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Proteins Fold As Darwin Crumbles

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A Review Of The Case Against A Darwinian Origin Of Protein Folds By Douglas Axe, Bio-Complexity, Issue 1, pp. 1-12

Proteins adopt a higher order structure (eg: alpha helices and beta sheets) that define their functional domains.  Years ago Michael Denton and Craig Marshall reviewed this higher structural order in proteins and proposed that protein folding patterns could be classified into a finite number of discrete families whose construction might be constrained by a set of underlying natural laws (1).  In his latest critique Biologic Institute molecular biologist Douglas Axe has raised the ever-pertinent question of whether Darwinian evolution can adequately explain the origins of protein structure folds given the vast search space of possible protein sequence combinations that exist for moderately large proteins, say 300 amino acids in length.  To begin Axe introduces his readers to the sampling problem.  That is, given the postulated maximum number of distinct physical events that could have occurred since the universe began (10150) we cannot surmise that evolution has had enough time to find the 10390 possible amino-acid combinations of a 300 amino acid long protein.

The battle cry often heard in response to this apparently insurmountable barricade is that even though probabilistic resources would not allow a blind search to stumble upon any given protein sequence, the chances of finding a particular protein function might be considerably better.  Countering such a facile dismissal of reality, we find that proteins must meet very stringent sequence requirements if a given function is to be attained.  And size is important.  We find that enzymes, for example, are large in comparison to their substrates.  Protein structuralists have demonstrably asserted that size is crucial for assuring the stability of protein architecture.

Axe has raised the bar of the discussion by pointing out that very often enzyme catalytic functions depend on more that just their core active sites.  In fact enzymes almost invariably contain regions that prep, channel and orient their substrates, as well as a multiplicity of co-factors, in readiness for catalysis.  Carbamoyl Phosphate Synthetase (CPS) and the Proton Translocating Synthase (PTS) stand out as favorites amongst molecular biologists for showing how enzyme complexes are capable of simultaneously coordinating such processes.  Overall each of these complexes contains 1400-2000 amino acid residues distributed amongst several proteins all of which are required for activity.

Axe employs a relatively straightforward mathematical rationale for assessing the plausibility of finding novel protein functions through a Darwinian search.  Using bacteria as his model system (chosen because of their relatively large population sizes) he shows how a culture of 1010 bacteria passing through 104 generations per year over five billion years would produce a maximum of 5×1023 novel genotypes.  This number represents the ‘upper bound’ on the number of new protein sequences since many of the differences in genotype would not generate “distinctly new proteins”.  Extending this further, novel protein functions requiring a 300 amino acid sequence (20300 possible sequences) could theoretically be achieved in 10366 different ways (20300/5×1023). 

Ultimately we find that proteins do not tolerate this extraordinary level of “sequence indifference”.  High profile mutagenesis experiments of beta lactamases and bacterial ribonucleases have shown that functionality is decisively eradicated when a mere 10% of amino-acids are substituted in conservative regions of these proteins.  A more in-depth breakdown of data from a beta lactamase domain and the enzyme chorismate mutase  has further reinforced the pronouncement that very few protein sequences can actually perform a desired function; so few in fact that they are “far too rare to be found by random sampling”.

But Axe’s landslide evaluation does not end here.  He further considers the possibility that disparate protein functions might share similar amino-acid identities and that therefore the jump between functions in sequence space might be realistically achievable through random searches.  Sequence alignment studies between different protein domains do not support such an exit to the sampling problem.  While the identification of a single amino acid conformational switch has been heralded in the peer-review literature as a convincing example of how changes in folding can occur with minimal adjustments to sequence, what we find is that the resulting conformational variants are unstable at physiological temperatures.  Moreover such a change has only been achieved in vitro and most probably does not meet the rigorous demands for functionality that play out in a true biological context.  What we also find is that there are 21 other amino-acid substitutions that must be in place before the conformational switch is observed. 

Axe closes his compendious dismantling of protein evolution by exposing the shortcomings of modular assembly models that purport to explain the origin of new protein folds.  The highly cooperative nature of structural folds in any given protein means that stable structures tend to form all at once at the domain (tertiary structure) level rather that at the fold (secondary structure) level of the protein.  Context is everything.  Indeed experiments have held up the assertion that binding interfaces between different forms of secondary structure are sequence dependent (ie: non-generic).  Consequently a much anticipated “modular transportability of folds” between proteins is highly unlikely. 

Metaphors are everything in scientific argumentation.  And Axe’s story of a random search for gem stones dispersed across a vast multi-level desert serves him well for illustrating the improbabilities of a Darwinian search for novel folds.  Axe’s own experience has shown that reticence towards accepting his probabilistic argument stems not from some non-scientific point of departure in what he has to say but from deeply held prejudices against the end point that naturally follows.  Rather than a house of cards crumbling on slippery foundations, the case against the neo-Darwinian explanation is an edifice built on a firm substratum of scientific authenticity.  So much so that critics of those who, like Axe, have stood firm in promulgating their case, better take note. 

