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RDFish Cannot Count to Three

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In a prior post RDFish starts off with a promisingly cogent observation:

We’re not arguing about “evolutionary adaptation”, but rather about the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms. Of course large populations and crossovers can help a bit with local optima, but saying these things will “tend to avoid” them is wishful thinking – there is just so much that can be assembled that way, which is why GAs come up with optimizations and not novel mechanisms. The important point, though, is not to argue about this in the abstract, because there is no way to demonstrate (yet) whether or not the combinatorial resources were sufficient or not.

Leading Mapou to respond:

Wow. RDFish is moving dangerously close to accepting the designer hypothesis (i.e., life requires consciousness)

To which RDFish responds indignantly:

HUH? Why in the world would you say that – I haven’t moved one iota in that direction, of course, because there isn’t a shred of evidence for it. I deny that evolutionary theory accounts for biological complexity, but that doesn’t lend any credence whatsoever to the notion that some conscious being thought up designs for all us creatures and built us somehow!

I am always amazed when one of our opponents reveals that the metaphysical blinders they are wearing restrict their vision to such a degree that they cannot see the blatantly obvious implications of their own conclusions.

Let’s lay it out step by step.

  1. Given our current understanding of causation, there are three and only three possibilities regarding the provenance of “highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms.” The first two possibilities, which in combination are often referred to as “natural causes,” are law and chance, including a combination of the two.  The third possibility, Aristotle’s tertium quid, is the act of an intelligent agent.*

 

  1. The project of modern evolutionary theory is to demonstrate that the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms can be reduced to purely natural causes.

 

  1. The project of intelligent design is to demonstrate that intelligent agency is a better explanation for the highly intricate, multi-component mechanisms we observe in organisms.

 

  1. Modern evolutionary theory and ID are playing a zero sum game. If modern evolutionary theory is correct about the sufficiency of natural causes to account for the observations, ID would be falsified.  If ID is correct about the insufficiency of natural causes to account for the observations, that aspect of modern evolutionary theory would be falsified.

 

  1. In the comment above, RDFish denies that evolutionary theory currently accounts for biological complexity.

 

  1. Other things being equal, RDFish’s observation – to the extent it is true – undermines the standing of modern evolutionary theory.

 

  1. Since we are playing a zero sum game, it follows that Mapou is generally correct; RDFish’s observation supports a design approach to the extent it undermines a non-design approach to origins, even if RDFish himself does not understand it.

RDfish again:  “I deny that evolutionary theory accounts for biological complexity, but that doesn’t lend any credence whatsoever to the notion that some conscious being thought up designs for all us creatures and built us somehow!”

Uh, Fish, since it is one or the other, denying that one can explain the observations does tend to lend credence to the other (which is not to say that it establishes it, but it does tend in that direction).

 

__________

*There may, of course, be an unknown quartium quid (a fourth causal force in addition to law, chance and agency) that has escaped detection from the time of Aristotle to this moment.  That is why I qualify with “given our current understanding of causation.”  We do not know what we do not know, but if we must choose based on what we do know, there are only three choices.

