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PZ Myers throws down a gauntlet to ID

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Yesterday, Intelligent Design critic and creationist basher, P.Z. Meyers, posted what he considers to be a real scientific challenge for ID proponents on his Pharyngula blogsite. The main thrust of his challenge is outlined in this Youtube video:

[youtube ZkED8cWRu4Q]

So, has Myers indeed stumbled upon a true significant challenge for ID?  Or, has he simply stumbled, as he so often does, over his own misconceptions and metaphysics?  I vote for the latter.
First off, he stumbles into what Phillip Johnson called Berra’s Blunder referring to Darwinist Tim Berra’s book Evolution and the myth of creationism,1990, pg 117-119, where Berra writes “If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people.” As Johnson points out, Berra completely misses the point that similarities between cars are still the result of common design.

“Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence – like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court – does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a Creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.”
P. Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by opening minds, 1997, pg 63.

In other words, homolgy doesn’t necessarity imply evolution, or exclude design. In his challenge, Myers is relying on the same sort of blunder, as he is assuming that any homology automatically eliminates design. My challenge back to him would be to show scientifically why that is the case.

ID proponent and Darwinism critic, Cornelius G. Hunter points out the hidden metaphysical blunder Myers is making as well. On his Darwin’s God blogspot, Hunter writes “While there are several problems with the challenge, the disguised religion comes around the 1:15 mark, [in the Youtube video], where the criterion of homology is explained. Don’t worry if you are not familiar with the concept of homology. The bottom line is that the challenge uses random design as a test for whether a structure evolved. Specifically, if there is any non random pattern detectable, then it must not have been designed; instead, it must have evolved.” Hunter goes on to say “This is today’s version of a test that dates back to Daniel Bernoulli and Immanuel Kant in the eighteenth century. The idea is that God would not design according to a gratuitous pattern.” In other words, this yet another version of the old “God wouldn’t have done it this way” argument. It would be interesting to see Myers scientific explanation for how he knows what God would or would not do.

Then there’s Myers’s implied Philosophical Naturalism, as he writes in the blog “The argument has long been highly asymmetric. Scientist find a gene, and what do they do? Figure out what it does, and dig into the databases to find its relatives within that organism or in other species. Creationists claim genes can’t be created without the intervention of a designer, and what do they do? Nothing.” In other words, Myers merely assumes evolution is the only explanation for homology, and his criticism of ID is that they aren’t busy digging into databases looking for those homologies, that is to say a naturalistic explanation for the data. Thus, according to Myers, doing “nothing”, means “not looking for only undirected, natural causes” as opposed to actively trying to understand the information content of the genetic code, tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about. All that, per Myers, is doing “nothing”.

Comments
Before continuing a debate about what is a religion and what is not, what about going to the roots: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Etymology
The English word religion has been in use since the 13th century, loaned from Anglo-French religiun (11th century), ultimately from the Latin religio, "reverence for God or the gods, careful pondering of divine things, piety, the res divinae".[5]
It strikes me as somewhat contradictory to say what amounts to: Belief in God is religion. Non-belief in God is religion.Cabal
May 19, 2009
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"Still waiting for a candidate after a hundred posts." Anyone have any doubts about what drives this frivolous comment. This is why it is so easy to read the anti ID people here. They are so so very transparent. The answer was provided far above. They all are designed. Each gene encodes proteins through a process only known to exist through intelligence. Now it is possible and that the new paradigm coming into ascendancy, which is trying to replace Darwinian gradualism, will show where unused areas of DNA mutate into a usable gene or two and are then exapted to be functional could end up explaining some examples. However, current examples are thin. That is what the whole discussions about searches is about, the possible finding