Read Axe’s paper at: http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1

Further Reading

  1. Michael Denton, Craig Marshall (2001), Laws of form revisited, Nature Volume 410, p. 417
Comments
William J. Murray (#41): I absolutely agree with your point. Indeed, I have made the same point many times here. That's why I have always believed that ID is a powerful falsification of both neo-darwinism and strong AI, the two false theories on which contempporary materialistic reductionist scientism is based. My point is very simple: conscious intelligent processes make the difference. Original CSI (or, more simply, original dFSCI) can be produced only with the help of conscious intelligent processes, even if the process certainly also implies algorithmic computations. Conscious intelligent agency can explain CSI, while non conscious processes cannot (falsification of neo darwinism). As conscious intelligent agency can easily produce CSI, while no non conscious algorithmic system can, conscious agency is essentially different from an algorithmic system (falsification of strong AI). It's as simple as that. Conscious intelligent representations make all the difference.gpuccio
July 3, 2010
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Concerning your original comment on changes and chimps. I'm wondering if you have done the math to determine if the changes between humans and apes exceeds resonable and expected rates of change. I don't recall Behe making that argument. If he makes that argument, I'd appreciate a feference, including page number.Petrushka
July 2, 2010
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Dis you answer my question about differences?Petrushka
July 2, 2010
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Petrushka can you site any studies where the proteins within an organism have accepted 3 or 4 amino acid substitutions/mutations that were not found to be detrimental to the original protein found in the parent species?bornagain77
July 2, 2010
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veils; The Limits of Quantum Computers - 2007 excerpt: Second I'll show that in the "black box" or "oracle" model that we know how to analyze, quantum computers could not solve NP-complete problems in polynomial time, even with the help of nonuniform "quantum advice states": http://www.springerlink.com/content/0662222330115207/ Protein folding is a NP complete problem! Combinatorial Algorithms for Protein Folding in Lattice Models: A Survey of Mathematical Results - 2009 4 Protein Folding: Computational Complexity 18 4.1 NP-completeness: from 10^300 to 2 Amino Acid Types . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 4.2 NP-completeness: Protein Folding in Ad-Hoc Models . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 4.3 NP-completeness: Protein Folding in the HP-Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sorin/pdfs/pfoldingsurvey.pdf Thus veils, with all "vagueness" removed, you have nothing to make your case with.bornagain77
July 2, 2010
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So since humans have 80% different proteins than chimps how in the world did this occur with a system so dead set against variance Petrushka?
What do mean by different? Different proteins, or variations on the same proteins?Petrushka
July 2, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#55) You wrote:
but that our ability to solve “conditionally intractable” (NP complete) problems mathematically, such as that found with protein folding will not be so greatly enhanced.
Even if this is were case (which I'm not suggesting), "not greatly enhanced" does not tell us what enhancement it would provide and if it would allow completion before the amount of time granted or available to "evolutionists", whatever that happens to be defined as. You seem to be jumping to conclusions based on vague assumptions.
Partly this is because we witness “searches” in DNA that are truly enviable, such as this following “search” problem:
I'm not following you here. That DNA can be repaired quickly doesn't necessitate that quantum algorithms cannot solve a specific NP complete search problem in the amount of time granted or available to "evolutionists?" This does not seem to follow.
Whereas there are no instances of completely novel functional proteins being “solved” with enviable speed in life somewhere that I can point to.
Born, I'm still confused. Doesn't this repair mechanism fit the description of an NP-complete problem? You seem to suggesting that quantum search algorithms do work, and even imply that DNA repair is an example of just such a quantum search algorithms in practice, yet you're claiming we could not use it to search NP-complete problem spaces, such as protein folding. Again, are quantum search algorithms "supernatural", and therefore unable to be utilized unless we're "the designer?"
veilsofmaya
July 2, 2010
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Ah, the famous Szostak’s paper! I would like to comment extensively about it, but probably I will not the time today. I will as soons as possible.
