Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

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The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
kairosfocus: Chi_500 is a metric for FSCO/I So FSCO/I = Chi_500 = I*S – 500 ? kairosfocus: I*S will measure (in an observational context) functionally specific bits, and if there is storage capacity but no observational reason to see functional specificity, it will lock to 0. The – 500 threshold term dominates. Only where we have more that 500 functionally specific bits will the expression go positive. S is not the answer as it only gets us to functional specificity per observation. That doesn't provide a specific means of calculating I or S. This is how it is normally done: I is the Shannon Information of a sequence S is the functional specificity of the sequence (proportion of sequences of the universe of sequences that perform the function) FSCO/I = I*S – 500 Or whatever.Zachriel
December 13, 2014
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Z, Chi_500 is a metric for FSCO/I, using a solar system threshold. I*S will measure (in an observational context) functionally specific bits, and if there is storage capacity but no observational reason to see functional specificity, it will lock to 0. The - 500 threshold term dominates. Only where we have more that 500 functionally specific bits will the expression go positive. S is not the answer as it only gets us to functional specificity per observation. The complexity comes from elsewhere (from how many y/n q's have to be answered to get the relevant function going through interaction of components) and only with functional specificity and adequate complexity for the needle in haystack challenge to kick in, will there be an inference that we are beyond a threshold where blind chance is not an adequate explanation, on the gamut of the solar system. An easy way to view S is to ask how sensitive a function is to perturbation of components. Fishing reel parts will work within fairly wide tolerances in some cases, very little in others. E.g. the 6500 C3 uses fairly soft brass gearing -- easy to machine -- and nowadays the tendency is to use C-fibre washers (even, home made from 0.5 mm C-tex). Problem, if you over-tighten the star drag, and you have a big fish, the gears will strip -- they cannot take the forces. Other reels use bronze or even stainless steel. The oil used in the ball bearings affects casting distance, and the mags, backlashing tendency. And more, just to bring out some of the issues. The H metric is informational entropy based on statistics of messages, in effect measuring avg info per symbol in the codes used; this is what Durston et al elaborated on. The link to thermodynamic entropy is through the same Y/N q chain, the entropy measures the avg no of y/n q's to specify microstate consistent with a macrostate defined on relevant sets of state variables such as P, V, T etc. Base 2 logs being used, lb is the proper abbreviation. The more common ln, natural logs, is related via a constant. Base 10 is lg. All of this ties into that there is no one equation, just as there is no one one size fits all transistor amp model . . . I tend to favour simplified h parameter at lo freq ranges, hybrid pi or mods on it bring in higher f stuff, these days computer models rooted in SPICE etc use several dozen parameters. . Horses for courses. KFkairosfocus
December 13, 2014
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RB:
Of course it is my belief that extant bacteria also reflect a long, contingent evolutionary history.
No one cares what you believe. What does the science demonstrate? This is why the OoL is essential as only if the OoL was due to blind watchmaker-type processes would we infer evolution was via blind watchmaker-type processes. OTOH if the OoL = intelligent design then we would infer that living organisms were intelligently designed to evolve and evolved by intelligent design. And we have modeled such cases with evolutionary and genetic algorithms.Joe
December 13, 2014
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kairosfocus: S –> a dummy variable, default 0 [assumed chance as cause] set to 1 on demonstrated functional specificity [results in Chi_500 defaulting to - 500, and going positive only if we are beyond a threshold where a functionally specific configuration is not plausible by chance on the gamut of atomic and temporal resources reasonably accessible to the solar system. S seems to encompass the very answer you are attempting to reach. If S already includes the answer, then why bother with the other terms of the calculation.Zachriel
December 13, 2014
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kairosfocus: there actually are two eqns there kairosfocus: Chi_500 = I*S – 500, functionally specific bits beyond the solar system threshold. kairosfocus: I –> a relevant info metric, rooted in standard info theory, e.g. H = – SUM pi lb pi, in bits But neither of them include the term FSCO/I. Is FSCO/I = I*S? And is I = – SUM pi ln pi? The biodiversity index? If not, then what is pi in this case?Zachriel
December 13, 2014
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Z, false, really read it this time; there actually are two eqns there. KFkairosfocus
December 13, 2014
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AR said:
What I meant was that, as I understand you, ID does not replace evolutionary theory. It accepts the observations but rejects the mechanism as “the whole story”.
