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Recent papers confirm that genetic entropy decreases fitness

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entropy illustrated

Over at Creation-Evolution Headlines, Dave Coppedge reports that two recent journal article’s have confirmed Cornell’s John Sanford’s “genetic entropy”: An accumulation of mutations always decreases fitness (contrary to neo-Darwinists’ hopes):

For mutations under epistasis to produce innovation, there must be a way for them to work together (synergistic epistasis). This is often assumed but has not been observed. Most experiments have shown beneficial mutations working against each other (antagonistic epistasis; see 12/14/2006), or causing even less fitness than if they acted alone (decompensatory epistasis; see 10/19/2004). In a new paper in Science,3 Khan et al, working with Richard Lenski [Michigan State], leader of the longest-running experiment on evolution of E. coli, found a law of diminishing returns with beneficial mutations due to negative epistasis.

Diminishing returns?

Like this, for example?: An increased number of spelling errors in a letter retyped in series by a number of different people does not add up to a new, better letter over time?

Coppedge also notes the way the science media handled the news, for example:

“The more mutations the researchers added, the more they interfered with each other,” was one of the “surprising” results.

Surprising to whom? Not to Dembski and other members of the No Free Lunch club.

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Comments
If there is any positive evidence from the science of ID that the eye was designed, I would be interested to see it.
uh I just gave it to you...the same gene produces widely divergent types of eyes in widely divergent animals.tsmith
June 14, 2011
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F/N: A different view on the "slam dunk" case for eye evolution.kairosfocus
June 14, 2011
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KF, The burden is on ID to oust evolutionary science as the mainstream paradigm. As you surely know, the theory of evolution does not depend on abiogenesis. Abiogenesis either results from natural processes or by divine fiat. Either will do for the theory of evolution.Driver
June 14, 2011
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A clue or two
LOL...more 'just so' stories...
Development of the vertebrate eye cup. a | The neural plate is the starting point for the development of the vertebrate eye cup. b | The neural plate folds upwards and inwards. c | The optic grooves evaginate. d | The lips of the neural folds approach each other and the optic vesicles bulge outwards. e | After the lips have sealed the neural tube is pinched off. At this stage the forebrain grows upwards and the optic vesicles continue to balloon outwards: they contact the surface ectoderm and induce the lens placode.
shazam...amazing how that just happens isn't it?tsmith
June 14, 2011
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Joseph asks: What happens when there are a dozen or more competing traits- each beneficial to the individals who have them? Well, it's an interesting question, and partly depends what you mean by "competing traits". In a sexually reproducing population, it may well be that some combinations of traits have a positive effect on phenotypic fitness and some a negative. I'll assume that's what you mean. If the alleles are on very different parts of genome, don't tend to be inherited together, then we will tend to have a normalish distribution of the combined phenotypic effects, where individuals with the "good" cocktail will be the lucky ones, whereas those at the "bad" end of the spectrum will be less fit. Traits that tend to concentrate at the "bad" end will tend to go down in frequency, but those that tend to concentrate at the "good" end will tend to go up. However, if traits that are towards the "bad" end nonetheless have positive effects at the "good" end, the "bad" effects will persist in the population, even though those individuals will tend to have few, if any, children. This is one possible explanation for highly heritable disorders that seem to have very small but significant association with a large number "risk" alleles. Those "risk" alleles may persist in the population because in most individuals they are neutral, and may even be positive (the "risk" alleles for schizophrenia, for example, may be beneficial if not found in a cocktail with other "risk" alleles". So the answer is complicated! In a non-sexually reproducing species (unless artificially manipulated like Lenski's) a beneficial mutation that is then succeeded by a mutation that, if, alone, would have been beneficial but which, in combination with the earlier one, adds no (or little) more benefit, then its chances of propagating through the population is much reduced.
And then what happens when a flash flood comes along and wipes out the entire population?
All those precious new alleles are lost! (Unless Noah comes along, I guess :))Elizabeth Liddle
June 14, 2011
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evolution is racist to its core
Gravity is deeply predjucided against obese people and the sun tends to be kinder to those with dark skin (and a lack of ginger hair;) )DrBot
June 14, 2011
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you don’t have a clue actually, yet you believe the eye evolved?
There is more than a clue. A clue or two If there is any positive evidence from the science of ID that the eye was designed, I would be interested to see it.Driver
June 14, 2011