If you have found errors in the Szostak paper, why not send a letter to Nature? Or at least publish a rebuttal in Bio-Complexity. ID proponents have a number of high profile outlets suitable for challenging mainstream papers. A forum thread probably isn't the best choice. It will simply be buried in a few days.Petrushka
July 2, 2010
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veils you state: "Again, I’m not arguing for MWI in this thread. I’m arguing that the comments you’ve made reveal your ignorance of it." I understand that no matter what anybody says you will believe in MWI no matter what! As for protein folding, I hold that Quantum Computing will not greatly impact it, whereas you do. You have no example to show it being done but only belief that it will be done. Fine that is the nature of science, go out and prove that it can be done And then you will have the hard proof to overcome what I feel are very reasonable objections, but calling me ignorant while providing no concrete example of your conjecture, is not scoring any points with me.bornagain77
July 2, 2010
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@Bornagain77 (#53) *Sigh* You wrote:
veils: to repeat, this is not the thread to rehash your MWI metaphysics,
Again, I'm not arguing for MWI in this thread. I'm arguing that the comments you've made reveal your ignorance of it. it's another example of where you've reached conclusions on a subject that you do not appear to understand. As for the paper you cited, did you notice the article you referenced was originally published in 1993? Since Grovers did not published his search algorithm until 1996 it would have indeed been considered untraceable at the time. Furthermore, if protein folding really is NP-complete, it appears to be good fit for quantum computing. From your Wikipedia reference…
In computational complexity theory, the complexity class NP-complete (abbreviated NP-C or NPC), is a class of problems having two properties: - It is in the set of NP (nondeterministic polynomial time) problems: Any given solution to the problem can be verified quickly (in polynomial time). […] Although any given solution to such a problem can be verified quickly, there is no known efficient way to locate a solution in the first place; indeed, the most notable characteristic of NP-complete problems is that no fast solution to them is known.
Given the classification of NP-complete, it sounds like the hard part is the search, rather than the verification, as I eluded to earlier. If this is the case, we wouldn't need to use quantum computing to solve the second part of the problem. While this isn't clear from the article summary you linked to, it certainly isn't excluded. It also seems to fit the description found here The most well-known example of this is quantum database search, which can be solved by Grover's algorithm using quadratically fewer queries to the database than are required by classical algorithms. In this case the advantage is provable. Several other examples of provable quantum speedups for query problems have subsequently been discovered, such as for finding collisions in two-to-one functions and evaluating NAND trees. Consider a problem that has these four properties: - The only way to solve it is to guess answers repeatedly and check them, - There are n possible answers to check, - Every possible answer takes the same amount of time to check, and -There are no clues about which answers might be better: generating possibilities randomly is just as good as checking them in some special order. Also, from your quote:
That is, the time required to solve the problem using any currently known algorithm increases very quickly as the size of the problem grows.
This is exactly what I was referring to earlier, when I wrote… Specially, as a search space grows staggeringly large, the number of operations necessary to search it with classical computing algorithms also grows staggeringly large. But this is not the case with Grovers’ algorithm, as the number of operations increases at a mere fraction of the rate. This appears to be yet another example of claiming a link or research paper supports your conclusion, yet on close discovery, we find it does not. Our of curiosity, Is this usually the way you reach all of your conclusions?veilsofmaya
July 2, 2010
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veils my hunch is that our ability to search may be greatly enhanced by quantum computing but that our ability to solve “conditionally intractable” (NP complete) problems mathematically, such as that found with protein folding will not be so greatly enhanced. Partly this is because we witness "searches" in DNA that are truly enviable, such as this following "search" problem: Quantum Dots Spotlight DNA-Repair Proteins in Motion - March 2010 Excerpt: "How this system works is an important unanswered question in this field," he said. "It has to be able to identify very small mistakes in a 3-dimensional morass of gene strands. It's akin to spotting potholes on every street all over the country and getting them fixed before the next rush hour." Dr. Bennett Van Houten - of note: A bacterium has about 40 team members on its pothole crew. That allows its entire genome to be scanned for errors in 20 minutes, the typical doubling time.,, These smart machines can apparently also interact with other damage control teams if they cannot fix the problem on the spot. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100311123522.htm ,,, Whereas there are no instances of completely novel functional proteins being "solved" with enviable speed in life somewhere that I can point to. The somewhat sluggish response of the immune system to develop effective antibodies being a prime case in point. Thus I have no reason to presuppose that such a mechanism for calculating novel functional "folded" proteins, from completely new sequences, exists undiscovered somewhere in the "unexplored" quantum world.bornagain77
July 2, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#50) You wrote;
I like this tidbit you had veilsofmaya: (perhaps a strange reflection of the possibility that the machinery of DNA itself may actually function using quantum search algorithms [3]). It would not surprise me in the least if this were true since I hold the Designer invented/invents quantum mechanics as well.
