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Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

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The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
Barry:
When CSI is observed, ID posits that the existence of a designer is entailed. You do not understand ID. It does not posit that designers have entailments. It posits that objects that exhibit CSI have entailments.
So the relevant test of ID would be to determine whether objects of interest that exhibit putative CSI (such as biological organisms) are the product of a designer. Given that, you can hardly also argue that evidence for said designer is the presence of CSI in the object, which would be wholly and obviously circular. Yet that is among the most frequently cited arguments for ID we encounter.Reciprocating Bill
December 12, 2014
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AR, still on about "analogies"? That speaks volumes, and not in your favour. And, as far as quantification goes, look to AutocCAD not me, or if you want, observe Orgel on the subject, though what he said is hardly new. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2014
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Dear Alicia Renard, Intelligent Design has testable entailments and makes testable claims. OTOH unguided evolution doesn't have any testable entailments nor does it make any testable claims. Why you think your willful ignorance refutes all of that is beyond us.Joe
December 12, 2014
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AR @ 251
What entailments are you giving your designers?
"Entail" means "involve (something) as a necessary or inevitable part or consequence." ID posits that designers and only designers create complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures (which are a subset of CSI). Therefore, when CSI is observed, ID posits that the existence of a designer is entailed. You do not understand ID. It does not posit that designers have entailments. It posits that objects that exhibit CSI have entailments.
What are you going to investigate?
Whether CSI is observed to exist. If it does, we conclude that the observation is best explained as the act of an intelligent designer.
Well, indeed, as long as you make untestable claims, nobody can disprove them.
The entire ID project will come tumbling down with a single instance of chance/law forces having been observed to create CSI.Barry Arrington
December 12, 2014
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Yes Bill, you meant it as an argument against ID but it turned out to be one that worked equally well against the anti-ID position. That makes your argument an argument from which nothing can be concluded. It only remains to be seen whether you will repeat it or go back to the drawing board. It does not escape us that in providing the "context" within which your words should be understood you leave out the words you actually wrote. Reciprocating Bill @ 118:
…there are approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth, each an instance of FSCO/I (you claim). As we don’t know the origins of life, the origins of these instances cannot be assigned ... to natural events unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue.
And yet you seem perfectly willing to assign these instances [of approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth] to natural events. You must be assuming a conclusion regarding the very question at issue.Mung
December 12, 2014
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Barry Arrington writes:
You do not appear to understand my argument.
That's very likely. We almost seem to speak a different language.
So Barry Arrington proposes advanced alien lifeforms sent out probes containing micro-organisms to seed life around the universe?
I made no such proposal. I merely pointed out that there is no warrant for your dismissal of a material embodied designer on an a priori basis.
I only dismiss the unentailed. Anything that is proposed that has entailments can be formed into a hypothesis that could be tested. Does your proposal of a "material embodied designer" acting to bring about the first living things include any details?
So where did these embodied material designers come from? Where did they go? Were they like Craig Venter?
Again, you are missing the point, which is that design by a material embodied agent is not logically impossible and therefore should not be dismissed on an a priori basis. None of these questions needs to be answered to know that proposition is true.
Again, I haven't dismissed anything. I asked questions.
Barry: And the next step is that one need not posit an immaterial supernatural designer to make a design inference regarding a biological structure. AR: Well, no. I’m not positing any such immaterial designer; I thought that was something the ID camp came up with.
Then you were under a misapprehension about ID. The theory does not posit that the designer is immaterial. It does not posit that the designer is material. It posits that the designer, whether material or immaterial, designed, and that such design leaves indicia that may be discovered though an empirical investigation.
You can only look for something detectable. The SETI project have set out their entailments. If an advanced alien civilisation exists elsewhere, they may use radio as a means to communicate with other civilisations. This might be narrow-band and in a likely range of frequencies so let's look there. What entailments are you giving your designers? What are you going to investigate?
AR: If you want to develop KF’s analogy about fishing reels, feel free.