Comments
Hi Anonymous Apologist,
RDF: What objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all intelligent agents have in common?
Thank you for your response! NOTE: Whereas Barry and StephenB are incapable of engaging the debate, you have stepped forward in good faith! Barry and StephenB: Take note! This is how an ID proponent ought to respond. AA here is not dodging, not tossing out insults - just trying to reason through the issues. Now then:
1) All intelligent agents, through their own power, can manipulate things (matter) into precise and/or complex abstractions.
OK then. This would eliminate all non-human animals (like beavers, for example) as intelligent agents, contrary to what most folks (like StephenB) say.
2) All intelligent agents can violate the laws of nature of a particular world, where a law of nature is defined in the Humean sense of a regularity of nature that would not be changed without such intervention.
I don't understand what laws of nature - in any sense - you believe are supposed to be violated by all intelligent agents. But similar to #1, you're saying that intelligent agents produce results that are not seen via anything else, right?
3) Last one: If you see precise and complex, but unnecessary, symmetry, that is the sign of an intelligent agent.
So all intelligent agents can produce precise and complex and unnecessary symmetry, ok. If these are all of the observable characteristics and traits that all intelligent agents share, then clearly ID cannot attribute most of the charcteristics commonly associated with "intelligence" to the cause of living things. For example, you don't seem to think that all intelligent agents are conscious, have free will, can learn new skills, can solve novel problems in math and logic, can use natural language to express arbitrary ideas, and so on. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 10, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
I am afraid that your position is hopelessly incoherent. We cannot make any progress as long as you categorize lightning bolts, earthquakes, tornadoes, chemical reactions, and physical laws as different kinds of causes and also as the same kind of cause (natural).
I am very happy to leave this to the fair reader. You ignored my examples of categorization that explain your confusion, just as Zachriel has. But since you know you can't actually address my arguments, you (as always) find some distraction to hide behind rather than engage the debate.
An intelligent agent is one that arranges matter for a purpose.
And since there is no objective method for detecting "purpose" (rather than, say, "complex specified information"), this particular attempt to provide a usable definition of "intelligence" in the context of ID fails. But don't feel bad - everybody else's attempts fail too. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 10, 2015
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Hi Barry Arrington,
RDFish uses his favorite Darwinian Debating Device, which is No. 18, the “You’re Too Stupid to Understand Why I’m Smarter than You” Dismissal.
I'm not sure that you're too stupid to understand that I'm smarter than you. In fact, it appears that you do realize that you don't stand a chance debating me on these issues; that would explain why, instead of engaging my arguments, you just post these childish insults. You have never even attempted to answer the one simple question I have asked of you over and over again: What objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all intelligent agents have in common? You're good at bluster and bullying, but not so much at debate. Actually, you really aren't that good at bluster either. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 10, 2015
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Mr. Fish, what objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all natural causes have in common?Mung
December 10, 2015
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Zachriel:
Natural, per the usual definition, means not made or caused by humankind.
That is incorrect. Natural, per the usual definition means "existing in or produced by nature". Buy a dictionary Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 10, 2015
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RDFish: I have a feeling you’re just pretending not to understand Good one Mr. Fish!Mung
December 10, 2015
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RDFish: Natural: “not artificial; not the result of human action”. This definition is the normal meaning of the word, and it is perfectly clear. Humans eating is not natural. Got it. Humans are not natural. Anything produced by humans is not natural. Every product of every other organism on the planet is natural except the products of human organisms. Aren't humans special.Mung
December 10, 2015
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Barry
RDFish’s desperation is revealed by the fact that he simply refuses to accept SB’s definition of intelligence and in bad faith substitutes his own (falsely attributing it to SB) in an attempt to give the false impression that SB’s argument is circular.
Barry, thanks for bringing that up. Yes, this is RD's perennial objection, and yes, he did rewrite my definition in order to make it appear circular (the same definition he says that no one ever offers). Even at that, he should know better on general principles. An argument based on circular definitions cannot be falsified. Yet ID, using my definition, is obviously falsifiable. And yes, I knew where he was going. We have been there before.StephenB
December 10, 2015