But then you wrote:
But as for you imagining protein folding will be greatly enhanced by “real world” quantum computing:
It's unclear why a designer would use something that is a figment of our imagination and therefore could not be used. Are you suggesting that quantum computing *does* work for some hypothetical designer, but *we* cannot use it? If not, please explain the difference. In other words, you seem to be merely picking and choosing the bits and pieces you happen to "like" while ignoring the rest.veilsofmaya
July 2, 2010
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veils: to repeat, this is not the thread to rehash your MWI metaphysics, but as to your claim that the problem of protein folding "may" fall to the power of quantum computing. Protein folding is found to be a NP-complete problem: Complexity of protein folding Abstract It is believed that the native folded three-dimensional conformation of a protein is its lowest free energy state, or one of its lowest. It is shown here that both a two-and three-dimensional mathematical model describing the folding process as a free energy minimization problems is NP-hard. This means that the problem belongs to a large set of computational problems, assumed to be very hard (“conditionally intractable”). Some of the possible ramifications of this results are speculated upon. http://www.springerlink.com/content/n111140117672r08/ NP-complete Excerpt; Although any given solution to such a problem can be verified quickly, there is no known efficient way to locate a solution in the first place; indeed, the most notable characteristic of NP-complete problems is that no fast solution to them is known. That is, the time required to solve the problem using any currently known algorithm increases very quickly as the size of the problem grows. As a result, the time required to solve even moderately large versions of many of these problems easily reaches into the billions or trillions of years, using any amount of computing power available today. As a consequence, determining whether or not it is possible to solve these problems quickly is one of the principal unsolved problems in computer science today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NP-completebornagain77
July 2, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#50) Born, It appears you don't to understand what Nullalasus' wrote either. First he was arguing that MWI was swallowed by intelligent design. That is, MWI should be included as an intelligent design theory. See here. This has no bering on if it was a tenable theory or not. Second, he merely asserted it was "supernatural" without clearly explaining how he reached this conclusion or why all supernatural things are not non-sense as well. It seemed to be an argument from absurdity, with a mere assertion that it was absurd. See here and here.
And this is definitely not the thread for you to drag everyone through 100’s of comments on your MWI metaphysics.
Again, I'm not arguing for or against anything in this thread. I'm merely pointing out what appears to be serious flaws in the way you've reached your conclusion.
But as for you imagining protein folding will be greatly enhanced by “real world” quantum computing:
Born, you've done the exactly same thing, despite my having pointed it out to you *twice*. - Are you a subscriber to SprigerLink? If not, you only have access to a brief summary of the paper. - That quantum computers are not almost magical devices, able to “solve impossible problems in an instant”, is not the same thing as claiming a quantum computer could not solve protein folding problems in a few minutes, hours, days, years or even a few centuries. You've merely assumed this is the case. Again, I’m not arguing one way or another. Nor am I suggesting that posting and quoting links does not add to the discussion. I’m illustrating that it’s *not* a substitute for actually understanding the subject at hand.
veilsofmaya
July 2, 2010
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From your reference whoisyourcreator it states: "The dynamic motions of the water network are altered by the protein. Folded proteins were also known to show a significantly different influence on water molecules than unfolded proteins.,,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080805075610.htm what makes this amazing is that water only "turns on" this ability to "dance with the protein" once the protein is sequenced; prior to the amino acids being sequenced into an unfolded protein by the ribosome, water is definitely not in the mood to dance: Abiogenic Origin of Life: A Theory in Crisis - Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D. Excerpt: The synthesis of proteins and nucleic acids from small molecule precursors represents one of the most difficult challenges to the model of prebiological evolution. There are many different problems confronted by any proposal. Polymerization is a reaction in which water is a product. Thus it will only be favored in the absence of water. The presence of precursors in an ocean of water favors depolymerization of any molecules that might be formed. Careful experiments done in an aqueous solution with very high concentrations of amino acids demonstrate the impossibility of significant polymerization in this environment. A thermodynamic analysis of a mixture of protein and amino acids in an ocean containing a 1 molar solution of each amino acid (100,000,000 times higher concentration than we inferred to be present in the prebiological ocean) indicates the concentration of a protein containing just 100 peptide bonds (101 amino acids) at equilibrium would be 10^-338 molar. Just to make this number meaningful, our universe may have a volume somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^85 liters. At 10^-338 molar, we would need an ocean with a volume equal to 10^229 universes (100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000) just to find a single molecule of any protein with 100 peptide bonds. So we must look elsewhere for a mechanism to produce polymers. It will not happen in the ocean. http://origins.swau.edu/papers/life/chadwick/default.htmlbornagain77
July 2, 2010
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veilsofmaya, as I stated earlier I don't want to try to convince you that your metaphysical presupposition of MWI is wrong seeing as you are so attached to it, no matter how many flaws are pointed out to you, even as Nullalasus so eloquently pointed them out to you the other day. And this is definitely not the thread for you to drag everyone through 100's of comments on your MWI metaphysics. But as for you imagining protein folding will be greatly enhanced by "real world" quantum computing: The Limits of Quantum Computers - 2007 Excerpt: In the popular imagination, quantum computers would be almost magical devices, able to “solve impossible problems in an instant” by trying exponentially many solutions in parallel. In this talk, I’ll describe four results in quantum computing theory that directly challenge this view. http://www.springerlink.com/content/0662222330115207/bornagain77
July 2, 2010
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I wrote:
That the Grover’s algorithm runs on 10^500 universes in parallel is the explanation for why the number of operations does not grow as nearly as fast as corresponding classical algorithms. Even if this explanation was wrong, it’s does change the fact that the number of operations required would be staggering less.