No need. KF has developed it sufficiently himself. I merely pointed out that your opposition to his analogy is unfounded. To summarize: KF proposed his fishing reel analogy. You objected to the fishing reel analogy on the ground that a designer must be material. My point is simple and narrow: That objection fails because there is no reason, in principle, why the designer need not be material. Any designer, whether material or immaterial, will leave the same sorts of indicia of design.
Well, indeed, as long as you make untestable claims, nobody can disprove them. As I said before, where does that get you? Nowhere scientifically speaking, as far as I can see.Alicia Renard
December 12, 2014
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WJM writes:
All [the linked article by Berlinerblau] does is draw a distinction between secularism and atheism. That secularism is not atheism does not support your contention that it “entails true intellectual freedom for a plurality of beliefs.” Can you provide a quote from that article or any other source that supports your claim?
(which was: "US secularism guarantees your right to freedom to follow the religion of your choice.) Berlinerblau wrote in his article:
What secularism does concern itself with are relations between Church and State. It is a flexible doctrine that can embody a lot of policy positions. Strict separationism is one, but not the only, of those positions. At its core, secularism is deeply suspicious of any entanglement between government and religion.
which is what I was talking about, separation of church and state. Enlightenment ideas that put safeguards into the first amendment such that no religious dogma or orthodoxy could be enforced on individuals by the state.Alicia Renard
December 12, 2014
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RB:
That said, I harbor no doubt that the general picture of the history of life subsequent to the OOL supplied by evolutionary science is correct.
No one cares what you do or don't harbor. We care what you can support and we know that you cannot support "that the general picture of the history of life subsequent to the OOL supplied by evolutionary science is correct." So you lose.Joe
December 12, 2014
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Mung:
How else are we to understand what you wrote?
I meant to weave the passage to which you were responding in with my other statements:
It doesn’t follow from the fact that human beings create representations (“dimensional” or otherwise) that analogous phenomena can’t have arisen from other, natural processes – selection among simpler replicators devoid of “dimensional representation," for example. Of course it remains to be shown if, how and why that process got underway – none of that is assumed, other than as a starting point for the real empirical work. That’s where the science starts, not stops. There are approximately five million trillion trillion bacteria on earth, each an instance of FSCO/I (you claim). We all understand that a solution to the OOL puzzle is far from at hand, although many tantalizing pieces are in the box and some corners and edges have been joined. I expect the problem to be solved within the framework of the natural sciences. But I don't simply assume that – perhaps the problem is insoluble, due not the least to the ~35 million centuries that separate us from those events. As we don’t know the origins of life, the origins of those five million trillion trillion instances cannot be assigned either to design or to natural events unless one assumes a conclusion regarding the very question at issue. That said, I harbor no doubt that the general picture of the history of life subsequent to the OOL supplied by evolutionary science is correct.
This context answers your question.Reciprocating Bill
December 12, 2014
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AR (nb WJM 235): I took time to point out relevant history and state documents on the actual roots of modern liberty and democracy, here above (was it 184 or 5?) https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/religion-and-intelligent-design-theory/#comment-535806 I think some facts there and in the onward linked may prove helpful in adjusting received wisdom towards a more balanced view. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2014
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AR: I am not proposing an analogy between fishing reels and life forms. I have pointed out, using fishing reels as an example, the commonplace reality of functionally specific complex organisation working through interaction to yield functionality, and the linked wiring diagram that leads to the informational content of in effect assembly instructions. I have repeatedly done so, in response to the objections that have tried to dismiss FSCO/I as somehow not an objectively real or relevant feature of the world, and/or that such FSCO/I is not quantifiable informationally. I have done so in the context of Orgel and Wicken extending the same concept and its applicability by recognising that it applies to certain key features of cell based life related to its origin. I have also pointed out the case of the FSCO/I manifest in the piping, unit and instrumentation wiring diagram for a petroleum refinery, which I have compared to the metabolic reaction network of the living cell. I have highlighted the FSCO/I implied in the wireframe mesh for a gear or set of meshing gears, as another case of FSCO/I. I have long since taken time to point out how the prong-height coded information storage tape manifested in mRNA and used to assemble proteins in the ribosome step by step, and the use of the tRNA as an AA- taxi and position-arm device that clicks the next AA in place, is a further example of FSCO/I in action, one paralleled by the FSCO/I involved in punched paper tape controlled NC machines familiar from factories. There are many, many other cases. Notice I have not argued, oh A is like B in some respects so it is like it in other material respects. Though, that may be valid, not all analogies fail. Instead, I am illustrating by relevant examples, the