of these genes by serendipity and Allen MacNeill's 50+ engines of variations. If it could show that thousands or even a few hundred genes arose this way or maybe even a couple dozen or so, ID would be on the run. However, even if this process was able to show genes arising naturally, it begs the question of the transcription and translation process necessary to make the information specified. The genes only become specified by the elaborate process of producing proteins that have function. Now where did that process come from? So the stunt published on PZ Myers site is a desperate attempt to cover up the inadequacy of current evolutionary biology to explain macro evolution. Do you think they would waste all this time let, alone a nano second, trying to discredit ID if they could point to how all the genes developed naturally. I think folks around here need to look at human nature a little more to understand what is going on. The anti ID crew haven't got anything or else they would be acting quite differently. Does anyone remember the Visa commercial where the artist was trying to impress his girl friend that his blank white canvas represented a new level of art and her astute reply was that the art supply store wouldn't take his check. So the selling point was that he should use a Visa card. I don't think anyone around here should start cashing the anti ID people's checks let alone take their credit cards. They are bankrupt. Hey, this isn't to say that some genes or maybe several arose through nature but then they must climb the next hurdle and that is the creation of specified information. Ribosome et al., here we come.jerry
May 18, 2009
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Alan (see #104), Sorry, I just got back. As I understand it, (Im not a scientist), evolution claims that we have descended from earlier forms, by many small changes. Thus evolution predicts that we would find precursors to our genes in earlier forms. This seems to be obvious. If we found an entirely new (human) gene that had no precursors in earlier forms (monkeys etc), it would be a problem for evolution, and a comfort to ID. Im not suggesting that ID cannot ever have any precursors. The car analogy demonstrates this. Im merely making the simple point that an entirely new gene with no precursors would be a problem for evolution and of interest to ID, thus I would have thought that the ID crowd would like to take up the challenge. (And the Bible quotes dont help).Graham
May 18, 2009
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Diffaxial @94 Well I have no doubts that you actually read my post, but to make it more clear a fair test would at least include the possibility of the proctor allowing you to pass it.tragic mishap
May 18, 2009
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Seversky @72 "No, atheism is not a faith. As an atheist, I can say that I do not believe in a god because I know of no compelling evidence to support the existence of such a being." I respectfully disagree. I think you have made Chance your god. You must believe that all that exists, is simply by Chance, that our universe won the lottery of potential universes that (also by chance) have remarkably fine-tuned parameters for life. You may not worship Chance, but your world view crumbles without it. As well, without positive evidence that the universe began by Almighty Chance, you must excercise faith that ALL the other explanations are less plausible. That takes a lot of faith. Unfortunately, Chance does not "do" anything, is not a causal agent. I'm afraid you have put your faith in something....that does nothing. I think there are is a reasonable alternative. What do you think?Bantay
May 18, 2009
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derwood--As an atheist, I have “faith” that natural processes and mechanisms are sufficient to explain the phenomena that we can investigate in any real way, in large part because of the track record of such investigations, therefore, I do not need to have “Faith” in this. Are you saying these investigations have never provided incorrect answers, or are you saying that while this method routinely gives wrong answers its ability to self-correct inevitably leads to the right one and that you have the faith that through this method all will be known? Using a supernaturalistic mindframe, tell me - what do reearch programs look like? Why would you use a "supernaturalistic" research program to investigate nature?tribune7
May 18, 2009