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Driver: Pardon, but you are indulging in burden of proof shifting. We know on massive evidence that intelligence is capable of creating functionally specific, complex organised entities. The eye is a member of this class of entity. What we have yet to see shown is that chance plus necessity, starting from a still warm pond can spontaneously originate a metabolising, self-replicating automaton that uses -- notice the additionality -- the code based von Neumann kinematic self replicator to do that. Then, it needs to be shown that such an entity can and does spontaneously originate further complex body plans and associated organs including the eye. A priori imposition of materialism through the backdoor of so called methodological naturalism, backed up by just so stories that do not address specifically and on specific observational evidence relevant to origin how irreducibly complex organisation of parts into wholes came about or come about incrementally or by co-option -- have you ever had to get the specific part of a general type to match your particular car? -- do not hack it. Philip Johnson's rebuke to Lewontin is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 14, 2011
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Haldane’s dilemma is based on faulty calculations. No-one takes it seriously any more.
of course they don't take it seriously...best to ignore what they cannot explain...'faulty calculations' LOLtsmith
June 14, 2011
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This is evolution: The change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms. What is racist about that?
this is evolution....
Watson is credited with discovering the double helix along with Maurice Wilkins and Francis Crick in 1962. In the newspaper interview, he said there was no reason to think that races which had grown up in separate geographical locations should have evolved identically. He went on to say that although he hoped everyone was equal, “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.
tsmith
June 14, 2011
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Haldane's dilemma is based on faulty calculations. No-one takes it seriously any more.Driver
June 14, 2011
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No, Coyne is talking about practical benefits, not whether it is science.
how can it be science, when you don't know how it evolved, you don't have a clue actually, yet you believe the eye evolved? sounds like faith to me. can you tell me another branch of science that has no practical benefits and IS science?tsmith
June 14, 2011
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THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Stephen Meyer - Morality Presupposes Theism (1 of 4) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpdh1b0X_M Nuclear Strength Apologetics – Presuppositional Apologetics – video http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/nuclear-strength-apologetics/nuclear-strength-apologetics John Lennox - Science Is Impossible Without God - Quotes - video remix http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6287271/ Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place: Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ What is the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism? ('inconsistent identity' of cause leads to failure of absolute truth claims for materialists) (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNg4MJgTFw Can atheists trust their own minds? - William Lane Craig On Alvin Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byN38dyZb-k "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 It is also interesting to point out that this ‘inconsistent identity’, pointed out by Plantinga, which leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to make absolute truth claims for their beliefs, is what also leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to be able to account for objective morality, in that neo-Darwinists cannot maintain a consistent identity towards a cause for objective morality; The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDyLs_cReE "Atheists may do science, but they cannot justify what they do. When they assume the world is rational, approachable, and understandable, they plagiarize Judeo-Christian presuppositions about the nature of reality and the moral need to seek the truth. As an exercise, try generating a philosophy of science from hydrogen coming out of the big bang. It cannot be done. It’s impossible even in principle, because philosophy and science presuppose concepts that are not composed of particles and forces. They refer to ideas that must be true, universal, necessary and certain." Creation-Evolution Headlinesbornagain77
June 14, 2011
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evolution is racist to its core
This is evolution: The change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms. What is racist about that? As I already said, everyone sensible admits that evolution occurs. Are you saying that reality is racist?Driver
June 14, 2011
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no comment about the pax-6 gene...no surprise...oh and Lenski took 20,000 generations for this one small change...ever hear of Haldane's dilemma??? (I've mentioned this several times...crickets chirping)tsmith
June 14, 2011