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StephenB: They cannot be both the same kind of thing and also a different kind of thing. Of course they can. That's because kind refers to categorization. kind, a group of people or things having similar characteristics. We can often group the same objects many different ways. More particularly, we might have groups within groups. Natural, per the usual definition, means not made or caused by humankind. But within the group of natural causes, we can have causes such as gravity, electricity, or mechanical force. What causes the Earth to revolve around the sun? Gravity, a kind of natural causation.Zachriel
December 10, 2015
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Shut up RDFish:
If that is the definition that SB would like to use, that’s just fine with me. I simply point out that if he chooses to use that definition, there can be no emprically-based inference to intelligence in the context of ID.
That isn't an argument. We can and do empirically test for purpose. We do so by the amount of work and/ or counterflow present.
Anything not the result of human action is natural.
That is incorrect and demonstrates ignorance over what is and isn't an artifact. Crows use tools so crows can create artifacts. Beaver dams and lodges are also artifacts. Termite mounds and bee hives are also artifacts.
I simply point out that no matter what definition you choose, the central claim of ID is not a scientifically supportable claim.
And we will continue to simply point out that your ignorance and scientific illiteracy are not arguments. Cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 10, 2015
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Hi RD, I am afraid that your position is hopelessly incoherent. We cannot make any progress as long as you categorize lightning bolts, earthquakes, tornadoes, chemical reactions, and physical laws as different kinds of causes and also as the same kind of cause (natural). They cannot be both the same kind of thing and also a different kind of thing. They can be different variations of the same kind, but they cannot be both of the same kind and of a different kind. This is basic logic. I can't imagine why you would think you can sell that idea to anyone.
And what, exactly, makes them (intelligent causes) the same? Can you please tell me, instead of giving examples?
They are of the same kind by virtue of the definition, of course. An intelligent agent is one that arranges matter for a purpose. Accordingly, a human who designs a building and a beaver who designs a dam are the same kind of cause. That is why I explained that a beaver does not need to understand the purpose of his efforts. Thus, the beaver and the human are different variations of the same kind of cause. If I were to say that they are both the same kind of cause and a different kind of cause, my position would be as incoherent as yours. Meanwhile, I am still hoping that you will defend your dubious notion that science can demonstrate the existence of natural causes. Your entire argument depends on that claim, and yet you are reticent to address it. Also, you have not yet informed us about which patterns of arranged matter you can detect in a light beam. Also, you have not yet answered.....well, let's leave it there for now. If I posted a list of all my unanswered challenges, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.StephenB
December 10, 2015
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RDFish
Sorry Barry, but you still don’t understand the discussion.
RDFish uses his favorite Darwinian Debating Device, which is No. 18, the “You’re Too Stupid to Understand Why I’m Smarter than You” Dismissal. Poor guy. In this thread he has been made to look alternatively foolish and dishonest (he is in fact both). And he lashes out with taunts. It's OK Fish. We are here for you. You are, in fact, one of our most valuable resources at UD. Thanks for making our side look so reasonable in juxtaposition with your rants. For those of you who are keeping score in the SB v. Fish debate, I will put it this way. It reminds me of the 1940 NFL championship game in which the Chicago Bears beat the Washington Redskins 73-0. SB by a mile. Barry Arrington
December 10, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
SB: So, they are same kind of cause—a natural cause? RDF: But there are differences among them. I really don’t know how to make that any more clear. SB: So, they are different kinds of causes?
I have a feeling you're just pretending not to understand, but I'm always willing to respond no matter how stupid your questions. Here you go: Imagine a Ford, a Chevy, and a Buick. They are all the same kind of vehicles - they are all passenger cars. But they are different kinds of vehicles too - they are different kinds of passenger cars. Imagine an ant, a bee, and a flea. They are all the same kind of animals - they are all insects. But they are different kinds of animals too - they are different sorts of insects. Imagine a tornado, an earthquake, and a rainstorm. They are all the same kind of causes - they are all natural causes. But they are different kinds of causes too - they are different sorts of natural causes. Are you beginning to get the idea?
You just said above that they are all natural causes, which would make them the same kind of cause.
They would all be natural causes, yes. But they are different kinds of natural causes.
If they are all natural, then they are of the same kind.
Well, they are all natural causes, yes. But they are different kinds of natural causes.
So, I ask you once again: Are earthquakes, tornadoes, rainstorms, chemical reactions, physical actions all different kinds of causes, or are they all the same kind of cause—a natural cause?
They are all natural causes, by virtue of the fact that none are (normally) the result of human action. But they are still all different kinds of causes, for obvious reasons.
You seem to be having problems with this, so let me try to help you out by using a parallel example with ID. A beaver building a dam, like a human designing a building, is the same kind of cause–an intelligent cause.