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PaulN: derwood @110, I’m terribly sorry, but can you explain to me the difference between “faith” and “Faith” please? I’ve never been familiar with such a distinction before. Hi Paul, Sorry - I meant to explain that and failed to do so. For me, small 'f' faith refers to more of an expectation, while capital 'F' Faith refers to what I suppose we can refer to as 'religious faith', as in belief without the need for evidence. Me: As an atheist, I have “faith” that natural processes and mechanisms are sufficient to explain the phenomena that we can investigate in any real way, in large part because of the track record of such investigations, therefore, I do not need to have “Faith” in this. PaulN: How can you be so sure that these natural processes themselves aren’t designed? Because it is turtles all the way down? For my part, I do not and rationally cannot deny the possibility of some 'higher power'getting the ball rolling, so to speak, but at the same time, I see no reason TO believe that. Not understanding something for me is no reason to adopt a 'designer did it' position. Also are you implying that designed systems cannot be investigated in any “real” way because they don’t follow methodological naturalism? In a snese, I am concluding that premised on some of the things I have read, written by ID advocates themselves. For example, when design advocates use 'good design' arguments to support their position, they reject examples of 'bad design' as an argument against it, claiming that the designer's motives are unknown, so what we might see as bad design really isn't. But how then to determine the designer's motives? Seems that the supernaturalistic mindset sets up, by definition, an unfalsifiable position. If I am incorrect, perhaps you can give an example of valid research into the supposed 'intelligent design' of a structure/entity that does NOT rely on contrived probability calculations, analogies, and the like? It sounds to me like you’re defining the terms and conditions in which anything should be “truly” investigated according to a naturalistic mindframe. Perhaps you can correct me, then. How, using a supernaturalistic (?) mindframe would one investigate the natural world and identify evidence for supernatural/Intelligent intervention? Answer me one question please, how would you find the truth using this methodology if the universe really is designed? We are constantly told that that WAS the mindframe of all the great scientists of old, and yet these folk did not seem able to find any concrete evidence that the universe was designed. Using a naturalistic mindframe to study the natural world seems reasonable to me, and it seems to me that unless this designer used what we might refer to as "magic" that evidence for a non-natural creation might be forthcoming. I am aware of many philosophical arguments surrounding this issue, but philosophical arguments, to me, are the arguments employed when one cannot muster evidence. I find it somewhat sad that ID advocates are forced to try to find 'Design' in bacterial flagella and the like using what amount to math tricks and semantics when they believe that this 'designer' had the power to create the entire universe and everything in it. It seems like it should be a bit more obvious. Using a supernaturalistic mindframe, tell me - what do reearch programs look like?derwood
May 18, 2009
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derwood @110, I'm terribly sorry, but can you explain to me the difference between "faith" and "Faith" please? I've never been familiar with such a distinction before.
As an atheist, I have “faith” that natural processes and mechanisms are sufficient to explain the phenomena that we can investigate in any real way, in large part because of the track record of such investigations, therefore, I do not need to have “Faith” in this.
How can you be so sure that these natural processes themselves aren't designed? Also are you implying that designed systems cannot be investigated in any "real" way because they don't follow methodological naturalism? It sounds to me like you're defining the terms and conditions in which anything should be "truly" investigated according to a naturalistic mindframe. Answer me one question please, how would you find the truth using this methodology if the universe really is designed?PaulN
May 18, 2009
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Interesting that bfast referred to them as 'orphan' genes, rather than 'orfan'. Anyway, yes, they seem interesting, however, I came across a recent paper which looked at orfans in E.coli and concluded that they are likely the products of phage activity: "Rather, ORFans in the genomes of free-living microorganisms apparently derive from bacteriophage and occasionally become established by assuming roles in key cellular functions." from Bacterial Genomes as New Gene Homes: The Genealogy of ORFans in E. coli. It will be interesting to see what comes of it, but I agree that even if these genes end up being enigmas, how that counts as "design" remains to be established.derwood
May 18, 2009
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derwood [105]:
Second, the challenge has nothing to do with homology, it is asking for unambiguous evidence for a designed/created gene.