reality of FSCO/I, how it becomes quantifiable in information terms, and how it is in order for Orgel and Wicken to have extended this commonplace of engineering reality to the world of the living cell. What I now find all too revealing, is that in the teeth of such exemplification, there is still a refusal to acknowledge that FSCO/I is objectively real or quantifiable, that is at minimum passed over in silence, and lo and behold, we now see silly remarks about analogies, a term which in this context is utterly loaded. That, is telling -- it sounds a lot like the zero concessions policy even tot he point of absurdity. So, at this point, I can safely leave that insight to the astute onlooker. But, let us proceed. FSCO/I is a highly contingent phenomenon that lives in a world that had a beginning. It is caused. So, what is a relevant causal factor? On trillions of cases observed directly, we know that the cause of FSCO/I based entities is, consistently, design. But, why? The toy example of setting up trays of 500 coins and using each of the 10^57 atoms of our solar system as a coin-flipper and coin observer, helps us see what is going on. Using very fast chem rxn rates, 10^14 obsevations per second for each of the 10^57 atoms provided with trays, we can see that if the total number of flips across 10^17 s is compared to the set of 2^500 = 3.27*10^150 possible arrangements of 500 coins from TTT . . . . T to HHH . . . H, we could compare the matter to sampling one straw from a haystack comparably thick to our galaxy. That is we have sparse, needle in haystack blind search here. The binomial theorem readily tells us what to expect: overwhelming dominance of the results by near 50-50 H/T distributions in no particular order, gibberish in short. (The same example more or less is used in my favourite intro Stat Thermo_d text, L K Nash, to show the phenomenon of a dominant cluster of microstates in a set of possibilities.) So, what happens is that FSCO/I, which by virtue of wiring-diagram specified, interactive function, comes in isolated islands in the config space of possibilities, will be unobservable on blind chance and mechanical necessity because of the sparse needle in haystack search imposed by the relative scarcity of search resources at atomic level, for our solar system or the observed cosmos once we have 500 - 1,000+ bits of information. To give an idea, 1,000 bits is 125 bytes or 143 or so ASCII characters worth of information, not a lot for specifying something like an Abu 6500 C3 reel, or any thing of reasonable complexity linked to configuration-sensitive function based on specific interaction of components. That's not analogical reasoning, it is analysis of config spaces, in effect cut down phase spaces that have momentum terms left out. The sampling/search challenge overwhelms available resources and makes blind chance and/or mechanical necessity -- I used the idea of shaking up a bag full of Abu 6500 C3 parts as an illustration -- maximally implausible as a causal explanation of FSCO/I. This is why the case of OOL, the root of the darwinist tree of life, is so pivotal. For, whether in a warm salty pond or a comet core or whatever, we have the chemistry, physics and especially teh thermodynamics and reaction kinetics of reasonably well known systems to deal with. None of which even remotely plausibly points in the direction of spontaneous origin of relevantly complex molecules, self replicating molecules and especially gated, encapsulated metabolic automata using coded assembly of key proteins, and associated von Neumann kinematic self replication. No wonder OOL studies has come to mutual ruin of the main schools of thought. (Which of course is not typically presented to students, or the general public.) And, OOL is the root of the tree of life. The only empirically known, vera causa certified, analytically plausible causal explanation of FSCO/I is intelligntly directed configuration, aka design. This puts design at the explanatory table from the root on up, and this transforms the whole picture. (And BTW, this issue was in fact put on the table by Paley in Ch II of his nat theol when he moved beyond thinking about a mere watch to one that in the course of its movements that tell time also manages to self replicate based on a built in programming and capability through automation. I have noticed that as a rule the dismissive arguments on Paley and watches etc, generally overlook that he did go on from Ch I to Ch II, and so there is a massive strawman caricature problem in the commonplace dismissive sniffing about mere analogies. Over the past several years, I have noticed that when this is pointed out and even when the relevant discussion is cited in extenso or linked, objectors consistently refuse to actually address it on its merits directly. This seems to point to a problem of the fallacy of the closed indoctrinated mind.) Nor does design in the world of life demand disembodied designers, Craig Venter et al have seen that talking point off. Though, you should reckon with the issue of blindly mechanical computation [based on the FSCO/I of a computational device] vs rationally insightful, logically driven creative contemplation. Those who would reduce minds to brains as neural networks with associated programming, or imagine that digital processors of sufficient complexity, or analogue computers such as the old mechanical integrators etc, or op amp based computational systems, etc escape the force of being blindly mechanical systems working by force not rational insight, face the problem of trying to get North by heading due West. Time to think again. KFkairosfocus
December 11, 2014
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Seriously groovamos, you should learn about developmental biology. It is an interesting field, and knowing about it would help you ask better questions.wd400
December 11, 2014
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So how do all you citizens of the good ole USA feel, now that you are all torturers ?Graham2
December 11, 2014
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Mung:
So why can’t you just stick by what you said?