I think it would be clearer to say that ID challenges how Darwinism characterizes those mechanisms. Darwinism asserts that unguided variation processes, and an unguided selection process, are sufficient to account for the rise of functional biodiversity. These characterizations have no evidential basis, as Darwinists here have admitted. Such characterizations have always been ideological assumptions unsubstantiated by scientific evidence. There is not anything else about evolutionary theory that ID theory fundamentally disagrees with.William J Murray
December 13, 2014
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kairosfocus: Did you actually read 275 – 6 Yes. You didn't provide an equation. kairosfocus: what’s the model for a transistor amplifier ckt? Are you saying there is no equation for FSCO/I?Zachriel
December 13, 2014
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Z, what's the model for a transistor amplifier ckt? KF PS: Did you actually read 275 - 6 before asking what you obviously meant as a dismissive rhetorical question? And, the onward link here and especially the extended cite from Orgel, on what in context I have descriptively summarised as functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information -- FSCO/I, with the application of further insights from Wicken?kairosfocus
December 13, 2014
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kairosfocus: FSCO/I What is the equation for FSCO/I?Zachriel
December 13, 2014
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Onlookers, origin of life is the root of the darwinist tree of life, and it is the place where von Neumann self replicator acting in tandem with assebled protein using metabolic automata with smart gated encapsulation needs explanation. It is FSCO/I rich, in a context where appeals to the magic of natural selection cannot obfuscate the FSCO/I generation challenge. Which must answer to physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, observed diffusion forces, observed hydrolysis reactions, the reactivity of Oxygen, chirality, cross-reactions, heat and more. Thus, the mutual ruin of genes first/RNA world and metabolism first schools of thought in a world where the only empirically warranted explanation of requisite FSCO/I is design. Design sits at the table of causal explanations as of right, from the root on up. KFkairosfocus
December 13, 2014
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RB: Why are you again resorting to schoolyard level taunts (generally an implication of a very weak argument and a worse attitude) instead of dealing with the issue on the merits as put by Orgel and Wicken in the 1970's and as drawn out since by the design theorists and thinkers? (Kindly refer here as a sampler.) I suggest to you that: (i) all that is needed to devastate design theory is a single credible, vera causa demonstrating case of functionally specific, wiring diagram interactively functional complex organisation beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of associated information . . . FSCO/I . . . produced by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity without intelligently directed configuration. (ii) On trillions of cases of FSCO/I as observed being caused, reliably, consistently, it arises by intelligently directed configuration aka design, with attempted counter-examples being consistently shown to illustrate cause by such design. (iii) Per simple analysis of config spaces and requisites of interactive achievement of specific function (with the Abu 6500 C3 etc as concrete examples) relevant functionality comes in deeply isolated islands which once we are beyond relevant 500 - 1,000 bit thresholds, are such that blind search approaches are maximally implausible causes due to the needle in haystack sparse search challenge. (iv) The quantification of the relevant information can at first level be seen by examining the components and identifying xyz location and yaw-pitch-roll orientation, then listing coupling per the node-arcs wiring pattern, which yields six plus degrees of freedom/ dimensions in the config space per part. From which a structured chain of Y/N q's or the equivalent as constrained by the system being in a cluster of relevant functional states -- empirically observable -- soon yields a valid info metric such as we may see in say AutoCAD files. And BTW, this simple "good enough for gov't work" approach is the same as we see in common file size reports in bytes or bits. More sophisticated H-metric based measures using statistics are well known and for instance Durston et al have been on record on such since 2007. (v) The Dembski 2005 metric expression, by simple log reduction turns out to be an information beyond a threshold metric, and an empirically reasonable threshold of 500 or 1,000 bits can be readily applied, with an info as constrained by being in a functionally specific state metric can be developed, hence: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, functionally specific bits beyond the solar system threshold. I --> a relevant info metric, rooted in standard info theory, e.g. H = - SUM pi lb pi, in bits S --> a dummy variable, default 0 [assumed chance as cause] set to 1 on demonstrated functional specificity [results in Chi_500 defaulting to - 500, and going positive only if we are beyond a threshold where a functionally specific configuration is not plausible by chance on the gamut of atomic and temporal resources reasonably accessible to the solar system. That is, a one straw size blind sample from a cubical haystack comparably thick as our galaxy] All of this and more has been on the table for a long time, and the lack of ability to produce credible counter-example backed up by resort to all sort of selectively hyperskeptical and dismissive rhetorical tactics simply underscores the force of the original point. KF PS: chain of structured Y/N q's to specify state is an expansion of, information measured in bits, e.g. ASCII text uses seven such Q's to specify 128 states assigned to glyphs and actions for storage, printing and display of text. Where, BTW, structured Y/N q's is another way of saying, we are specifying a description language sufficient to identify, locate, orient and couple required parts per a node-arcs functional pattern. The mocking of this suggests you have not done a basic digital electronics course, and have never assembled an electronics based instrument or device by working one's way through a wiring diagram based assembly manual. Oh, for the days of Heathkits!.kairosfocus
December 13, 2014
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Mung:
Bill, I never claimed that you argued for a natural origin of life. I don’t I think even implied it. I thought we were talking about the five million trillion trillion [extant] bacteria on earth and whether or not the origins of these instances can be assigned to natural events without assuming the conclusion.
