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PZ Myers throws down a gauntlet to ID

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Yesterday, Intelligent Design critic and creationist basher, P.Z. Meyers, posted what he considers to be a real scientific challenge for ID proponents on his Pharyngula blogsite. The main thrust of his challenge is outlined in this Youtube video:

[youtube ZkED8cWRu4Q]

So, has Myers indeed stumbled upon a true significant challenge for ID?  Or, has he simply stumbled, as he so often does, over his own misconceptions and metaphysics?  I vote for the latter.
First off, he stumbles into what Phillip Johnson called Berra’s Blunder referring to Darwinist Tim Berra’s book Evolution and the myth of creationism,1990, pg 117-119, where Berra writes “If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people.” As Johnson points out, Berra completely misses the point that similarities between cars are still the result of common design.

“Of course, every one of those Corvettes was designed by engineers. The Corvette sequence – like the sequence of Beethoven’s symphonies to the opinions of the United States Supreme Court – does not illustrate naturalistic evolution at all. It illustrates how intelligent designers will typically achieve their purposes by adding variations to a basic design plan. Above all, such sequences have no tendency whatever to support the claim that there is no need for a Creator, since blind natural forces can do the creating. On the contrary, they show that what biologists present as proof of “evolution” or “common ancestry” is just as likely to be evidence of common design.”
P. Johnson, Defeating Darwinism by opening minds, 1997, pg 63.

In other words, homolgy doesn’t necessarity imply evolution, or exclude design. In his challenge, Myers is relying on the same sort of blunder, as he is assuming that any homology automatically eliminates design. My challenge back to him would be to show scientifically why that is the case.

ID proponent and Darwinism critic, Cornelius G. Hunter points out the hidden metaphysical blunder Myers is making as well. On his Darwin’s God blogspot, Hunter writes “While there are several problems with the challenge, the disguised religion comes around the 1:15 mark, [in the Youtube video], where the criterion of homology is explained. Don’t worry if you are not familiar with the concept of homology. The bottom line is that the challenge uses random design as a test for whether a structure evolved. Specifically, if there is any non random pattern detectable, then it must not have been designed; instead, it must have evolved.” Hunter goes on to say “This is today’s version of a test that dates back to Daniel Bernoulli and Immanuel Kant in the eighteenth century. The idea is that God would not design according to a gratuitous pattern.” In other words, this yet another version of the old “God wouldn’t have done it this way” argument. It would be interesting to see Myers scientific explanation for how he knows what God would or would not do.

Then there’s Myers’s implied Philosophical Naturalism, as he writes in the blog “The argument has long been highly asymmetric. Scientist find a gene, and what do they do? Figure out what it does, and dig into the databases to find its relatives within that organism or in other species. Creationists claim genes can’t be created without the intervention of a designer, and what do they do? Nothing.” In other words, Myers merely assumes evolution is the only explanation for homology, and his criticism of ID is that they aren’t busy digging into databases looking for those homologies, that is to say a naturalistic explanation for the data. Thus, according to Myers, doing “nothing”, means “not looking for only undirected, natural causes” as opposed to actively trying to understand the information content of the genetic code, tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about. All that, per Myers, is doing “nothing”.

Comments
In the opening post, Donald writes, and Severesky quotes,
Thus, according to Myers, doing “nothing”, means “not looking for only undirected, natural causes” as opposed to actively trying to understand the information content of the genetic code, tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about. All that, per Myers, is doing “nothing”.