Still waiting for a candidate after a hundred posts. But I'm not convinced that lack of homology is ruled out, at least as a place to start. bfast in #2 mentioned orphan genes - open reading frames with no homology to any known gene. There might be a lot of them worth examining - assuming one had some clear criteria for distinguishing the designed from the evolved.Adel DiBagno
May 18, 2009
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PaulN: Are atheists not just as faithful in purely naturalistic processes explaining the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe as religious people are toward God or gods? I think you are conflating "faith" with "Faith" in addition to adding some unnecessary baggage to what an atheist may or may not 'believe.' For example, I am pretty suire that the typical atheist does not SEE 'purpose'in the universe, so ascribing their 'faith' in naturalism to explain 'purpose' is a strawman, it seems to me. As an atheist, I have "faith" that natural processes and mechanisms are sufficient to explain the phenomena that we can investigate in any real way, in large part because of the track record of such investigations, therefore, I do not need to have "Faith" in this.derwood
May 18, 2009
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jerry, ----"If rvb8 had good intentions he would ask questions not pontificate on our ignorance." Fair enough.Clive Hayden
May 18, 2009
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Cabal: 102 Correct - Belief about the Creator revels who you are spiritually. And yes, the "religion" (a true Christian would not refer to the Revelation as a religion - religion being what men think about things including atheism) of Christianity is about the Evidence provided for its confirmation and revealed to be True by God into to New Resurrected Soul imparted. This is WHY the natural man can not understand or even want to know God as 1 Cor. 2:14 points out. This is why the anti-ID persons use argument such as Graham did in #69 did to (intentionally or not) obfuscate the real science. Its hand waiving. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.alan
May 18, 2009
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No, atheists don’t have a “shared set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. Atheists have all sorts of beliefs about these things, with the only common feature being that there is no God involved.
Could you not say the same thing about religious people from all different faiths, with the exception of the belief that there is a god involved? Are atheists not just as faithful in purely naturalistic processes explaining the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe as religious people are toward God or gods? Does deep time and limitless chance not serve the same purpose in a naturalistic world view to explain the "illusion" of design? Atheism is a faith on many fronts, while not explicitly religious, there certainly are many religious implications following philosophical naturalism.PaulN
May 18, 2009
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As another aside, Behe's post on 2-mutation evolution is mentioned. Is there any evidence that evolution requires such specific, sequential mutation accumulation?derwood
May 18, 2009
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The author of the OP seems to have misinterpreted a couple of things. First, that was not PZ's challenge, he simply embedded the video on his site. Second, the challenge has nothing to do with homology, it is asking for unambiguous evidence for a designed/created gene. As it is the position of the ID community, or so I infer, that genes, being the primary carriers of "information", such information by definition being of an Intelligent source, it seems a reasonable challenge. Joseph - As an aside, what unit were you with in Iraq? What was your MOS?derwood
May 18, 2009
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Graham: Thats what evolution is all about, descent with modification. Its why all those biologists out there accept evolution and laugh at ID and and wailing about probabilities. Graham - are you laughing as well? and who are "all those scientists" - how much hand waiving, how many assumptions, how many straw-men and as if these probabilities have no weight. Are you able to understand StephenA's point at all? Do you ignore so you can obfuscate on purpose? Seems you live your life on the laws of chance yet distain probabilities. Well that is par for the materialist. From Wesley on Rom. 1:20 "For those things of him which are invisible, are seen - By the eye of the mind. Being understood - They are seen by them, and them only, who use their understanding" Please don't interpret this post as being in the same spirit as your. i.e. I am not laughing at you, but would ask you one question - would you WANT to know the/a "Creator" anyway? "There was a time before the past When things to come were clearly cast"alan
May 18, 2009
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No, atheists don't have a "shared set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe. Atheists have all sorts of beliefs about these things, with the only common feature being that there is no God involved.hazel
May 18, 2009
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tsmith @ 98:
atheist have a shared set of beliefs ‘concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe’ so yes it is a religion.