You’ve confused sticking by my own words with my declining to stick by your misreading of same. Here are my words, taken together:
It doesn’t follow from the fact that human beings create representations (“dimensional” or otherwise) that analogous phenomena can’t have arisen from other, natural processes - selection among simpler replicators devoid of “dimensional representation” as you define it, for example. Of course it remains to be shown if, how and why that process got underway – none of that is assumed, other than as a starting point for the real empirical work. That’s where the science starts, not stops. We all understand that a solution to the OOL puzzle is far from at hand, although many tantalizing pieces are in the box and some corners and edges have been joined. I expect the problem to be solved within the framework of the natural sciences, although probably not in my lifetime, were I made to lay a bet. But I can’t simply assume that – perhaps the problem is insoluble, due not the least to the ~35 million centuries that separate us from those events. That said, I harbor no doubt that the general picture of the history of life subsequent to the OOL supplied by evolutionary science is correct.
In short, we don’t understand the OOL and are justified in making assumptions about same only as a framework for starting the real empirical work, not as a substitute for scientific conclusions (an approach advocated by KF, UB, and others). Therefore, while it is my expectation that the problem will be solved - and can only be solved - within the framework of the natural sciences, I don't assume that a solution will be found. That said, I harbor no doubt that the more general picture of the history of life since the OOL as understood by evolutionary science within a naturalistic framework is correct. You’re bizarre misreading of same:
So you reject evolution (natural events) as an explanation because we don’t know the origin of life? Your argument reduces to this: there is far more that we don’t know than what we do know, therefore we cannot know anything.
Maybe you have found your level, Mung.Reciprocating Bill
December 11, 2014
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William J Murray @ 180
Secularism, in and of itself, guarantees me nothing. China has a secular government and doesn’t tolerate much in the way of religious expression. “Secularism” is not the equivalent of “religious freedom”.
Quite true, secularism per se does not guarantee anything. Another thing it doesn't do, however, is entail a commitment to - or endorsement of - any specific ideology or theology. That implies a tolerance of diverse beliefs and opinions which is equivalent to religious freedom. The intolerance of the Chinese government derives from the obvious similarity between monolithic political ideologies, such as communism or national socialism, and religions. It sustains itself in power by enforcing adherence to its established political doctrines and suppressing dissent just as in a theocracy the same commitment to religious doctrines is compulsory.
The reason I have religious freedom is not because of secularism, but rather because a group of Christians considered it a divine right for people to worship god as they see fit, and considered that right transcendent to all state power.
The reason you have religious freedom is because a group of perceptive Enlightenment thinkers who happened to be Christian - although some only nominally so - recognized that if they wanted to assure religious freedom for themselves they would also have to guarantee it to all others. They knew full well that, at times, parts of Christianity had been as intolerant of different beliefs as we see parts of Islam being today.
Without the concept of transcendent, natural rights, a concept not derivable from meager “secularism”, I would have no individual rights considered to be above the rule of the state. I would just be the property of the secular state to do with as it sees fit.
