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Has The Skeptical Zone Finally Earned its Name

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Perhaps.  Its founder is preaching materialist heresy.

In a post over at The Skeptical Zone Elizabeth Liddle joins the ranks of our opponents who are finally admiting that biological design inferences are not invalid in principle.  She writes:

Has Barry finally realised that those of us who oppose the ideas of Intelligent Design proponents do not dispute that it is possible, in principle, to make a reasonable inference of design?  That rather our opposition is based on the evidence and argument advanced, not on some principled (or unprincipled!) objection to the entire project?

EL, welcome to the ranks of biological design theorists, by which I mean that group of people willing to follow the evidence for (or against) design in biology wherever it leads.

There is more good news.  EL quoted me when I set forth the following objection ID proponents often get:  “All scientific claims must employ methodological naturalism, and you violate the principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology.”

EL writes:

Yes, indeed, Barry.  It is not a valid objection . . . There is nothing wrong with making a design inference in principle. We do it all the time, as IDists like to point out.  And there’s nothing wrong with making it in biology, at least in principle.  There is certainly nothing that violates the “principle of methodological naturalism when you make a design inference in biology”

There is even more good news.  EL rejects the idea that one most know who the designer is before one can infer design:

The objection to ID by people like me . . .  is not that it is impossible that terrestrial life was designed by an intelligent agent, nor that it would be necessarily impossible to discover that it was, nor even, I suggest, impossible to infer a designer even if we had no clue as to who the designer might be (although that might make it trickier).

She even agrees that biological design inferences can be made without invoking any supernatural agent:

If Barry means that we can only infer natural, not supernatural, design, he is absolutely correct

I have been saying biological ID infers merely “design” and not supernatural design for several years.  I am glad it has finally sunk it.

More good news.  EL quotes me again:  “You agree with us that it is the EVIDENCE that is important, and objections thrown up for the purpose of ruling that evidence out of court before it is even considered are invalid.”

And she agrees:

Yes, it is the EVIDENCE that is important,

Then she runs of the rails:

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

EL writes this sentence as if biological ID theory posits a supernatural designer.  Sigh.  Every prominent ID theorist has always (when speaking qua ID) said that it is a project to detect design, not supernatural design.

Then back to good news:

EL says she does not object to the broader ID project

. . . as stated in the UD FAQ:  In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences.

Wow.  Yes, that is EL folks.  Don’t believe me, follow the link and check it out yourself.

As I write this her post has gotten over 750 comments, some of which are very interesting.

The first one is EL’s own:

And that’s my point, really – that it’s perfectly possible to test ID hypotheses (small case id I guess) because you can test specific predictions arising from specific hypothesised scenarios.

ID opponent Glen Davidson joins the bandwagon and even adds an area of biological design that has received too little attention:

It is done in biology in fact as well as in principle. Genetic engineering can often be detected, and certainly would be searched for in the case of any biologic warfare. I wouldn’t particularly disagree with Allan Miller so long as there is no context, but, within known context, we can find telltale evidence of genetic tampering or of domestication.

Our William J. Murray jumps in with this zinger:

REC and Moran say they can detect convincing indications of design by intelligence …. what are their definitions and methodology? I mean, isn’t that what you guys always ask ID advocates?

A heaping helping of hypocrisy anyone?  🙂

Our old foe Kantian Naturalist agrees with EL!

I concur with the general sentiments expressed here.

EL even comes up with a not-half-bad definition of “intelligence” for the “I” in ID.

an entity with a human-like type capacity to invent things

EL then writes:

I absolutely agree that inferring design does not require a supernatural hypothesis. That was one of the points I was making in the OP.

I am not quite sure how she squares that with what she wrote before (which seemed to imply that she believes the “D” in ID is always posited to be supernatural agent even though all ID proponents say otherwise):

Of course, by the same token, nobody can claim that ID is false – it may well be true that life was designed by a supernatural designer

KN makes an astute observation:

I also think, quite frankly, that Dembski and Behe are also methodological naturalists (on my suggestion of what that concept means), and this comes out in their refusal to identify the putative designer(s) with any deity or deities. ID is consistent with methodological naturalism — as well as consistent with metaphysical naturalism.