In other words, we already know only a fraction of quantum instructions would be needed. This can be verified in the same way that we know a staggering number of classical instructions would be needed - using a handful of equations. Instead, the MWI is an explanation for *why* so few quantum instructions are necessary. Specially, the reason why a few quantum instructions can perform the same computational task as a staggering number of classical instructions is because each of these quantum instructions are actually executing in parallel on a staggering number of slightly different universes.veilsofmaya
July 2, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#39) *Please note* In the context of my comments on this thread, I am NOT arguing that your conclusion is true or false. However, I am arguing that the means by which you reached your conclusion appear to depend on assumptions that are not evident in the references you posted and are the result of a fundamental lack of understanding of the subjects they contain.veilsofmaya
July 2, 2010
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@bornagain77 (#39) Born, my point is that you seemed to have merely assumed that the problem would not benefit from quantum computing. From your Scientific American article quote…
[QC] would solve certain specific problems, such as factoring integers, dramatically faster than we know how to solve them with today’s computers, but analysis suggests that for most problems quantum computers would surpass conventional ones only slightly.
The qualifier "Most problems" does not include or exclude protein folding. Yet, you seem to have assumed exclusion. Why?
They are two completely different computational problems entirely. Sorry for not pointing that out earlier.
OK, assuming two sub-problems, how do you know quantum computing would not benefit both of them, rather than just one? You seem to be making the very same assumption, even after having it pointed out to you. Furthermore, are both parts of the problem untraceable? That is, the process of determining if a sequence will be functional could be the "easy" part and searching is the exponentially difficult part. If this is the case, it's irrelevant if QC can benefit the second sub-problem as classical computers may be able to solve it in a reasonable amount of time. If fact, both Shor's algorithm and Grover's algorithm uses classical computation to setup the quantum computaion engine. This is because the setup is trivial to calculate classically. Only the part that is exponentially difficult is computed using quantum means. Again, It seems you have not considered any of these things before reaching you conclusion. Instead it seems you've merely posted articles that you *think* support your position, but appear not to should we actually understand the problem at hand.
Veilsofmaya, you are so committed to the absurd metaphysical position of 10^500 parallel universes, as witnessed in your exchange with nullalalus the day before yesterday, I ain’t even going to try to talk you out of it save to say even if it is true, which I have severe reservations about, it does not negate Theism in the least as you would hoped it would do.
First, MWI of quantum mechanics does not suggest there are only 10^500 universes. It suggests that there are 10^500 universes that are similar enough to our own to be useful in the context of the computation. Apparently, you've reached a conclusion on MWI without actually understating it either. You might want to read up on it here. Also, if the MWI is so absurd, then perhaps you can explain this poll of the leading cosmologists and other quantum field theorists? Regardless of why Grover's algorithm operates at O(./N) rather than the classical cost of O(N), It's still staggeringly faster at large problem sets than classical search algorithms. In fact, at staggeringly large search spaces, the benefit would become staggering large. Specially, as a search space grows staggeringly large, the number of operations necessary to search it with classical computing algorithms also grows staggeringly large. But this is not the case with Grovers' algorithm, as the number of operations increases at a mere fraction of the rate. That the Grover's algorithm runs on 10^500 universes in parallel is the explanation for why the number of operations does not grow as nearly as fast as corresponding classical algorithms. Even if this explanation was wrong, it's does change the fact that the number of operations required would be staggering less. This is why I was confused when you wrote..
It would not surprise me in the least if this were true since I hold the Designer invented/invents quantum mechanics as well.