Much as believers are entirely at the mercy of their chosen god or its self-apppointed Earthly proxies. They have no transcendent rights. They are creatures to be used or snuffed out as their creator sees fit and their treatment, however appalling, will be either justified by their fellows as deserved or attributed to inscrutable divine purpose. Either way, they have no rights which transcend the will of their creator. That being the case, the only other foundation for a concept of overriding human rights is in common needs and interests that it is to the advantage of all to uphold.
It is not secularism that provides my right to freedom of religion, but rather the non-secular worldview that individuals have a transcendent right to liberty and freedom of belief.
Your right to freedom of religion or any other freedom subsists entirely in the acknowledgement of same by your fellows. They are transcendent only in the sense that we agree that they should be insulated against the eddies and currents of shifting political fashions and opinion. They are not to be tampered with for transient sectarian advantage.
This is what your ilk does not understand in its blind pursuit of a secularized society; a government not bound by belief in the transcendent rights of man has no reason not to simply treat us as property, and every justification for doing so.
A government, being an association of human beings, will act in its own self-interests, sometimes enlightened, sometimes not. In a secular and therefore pluralistic society government serves at the pleasure of the electorate. A government that consistently ignores its electorate eventually ceases to be a government. That is the only real check that the governed have over their government and that only applies in a secular democracy. Esoteric notions about transcendent rights of man weigh very little compared with that.Seversky
December 11, 2014
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Axel @ 233
So, it is easy to see that he was never going to discover quantum physics, or a comparably epoch-making paradigm
Yet he did exactly that. Without Richard Feynman, QM would be no where .Me_Think
December 11, 2014
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bornagain77 @ 237
You may want to update your notes [amplituhedron]
Funny that you may want to support a geometric structure that depends on N=4 supersymmetry - which is actually a toy theory- and similar to string theory(10^500 universes, any one?)!
As to QED, there was Feynman’s unease with ‘brushing infinity under the rug’ with his diagrams
Yes. Renormalization is needed when you consider self-energy.
I find it rather comforting to know that it takes an ‘infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time
It does take a lot of logic , which shouldn't be comfortable to ID :-)Me_Think
December 11, 2014
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WD400: You should look into that field if these questions genuinely interest you. You did not give a Darwinian step by step process on how all of these billions of cilia become wired together and function in concert. The truth is you guys cannot propose a coherent scenario about how the numbers of these organelles proliferate over "evolutionary time" in Darwinian fashion and how each stage confers selective advantage which is specifically what I asked of you. Describing something as determining the fate of respiratory epithelium is a non-answer to my question. Telling us that a new this would allow a cilia forming network to be driven by that is a beautiful obfuscation of the insurmountable problem for a Darwinist explanation which by definition would be billions of steps in this case. And we would have a good point to present to students, how obfuscation is the usual tact taken by Darwinists, and a massive failure for reductionism in general. Now the fact that you cannot answer would be in my mind a good subject for science class. But you would have me fired as you imply previously. Correct? Our little conflict here should be banned from its exposure to students? And BTW if you are interested in some STEM knowledge 10^8 + 10^3 is not equal to 10^11, as you mistake it. The point was to get you to explain the selective advantage of 1000 more cilia. Which in itself would not be a slight variation all wired up ready to go according to the Darwinist model I don’t think most secularists would object to a social studies teacher merely bringing up the fact people hold other beliefs. Why don't you dispense with the euphemisms OK? A so-called secularist is a true believer in scientific or philosophical materialism, who is also an activist. Like all true believers, materialists want to see their beliefs become dominant in society. You guys want the dominant belief to be in a self-generated universe, plain and simple, with no evidence for it and punishment for people who don't believe it and express that in class.groovamos
December 11, 2014
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AR @ 230: You do not appear to understand my argument. I will try to help you.
So Barry Arrington proposes advanced alien lifeforms sent out probes containing micro-organisms to seed life around the universe?
I made no such proposal. I merely pointed out that there is no warrant for your dismissal of a material embodied designer on an a priori basis.
So where did these embodied material designers come from? Where did they go? Were they like Craig Venter?
Again, you are missing the point, which is that design by a material embodied agent is not logically impossible and therefore should not be dismissed on an a priori basis. None of these questions needs to be answered to know that proposition is true. Barry:
And the next step is that one need not posit an immaterial supernatural designer to make a design inference regarding a biological structure.