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Driver unbeknownst to you when you state: 'Again, why the religion? I thought ID was science.' and stuff like this: Until ID has more than faith in that respect, evolution is the only science in town. ,, is that science is impossible from a materialistic framework; i.e. Only Theism guarantees our investigation within 'science' to lead to true conclusions: THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Stephen Meyer - Morality Presupposes Theism (1 of 4) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpdh1b0X_M Nuclear Strength Apologetics – Presuppositional Apologetics – video http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/video/ondemand/nuclear-strength-apologetics/nuclear-strength-apologetics John Lennox - Science Is Impossible Without God - Quotes - video remix http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6287271/ Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place: Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ What is the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism? ('inconsistent identity' of cause leads to failure of absolute truth claims for materialists) (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNg4MJgTFw Can atheists trust their own minds? - William Lane Craig On Alvin Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byN38dyZb-k "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 It is also interesting to point out that this ‘inconsistent identity’, pointed out by Plantinga, which leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to make absolute truth claims for their beliefs, is what also leads to the failure of neo-Darwinists to be able to account for objective morality, in that neo-Darwinists cannot maintain a consistent identity towards a cause for objective morality; The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDyLs_cReE "Atheists may do science, but they cannot justify what they do. When they assume the world is rational, approachable, and understandable, they plagiarize Judeo-Christian presuppositions about the nature of reality and the moral need to seek the truth. As an exercise, try generating a philosophy of science from hydrogen coming out of the big bang. It cannot be done. It’s impossible even in principle, because philosophy and science presuppose concepts that are not composed of particles and forces. They refer to ideas that must be true, universal, necessary and certain." Creation-Evolution Headlines http://creationsafaris.com/crev201102.htm#20110227abornagain77
June 14, 2011
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evolution is useless for science
No, Coyne is talking about practical benefits, not whether it is science.Driver
June 14, 2011
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re not Lenski’s E Coli experiment and nylonase sufficient examples?
as Behe says:
Despite his understandable desire to spin the results his way, Lenski’s decades-long work lines up wonderfully with what an ID person would expect — in a huge number of tries, one sees minor changes, mostly degradative, and no new complex systems. So much for the power of random mutation and natural selection.
http://behe.uncommondescent.com/2009/10/new-work-by-richard-lenski/tsmith
June 14, 2011
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Joseph, Are not Lenski's E Coli experiment and nylonase sufficient examples? If you are wondering why scientists haven't yet observed a mouse evolving from a bacteria then I can give you a clue why, if you like.Driver
June 14, 2011
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It is naive to think that because a scientific discipline cannot answer a particular complex question the entire scientific discipline is then somehow invalid.
what complex questions has evolution EVER answered? hmm?? how about any simple ones? evolution is useless for science, as coyne admits:
To some extent these excesses are not Mindell's fault, for, if truth be told, evolution hasn't yielded many practical or commercial benefits. Yes, bacteria evolve drug resistance, and yes, we must take countermeasures, but beyond that there is not much to say. Evolution cannot help us predict what new vaccines to manufacture because microbes evolve unpredictably. But hasn't evolution helped guide animal and plant breeding? Not very much. Most improvement in crop plants and animals occurred long before we knew anything about evolution, and came about by people following the genetic principle of `like begets like'. Even now, as its practitioners admit, the field of quantitative genetics has been of little value in helping improve varieties. Future advances will almost certainly come from transgenics, which is not based on evolution at all. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v442/n7106/full/442983a.html
Even most ID proponents admit that evolution has taken place. The party line is usually that there are limits on evolution (“micro-evolution occurs, but macro-evolution is not possible”). If someone could provide evidence for those limits, I would convert to the ID side.
lets see since there is no macro evolution shown in the lab or the fossil record, then evolution is nothing more than faith.tsmith
June 14, 2011
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Driver, ID is OK with universal common descent- meaning ID does not argue against it. ID argues against the claim that all mutations are genetic accidents/ errors/ mistakes- meaning organisms were designed to evolve. That said there isn't any genetic data that can be linked to the physiological and anatomical transformations required for UCD. THAT is the issue- what we observe as "microevolution" cannot be extrapolated to the grand changes required.Joseph
June 14, 2011
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Gem: very true. racism and eugenics were part of the theory of evolution from the beginning. like this exceprt from 'a civic biology' which was the textbook at the heart of the 'scopes monkey trial'
At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the other in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, in structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan, and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.