Hmmm. I’m not sure that I know of any ID advocate that is try to do the part I bolded above. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve read quite a bit from ID advocates that say the bolded part is not necessary, or even possible. So, Donald, could you point to some examples of where ID advocates are “tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about”? Doing the above would be a part of identifying a gene that has been designed, I would think. If ID advocates are really doing something rather than nothing in regards to the things Donald mentioned, could someone point to that work and/or summarize it here?hazel
May 16, 2009
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atheism is obviously a faith. its a worldview, and it requires faith in the atheist creation fable, evolution. you have faith there is no God...no proof, just as you have faith in evolution, which you cannot prove. So you believe that all that you see just happened, that evolution explains why giraffes are tall, and skunks are small. evolution is all in all..and atheism is nothing more than another faith. a rather absurd one at that. I didn't know genes showed evolutionary descent...guess you just take it on faith.tsmith
May 16, 2009
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First off, he stumbles into what Phillip Johnson called Berra’s Blunder referring to Darwinist Tim Berra’s book Evolution and the myth of creationism,1990, pg 117-119, where Berra writes “If you compare a 1953 and a 1954 Corvette, side by side, then a 1954 and a 1955 model, and so on, the descent with modification is overwhelmingly obvious. This is what paleontologists do with fossils, and the evidence is so solid and comprehensive that it cannot be denied by reasonable people.” As Johnson points out, Berra completely misses the point that similarities between cars are still the result of common design.
What Berra is offering is an argument from analogy similar to that of the watch on the heath by William Paley in his Natural Theology. As far as I am aware Johnson has not referred to 'Paley's blunder' so it is hard to see why Berra's argument should be singled out in this way. An argument from analogy is not a fallacy as such but it depends for its rhetorical force on the extent to which the two cases being compared are similar. What Berra is arguing is that, if we were shown all the Corvette variants, even if we knew nothing else about that particular model, we would infer that they were related. If we knew nothing else it might be difficult to decide whether they were designed simultaneously or sequentially but if we had some sort of chronological data then we could infer descent with modification. That the cars were designed is simply not relevant to Berra's point. The key is that even the design of things like cars changes over time in response to environmental pressures.
ID proponent and Darwinism critic, Cornelius G. Hunter points out the hidden metaphysical blunder Myers is making as well. On his Darwin’s God blogspot, Hunter writes “While there are several problems with the challenge, the disguised religion comes around the 1:15 mark, [in the Youtube video], where the criterion of homology is explained...
It is ironic that Hunter is quoted here in light of the previous lengthy discussion of the Law of Non-Contradiction (LNC). One of his theses appears to be that atheism is as much a religion as any other faith. This is like arguing that something can be both itself and its negation, that not collecting stamps is as much a hobby as collecting stamps. Religion involves belief in deities, supernatural domains, transcendental and spiritual realms amongst other things. Atheism is at least a total lack of belief in such things. In apparent violation of the LNC Hunter is arguing an equivalence between belief and its negation not-belief.
The idea is that God would not design according to a gratuitous pattern.” In other words, this yet another version of the old “God wouldn’t have done it this way” argument. It would be interesting to see Myers scientific explanation for how he knows what God would or would not do.
Perhaps I missed something in the video but I saw no attempt to argue against the existence of God on the grounds of imperfection in the world so this counter-argument is irrelevant to the case at hand.
Then there’s Myers’s implied Philosophical Naturalism, as he writes in the blog “The argument has long been highly asymmetric. Scientist find a gene, and what do they do? Figure out what it does, and dig into the databases to find its relatives within that organism or in other species. Creationists claim genes can’t be created without the intervention of a designer, and what do they do? Nothing.” In other words, Myers merely assumes evolution is the only explanation for homology, and his criticism of ID is that they aren’t busy digging into databases looking for those homologies, that is to say a naturalistic explanation for the data. Thus, according to Myers, doing “nothing”, means “not looking for only undirected, natural causes” as opposed to actively trying to understand the information content of the genetic code, tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about. All that, per Myers, is doing “nothing”.
...all of which neatly sidesteps the central challenge of the video which is for the Discovery Institute to identify just one gene for which there is clear evidence of design rather then evolutionary descent. In fact, the original post reads as a skilfull example of what I believe is known in stage magic as misdirection aimed at distracting attention from that point.Seversky
May 16, 2009
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I know I'm primarily just cheerleading lately, but that's a darn good post, and so was the one before it. :)hazel
May 16, 2009
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Mapou @ 24:
Ask yourself the following question: what would test an alien race’s assumption that a Corvette was designed?