AR:
Well, no. I’m not positing any such immaterial designer; I thought that was something the ID camp came up with.
Then you were under a misapprehension about ID. The theory does not posit that the designer is immaterial. It does not posit that the designer is material. It posits that the designer, whether material or immaterial, designed, and that such design leaves indicia that may be discovered though an empirical investigation. AR:
If you want to develop KF’s analogy about fishing reels, feel free.
No need. KF has developed it sufficiently himself. I merely pointed out that your opposition to his analogy is unfounded. To summarize: KF proposed his fishing reel analogy. You objected to the fishing reel analogy on the ground that a designer must be material. My point is simple and narrow: That objection fails because there is no reason, in principle, why the designer need not be material. Any designer, whether material or immaterial, will leave the same sorts of indicia of design.Barry Arrington
December 11, 2014
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Me_Think at 229 as to:
"of course nothing in QM gets done without Feynman diagrams."
You may want to update your notes:
Bohemian Gravity - Rob Sheldon - September 19, 2013 Excerpt: Quanta magazine carried an article about a hypergeometric object that is as much better than Feynman diagrams as Feynman was better than Heisenberg's S-matrices. But the discoverers are candid about it, "The amplituhedron, or a similar geometric object, could help by removing two deeply rooted principles of physics: locality and unitarity. “Both are hard-wired in the usual way we think about things,” said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and the lead author of the new work, which he is presenting in talks and in a forthcoming paper. “Both are suspect.”" What are these suspect principles? None other than two of the founding principles of materialism--that there do not exist "spooky-action-at-a-distance" forces, and that material causes are the only ones in the universe.,,, http://rbsp.info/PROCRUSTES/bohemian-gravity/
As to QED, there was Feynman's unease with 'brushing infinity under the rug' with his diagrams:
THE INFINITY PUZZLE: Quantum Field Theory and the Hunt for an Orderly Universe Excerpt: In quantum electrodynamics, which applies quantum mechanics to the electromagnetic field and its interactions with matter, the equations led to infinite results for the self-energy or mass of the electron. After nearly two decades of effort, this problem was solved after World War II by a procedure called renormalization, in which the infinities are rolled up into the electron’s observed mass and charge, and are thereafter conveniently ignored. Richard Feynman, who shared the 1965 Nobel Prize with Julian Schwinger and Sin-Itiro Tomonaga for this breakthrough, referred to this sleight of hand as “brushing infinity under the rug.” http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/tackling-infinity
Feynman comments on his unease with '“brushing infinity under the rug” here,,,
“It always bothers me that in spite of all this local business, what goes on in a tiny, no matter how tiny, region of space, and no matter how tiny a region of time, according to laws as we understand them today, it takes a computing machine an infinite number of logical operations to figure out. Now how can all that be going on in that tiny space? Why should it take an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do?" - Richard Feynman – one of the founding fathers of QED (Quantum Electrodynamics) Quote taken from the 6:45 minute mark of the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obCjODeoLVw
I don’t know about Feynman, but as for myself, being a Christian Theist, I find it rather comforting to know that it takes an ‘infinite amount of logic to figure out what one stinky tiny bit of space-time is going to do’:
John1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." of note: ‘the Word’ in John1:1 is translated from ‘Logos’ in Greek. Logos is also the root word from which we derive our modern word logic http://etymonline.com/?term=logic
bornagain77
December 11, 2014
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You wouldn't be fired for asking how something evolved. The answer is that beating cilia are a very ancient part of the eukaryotic cell's took-kit, and much of the machinery for creating them are maintained in metazoa as they are also required for sperm motility. All that you would need is a new cis-regulatory element that allowed the cilia-forming network to be driven by one of the transcription factors that is already involved in determining the fate of respiratory epithelium. There is no reason you'd have to move from 10^8 cilia to 10^11, but fine tuning of a developmental program for a specific tissue-type is a constant pattern in evo-devo. You should look into that field if these questions genuinely interest you.wd400
December 11, 2014
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AR thinks that a link bluff will help her out with her erroneous claim:
[secularism] entails true intellectual freedom for a plurality of beliefs.