So, quantum computing actually can solve the problem, it's just that only the designer can use it and we can't? Is quantum computing supernatural?veilsofmaya
July 2, 2010
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Hey William J.—I’ve often wondered about this myself. In dreams, for instance, we create whole landscapes and new people out of thin air, and in fact whole dialogues in which we (the presumed creators of the dialogue) don’t actually know what’s coming next. Based on what we know about computers, what physical resources are necessary to make this possible?allanius
July 2, 2010
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whoisyourcreator: I liked your protein folding and water reference,,, I found this related article when looking at it: Water Is 'Designer Fluid' That Helps Proteins Change Shape - 2008 Excerpt: "When bound to proteins, water molecules participate in a carefully choreographed ballet that permits the proteins to fold into their functional, native states. This delicate dance is essential to life." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080806113314.htm It seems the Darwinian Gestapo forgot tell the authors of the article that the word Designer is to never, ever, be used when referring to biological processes of a cell. 8)bornagain77
July 2, 2010
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FYI: You're all missing the most interesting step in protein folding and that is that proteins can't fold without the miracle of water. Don't you just love that water evolved by chance, yet hydrogen bonds are close to impossible to break by man, yet break and reform every 1.2 picoseconds by 'mother nature'?: "From their previous work, the RUB-researchers already knew about the strong influence of proteins on the water in its vicinity. In the bulk, every 1.3 picoseconds hydrogen bonds are formed and broken between single water molecules – thus resulting in a fairly disorder liquid. However, even small protein concentrations bring the water molecules more in line with each other. The dynamic motions of the water network are altered by the protein. Folded proteins were also known to show a significantly different influence on water molecules than unfolded proteins. Now KITA-spectroscopy for the first time allowed insight into the time-period in-between these two states." "Protein Folding: One Picture Per Millisecond Illuminates The Process" Aug 6, 2008. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080805075610.htm "Nature has developed extremely efficient water-splitting enzymes – called hydrogenases – for use by plants during photosynthesis, however, these enzymes are highly unstable and easily deactivated when removed from their native environment. Human activities demand a stable metal catalyst that can operate under non-biological settings.": "Berkeley Scientists Discover Inexpensive Metal Catalyst for Generating Hydrogen from Water" April 30, 2010 http://newscenter.lbl.gov/news-releases/2010/04/30/inexpensive-catalyst-for-generating-hydrogen-from-water/whoisyourcreator
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William J. Murray, I share your view about testing the true weight bearing on an hypothesis that want to reduce human consciousness and intellect to chemistry contained in the physical individual. One avenue that seems rather easy to me would be to make an accurate calculation of the true memory requirement of our total human experience. Information theory has given us the means to do that, but it seems as if isolating memory carrying patterns in the brain eludes us still, due to the neuro-plasticity of the brain. But the obvious approach would be, not to try and find the memories in the brain. We simply need to calculate the memory requirement of humans as they exert their will in the physical world. This will include all human experiences, thoughts, dreams, actions on stimuli, recollection of memories and all conscious actions. We can also calculate a proposed algorithmic memory requirement, that maintains our personality and ability to apply our knowledge.mullerpr
July 2, 2010
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If you haven't read the Princeton "cruise control" article that BA posted at #12 (it's from Nov. 2008, so it may have been discussed here), you must read it. "Optimally desgined" feedback control systems is apparently a sweeping victory for Darwin! The article describing these mechanisms screams for intelligence, and further pushes randomness out of the picture. But in the end, they conclude:
The scientists do not know how the cellular machinery guiding this process may have originated...
Maybe it was another group of machinery, which, of course, was formed through good 'ol RM+NS (which continues to shrink into irrelevance, yet holds on victoriously through pure dogma)
...but they emphatically said it does not buttress the case for intelligent design, a controversial notion that posits the existence of a creator responsible for complexity in nature. Chakrabarti said that one of the aims of modern evolutionary theory is to identify principles of self-organization that can accelerate the generation of complex biological structures. "Such principles are fully consistent with the principles of natural selection. Biological change is always driven by random mutation and selection, but at certain pivotal junctures in evolutionary history...
a.k.a. anytime almost anything noteworthy is developed
...such random processes can create structures capable of steering subsequent evolution toward greater sophistication and complexity."
