claim, why don't you go ahead and prove materialism/atheism for us.above
May 1, 2010
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above @13,
But unfortunately for them they often do not reason. Instead they hold materialism as a priori and simultaneously deny that their ideology is simply an unwarranted belief. They want it both ways.
But that is precisely the position of StephenB. According to him, an atheist is not capable of reason based on the the conclusion the atheist reaches, which says that there is no God. What we have is the faith-based belief of a theist in direct opposition to the reasoned belief of an atheist. Following StephenB's logic, if the final conclusion you reach is the acceptable one, then the arguments you put forth were probably valid. This is not following the evidence at all. It is your side which relies on faith and belief, not your opposition.Toronto
May 1, 2010
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@Mung "But if one has done that, then they must have reasoned that always, or almost always, x must be the case given y. And isn’t that the very definition of teleology?" Good point. But unfortunately for them they often do not reason. Instead they hold materialism as a priori and simultaneously deny that their ideology is simply an unwarranted belief. They want it both ways.above
May 1, 2010
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vjtorley: here is a very interesting quote at the 30.5 minute mark of the Don Johnson video: "Because of Shannon channel capacity that previous (first) codon alphabet had to be at least as complex as the current codon alphabet (DNA code), otherwise transferring the information from the simpler alphabet into the current alphabet would have been mathematically impossible" Donald E. Johnson - Bioinformatics: The Information in Life further notes: the current codon alphabet is anything but simple: Deciphering Design in the Genetic Code Excerpt: When researchers calculated the error-minimization capacity of one million randomly generated genetic codes, they discovered that the error-minimization values formed a distribution where the naturally occurring genetic code's capacity occurred outside the distribution. Researchers estimate the existence of 10 possible genetic codes possessing the same type and degree of redundancy as the universal genetic code. All of these codes fall within the error-minimization distribution. This finding means that of the 10 possible genetic codes, few, if any, have an error-minimization capacity that approaches the code found universally in nature. http://www.reasons.org/biology/biochemical-design/fyi-id-dna-deciphering-design-genetic-code DNA - The Genetic Code - Optimal Error Minimization & Parallel Codes - Dr. Fazale Rana - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4491422 The coding system used for living beings is optimal from an engineering standpoint. Werner Gitt, - In The Beginning Was Information - p. 95 Collective evolution and the genetic code - 2006: Excerpt: The genetic code could well be optimized to a greater extent than anything else in biology and yet is generally regarded as the biological element least capable of evolving. http://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10696.full Here, we show that the universal genetic code can efficiently carry arbitrary parallel codes much better than the vast majority of other possible genetic codes.... the present findings support the view that protein-coding regions can carry abundant parallel codes. http://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/4/405.full The data compression of some stretches of human DNA is estimated to be up to 12 codes thick (Trifonov, 1989). (This is well beyond the complexity of any computer code ever written by man). John Sanford - Genetic Entropybornagain77
May 1, 2010
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Beautifully written position of ID. Dr. Torley. I must admit I had not paid a lot of attention to the cause of ID until this recent give-and-take with medieval theology developed. Your considered juxtaposition of these two theistic explanatory approaches has given me a deep respect for ID and yourself. You have also helped me see that my suspicions of the value in a dogmatic positing of medieval metaphysics has been well placed. I appreciate you and your thoughts. Thanks for your work here.Just Thinking
May 1, 2010
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Thanks to all, esp vjt and ba77, for thought provoking posts and many excellent links. As I have seen your names on other threads you know I am "hung up" on information at what I hope is a fundamental level. I note the use of "program" in vjt's post (I will go read all the others and links later and must read yours again, actually) but I still wonder if or why "we" cannot use the term information? Is it really too ambiguous as Seversky has (interminably) claimed? If so can we then speak of language instead? If DNA/RNA are common to every living thing (aren't they?) then that seems to this amateur like a clear dividing line, if not a workable definition, for what is living/not living. And since, by definition, information/language are linked it seems that the naturalist explanations for I/L can be dismissed because of issues I have prosed on about (interminably). I am being SUMMONED. Not back until tomorrow night. Sorry for the "drive by" nature of this post.tgpeeler