And what, exactly, makes them the same? Can you please tell me, instead of giving examples? That's all I'm asking for, but no matter how much I ask, you can never answer.
Naturally, there are differences within this single category. For one thing, the beaver is not really conscious of his purpose, whereas the human is.
Yes, that's probably true (but assessing the nature and extent of animal consciousness is difficult of course, because they can't talk).
Nevertheless, they are the same kind of cause–an intelligent cause. They arrange matter for a purpose.
How do you know what the beaver's purpose is if the beaver doesn't? I don't think you can say what the purpose of something is unless somebody who has consciously thought about it does something for a purpose. Otherwise, who can say there is a purpose involved? The beaver builds its dam, and the cloud drops its rain. You decide the beaver has a purpose but not the cloud, but you can't say why.
I am asking you, once again, to provide a similarly coherent answer to my question about natural causes. It is not coherent to say that they that these events are the same kind of cause and are also of a different kind.
Yes of course it is perfectly coherent! Anything not the result of human action is natural. But obviously that is a very broad category of things, and among that class are inummerable differences. I think you're making this a lot more complicated than it is.
Can science demonstrate the existence of ANY kind of cause, such as a natural cause?
I've answered this too many times. I say yes; if you disagree, then you are simply denying the possibility of scientific knowledge - which you have already conceded you believe in, and call "obvious".
RDF: Could it be you are talking about something like complex specified information? I think that is probably what you are talking about. If so, I will agree with you, arguendo, that complex specified information is a pattern of matter that is objectively detectable. If you mean something different than complex specified information, please explain the difference. SB: It would be broader than CSI, but CSI would clearly be a subset.
Please answer the question. Is there some reason you refuse to explain what the exact relation between "matter arranged for a purpose" and CSI? Is it because you are making all this up as you go along?
Well, let’s experiment with it a little bit:
Yes, apparently you are making this up as you go along.
Proposition I: The CSI we observe in a written paragraph is best explained by someone who already has the causal power to produce the intended result
The only information here is that you say "someone" rather than "something". (Saying "one" typically refers to a human being). Otherwise, all this says is "CSI is produced by that which can produce CSI", which says nothing at all.
I like proposition I
Yes, that makes perfect sense: Proposition I is a perfectly vacuous statement - just like ID. The CSI in biology is best explained by that which can create CSI". Brilliant. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 9, 2015
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What objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all intelligent agents have in common? Here are some answers after a short period of thought. Note that these answers make no appeal to mental events and are empirically detectable. 1) All intelligent agents, through their own power, can manipulate things (matter) into precise and/or complex abstractions. Example 1: If you see one stick on the ground, then one meter to the left of that there are two sticks together (only one centimeter apart each), then one meter to the left of that there are three sticks together (only one centimeter apart each), then five sticks, and seven, and so on and so forth for the next dozen prime numbers. This is displaying an abstraction (prime numbers) into matter and is a sure sign of an intelligent agent and could be done by humans, aliens, or gods. Example 2: Arranging rocks to form a paragraph in English (abstraction: language). Sure sign of an intelligent agent. 2) All intelligent agents can violate the laws of nature of a particular world, where a law of nature is defined in the Humean sense of a regularity of nature that would not be changed without such intervention. Example: If, somehow, a whole ton of scrabble letters were transported back in time and left on the ground before any humans came on the scene, it would be a law of nature (in the Humean sense) that wind and natural forces would never form those letters into an English paragraph. But if they suddenly did form into an English paragraph, and thus violated the law of nature, that is the sign of an intelligent agent. 3) Last one: If you see precise and complex, but unnecessary, symmetry, that is the sign of an intelligent agent. Example: If you had a thousand trees in a straight line all of which were exactly one meter apart, that is the type of unnecessary but complex symmetry that is the sign of an intelligent agent. And note that if a thousand stars arranged themselves into a straight line in the sky with exact distances apart (from our view), we would know that was the sign of an intelligent agent.Anonymous Apologist
December 9, 2015
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SB: So, which is it? Are these acts of nature the same kind of cause or are they all different kinds of causes? Which is it?
Hmmm, you seem to have a hard time grasping this. Lightning bolts, tornados, and earthquakes are all natural causes because none are the product of human action.
So, they are same kind of cause—a natural cause?
But there are differences among them. I really don’t know how to make that any more clear.