Were I such an alien I'd look for evidence that a design process had been employed, evidence that is independent of the objects (Corvettes) in question. Certainly evidence of the existence of organisms capable both of the process of representation entailed in design, as well as the fabrication techniques required actualize those representations, would increase my confidence in my design hypothesis. Perhaps I'd look for a design center containing preliminary sketches, engineering plans, prototypes and so forth - representations of the object being designed - as well as evidence for the manufacturing and assembly processes required to form a Corvette. I'd look for these things because the only instance of design activity with which I am intimately familiar (the techniques we aliens employ) are best described as a distinct process, not simply an abstract quality of the objects designed. I'd therefore predict indicia of a similar processes, and hope to find them.Diffaxial
May 16, 2009
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Without it, there is absolutely no non-ideology based reason to ignore agency as a natural cause operating within natural law.
One reason to ignore agency is exemplified by the above responses to Myers' challenge. Some advocates of ID writing here argue that agency can build genes (proteins, etc.) de novo, such that we will sometimes fail to observe homologs due to the saltational impact of the injection of information. Yet above many argue that agency may also build genes utilizing "common design" in a manner yielding observations similar to those predicted by standard evolutionary scenarios. Because the postulate of agency is consistent with either observation, it generates no testable dispositive prediction, and is therefore scientifically empty. What would? We need a prediction arising from the postulate of agency that doesn't fail in the same way Myers' does - one that places ID at risk of disconfirmation. The empirical observation of natural processes yielding information processing systems in nature (particularly those amenable to description in purple prose) would certainly render ID superfluous, but is not really a formal test of ID, in that it would remain possible that intelligence operates in parallel with natural processes, producing similar results for particular purposes. Nor would the failure to articulate such processes within the current framework confirm the ID hypothesis - both theories may be wrong. Therefore we need a test that succeeds where Myers' fails.Diffaxial
May 16, 2009
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Diffaxial @22:
The consensus here is that PZ’s suggestion doesn’t, in fact, test ID because apparent homologies can be reconciled as “common design.” So, what would?
Ask yourself the following question: what would test an alien race's assumption that a Corvette was designed? It all comes down to probabilities, some say. The reasoning is that there must be a sufficiently low probability of natural causes to assume intelligent design. In this light, one could then say that the probabilty of a Corvette being the product of natural processes is so astronomically low that we can categorically conclude that it was intelligently designed. Some use the probability hypothesis to claim that the entire physical universe was designed. Personally, I am not altogether satisfied with the probability-based ID hypothesis because the exact probability is hard to calculate. In my opinion, ID needs at least one falsifiability criterion that completely eliminates the probability of naturalistic causes for certain objects and or phenomena. This is what Drs. Behe, Dembski and others have tried to formulate in their work (e.g. irreducible complexity, the conservation of information principle, etc.). It is up to you to decide whether or not to accept their conclusions.Mapou
May 16, 2009
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Diff, Something that actually adresses the molecular evidence of non-physically-dependant symbol system emerging in any material object whatsoever. That would, at least, be something to ponder. Without it, there is absolutely no non-ideology based reason to ignore agency as a natural cause operating within natural law.Upright BiPed
May 16, 2009
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The consensus here is that PZ's suggestion doesn't, in fact, test ID because apparent homologies can be reconciled as "common design." So, what would?Diffaxial
May 16, 2009
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Interestingly, his challenge is to find one single gene that is exclusively designed. Is this a subtle suggestion that ALL other genes are not? PZ, what evidence can YOU present that ALL genes do not have evidence of design?Bantay
May 16, 2009
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feebish (#3) wrote: "For all I know, people used to strap ropes around themselves and the car seat in the early days of the car, so maybe even seat belts have “homology” with prior car structures." No ropes, and no homology. While seat belts for cars were discussed earlier, the first car with seat belts as standard equipment was the 1958 Saab. This was a "gene" grafted from aircraft - SAAB means "Swedish Airplane Limited." They had seat belts in their aircraft and thought they were a good idea in cars - a very intelligent design.PaulBurnett
May 16, 2009
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I wonder if this one might be relevant: http://mednews.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/11349.html Although I agree with DonaldM and many of the commenters that the challenge is a false one, it may also be interesting to find a gene that meets the challenge...TCS
May 16, 2009
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"Another great irony is that it now seems PZ is trying to falsify ID — which some evos like to claim can’t be falsified." Has PZ given the store away inadvertently? Vividvividbleau
May 16, 2009
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"So, has Myers indeed stumbled upon a true significant challenge for ID? Or, has he simply stumbled, as he so often does, over his own misconceptions and metaphysics? I vote for the latter."