The context of my remark was the Ool. UB at 29, to which I originally responded:
ID has the capacity to follow this same accepted methodology to identify intelligent action at the origin of life
My response at 34:
we don’t know what natural circumstances gave/give rise to replicators capable of Darwinian evolution, and therefore have no basis from which to conclude that such replicators, or certain forms of replicator, are unlikely to have arisen from other than deliberate artifice.
KF at 38, addressed to me:
I must strongly disagree with the assumption that by some unknown mechanism, the hoped for but equally unobserved self replicating molecules did arise and of course then went on to become living cells.
Through KF’ laundry list in 132, addressed to me:
In summary, FSCO/I, biologically functional form, is a pivotal issue for origin of life and of body plans up to our own. Therefore,t eh evidence on the observed adequate cause of FSCO/I is pivotal.
“Instances” my above quoted statement refers to instances of claimed FIASCO, all of which FIASCO UB, KF and others claim originated with the first replicators, e.g. at the origin of life, and necessarily by means of “intelligence.” It is UB, KF’s and others’ claim that the FIASCO in those bacteria may be adduced as evidence for the operation of intelligence at the Ool. Of course it is my belief that extant bacteria also reflect a long, contingent evolutionary history. Part of the problem is that KF’s metric is patently ridiculous - a “count” of individual human acts of artifice, communication, etc., each of which supposedly bears FIASCO. The purpose of counting in this way is to enable a pseudo-impressive claim of an inductive case built upon “trillions of cases.” Better to discard meaningless numbers like that and note the unique, and unrepresentative, cause of all the instances he cites: intelligent human behavior. But since KF is counting “cases” in that way, his numbers need context, in this case the number of instances of FIASCO claimed to exist in the natural world - the origins of which is unknown. Hence while KF claims “trillions” of instances of FIASCO every one of which originates with “intelligence,” his figure is dwarfed by the > five million trillion trillion instances of FIASCO of unknown origin, since said FIASCO supposedly originated at the Ool and we don’t understand the Ool. His sample of FIASCO of known origins turns out to be 1/50 quadrillionth of the total, the balance of which bears FIASCO of unknown origin. To generalize from that completely unique, 1/50 quadrillionth of instances to the rest is to assume a conclusion.
Did you not understand what I was saying?
In your zeal to contrive a “gotcha” you forgot to follow the discussion and failed to grasp my point.
You realize, don’t you, that given that no conclusion can be drawn from your argument, the conclusion you just drew from your argument doesn’t follow? That makes your argument an argument from which nothing can be concluded.
What is with you geniuses and your fondness for these supposed killer paradoxes? In context, I clearly state that my argument yields no conclusions regarding the origin of life, because real conclusions in such a domain are the province of empirical research. Not that it gives no conclusions whatsoever. Grow up. [ETA: letters, words, and so forth. For clarity.]Reciprocating Bill
December 12, 2014
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Bill, I never claimed that you argued for a natural origin of life. I don't I think even implied it. I thought we were talking about the five million trillion trillion [extant] bacteria on earth and whether or not the origins of these instances can be assigned to natural events without assuming the conclusion. [Their origin can be assigned to natural events.] Given that I repeatedly quoted you on this I am not sure how I could have been unclear. So from my perspective, you were arguing that we cannot assign the origin of extant bacteria to "natural" events until we have answered the OOL question. That's certainly what it seemed to me that you were saying. Reciprocating Bill:
…there are approximately five million trillion trillion [Mung: extant] bacteria on earth, each an instance of FSCO/I (you claim). [snip and move ->] the origins of these instances cannot be assigned … to natural events [to here -> as we don’t know the origins of life] unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue.