So, they are different kinds of causes? You just said above that they are all natural causes, which would make them the same kind of cause. If they are all natural, then they are of the same kind. So, I ask you once again: Are earthquakes, tornadoes, rainstorms, chemical reactions, physical actions all different kinds of causes, or are they all the same kind of cause—a natural cause? You seem to be having problems with this, so let me try to help you out by using a parallel example with ID. A beaver building a dam, like a human designing a building, is the same kind of cause--an intelligent cause. Naturally, there are differences within this single category. For one thing, the beaver is not really conscious of his purpose, whereas the human is. Nevertheless, they are the same kind of cause--an intelligent cause. They arrange matter for a purpose. I am asking you, once again, to provide a similarly coherent answer to my question about natural causes. It is not coherent to say that they that these events are the same kind of cause and are also of a different kind. SB: Can science demonstrate the existence of ANY kind of cause, such as a natural cause?
I have already explained that while we can scientifically ascertain many things (the speed of light in my example), we cannot scientifically ascertain that human intelligence somehow uses anything but the same lawlike regularities we observe to underlie all other phenomena.
Non-responsive. Question not answered. Please reread the question. Better yet, I will repeat it. Can science demonstrate the existence of ANY kind of cause, such as a natural cause?
That is because you simply skipped over my response, not because I didn’t respond. Here it is again for you:
No, I didn’t skip over it. You did not answer. Can science demonstrate the existence of any kind of cause, such as a natural cause?
Could it be you are talking about something like complex specified information? I think that is probably what you are talking about. If so, I will agree with you, arguendo, that complex specified information is a pattern of matter that is objectively detectable. If you mean something different than complex specified information, please explain the difference.
It would be broader than CSI, but CSI would clearly be a subset.
ID holds that the complex specified information we observe in biological systems is best explained by “intelligent agency”. RDF: Really? What does “intelligent agency” mean? SB: It means “something able to produce complex specified information”. I trust you see why that explanation isn’t helpful.
Well, let’s experiment with it a little bit: Proposition I: The CSI we observe in a written paragraph is best explained by someone who already has the causal power to produce the intended result Proposition II: The CSI we observe in a written paragraph is best explained by a chance process whose causal power is unknown and which produces an unintended result by accident. Proposition I seems more reasonable to me. Let's try it another way: Proposition I The design in your dream house is best explained by the capacity of someone who knows how to design and build a house. Proposition II The design in your dream house is best explained by the capacities of wind, air, sand, erosion, and time. I like proposition I Or, let's try it yet another way. Proposition I Arranged matter needs an arranger. Proposition II Arranged matter does not need an arranger. I like proposition IStephenB
December 9, 2015
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Hi Barry Arrington,
RDFish’s desperation is revealed by the fact that he simply refuses to accept SB’s definition of intelligence and in bad faith substitutes his own (falsely attributing it to SB) in an attempt to give the false impression that SB’s argument is circular.
Sorry Barry, but you still don't understand the discussion. SB gave me a definition of intelligence that was different from everyone else's here: that which can arrange matter for a purpose. If that is the definition that SB would like to use, that's just fine with me. I simply point out that if he chooses to use that definition, there can be no emprically-based inference to intelligence in the context of ID. Now, I think what SB means by "matter arranged for a purpose" is actually Complex Specified Information. Now, that's fine too, because I agree arguendo that CSI is objectively detectable. But then I point out that if he chooses to use that definition, the conclusion of ID is completely vacuous:
ID holds that the complex specified information we observe in biological systems is best explained by something able to produce complex specified information.
I'll accept anyone's definitions for "intelligence" of course! I simply point out that no matter what definition you choose, the central claim of ID is not a scientifically supportable claim. It only sort of sounds science-y when you leave the meaning of the term "intelligent agent" completely ambiguous, so people think it means whatever they want, and you don't ask yourself why any particular mental attributes could be inferred. By the way, you never did answer my question: What objectively observable characteristics or abilities do all intelligent agents have in common? Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 9, 2015
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RDFish's desperation is revealed by the fact that he simply refuses to accept SB's definition of intelligence and in bad faith substitutes his own (falsely attributing it to SB) in an attempt to give the false impression that SB's argument is circular.Barry Arrington
December 9, 2015
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Really? What does “intelligent agency” mean?