Comments
As for messages in the genome- "build this polypeptide" comes to mind. That is the message delivered by the MESSENGER RNA to the ribosome.Virgil Cain
December 5, 2015
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Almost anything can be “compatible” with design scenarios,...
That is incorrect. There is a reason that not all deaths are considered murders, not all fires are considered arsons and not all rocks are considered artifacts. The design has testable entailments and these are borne out by Newton's four rules of scientific investigation (Occam's razor and parsimony). Any given design inference can be refuted by slicing off the need for a designer.Virgil Cain
December 5, 2015
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ID has testable entailments. IC is an entailment of evolutionism only in that it exists and because of that it evolved. :roll: And because it evolved it evolved by natural selection, drift and neutral changes. :roll: :roll: Unfortunately no one knows how to test the claim that those processes can produce IC systems and structures. It is a scientifically sterile claim.Virgil Cain
December 5, 2015
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mike1962: That’s right. When dealing with intention, obviously the approach is going to be different than when dealing with law-like sources. If there's no entailments, then there are no testable entailments, and the hypothesis is sterile. mike1962: Ask any forensic scientist. In other words, there are no scientific discoveries in biology that have resulted from entailments of the ID hypothesis. mike1962: Irreducibility is not an entailment of evolutionary principle. Yes, it is. See Muller, Genetic variability, twin hybrids and constant hybrids, in a case of balanced lethal factors, Genetics 1918. mike1962: I don’t know of any. Well, let us know.Zachriel
December 5, 2015
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Zachriel:
The genetic code was not discovered as a result of the ID hypothesis, but a consequence of genetic theory.
Complete and utter nonsense. Please try to do better Zachriel.Mung
December 5, 2015
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Zächrielein: Almost anything can be “compatible” with design scenarios, depending on their particulars. However, the discoveries are not *entailed* in the design scenario. That's right. When dealing with intention, obviously the approach is going to be different than when dealing with law-like sources. What scientific discoveries have resulted from entailments of the ID hypothesis? Ask any forensic scientist. The genetic code was not discovered as a result of the ID hypothesis, but a consequence of genetic theory. The genetic code is not an entailment of genetic theory. It's discovery is neutral. Irreducibility in genetics was first noted by Hermann Muller in 1918 based on evolutionary principles. Irreducibility is not an entailment of evolutionary principle. It's discovery is neutral. Well, that would be something. What is the message? I don't know of any. If any are found, it will probably be found by someone looking for them based on a design theoretic. Regardless of the philosophical notions of discoverer, if any are found they certainly would not be an entailment of blind evolutionary theory. I stand by what I said @97 and you've not succeeded in refuting it. You can have the last word.mike1962
December 5, 2015
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mike1962: This compatible with a design scenario. Almost anything can be "compatible" with design scenarios, depending on their particulars. However, the discoveries are not *entailed* in the design scenario. mike1962: Not it isn’t. What scientific discoveries have resulted from entailments of the ID hypothesis? mike1962: So does a design hypothesis with respect to biology. Coded information. Multiple layering of codes. The genetic code was not discovered as a result of the ID hypothesis, but a consequence of genetic theory. mike1962: Irreducible structures. Irreducibility in genetics was first noted by Hermann Muller in 1918 based on evolutionary principles. mike1962: Deliberate messages in the genome. Well, that would be something. What is the message?Zachriel
December 5, 2015
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Zächrielein: The hypothesis has led to discovery of novel ribozymes from random libraries, artificial molecular replicators, the discovery of complex molecules in plausible primordial conditions, protocells with replicating vesicles, etc. This compatible with a design scenario. Which means it's neutral, as I said. The hypothesis is scientifically sterile. Not it isn't. SETI makes specific predictions about the designer, which leads to specific predictions as to how to detect the artifact, the art, and the artisan. So does a design hypothesis with respect to biology. Coded information. Multiple layering of codes. The presence of structures where natural chemical affinity is vanishing low and practically impossible. Irreducible structures. Front loading strategies. Deliberate messages in the genome. Etc. The search for such things are more likely driven by a design theoretic. The design hypothetical is hardly scientifically sterile.mike1962
December 5, 2015