I may be ill informed and ignorant about what religion is, but I have been living under the assumption that it is essentially about salvation of man's soul? As far as I can tell, beliefs relating to cosmology, astronomy, geology and many other scientific issues are irrelevant wrt salvation, which is about dying and resurrecting with Christ? That is at least how I understand Christianity. Other religions probably have other criteria but as far as I know they are more about spiritual matters (for instance man's relation to the deity) than about beliefs regarding the material world.Cabal
May 18, 2009
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Adel DiBagno Once the design inference is reached it opens up new questions. And given our nature we will do what we can to answer them. . . What are your plans? With regard to attempting to find the identity of the designer maybe we just put that on hold -- at least with regard to using a naturalistic methodology. With regard to understanding the universe, once design is presumed we can focus our study as to how the forces of the universe work and use this knowledge for our benefit, materially and philosophically. If you want to consider a "science-stopper" suppose the universe is designed and we insist on working from the assumption that it is not.tribune7
May 18, 2009
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rvb8-Just that this simple fact is undeniable is hardly cause to call me ’stupid’ He didn't call you stupid, rvb8. He called your comment stupid. There is a big difference. For instance, calling our science "barren and dull" is not the same as calling us "barren and dull", do you agree? And "when ‘design’ is detected, what in universes, is the point of going further?" is a pretty stupid comment. Einstein presumed a design to the universe. Do you think he wanted to quit?tribune7
May 18, 2009
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P.S. on 95: Sorry, I couldn't resist the joke. I don't even know what paper you were talking about. For the record, the word wanted is "gist".hazel
May 18, 2009
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hazel, It is a peer-reviewed paper. Adel, Dr Behe has throroughly refuted the premise of the paper- that his "edge" has been sought and found. You can read Behe's responses here- just scoll down to "Waiting Longer for Two Mutations, Part 1"Joseph
May 18, 2009
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Joseph, We are all in your debt for your service to our country. A debt we can never repay.Adel DiBagno
May 18, 2009
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Diffaxial [77]:
Vis your linked paper, I find an abstract only, one that promises results that cast doubt upon Behe’s conclusions regarding the limits of Darwinian processes. Pointedly enough to have provoked a reply from Behe in all his himselfitude. That doesn’t sound promising for your position. However, absent the paper itself it is impossible to say more.
A free pdf of the full paper is available here: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=2581952&blobtype=pdf Yes, it is critical of Behe's claims.Adel DiBagno
May 18, 2009
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At 92:
The jest of the paper is that if something requires two specified mutations ...
Yes, many people did think it was a joke. :)hazel
May 18, 2009
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Tragic @ 89
Just thought I’d chime in that the real reason it’s not a fair test...
So, what would be?Diffaxial
May 18, 2009
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tsmith, Balad, Iraq March 2004. I think I was trying to prove one can outrun an RPG :)Joseph
May 18, 2009
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Diffaxial:
So, WHAT traces do you predict necessarily arise from the design activities that yielded living organisms? What specific traces do you predict, such that failure to observe them places your theory in jeopardy of disconfirmation?
Irreducible complexity and/ or complex specified information. Both have been defined far more rigorously than anything evolutionists have to offer. So all you have to do is to demonstrate that IC and CSI can arise via nature, operating freely and ID falls. And that is what I have been telling you for months and everyone else for years.
Vis your linked paper, I find an abstract only, one that promises results that cast doubt upon Behe’s conclusions regarding the limits of Darwinian processes. Pointedly enough to have provoked a reply from Behe in all his himselfitude.
The promise made has been soundly refuted. The jest of the paper is that if something requires two specified mutations then that would take about 25 million years in a fast reproducing organism such as the fruit fly. And that is only if no deletrious mutations occur during that same time frame.Joseph
May 18, 2009
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Jerry, I'm not angry, or even all that argumentative, but I do seem to have touched a raw nerve; namely research and the lack thereof from ID. Just that this simple fact is undeniable is hardly cause to call me 'stupid', I would not do this to you inperson and I retain that simple morality while posting. mullerpr: Why would an anti-theist bother to do science? To gain an insight into how things came to be, minus a designer, or any other outside force. Curiosity, a very evolved function. Because without a designer the "how?", becomes infinately more interesting, and infinately less easily explained away, that's why.rvb8
May 18, 2009
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