It means something that transcends purely materialistic processes, ie something that can manipulate nature for a purpose. This has been pointed out to you many times and each time you ignore it. Do you think any onlookers ignore it also? Do you think that your willful ignorance is winning any points in their minds? Doesn't it tell you something that the ONLY person convinced by your arguments is you? cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 9, 2015
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Hi RDFish:
Either EXPLAIN HOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO OBJECTIVELY DETERMINE PURPOSEFULLY ARRANGED MATTER or admit we can’t.
We do that all of the time- daily even. We look for signs of work and/ or counterflow. If we see a system of several different components that together have a function that is separate from those components we infer it was via some plan, ie it is a purposeful arrangement of matter. cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 9, 2015
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Hi RDFish:
Natural: “not artificial; not the result of human action”. This definition is the normal meaning of the word, and it is perfectly clear.
Artificial doesn't necessarily mean "made by humans". "Natural" in the context of ID and science means "exists in nature" or "produced by nature". In other words once again you prove to be a deceptive little twerp. cheers, Virgil CainVirgil Cain
December 9, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
To call these events natural causes is to say that they are the same kind of cause, having the same thing in common–they come from nature, and are not the product of intellectual causation.
I have repeatedly explained exactly what definition I was using for the word "natural". The dictionary defintion I have been using is this: Natural: "not artificial; not the result of human action". This definition is the normal meaning of the word, and it is perfectly clear.
So, which is it? Are these acts of nature the same kind of cause or are they all different kinds of causes? Which is it?
Both a tornado and a rainstorm are natural causes, but they differ in many ways. The first is a funnel-shaped pattern of wind, while the second is water precipitating from clouds.
That would include lightning bolts, tornadoes, earthquakes, and other acts of nature–all these acts as the same kind of cause, a natural cause.
Yes, all natural causes.
Yet, you have also said that these acts are all different kinds of causes.
Yes of course. A lightning bolt is an arc of electricity, which differs greatly from a tornado, which as I've mentioned is a funnel-shaped pattern of wind.
So are they all the same kind of cause–a natural cause, or are they all different kinds of causes?
Hmmm, you seem to have a hard time grasping this. Lightning bolts, tornados, and earthquakes are all natural causes because none are the product of human action. But there are differences among them. I really don't know how to make that any more clear.
SB: Can science demonstrate the existence of ANY kind of cause, such as a natural cause? RDF: I have already explained that while we can scientifically ascertain many things (the speed of light in my example), we cannot scientifically ascertain that human intelligence somehow uses anything but the same lawlike regularities we observe to underlie all other phenomena. SB: Non-responsive. Question not answered. Please reread the question.
That is because you simply skipped over my response, not because I didn't respond. Here it is again for you:
RDF: I have also explained that if you would like to call into question the possibility of knowledge, the empirical method and science itself, or causality, then just say so and we don’t have to continue.
Again, then: If you would like to question whether science is capable of determining that cigarettes cause lung cancer, or that molecular scattering of short wavelength light causes the sky to be blue, or that germs cause disease, or any other sort of causal relation that scientific research has demonstrated, then simply say so and we needn't continue the conversation. Don't ask me again.
I apprehend it as something that exists outside of my mind; I do not subjectively make it up as if it existed as a pattern.
Could it be you are talking about something like complex specified information? I think that is probably what you are talking about. If so, I will agree with you, arguendo, that complex specified information is a pattern of matter that is objectively detectable. If you mean something different than complex specified information, please explain the difference. Assuming there is no difference, let's see where we are: SB: ID holds that the complex specified information we observe in biological systems is best explained by "intelligent agency". RDF: Really? What does "intelligent agency" mean? SB: It means "something able to produce complex specified information". I trust you see why that explanation isn't helpful. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 9, 2015
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SB: You are saying that a lighting bolt is a different kind of cause than a tornado. Right? That means, of course, that there would be no such thing as a unifying category of natural causes to describe tornadoes, lightning bolts, or any other act of nature.
People can categorize causes all sorts of ways, StephenB.
Non-responsive. Question not answered. To call these events natural causes is to say that they are the same kind of cause, having the same thing in common--they come from nature, and are not the product of intellectual causation. So, which is it? Are these acts of nature the same kind of cause or are they all different kinds of causes? Which is it?
The category of “natural causes”, as I’ve repeated many times here, is defined as “not involving human action”. This is not mysterious.