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"The hypothesis is scientifically sterile. " Incorrect, it is belief in a form of design that gave rise to modern science in the first place. What would be sterile is saying "stuff happens" and your faith position of unintentionalism, that provides no grounding for scientific research or understanding. Your faith in an unintended universe and unintended humans with minds that are the products of dumb chance provides absolutely 0 grounding for scientific investigation. "The hypothesis has led to discovery of novel ribozymes from random libraries, artificial molecular replicators, the discovery of complex molecules in plausible primordial conditions, protocells with replicating vesicles, etc. " Your faith in unintentionalism for how the universe and human mind came to be provides no grounds for discovery and what we have discovered about chemistry is that lifeless chemicals do not assemble to bring forth living organisms, As far as nature operates, if you want to get living organisms then they can only come from living organisms. That shows your appeal to a natural cause is to reject how nature is known to operate. Your faith is in disharmony with what is known about how nature operates. To try and get around this then scientists are working to artificially create life in the lab. Your faith of life originating spontaneously in a natural environment however produces nothing. Your faith is not a part of what is known empirically. Your faith is a rejection of what is known for how nature operates.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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mike1962: the fruit of OOL research so far is neutral. The hypothesis has led to discovery of novel ribozymes from random libraries, artificial molecular replicators, the discovery of complex molecules in plausible primordial conditions, protocells with replicating vesicles, etc. mike1962: A basic design hypothesis says that some features of the organism will be so unlikely that a intelligence is more likely. The hypothesis is scientifically sterile. mike1962: You implied that my position necessarily leads to humans as the designers of earth life because the replicator contains coded information, and the only known source of coded information is intelligence in the form of humans. You want to extrapolate to something called "design". Such vagueness doesn't lead to testable predictions about the artisan or the art. SETI makes specific predictions about the designer, which leads to specific predictions as to how to detect the artifact, the art, and the artisan.Zachriel
December 1, 2015
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Zächrielein: While abiogenetic hypotheses have been scientifically fruitful; Despite the personal philosophy of any researcher, the fruit of OOL research so far is neutral. The chemicals produced by known processes are just as useful to an intelligent designer and constructor of life as they are to whatever unknown naturalistic processes may have assembled the first life form. Only when a complete testable and falsifiable naturalistic theory exists will anyone know if the "fruit" favors the naturalistic theory or not. design hypotheses say nothing, predict nothing, A basic design hypothesis says that some features of the organism will be so unlikely that a intelligence is more likely. As in the case of coded information, particularly when there is no likely stocastic chemical affinities between codes and resulting proteins. Which is what we see. lead to no new insights. We'll have to wait and see. SETI doesn’t wave their hands and say “design”, but hypothesize specific characteristics of the artisan, art, and artifact. They explicitly looks to abiogenesis and evolution to guide research. That’s why they point their telescopes at stars, and are particularly interested in Earth-like planets. The point evidently evaded you. You implied that my position necessarily leads to humans as the designers of earth life because the replicator contains coded information, and the only known source of coded information is intelligence in the form of humans. But if you're going to insist on using that sauce for the goose, you'll have to lather up the gander too, because SETI is looking for coded information as well, from intelligent beings that are presumably not human. I can live with the idea that human-like intelligent entities other than humans exist, and so can SETI, apparently. We can be sure they’d like to watch alien sitcoms, but all their current experiments are for the detection of narrowband electromagnetic emissions. Is that suppose to be a refutation of my point? At any rate, nothing you have said refutes what I wrote @96.mike1962
December 1, 2015
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196"Not in current conditions for the short periods of human observation. The evidence indicates life began on Earth billions of years ago when the Earth was much different from what it is today." The evidence indicates that as far as nature goes, then you are not going to get it spontaneously from nature. You're most welcome to go outside of what is known for how nature operates and believe that chemistry acted differently in the past, Your belief is not a natural one though as you reject how nature is known to operate.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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Jack Jones: We however observe that life does not arise spontaneously from non living chemicals. Not in current conditions for the short periods of human observation. The evidence indicates life began on Earth billions of years ago when the Earth was much different from what it is today. mike1962: Not much. And nothing that reasonably rules out competing hypotheses, such as intelligent intervention. While abiogenetic hypotheses have been scientifically fruitful; design hypotheses say nothing, predict nothing, lead to no new insights. mike1962: So the intelligent life on other planets that SETI is searching for are humans? No. SETI doesn't wave their hands and say "design", but hypothesize specific characteristics of the artisan, art, and artifact. They explicitly looks to abiogenesis and evolution to guide research. That's why they point their telescopes at stars, and are particularly interested in Earth-like planets. mike1962: SETI is “just looking” for narrow-band emissions in hopes of finding “polariz[ation]” or “coded information” because those are “tell-tale” signs of “an intelligent signal.” We can be sure they'd like to watch alien sitcoms, but all their current experiments are for the detection of narrowband electromagnetic emissions. EugeneS: Different conditions indeed! Are you suggesting the Earth has always been the way it is today?Zachriel
December 1, 2015
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Zachriel @192 does not know what he is talking about! "Chemistry didn’t act differently, but conditions were different." Different conditions indeed! Facepalm.EugeneS