And these guys are Princeton scientists? The logic in that article will make your head pound. Absolutely unreal.uoflcard
July 2, 2010
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Alex73, You brought up a very interesting point. Forget about designing life; does the human brain have the physical informational resources, in this universe, to even produce a ten page report on the subject of the origin of life? I think that another avenue of intelligent design theory that should be pursued is what the human capacity to produce intelligent design means; I think the idea that humans are just computational collections of bumping molecules can be scientifically defeated in the same way that Darwinism can be defeated. IMO, a human being cannot be solely a physical object because, if they were, they would only have available to them the limit of physical computational resources. Therefore, they could not be expected to produce artifacts that lie outside of the computational resources of the natural laws and material characteristics of the universe.William J. Murray
July 2, 2010
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anaruiz stated: “This selection yielded four new ATP-binding proteins that appear to be unrelated to each other or to anything found in the current databases of biological proteins.” It amazes me how people will always take any trivial evidence for evolution and then extrapolate wildly from it that purely material processes can generate complexity that dwarfs our puny understanding, all the while neglecting to honestly look at what their evidence actually says:. Having a 1 in 10^12 protein sequence "stick to" the universal energy molecule of ATP is not surprising, in fact I am surprised more sequences do not "stick to" the universal ATP. But having a protein "stick to" ATP and having a protein utilize ATP for a specific constructive purpose in manufacturing, or work, are two different things entirely. Thus it is not surprising in the least when Szostak's "new" proteins led to "cascading failure of energetic balance" when as I referenced earlier: "We show that this man-made protein disrupts the normal energetic balance of the cell by altering the levels of intracellular ATP. This disruption cascades into a series of events that ultimately limit reproductive competency by inhibiting cell division.” Now what would be interesting, since evolutionists are having such a hard time grasping truly functional proteins, is if evolutionists could demonstrate how the "simple" ATP molecule, which is necessary for the construction of functional proteins, arose without the ATP enzyme in the first place: Evolution Vs ATP Synthase - Molecular Machine - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4012706 Molecular Machine - The ATP Synthase Enzyme - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4380205 Best Look Ever at Lifes Smallest Rotary Motor - article Excerpt: They imaged 19,825 motors to increase the average resolution down to 1.6 Angstroms (16 nanometers, or billionths of a meter). As a result, they were able to map out all the parts in better detail than ever, which are shown in photographs and diagrams in the paper. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201001.htm#20100107c "There are no detailed Darwinian accounts for the evolution of any fundamental biochemical or cellular system only a variety of wishful speculations. It is remarkable that Darwinism is accepted as a satisfactory explanation of such a vast subject." James Shapiro - Molecular Biologist ATP Synthase achieves nearly 100% efficiency which far surpasses any human engineered motor: A rotary molecular motor that can work at near 100% efficiency: Excerpt: In cells, the free energy of ATP hydrolysis is ca. 90 pN nm per ATP molecule, suggesting that the F1 motor can work at near 100% efficiency. We confirmed in vitro that F1 indeed does ca. 80 pN nm of work under the condition where the free energy per ATP is 90 pN nm. The high efficiency may be related to the fully reversible nature of the F1 motor: http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/355/1396/473.abstract Worlds Smallest Rotary Engine Highlighted Excerpt: The match implies 100% efficiency for the conversion of the Gibbs free energy of ATP hydrolysis into mechanical work performed on the elastically strained filament. This is not surprising given the approximate thermodynamic equilibrium of the enzyme (long)-filament construct. http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev200905.htm#20090525a ATP: The Perfect Energy Currency for the Cell Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. http://www.trueorigin.org/atp.asp Excerpt: Without ATP, life as we understand it could not exist. It is a perfectly-designed, intricate molecule that serves a critical role in providing the proper size energy packet for scores of thousands of classes of reactions that occur in all forms of life. Even viruses rely on an ATP molecule identical to that used in humans. The ATP energy system is quick, highly efficient, produces a rapid turnover of ATP, and can rapidly respond to energy demand changes (Goodsell, 1996, p.79). Furthermore, the ATP molecule is so enormously intricate that we are just now beginning to understand how it works. Each ATP molecule is over 500 atomic mass units (500 AMUs). In manufacturing terms, the ATP molecule is a machine with a level of organization on the order of a research microscope or a standard television (Darnell, Lodish, and Baltimore, 1996).bornagain77
July 2, 2010
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veilsofmaya, I appreciate your link, as I am a big fan for the potential of quantum computing doing something breathtaking, but you don't seem to understand the full scope of the problem searching for an unknown sequence in sequence space and then determining if that unknown sequence will be functional or not the same problem. They are two completely different computational problems entirely. Sorry for not pointing that out earlier. In the year 2000 IBM announced the development of a new super-computer, called Blue Gene, which was 500 times faster than any supercomputer built up until that time. It took 4-5 years to build. Blue Gene stands about six feet high, and occupies a floor space of 40 feet by 40 feet. It cost $100 million to build. It was built specifically to better enable computer simulations of molecular biology. The computer performs one quadrillion (one million billion) computations per second. Despite its speed, it was estimated to take one entire year for it to analyze the mechanism by which JUST ONE “simple” protein will fold onto itself from its one-dimensional starting point to its final three-dimensional shape. "Blue Gene's final product, due in four or five years, will be able to "fold" a protein made of 300 amino acids, but that job will take an entire year of full-time computing." Paul Horn, senior vice president of IBM research, September 21, 2000 http://www.news.com/2100-1001-233954.html "SimCell," anyone? "Unfortunately, Schulten's team won't be able to observe virtual protein synthesis in action. Even the fastest supercomputers can only depict such atomic complexity for a few dozen nanoseconds." - cool cellular animation videos on the site http://whyfiles.org/shorties/230simcell/ Networking a few hundred thousand computers together has reduced the time to a few weeks for simulating the folding of a single protein molecule: A Few Hundred Thousand Computers vs. A Single Protein Molecule - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4018233 In real life, the protein folds into its final shape in a fraction of a second! The Blue Gene computer would have to operate at least 33 million times faster to accomplish what the protein does in a fraction of a second. This is the complexity found for folding JUST ONE “simple” existing protein molecule there are many crucial proteins that are thousands of Amino Acids long for which the problem of computing folding is exponentially worse. As a sidelight to the complexity found for just folding existing proteins, the complexity of computing the actions of even a simple atom quickly exceeds the capacity of our supercomputers of today: Delayed time zero in photoemission: New record in time measurement accuracy - June 2010 Excerpt: Although they could confirm the effect qualitatively using complicated computations, they came up with a time offset of only five attoseconds. The cause of this discrepancy may lie in the complexity of the neon atom, which consists, in addition to the nucleus, of ten electrons. "The computational effort required to model such a many-electron system exceeds the computational capacity of today's supercomputers," explains Yakovlev. http://www.physorg.com/news196606514.html I like this tidbit you had veilsofmaya: (perhaps a strange reflection of the possibility that the machinery of DNA itself may actually function using quantum search algorithms [3]). It would not surprise me in the least if this were true since I hold the Designer invented/invents quantum mechanics as well. Veilsofmaya, you are so committed to the absurd metaphysical position of 10^500 parallel universes, as witnessed in your exchange with nullalalus the day before yesterday, I ain't even going to try to talk you out of it save to say even if it is true, which I have severe reservations about, it does not negate Theism in the least as you would hoped it would do.bornagain77
July 2, 2010
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Alex73 @ #2, I've been waiting for this argument of yours to be made. I've been thinking along the same lines but have never been able to write it down in a satisfactory English. Some of my argument is built on my understanding of "A Different Universe" by Prof. Robert B. LaughlinCabal
July 2, 2010
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@Bornagain. (#28) You wrote:
Thus it seems Alex73 the maximum limit of computing that is achievable by the most “perfect” ideal supercomputer in the physical universe will not be able to surpass the threshold that has already been granted to evolutionists for resources,
Born, Out of curiosity, how did you reach this conclusion? For example… - Are you a subscriber to Scientific American? If not, you only had access to a summary of the articles contents. - You seem to have merely assumed that quantum computing represents the most “perfect” ideal supercomputer in the physical universe, rather than derived it from the article or provided an argument or reference. - The qualifier "most" clearly does not specify if protein folding was one of the problems that would not benefit from quantum computing. You seem to have merely assumed it was. - For you to know a threshold was not surpassed, you'd need to the resulting limit once expanded by quantum computing and the amount of computational requirements granted or available to "evolutionists" to solve the problem. However, the article did not present any of these things, nor did you provide any numbers of references. Again, you merely seemed to assume this was the case. Note: I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, I'm just trying to understand how you reached this specific conclusion. It's a mystery to me. For example, since I *do* know that search is one of the kinds of computational problems that benefit from quantum computing, I recognized it as a natural fit for the job of searching through folding patterns. And since I knew Grovers' algorithm is one of the most well known quantum search algorithms, I did a a Google search for both "Grovers' algorithm" protein. As I expected, I found articles like this… http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/428487/files/0002076.pdf To quote from the research paper....
Some fundamental tasks in biocomputing involving sequence analysis include: searching databases in order to com- pare a new sub-sequence to existing sequences, inferring protein sequence from DNA sequence, and calculation of sequence alignment in the analysis of protein structure and function. A tremendous amount of computing is required, much of which is devoted to search-type prob- lems, either directly in large databases, or in configura- tion space of alignment possibilities. While it is possible that all of these problems may be amenable to quantum algorithmic speed-up, it is explicitly demonstrated in this work how the fundamental task of sequence alignment can be approached using a quantum computer. Indeed,this problem is a very natural application of the quantum search algorithm (perhaps a strange reflection of the possibility that the machinery of DNA itself may actually function using quantum search algorithms [3]).
Again, I'm not arguing one way or another. I'm just noting that, in reaching your conclusion, you made many assumptions which were not evident and at least one of those assumptions was false.
Even if you grant the most generous assumptions: that every elementary particle in the observable universe is a chemical laboratory randomly splicing amino acids into proteins every Planck time for the entire history of the universe, there is a vanishingly small probability that even a single functionally folded protein of 150 amino acids would have been created.
Of course, the hard to vary explanation of why Groves' search algorithm is O(./N) rather than the classical cost of O(N) is that it executes in parallel on 10^500 universes. This would seem to increase the odds dramatically. Again, I'm not arguing one way or another. Nor am I suggesting that posting and quoting links does not add to the discussion. I'm illustrating that it's *not* a substitute for actually understanding the subject at hand.veilsofmaya
July 1, 2010
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Petrushka: Ah, the famous Szostak’s paper! I would like to comment extensively about it, but probably I will not the time today. I will as soons as possible.gpuccio
July 1, 2010
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