That would include lightning bolts, tornadoes, earthquakes, and other acts of nature--all these acts as the same kind of cause, a natural cause. Yet, you have also said that these acts are all different kinds of causes. So are they all the same kind of cause--a natural cause, or are they all different kinds of causes? SB: Can science demonstrate the existence of ANY kind of cause, such as a natural cause?
I have already explained that while we can scientifically ascertain many things (the speed of light in my example), we cannot scientifically ascertain that human intelligence somehow uses anything but the same lawlike regularities we observe to underlie all other phenomena.
. Non-responsive. Question not answered. Please reread the question. SB: Purposefully arranged matter is an objective criterion. It often manifests itself as a detectable pattern. Observable patterns are objective.
Simply saying that it is objective doesn’t make it so. You have to explain how we can objectively ascertain “purposefully arranged matter”.
When I observe the purposefully arranged matter in a written paragraph or in a sand castle, I am detecting purposefully arranged matter. It is objective. I apprehend it as something that exists outside of my mind; I do not subjectively make it up as if it existed as a pattern. SB: So what? What does (light traveling at 100mph) that have to do with objectively observable patterns?
blockquote This is an example of something that we can objectively ascertain, so that independent researchers can all agree about something.
What pattern do you think you ascertain in a light beam? Describe the pattern as if you were relating it to someone is doing research. (Hint: There is no discernable pattern of matter arranged for a purpose in a light beam).
Science is filled with innummerable examples – the existence of starfish, the mass of the moon, the behavior of electrons in a magnetic field, and so on.
Same question. What are the material patterns that you think you observed. Describe them.
If someone said that rainclouds dump water on cornfields for the purpose of irrigating the corn, or that the sun shines on Earth for the purpose of warming our planet and providing energy, we could not make any objective observations or perform any experiments in order to show they were right or wrong.
SB: What does (dumping water on cornfields) have to do with objectively observable patterns?
This shows that what you are providing as an objective criterion is not objective, because different people would have different answers to these questions, and there are no observations nor experiments that could resolve the issue.
Non-responsive. Question not answered. You are twisting yourself into a pretzel. I asked you to tell me what dumping water on cornfields has to do with objectively observable patters.
Please don’t drag this out: Either EXPLAIN HOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO OBJECTIVELY DETERMINE PURPOSEFULLY ARRANGED MATTER or admit we can’t
. Why do you carry on as if this is some kind of challenge. I just discerned purposefully arranged matter in the paragraph that you wrote. So it is with the arranged matter in Mount Rushmore. So it is with the arranged matter in an ancient hunter's spear. Those are all objectively observed patterns of matter arranged for a purpose.StephenB
December 9, 2015
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RDFish: The category of “natural causes”, as I’ve repeated many times here, is defined as “not involving human action”. This is not mysterious. So when a fish eats, it's due to natural causes, but when a Mr. RDFish eats, that's not due to natural causes.Mung
December 9, 2015
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RDFish: With regard to the truth of the claim that intelligent behaviors require an ontologically distinct cause, this is simply the metaphysical claim of dualism, which cannot be put to empirical test. Ontologically distinct from what?Mung
December 9, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
You are saying that a lighting bold is a different kind of cause than a tornado. Right? That means, of course, that there would be no such thing as a unifying category of natural causes to describe tornadoes, lightning bolts, or any other act of nature.
People can categorize causes all sorts of ways, StephenB. "All causes that involve water", or "all causes that involve reptiles", or "all causes that involve electricity", and so on. What's your point?
To call them natural causes, after all, is to say that they are the same kind of cause.
The category of "natural causes", as I've repeated many times here, is defined as "not involving human action". This is not mysterious.
So, if they are all different kinds of causes, they cannot also be natural causes. Right?
Wrong, obviously. Rain coming from a cloud does not (usually) involve human action. That would mean it is both (1) a natural cause, and (2) different from a tornado or a snake, etc.
Can science demonstrate the existence of ANY kind of cause, such as a natural cause?
I have already explained that while we can scientifically ascertain many things (the speed of light in my example), we cannot scientifically ascertain that human intelligence somehow uses anything but the same lawlike regularities we observe to underlie all other phenomena. I have also explained that if you would like to call into question the possibility of knowledge, the empirical method and science itself, or causality, then just say so and we don't have to continue.
I didn’t ignore it. Purposefully arranged matter is an objective criterion. It often manifests itself as a detectable pattern. Observable patterns are objective.
Simply saying that it is objective doesn't make it so. You have to explain how we can objectively ascertain "purposefully arranged matter".
RDF: If someone said that light travels at 100mph, we could all make objective observations and perform experiments and clearly agree that we have empirical observations that the person was wrong. SB: So what? What does that have to do with objectively observable patterns?