December 1, 2015
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Zächrielein: It’s been our position all along. Glad to hear it. True. But there is evidence supporting the general hypothesis. Not much. And nothing that reasonably rules out competing hypotheses, such as intelligent intervention. So humans created the first life. So the intelligent life on other planets that SETI is searching for are humans? All current SETI experiments are just looking for narrowband electromagnetic emissions. SETI is "just looking" for narrow-band emissions in hopes of finding "polariz[ation]" or "coded information" because those are "tell-tale" signs of "an intelligent signal." http://www.seti.org/faq#obs3mike1962
December 1, 2015
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"Chemistry didn’t act differently, but conditions were different." Well you're entitled to your faith that laws of chemistry were inoperative because you claim conditions were different. We however observe that life does not arise spontaneously from non living chemicals. You are going outside of what is known naturally. You are thus inconsistent when you appeal to nature. if you want to appeal to nature then you have to stick to what is known about how nature operates. If you want to go outside of nature and appeal to a different kind of chemistry that is not governed by known natural law then you have to admit that you yourself hold a supernatural belief.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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Jack Jones: Nope, the law of Biogenesis shows life cannot originate naturally. A scientific law is just a generalized observation. Abiogenesis is posited to occur in conditions that are not now extant on the Earth. Jack Jones: You are welcome to believe chemistry acted differently in the past ... Chemistry didn't act differently, but conditions were different.Zachriel
December 1, 2015
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@190 "True. But there is evidence supporting the general hypothesis" Nope, the law of Biogenesis shows life cannot originate naturally. You are welcome to believe chemistry acted differently in the past and that life arose spontaneously from chance interactions of lifeless chemicals but your faith is non natural, You are being logically inconsistent.Jack Jones
December 1, 2015
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mike1962: Thanks for the acknowledgement. It's been our position all along. mike1962: OOL hypotheses are incomplete and unproven. True. But there is evidence supporting the general hypothesis. mike1962: Intelligent agents (humans) are known to create coded information. So humans created the first life. mike1962: Which is why SETI is looking for signals with coded information All current SETI experiments are just looking for narrowband electromagnetic emissions.Zachriel
December 1, 2015
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"That’s why theories of abiogenesis are still considered tentative. Nonetheless, they have been scientifically fruitful." Considering Abiogenesis is to go outside of how nature is known to operate. The law of Biogenesis shows that what is natural is that life only comes from previous life. When you appeal to life arising spontaneously in nature then you are rejecting how nature is known to operate. You appeal to nature while rejecting how nature is known to operate. You are not consistent Lee and your faith is in disharmony with what is empirically known for how nature operates. If you want to appeal to nature then you have to stay inside of what is known for how nature operates Lee. You shouldn't be a hypocrite now.Jack Jones
November 30, 2015
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Zächrielein: No doubt Thanks for the acknowledgement. That’s why theories of abiogenesis are still considered tentative. Quite. Nonetheless, they have been scientifically fruitful. So? My statements @97 and beyond hold. If and when SETI finds a candidate signal, it will be analyzed for a possible coded message. However, ALL current experiments look for any narrow-band electromagnetic emission without regard to “code”. So? My statements @97 and beyond hold.mike1962
November 30, 2015
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mike1962: The evidence is very far from getting where you need to go. No doubt. That's why theories of abiogenesis are still considered tentative. Nonetheless, they have been scientifically fruitful. mike1962: To their credit SETI is looking for signs of intelligence regardless That is correct. All current experiments are based on attempts to find a narrow-band electromagnetic emission. mike1962: Such narrow-band signals are what all SETI experiments look for. Other tell-tale characteristics include a signal that is completely polarized or [<— right there] the existence of coded information on the signal. If and when SETI finds a candidate signal, it will be analyzed for a possible coded message. However, ALL current experiments look for any narrow-band electromagnetic emission without regard to "code".Zachriel
November 30, 2015
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However, there is evidence supporting the formation of nucleotides, and nucleotide polymers, and the formation of self-catalyzing nucleotide polymers.
RE- Stonehenge: There is evidence supporting the formation of stones, stone-cutting forces and forces that can move stones. That is more than just parts but a clue to the possible transition to the current geological formation.Virgil Cain
November 30, 2015
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SETI is looking for an ARTIFICIAL signal, ie a signal that mother nature could not produce.Virgil Cain
November 30, 2015