That's what you wrote. I know I can be cryptic at times, but really? Did you not understand what I was saying? Mung: That makes your argument an argument from which nothing can be concluded. Reciprocating Bill: Thats right! Only the hard work of empirical research can generate relevant conclusions, and even those are not guaranteed. You realize, don't you, that given that no conclusion can be drawn from your argument, the conclusion you just drew from your argument doesn't follow? It's a non sequitur. Reciprocating Bill: Only the hard work of empirical research can generate relevant conclusions, and even those are not guaranteed. That doesn't follow from your argument.Mung
December 12, 2014
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wd400, ok, so let just talk about your nose hairs. Or are there too many of those to talk about too? ;)Mung
December 12, 2014
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groovamos, You question is really very poorly posed. It's like asking for a "billion step" process that determined the number of hairs of my arms. If you just want something to rant and rave about go ahead and repeat the question, if you want an answer you should learn enough developmental biology to see no "billion step" process is required. I'm happy to admit I misread the change you were specifying with scientific notation. But the tiny minute difference you were actually referring to underlies the absurdity of the question you are asking. Why do you think such a change was required at any stage of the process? Do you know for sure that the number is cilia is actually specified to that degree?wd400
December 12, 2014
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Mung:
Yes Bill, you meant it as an argument against ID but it turned out to be one that worked equally well against the anti-ID position.
Buzzt. What I’ve rejected are assumed conclusions. Only arguments turning on such assumptions a are deflated by it. I’ve identified the assumed conclusions in the above ID arguments, as articulated by UB and KF in various forms, topped off by Barry’s comment. You can read the value of PI directly from the circles they traverse.
You must be assuming a conclusion regarding the very question at issue.
Only if had argued for a "natural" OOL on the basis of my assumptions. But I’ve been clear in declining to substitute assumptions for conclusions within my own framework. I don’t know how life got its start and neither does anyone else here, including KF and UB. But they claim otherwise, by means of assumed conclusions. I’ve been equally clear that it is my expectation these questions will eventually be answered in a scientific context, but I don’t pretend that my expectation can be equated with a dispositive conclusion. I’ve been explicit about that as well.
That makes your argument an argument from which nothing can be concluded.
Thats right! Only the hard work of empirical research can generate relevant conclusions, and even those are not guaranteed.Reciprocating Bill
December 12, 2014
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Alicia Renard:
I’ve learned so far that ID is not a substitute for evolutionary theory.
Alicia Renard:
ID would be better to direct its attack on ToE where it is weaker.
If ID is not a substitute for evolutionary theory then why should ID attack evolutionary theory? [insert raised quizzical eyebrow here] Alicia Renard:
OOL is not part of evolutionary theory.
Sure it is.Mung
December 12, 2014
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Barry:
The entire ID project will come tumbling down with a single instance of chance/law forces having been observed to create CSI.
And we're still waiting for even a single instance. All the ID critics, and all their materialist friends, could not put humpty dumpty [or even the simplest cell] together by any chance and law blends.Mung
December 12, 2014
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Seversky said:
Quite true, secularism per se does not guarantee anything. Another thing it doesn’t do, however, is entail a commitment to – or endorsement of – any specific ideology or theology. That implies a tolerance of diverse beliefs and opinions which is equivalent to religious freedom.
The term itself implies no such thing. Diverse beliefs and views, such as religious freedom, may or may not be tolerated under a secular government. A secularist government can be either indifferent to, or hostile to, religious beliefs. By definition, secularism has nothing whatsoever to do with any non-religious beliefs or opinions.
The intolerance of the Chinese government ...
blah, blah blah. It's still a secular government.
The reason you have religious freedom is because a group of perceptive Enlightenment thinkers who happened to be Christian...
As I said, I have these rights because of Christians recognizing the value of a certain degree of secularism between government and religion in serving their belief of inviolable human rights and liberty.
They have no transcendent rights
You don't seem to understand the term "transcendent". Such rights transcend worldly governments. They don't transcend "everything", and certainly they do not transcend that which is the ground of their transcendent rights.