This is an example of something that we can objectively ascertain, so that independent researchers can all agree about something. Science is filled with innummerable examples - the existence of starfish, the mass of the moon, the behavior of electrons in a magnetic field, and so on.
RDF: If someone said that rainclouds dump water on cornfields for the purpose of irrigating the corn, or that the sun shines on Earth for the purpose of warming our planet and providing energy, we could not make any objective observations or perform any experiments in order to show they were right or wrong. SB: So what? What does that have to do with objectively observable patterns?
This shows that what you are providing as an objective criterion is not objective, because different people would have different answers to these questions, and there are no observations nor experiments that could resolve the issue. Please don't drag this out: Either EXPLAIN HOW IT IS POSSIBLE TO OBJECTIVELY DETERMINE PURPOSEFULLY ARRANGED MATTER or admit we can't. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 9, 2015
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RDFish
You define “intelligent agency” as “that which arranges matter for a purpose”. But you ignored that I emphasized objectively observable in my question.
I didn't ignore it. Purposefully arranged matter is an objective criterion. It often manifests itself as a detectable pattern. Observable patterns are objective.
If someone said that light travels at 100mph, we could all make objective observations and perform experiments and clearly agree that we have empirical observations that the person was wrong.
So what? What does that have to do with objectively observable patterns?
If someone said that rainclouds dump water on cornfields for the purpose of irrigating the corn, or that the sun shines on Earth for the purpose of warming our planet and providing energy, we could not make any objective observations or perform any experiments in order to show they were right or wrong.
So what? What does that have to do with objectively observable patterns?StephenB
December 9, 2015
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RDFish
Every kind of cause is different.
Excellent! So we are just about finished. Our discussion will soon come to an end.
Snakes are different from bees which are different from tornados which are different from humans which are different from beavers which are different from lightning bolts.
A. OK. You are saying that a lighting bold is a different kind of cause than a tornado. Right? That means, of course, that there would be no such thing as a unifying category of natural causes to describe tornadoes, lightning bolts, or any other act of nature. To call them natural causes, after all, is to say that they are the same kind of cause. So, if they are all different kinds of causes, they cannot also be natural causes. Right? B. And then, we have this other question, which you continue to dodge: Can science demonstrate the existence of ANY kind of cause, such as a natural cause? If so, how is that possible? If not, then why would you expect science to demonstrate intelligent agency as a cause?StephenB
December 9, 2015
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RDFISH You don't operate different than a rock? We can tell.Andre
December 9, 2015
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Hi StephenB,
Is a murderer (agent cause) a categorically different kind of cause than an accidental death (natural cause) or is it not? Is a burglar (agent cause) a categorically different kind of cause than a tornado (natural cause) or is it not?
Every kind of cause is different. Snakes are different from bees which are different from tornados which are different from humans which are different from beavers which are different from lightning bolts. There is no scientific evidence that human beings operate according to anything but the same sorts of lawlike regularities observed in every other type of cause. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 9, 2015
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Hi StephenB, Somehow my last response to you didn't post... Briefly:
Meanwhile, you have quietly abandoned your claim that we can never “rule out” natural causes. I refuted that claim, but you have been silent on the matter ever since.
And again: "Natural" means "not by human action". Anything done by human beings are, by definition, not natural causes, and everything else, by definition, is.
Your rationale has something to do with the alleged possibility that there might be some other kind of natural cause that we don’t know about. My question to you—again—is this: Have you abandoned that position or do you still hold to it?
Of course there are natural causes we do not yet know about, and we don't fully understand many sorts of causes that we describe mathematically in physics. Now, here is the most important point, as always: You define "intelligent agency" as "that which arranges matter for a purpose". But you ignored that I emphasized objectively observable in my question. If someone said that light travels at 100mph, we could all make objective observations and perform experiments and clearly agree that we have empirical observations that the person was wrong. If someone said that rainclouds dump water on cornfields for the purpose of irrigating the corn, or that the sun shines on Earth for the purpose of warming our planet and providing energy, we could not make any objective observations or perform any experiments in order to show they were right or wrong. Try again. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
December 9, 2015
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