Jacques Berlinerblau writes:
As I noted in my forthcoming book, the secular vision was birthed by religious thinkers, such as Martin Luther, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison (the last two, admittedly were idiosyncratic believers, but believers nonetheless).
Your link doesn't support your assertion one bit, AR. All it does is draw a distinction between secularism and atheism. That secularism is not atheism does not support your contention that it "entails true intellectual freedom for a plurality of beliefs." Can you provide a quote from that article or any other source that supports your claim? Your link is much more supportive my position stated above:
Secularism, in and of itself, guarantees me nothing. China has a secular government and doesn’t tolerate much in the way of religious expression. “Secularism” is not the equivalent of “religious freedom”. The reason I have religious freedom is not because of secularism, but rather because a group of Christians considered it a divine right for people to worship god as they see fit, and considered that right transcendent to all state power. Without the concept of transcendent, natural rights, a concept not derivable from meager “secularism”, I would have no individual rights considered to be above the rule of the state. I would just be the property of the secular state to do with as it sees fit.
William J Murray
December 11, 2014
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WD400: I don’t think most secularists would object to a social studies teacher merely bringing up the fact people hold other beliefs. Yes thank you for implying that, conversely, in science class, such speech would get one fired in most states. You guys again are making all the right arguments for us, doing the work for us. Many thanks for doing God's work. If I were the the one to pose a challenge, in a secondary school science class to other teachers at the school, the challenge I referenced above, I would get fired. Same for most college level classes, denied tenure that is. Again the challenge: to describe for me the advent of the tens of billions of cilia in the mammalian breathing passages. I'm asking that right now of you WD400. You tell me how a Darwinian process wired up those billions of cilia. Step by accidental step. How did the moving of the mucus improve and provide selective advantage when the cilium count went from say 10^8 to (10^8 + 10^3) in an offspring and how did those extra 10^3 get wired in accidentally so that they exhibit motility in concert for the purpose of the whole aggregation? Oh that's right you guys don't believe in purpose for anything. Pray tell WD400. And pray assure me that I wouldn't get fired for discussing this to my high school science class.groovamos
December 11, 2014
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Watch this fascinating YouTube video-clip of Feynman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YltEym9H0x4 He makes it clear from the beginning that he has the mindset of the mechanic, or mechanical engineer, who wants to understand the world in the most prosaic way, i.e. via physics, science. If he discovers answer to the larger metaphysical questions, fine, good. But he really doesn't wish to do so, as he intimates towards the end; he is happier not knowing the answers to everything, knowing some things and not others. He seemingly claims that as a virtue, and its antithesis, as an indication of being driven by fear - which he does not feel at all, at least, at that quite mature stage of his life. But he very much tends to express his views with humility, though he has a very limited, inchoate understanding of the whole topic of religion. So, it is easy to see that he was never going to discover quantum physics, or a comparably epoch-making paradigm, though he was able to exploit his understanding of QM to enormous effect. Planck, on the other hand, who was the proto-pioneer of QM, was a different kettle of fish, altogether: 'As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.' ... from Wikiquote He could hardly have possessed a more propitious mindset for discovering quantum mechanics. Yet he was forced to do so, by the facts, even though his very conservative instincts made him baulk at countenancing it. Bohr obviously relished it. He was a great celebrity in Denmark and, like Einstein, became virtually a cult figure to the public at large, surely because they both 'shot down in flames' the cock-sure, still regnant cockamamie paradigm of the atheist, scientific establishment and taught them the world was more mysterious than they, Horatio or Laertes could ever have imagined. Religion and science mutually antagonistic? What a joke!Axel
December 11, 2014
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Me_Think, Feynman's atheism was of a much more humble and open kind. He accepted that QM is profoundly mysterious, indeed, completely absurd to the analytical intelligence, in its proliferation of paradoxes - oxymorons which just happen to be true. Were it not so, he would be a double-dyed hypocrite, and a parasite on the paradigm discovered by better men than he, and around whose necks he would have otherwise (when his income would not be affected), have been an albatross, an enemy of QM and modern physics. Remember, to the unequivocal materialists, all will one day be explained - and for sure, matter produced everything, even mind, nay intuition. This, mark you, despite the mathematically proven findings of QM, seemingly, for ever being supplemented by new research findings. I've only seen, I think, two references to 'paradoxes' - the favoured weasel-word of atheists, inappropriately applied to paradoxes, as being 'counter-intuitive'. Paradoxes have nothing to do with intuition, they could not be further removed from it, since they are solely matters of logic, or rather, 'illogic', to the limited, analytical intelligence upon which the atheist is ever doomed to rely. Perhaps, the most comical aspect of this invocation of intuition is that they evidently thought to co-opt the notion of the man, himself, Albert Einstein, supreme theist and Intelligent Design champion, who famously stated that he rated 'intuition' higher than 'intelligence'. I was going to say that materialists wouldn't know intuition if it hit them over the head. But of course, at least, as barmy materialists, they could not at all dismiss the idea of intuition's being able to hit them over the head, if chance were given enough time and found the 'again chance-produced' inclination to do so.Axel
December 11, 2014
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WJM writes
[secularism] entails true intellectual freedom for a plurality of beliefs.