Esoteric notions about transcendent rights of man weigh very little compared with that.
Except for the fact that the most free country on Earth, one dedicated to freedom of belief and personal rights, was fought for and founded on just such "esoteric notions". I wonder, what other country was founded on the idea of personal liberty, individual rights and a limited power of government?William J Murray
December 12, 2014
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WD400 @ 245: Seriously groovamos, you should learn about developmental biology. It is an interesting field, and knowing about it would help you ask better questions. That's it for you guys, the highly educated public will never get an answer to an unsurmountable problem for DARWNIAN EXPLANATIONS from you guys. Because you just come back with this game of we'll never be educated enough to understand it. Which is a variation on the old argument from "authority" which is SO old and tired. YOU ARE IN THE CORNER to have to resort to that. I specifically gave an example of structure. I specifically asked for a Darwinian explanation. Which depends on something called RANDOMNESS which you didn't even bring up. You declined to address any stochastic component of the famous Darwinian RM/NS paradigm because I have you in the corner. And you can't even be honest enough to say you can't answer. You declined to even address ANY aspect of selection pressure in the famous RM/NS failed paradigm not only because it fails but because of a lack of humility without which you would admit YOU ARE IN THE CORNER. You can't even admit to your ignorance of how to treat exponents in scientific notation. You think that has no nexus in common with the ego squashing humility to the dirt? So far as good questions, I asked the best possible because you can't answer it and you failed the scientific notation test that was part and parcel. I'm happy you and the the young folks come to this site because you guys do the 'work' for our cause.groovamos
December 12, 2014
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ID would be better to direct its attack on ToE where it is weaker.
No one seems to be able to find the ToE let alone attack it.
Once you have eukaryotes, multicellularity and the HOX genes, much of the heavy lifting is done.
Even given starting populations of prokaryotes yours cannot produce anything but more prokaryotes.Joe
December 12, 2014
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[ID] accepts the observations but rejects the mechanism as “the whole story”.
Of course. ID accepts the observations. It rejects the neo-Darwinian synthesis as sufficient to account for the observations.
I mean that ID (Behe version) accepts the facts of evolution (time-scale, fossil pattern, apparent branching nested hierarchy from a (caveats on HGT) common ancestor but claims evolutionary mechanisms, whilst operating at a “micro” level, are insufficient to account for observations.
I cannot speak for Dr. Behe, but based on my reading of his work, he accepts an old earth. He accepts common descent. The entire point of his book The Edge of Evolution is that the neo-Darwinian explanation is quite adequate up until the time it is not (hence, the word “Edge”). I don’t know where he is on the nested hierarchy issue.
Once you have eukaryotes, multicellularity and the HOX genes, much of the heavy lifting is done.
Two observations. 1. You give yourself an awful lot. 2. There are good reasons to reject your assertion, as Meyers explains in Darwin’s Doubt. Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2014
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Alicia Renard: The panoply of deuterostomes are just a variation on the doughnut, topologically speaking. http://crossfitamplify.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/DonutHomer.jpgZachriel
December 12, 2014
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Barry Arrington (260 December 12, 2014 at 2:27 pm) writes: AR @ 259:
I’ve learned so far that ID is not a substitute for evolutionary theory.
It depends on what you mean by “evolutionary theory.” The phrase is so vague as to be all but meaningless. It could mean “things are different now than they were in the past.” No one argues with that.
What I meant was that, as I understand you, ID does not replace evolutionary theory. It accepts the observations but rejects the mechanism as "the whole story".
IDers do not dispute common descent.
IDers vary on this point. Some accept it (Behe); others are skeptical. The spirit of your statement is correct. Common descent is not necessarily incompatible with ID, especially if your ID is of the “front loaded” variety.
*Alicia raises quizzical eyebrow but moves to next point*
ID thinking claims that evolutionary theory is insufficient to account for common descent.
Upon reflection, I am not sure what you mean here. ID theory posits that the neo-Darwinist synthesis is almost certainly wrong. If that is what you are saying, you are correct.
I mean that ID (Behe version) accepts the facts of evolution (time-scale, fossil pattern, apparent branching nested hierarchy from a (caveats on HGT) common ancestor but claims evolutionary mechanisms, whilst operating at a "micro" level, are insufficient to account for observations.