I as well.
"In other words, homolgy doesn’t necessarily imply evolution, or exclude design. In his challenge, Myers is relying on the same sort of blunder, as he is assuming that any homology automatically eliminates design. My challenge back to him would be to show scientifically why that is the case."
It's merely an assumtion on his part. Homologies imply both common descent AND common common design(er(s)). But the assertion that design requires the introduction of a new protein is fallacious, and in a nutshell, here is why. The automobile (and/or TV, computer, appliance et al) analog to biologic design is valid in some ways, but not in others, and the analogous exception I will detail here is used by the evo crowd to discredit ID, but is without merit. While both entail common elements, the assertion that new proteins would of necessity follow design intervention, is based on an assumption that design activity conforms to the 'poof' scenario, i.e. "let there be'. While that may be true at certain point in time, incremental design alterations show evidence of using what is there, but with modification. I even accept exaptation on occasion, but due in most cases to fortuitous opportunism, rather than to contingency, or that change was needed, so it eventuality happened via natural selection. In sum, if true speciation (not alopatric or symatric speciation), as well as the addition of complex organs has occurred via intervention, it could well be by the method of 'moving the furniture', rather than poofing in new genes. Remember, that when adding seat belts or GPS devices to a car we have the option of bringing them in from another workbench, which is not necessarily an option with biologic progressions. Bottom line: Homologies do not prove naturalistic evolution, nor does design require non homologous additions.LeeBowman
May 16, 2009
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feebish,
I don’t know. It looks like kind of an echo chamber over there, where dissent is quickly pounced on. I don’t think someone like Joseph would last long there without being banned. Maybe he is already banned there.
I think you're probably right. It looks like they have no concept of free and open discussion over there, unfortunately.herb
May 16, 2009
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6 herb 05/16/2009 10:37 am I’d pay money to see Joseph wade in over there and set a few people straight re: nested hierarchies. ^-^ I don't know. It looks like kind of an echo chamber over there, where dissent is quickly pounced on. I don't think someone like Joseph would last long there without being banned. Maybe he is already banned there.feebish
May 16, 2009
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vjtorley, I don't think your link provides for the two orphan genes in the bacterial flagellum.bFast
May 16, 2009
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Notice how quickly P.Z takes transgenic organisms off the table. Why can't these serve as postive controls? We know it is possible for genes to be moved from one organism to another by design. Why isn't that evidence of intelligent design? We already know the mechanisms by which a desinger could do this. Arrghthe wonderer
May 16, 2009
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Donald M suggests that Paul Myers has stumbled over his own feet, which is both obvious and expected. The question of gene homologies is certainly relevant to the study of biology, but it has nothing whatsoever to do actual causes (which is the answer he wishes it would represent). It’s the very presence of the sequence itself that is the issue. There is absolutely nothing in the field of physics (or biology) that says matter should organize itself into energy metabolizing structures that begin recording their existence in a (randomly emergent) digitally encoded language based on a (randomly emergent) symbol system that uses a code convention (which is not contingent on physical laws) as a means to communicate vital information and meaning between discrete physical objects within the structure. It’s the very existence of recorded language, information, and meaning that is the real reason for such meaningless challenges. After all, a dramatic challenge is far more profitable than dealing with the actual evidence.Upright BiPed
May 16, 2009
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* naturalistic evolution that is.Green
May 16, 2009
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N.b. One needs to calculate the probability that these genes would evolve (and their proteins assemble into nanomachines) in order to determine whether evolution is a plausible explanation of homology.Green
May 16, 2009
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DonaldM:
In other words, homolgy doesn’t necessarity imply evolution, or exclude design. In his challenge, Myers is relying on the same sort of blunder, as he is assuming that any homology automatically eliminates design. My challenge back to him would be to show scientifically why that is the case.