evolution is racist to its core..since the races evolved separately some must be superior to others...and Watson admitted in an earlier quote I posted from him...tsmith
June 14, 2011
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All those scientists doing evolutionary biology and yet not one piece of evidence that demonstrates mutations can accumulate in such a way as to construct new, useful and functional multi-part systems. Just what are they doing?Joseph
June 14, 2011
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you can’t answer the question
It is naive to think that because a scientific discipline cannot answer a particular complex question the entire scientific discipline is then somehow invalid. Even most ID proponents admit that evolution has taken place. The party line is usually that there are limits on evolution ("micro-evolution occurs, but macro-evolution is not possible"). If someone could provide evidence for those limits, I would convert to the ID side.Driver
June 14, 2011
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Drver:
Re the evolution of the eye: We know that mutations take place that change organisms.
Yet there still isn't any vidence that they cn accumulate in such a way as to give rise to new, useful and functional multi-part systems.
Can you prove that the eye was designed?
Science isn't about proof. The evidence says it was desiged.
Until ID has more than faith in that respect, evolution is the only science in town.
ID is not anti-evolution.Joseph
June 14, 2011
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which scientists?
Well there's 1162 Steves. Every department of biology at every university The two papers mentioned in the article are examples of evolutionary biology.
Driver
June 14, 2011
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Re the evolution of the eye: We know that mutations take place that change organisms.
we also know that the vast majorities of mutations are harmful.
Can you prove that the eye was designed? Until ID has more than faith in that respect, evolution is the only science in town.
so in other words, ya got nothing...except faith in evolution. no surprise. you can't answer the question...all you can do is punt!! LOL sure I can prove the eye is designed...ever hear of the PAX-6? interesting how all animals with eyes use the same gene...even though they are widely divergent...let me guess...you'll just say 'common ancestry' but its also found in animals without eyes...tsmith
June 14, 2011
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TS: Sorry, but the relevant history of ideas and of evolutionary "science" cannot be so easily brushed aside by trying to wedge apart Social Darwinism from Darwinism, as the connexion was there almost from the beginning, starting with Darwin himself in Chs 5 - 7 of his Descent of Man. There is a major moral hazard that has been historically important and which must be squarely faced, not ducked. If you doubt me, look carefully at the logo for the 2nd international conference on Eugenics, and the surrounding discussion here. Notice the definition in the logo: "Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution." Notice the roots of the eugenics tree, including: biology, anthropology, statistics, geology, anatomy, phsyiology, psychology and mental testing. There is absolutely no doubt that this was viewed -- at highest levels in science and culture, and for many decades over the span of coming on a century -- as an applied science to improve the breed so to speak. It is only when the horrors of what was done not only by Hitler but by so called advanced democratic countries -- what was done to Amerindians, Blacks and others deemed unfit is appalling -- was exposed, especially in the civil rights era that the tree was cut down, and in fact it is still pushing up shoots. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 14, 2011
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tsmith, Re the evolution of the eye: We know that mutations take place that change organisms. Can you prove that the eye was designed? Until ID has more than faith in that respect, evolution is the only science in town.Driver
June 14, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Nope:
Heritable traits that tend to promote successful reproduction in one generation will be preferentially represented in the next. Again, it’s self-evidently true, but that doesn’t make it tautological.
There is indeed a sharp difference between a self evident truth and a tautology, but the claim is simply not self evident. For simple instance, if a trait would otherwise have been advantageous but a devastating wild fire or volcanic eruption reduces an island to starvation and extinciton of life, there is no reproduction to speak about. A self evident truth is true, and on reflection on our understanding of the world, is necessarily so, on pain of patent absurdity. There are simply too many gaps between traits in members of a population and the patterns of reproduction that will prevail for such an assertion to be self-evident. However, there is a major problem that many forms of the survival of the fittest theme are indeed circular and in that sense empty tautologies. (There are key mathematical tautologies that are highly useful as baseline axioms or definitions.) GEM of TKI PS: In the other thread I have pointed to the importance of ostensive definition [underscoring the limitations of operational de3finitions], and have used this in outlining the rationale for the Chi metric, in the context of Shannon's own work as clipped a couple of days back.kairosfocus
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