Alicia says: ‘I don’t know why things happened the way they did but scientific methods have done a pretty good job of picking apart some of the “how” ‘. What does Barry say?
For minor variations within a type (e.g., finch beaks; bacterial resistance to drugs), certainly you are correct.
Always good to find the common ground. so much energy can be wasted in miscommunication.
As for new body plans, major morphological changes, the neo-Darwinist synthesis more or less simply extrapolates from micro-evolution. There are very good reasons to doubt that extrapolation.
Well all good things come to an end! :) ID would be better to direct its attack on ToE where it is weaker. Once you have eukaryotes, multicellularity and the HOX genes, much of the heavy lifting is done. The panoply of deuterostomes are just a variation on the doughnut, topologically speaking.
As for OOL issues, the statement is just flat out wrong. Materialist scientists haven’t the slightest idea. Some of them are even courageous enough to admit it.
OOL is not part of evolutionary theory. Personally I agree that science has almost no evidence to test the considerable number of ideas regarding early life and proto-life. Not sure why you think stating the fact is courageous. As I'm away for the Christmas holiday and will be with friends and family until after the New Year, may I wish all readers and contributors to this blog Merry Christmas and Happy New YearAlicia Renard
December 12, 2014
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I’ve learned so far that ID is not a substitute for evolutionary theory.
OK ID isn't a substitute for something that doesn't exist. We agree.
IDers do not dispute common descent.
What do you mean by "common descent"? Universal common descent cannot be tested.
Beyond this point, Alicia says: ‘I don’t know why things happened the way they did but scientific methods have done a pretty good job of picking apart some of the “how” ‘.
Pertaining to what?Joe
December 12, 2014
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AR @ 259:
I’ve learned so far that ID is not a substitute for evolutionary theory.
It depends on what you mean by “evolutionary theory.” The phrase is so vague as to be all but meaningless. It could mean “things are different now than they were in the past.” No one argues with that.
IDers do not dispute common descent.
IDers vary on this point. Some accept it (Behe); others are skeptical. The spirit of your statement is correct. Common descent is not necessarily incompatible with ID, especially if your ID is of the “front loaded” variety.
ID thinking claims that evolutionary theory is insufficient to account for common descent.
Upon reflection, I am not sure what you mean here. ID theory posits that the neo-Darwinist synthesis is almost certainly wrong. If that is what you are saying, you are correct.
Alicia says: ‘I don’t know why things happened the way they did but scientific methods have done a pretty good job of picking apart some of the “how” ‘. What does Barry say?
For minor variations within a type (e.g., finch beaks; bacterial resistance to drugs), certainly you are correct. As for new body plans, major morphological changes, the neo-Darwinist synthesis more or less simply extrapolates from micro-evolution. There are very good reasons to doubt that extrapolation. As for OOL issues, the statement is just flat out wrong. Materialist scientists haven’t the slightest idea. Some of them are even courageous enough to admit it.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2014
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Barry Arrington writes:
The entire ID project will come tumbling down with a single instance of chance/law forces having been observed to create CSI.
I've learned so far that ID is not a substitute for evolutionary theory. IDers do not dispute common descent. ID thinking claims that evolutionary theory is insufficient to account for common descent. So up to this point, perhaps, Barry and Alicia do not disagree. Beyond this point, Alicia says: 'I don't know why things happened the way they did but scientific methods have done a pretty good job of picking apart some of the "how" '. What does Barry say?Alicia Renard
December 12, 2014
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RB, per inductive logic, as the design inference is per best explanation on reliable sign, such as FSCO/I, the proper response if one hopes to successfully overturn that best explanation status is to show a credible case where FSCO/I arises by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, the alternatives to intelligently directed configuration. That is a direct and in principle very achievable test that is within our reach of observation. It seems that the many rhetorical gambits we see these days from objectors, amount to this: the test to provide an alternative observed cause of FSCO/I has consistently failed, so as the inference that design is therefore its best causal explanation is held ideologically objectionable, selectively hyperskeptical objections are put up. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2014
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So the relevant test of ID would be to determine whether objects of interest that exhibit putative CSI (such as biological organisms) are the product of a designer.
And we have to the satisfaction of everyone but the people who cannot support their own position. OTOH your position still has nothing and we understand that bothers you and your ilk.Joe
December 12, 2014
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