Exactly. PZ Myers is completely missing the point here. Sequence homology can tell you nothing about how a system could have evolved by numerous, successive, slight modifications. By assuming that sequence homology implies (naturalistic) evolution, PZ Myers is assuming what he's trying to prove. It's a completely circular argument.Green
May 16, 2009
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It looks to me like they are saying that looking at cars you could see evidence of design The classic example is is Professor John McDonald's attempt to show the evolution of the mousetrap. Apparently he is trying to disprove the existence of James Henry Atkinson tribune7
May 16, 2009
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Creationists claim genes can’t be created without the intervention of a designer, and what do they do? Nothing.” A extraordinarily ironic statement considering that Mendel was a creationist. Here is a very interesting link with regard to Mendel: Mendel's Opposition to Evolution and to Darwin from Oxford Journals "Journal of Heredity" Another great irony is that it now seems PZ is trying to falsify ID -- which some evos like to claim can't be falsified.tribune7
May 16, 2009
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feebish,
They also claim that any gene homologies will fall into a so-called “nested heirarchy” that, say, seat belts won’t fall into. But, so far as I can tell, Joseph is teh resident expert on nested heirarchy, and he assures that evolution does not produce them.
I'd pay money to see Joseph wade in over there and set a few people straight re: nested hierarchies. ^-^ Doesn't Meyers also claim to dabble in marine biology as well? Looks like a perfect matchup.herb
May 16, 2009
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feebish
Someone find those two orphan genes!
Um, are these the ones? yab3 and yab4? See http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1899503 Please scroll down to the section on "Gene evolution rate" and also the Discussion. I won't reproduce it here, since it's rather long, and I'm not qualified to assess it, as I'm not a scientist.vjtorley
May 16, 2009
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Just saw bfast's comment. Very cool indeed. Someone find those two orphan genes!feebish
May 16, 2009
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I looked at that Pharyngula post and the comments. Wow, what a place THAT is. It looks to me like they are saying that looking at cars you could see evidence of design that they claim you don't see in biological evolution. For instance, some of the commenters mentioned the seat belt, or air bags, which they claim appeared out of nowhere in the car "fossil record." So it may be that they are not saying that the homology is proof of evolution, but that something appearing out of nowhere is evidence of design, and they want to see evidence of design. So I think ID should take up the challenge, and show them the seat belt gene. They also claim that any gene homologies will fall into a so-called "nested heirarchy" that, say, seat belts won't fall into. But, so far as I can tell, Joseph is teh resident expert on nested heirarchy, and he assures that evolution does not produce them. For all I know, people used to strap ropes around themselves and the car seat in the early days of the car, so maybe even seat belts have "homology" with prior car structures.feebish
May 16, 2009
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Ok, lets take on the challenge head-on. My understanding is that there are about 50 recognized orphan genes in the human genome. The only thing needed to prove that these meet his requirements is if any of them have significant function. Further, I understand that there are two orphan genes in the flagellum. Both of these should fully meet his challenge. What's the problem here. I know he is the evil PZ Myers, I know he presents his challenge in a very mocking way. But it would be painfully cool if we could respond to his challenge within a week. So what are the names of the two orphan genes that make up the bacterial flagellum?bFast
May 16, 2009
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Have you got any examples of: "actively trying to understand the information content of the genetic code, tracing the informational pathways and/or trying to determine when, where and how the information was imparted into the system and how an intelligence may have been involved to bring this about."Mark Frank
May 16, 2009
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