Can you support this assertion?
Try this for starters. I broadly agree with Berlinerblau.Alicia Renard
December 11, 2014
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Barry Arrington (210 December 10, 2014 at 12:44 pm) writes: AR @ 206:
There are no material candidate design agents around three billion or so years ago.
You don’t know that. Those, like atheist Leslie Orgel, who believe in directed panspermia would disagree with you.
So Barry Arrington proposes advanced alien lifeforms sent out probes containing micro-organisms to seed life around the universe? Really? And why do we need the aliens. An impact might have blasted pieces of some planet teeming with microbes into space and a piece ended up on Earth. It extends the time period for simple life to have got going by billions of years.
I’ll go along with [the assertion that Craig Venter is not immaterial]. Where does that get us?
It gets us to the conclusion that there is no reason to exclude embodied material designers from candidates for “designer” of biological structures on an a priori basis, as you seem to want to do.
So where did these embodied material designers come from? Where did they go? Were they like Craig Venter?
And the next step is that one need not posit an immaterial supernatural designer to make a design inference regarding a biological structure.
Well, no. I'm not positing any such immaterial designer; I thought that was something the ID camp came up with. If you want to develop KF's analogy about fishing reels, feel free.Alicia Renard
December 11, 2014
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Axel @228
I disagree. At that level, paradox is virtually ubiquitous and immanent – which is why your side would never have discovered QM in a month of Sundays.
It is 'our side' (Richard Feynman) which discovered QM's principle of least action, QED, Quantum field theory,and of course nothing in QM gets done without Feynman diagrams.Me_Think
December 11, 2014
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'Me_Think #227 'It is about how every Standard particles ( of which every single thing in universe is made) work and interact. It is not a ‘show business’ phenomenon !' My reference to QM as a 'show-business phenomenon' was simply a satirical-sounding, but accurate statement of the dismissive implication of another term used by an atheist poster. Virtually synonymous with it. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find it yet. "Something fundamental to particles has to be materialistic, so there is no need to discard ‘atheistic hypothesis’" I disagree. At that level, paradox is virtually ubiquitous and immanent - which is why your side would never have discovered QM in a month of Sundays. And why, moreover, that and the exact correspondence of non-mathematically proven pseudo-science with stamp-collecting as a sound metaphor, cannot be emphasized and repeated often enough by Christian and deistic scientistsAxel
December 11, 2014
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Axel @ 209
... since the implication of QM as an ephemeral, show-business phenomenon, is perfectly consistent with atheism, the world-view giving rise to materialism... ...since QM’s confirmed mathematical proofs are unassailable, and as such, continue to demand the renunciation by atheists of their outdated, discredited, atheistic hypothesis....
QM is about fundamental particles. It is about how every Standard particles ( of which every single thing in universe is made) work and interact. It is not a 'show business' phenomenon ! Something fundamental to particles has to be materialistic, so there is no need to discard 'atheistic hypothesis'Me_Think
December 11, 2014
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