May 1, 2010
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vjtorley, there are a couple of very interesting papers in the Don Johnson video: First this very excellent paper: A comparative approach for the investigation of biological information processing: An examination of the structure and function of computer hard drives and DNA - David J D'Onofrio1, Gary An - Jan. 2010 Excerpt: The comparison of functional and structural characteristics of the DNA complex and the computer hard drive leads to a new descriptive paradigm that identifies the DNA as a dynamic storage system of biological information. This system is embodied in an autonomous operating system that inductively follows organizational structures, data hierarchy and executable operations that are well understood in the computer science industry.,,,, It is also important to note that attempting to reprogram a cell's operations by manipulating its components (mutations) is akin to attempting to reprogram a computer by manipulating the bits on the hard drive without fully understanding the context of the operating system. the idea of redirecting cellular behavior by manipulating molecular switches may be fundamentally flawed; that concept is predicated on a simplistic view of cellular computing and control. Rather, (it) may be more fruitful to attempt to manipulate cells by changing their external inputs: in general, the majority of daily functions of a computer are achieved not through reprogramming, but rather the varied inputs the computer receives through its user interface and connections to other machines. http://www.tbiomed.com/content/7/1/3 and this one as well: Survival of the fittest theory: Darwinism's limits - Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini - Feb 2010 Excerpt: Much of the vast neo-Darwinian literature is distressingly uncritical. The possibility that anything is seriously amiss with Darwin's account of evolution is hardly (ever) considered. ,,, Natural Selection has shown insidious imperialistic tendencies. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527466.100-survival-of-the-fittest-theory-darwinisms-limits.htmlbornagain77
May 1, 2010
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I would propose not to be so "scientific" regarding the definition of life. The question is if science is able to analyze "life" - describing it as "program" is quite unique imo. It reminds me of Dicken's Hard time where children were taught what a horse scientifically means - a quadruped etc... Maybe some Goethian approach is needed to complete the perspective. Percieving life and animals means also emotions, often strong emotions. These are often for us more important than any "programs". Describing a poem by counting letters in it and anlyzing it's words doesn't help to understand it better. It was also great Swiss zoologist Adolf Portmann's opinion and metaphore, that science is like looking behind the scene in the theater. Knowing what is there might be interesting, but it does't elucidate the play itself. Regarding Gates and his "opinions" about DNA - I wouldn't overestimate his opinions what DNA is like or not like. DNA may serve as a book, or encyklopaedia as well. Firstly you must to know how and where to read. I wouldn't call an encyklopaedia "program". http://cadra.wordpress.com/VMartin
May 1, 2010
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Hi bornagain77, Glad you liked this post. Thanks for the information about Bill Gates, by the way. I watched Don Johnson's video presentation last night, and found it very interesting.vjtorley
May 1, 2010
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I posted this on the wrong topic, my apologies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TeleologyPhaedros
April 30, 2010
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Not if one has already committed themself to the myopic perspective of materialism, I suppose.
But if one has done that, then they must have reasoned that always, or almost always, x must be the case given y. And isn't that the very definition of teleology?Mung
April 30, 2010
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vjtorley very well written article. I followed your argument here very clearly, which I had trouble doing with your last "philosophy" post. But that was my fault not yours since I don't have any higher education in philosophy to understand your points. Also Thanks for this very informative link: Bioinformatics: The Information in Life by Don Johnson http://vimeo.com/11314902 As well, I think Bill Gates is an agnostic not an atheist: Excerpt: Bill Gates: In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen. I don't know if there's a god or not, but I think religious principles are quite valid. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_Bill_Gates_an_atheistbornagain77
April 30, 2010
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What if there is no dividing line between life & non-life ? What if its a continuum ?Graham1
April 30, 2010
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@Phaedros Not if one has already committed themself to the myopic perspective of materialism, I suppose.above
April 30, 2010
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Doesn't teleology smack one in the face simply because of the fact that one can see?Phaedros
April 30, 2010
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