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Zächrielein: your point seems to be that just because complex chemicals may form naturally, that doesn’t mean molecular replicators may form. However, there is evidence supporting the formation of nucleotides, and nucleotide polymers, and the formation of self-catalyzing nucleotide polymers. That is more than just parts, but a clue to a possible transition to molecular self-replication. The evidence is very far from getting where you need to go. No, they are not *looking* for coded information. They will look for coded information, if and when any candidate signals are found. That one made me laugh out loud. It’s evidence of the historical basis for SETI. That’s why they point their telescopes at other stars — they’re suns for other worlds. It's still bunk. To their credit SETI is looking for signs of intelligence regardless, as previously stated. What is it with IDers and ellipses? The missing text is “Such narrow-band signals are what all SETI experiments look for.” What is it with the Zächrielein hive's vision processing? Do you see the "or" in there? I'll post it with more context, and a helpful annotation:
The main feature distinguishing signals produced by a transmitter from those produced by natural processes is their spectral width, i.e. how much room on the radio dial do they take up? Any signal less than about 300 Hz wide must be, as far as we know, artificially produced. Such narrow-band signals are what all SETI experiments look for. Other tell-tale characteristics include a signal that is completely polarized or [<--- right there] the existence of coded information on the signal. Unfortunately, SETI searches are burdened with confusion caused by narrow-band, polarized and coded signals from our own planet. Military radar and telecommunications satellites produce such signals. The Allen Telescope Array sorts out these confusing signals by comparing the cosmic static received from one part of the sky with that from another.
It is obvious that SETI is looking for polarized signals "or" coded information on a signal.mike1962
November 30, 2015
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mike1962: Anyone who is interesting in my point is welcomee to read what I wrote above. Here's your point above. mike1962: Nature created stones therefore Stonehenge? We have to read between the lines, but your point seems to be that just because complex chemicals may form naturally, that doesn't mean molecular replicators may form. However, there is evidence supporting the formation of nucleotides, and nucleotide polymers, and the formation of self-catalyzing nucleotide polymers. That is more than just parts, but a clue to a possible transition to molecular self-replication. mike1962: SETI is looking for coded information anyway because it is a sign of intelligence regardless of how the intelligence came to exist. No, they are not *looking* for coded information. They will look for coded information, if and when any candidate signals are found. mike1962: Drake’s equation is bunk. It's evidence of the historical basis for SETI. That's why they point their telescopes at other stars — they're suns for other worlds. mike1962: "How do you know if you’ve detected an intelligent, extraterrestrial signal?… Other tell-tale characteristics include a signal that is completely polarized or the existence of coded information on the signal." What is it with IDers and ellipses? The missing text is "Such narrow-band signals are what all SETI experiments look for." If they find such a signal, then it will be analyzed to see if it encodes any information. No matter what they claim to have found, it will subject to intense scrutiny.Zachriel
November 30, 2015
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Zächrielein: t’s not a complete theory That's an understatement. If you had a point it was that there is no evidence supporting abiogenesis. We provided a broad outline of that evidence. Anyone who is interesting in my point is welcomee to read what I wrote above. You have provided no refutation. No, it’s a hypothesis based on what is know of how life arose and diversified on Earth. SETI is looking for coded information regardless of the unproven status of the hypothesis because coded information is an obvious sign of intelligence regardless of how the intelligence came to exist. See Drake’s Equation for some idea of the thinking involved. http://www.seti.org/drakeequation Drake's equation is bunk. That SETI is searching for coded information despite giving lip service to the Drake Equation is to their credit. they are not trying to detect coded information Yes they are. As cited above:
How do you know if you’ve detected an intelligent, extraterrestrial signal?… Other tell-tale characteristics include a signal that is completely polarized or the existence of coded information on the signal.
http://www.seti.org/faq#obs3mike1962
November 30, 2015
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Daniel King:
That’s the classic Luria – Delbruck experiment. It specifically addresses that issue!
Yes, it does but not in the way you think. Ya see bacteria are part of the environment and we know that bacteria communicate. The environmental cue would come from that communication. So thank you for proving that you are a narrow-minded coward.Virgil Cain
November 28, 2015
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Virgil:
That has nothing to do with whether or not the mutations were happenstance occurrences or induced by the organism in response to some environmental cue.
That's the classic Luria - Delbruck experiment. It specifically addresses that issue! You're hopeless. This thread is dead. Enjoy talking to yourself.Daniel King
November 28, 2015
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How can ID's hypothesis be tested? 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. 1 and 2 are tested by observations and experiences. And if point 3 is refuted then point 1 also falls. Point 3 is about the inability natural selection, drift and neutral changes to produce molecular machinery and the changes required to produce the diversity of life. So all you and yours have to do is step up and show us that we are wrong by demonstrating those processes can do it. However you need testable hypotheses first.Virgil Cain
November 28, 2015
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