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Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

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The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
velikovskys said:
Sure seems to be a lot of discussion about it.
So? The broader implications of a theory shouldn't be discussed? I don't have a problem discussing and debating the political and social implications of a theory; what is logically unsound is the view that such implications, or the character and motivations of those that promote a theory, are reasons in themselves to dismiss a theory as non-scientific.William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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You IDers wonder why you're not taken seriously by honest, sane people. Well, the fact that you're crackpot liars is why.Pachyaena
December 7, 2014
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Splatter #20 "I think that the act of trying to apply out intelligence to something does lead to a range of nebulous descriptions" If this is true all sciences and technology (not ID only) fail because what are they but "trying to apply out intelligence to describe" and construct. I don't understand why sciences and technology can deal with intelligence, instead ID cannot. When intelligence is managed by science is ok, when intelligence is managed by ID is not. When science deals with intelligence it does not matter what consciousness is, when ID deals with intelligence it does matter what consciousness is. Double standard?niwrad
December 7, 2014
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Gary S. Gaulin @ 31
I can network with others and sometimes contact through email when I have a model a respected scientist would be genuinely interested in and will without my asking take the time to write back about
How do you expect anyone to consider your theory seriously ? Please read your own theory. Right there at start, your genetic algorithm chart shows individual fitness , desired fitness etc. There is only genotype fitness in population - not individual fitness, and there is no 'desired fitness'. Fitness is relative and depends on environment. How can your theory be any good if you have poor grasp of basics.Me_Think
December 7, 2014
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outside of the cell, there is only one single source of memory being encoded with dimensional representations The physics surrounding such systems are coherent and unambiguous. There is no second place finisher
Could you elaborate ? What dimensions ? What memory and what physics?Me_Think
December 7, 2014
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Bill, outside of the cell, there is only one single source of memory being encoded with dimensional representations -- and that is through intelligent action. The physics surrounding such systems are coherent and unambiguous. There is no second place finisher. You want to discount this knowledge under the objection that, as you say, ”we don’t know what natural circumstances gave/give rise to replicators capable of Darwinian evolution”. I’m surprised that you don’t see the fallacy inherent in that position. I might otherwise be merely amused that you’d point to me as the one assuming his conclusion -- except in this case, what you are proposing is actually a serious affront to science itself. The point of contention here is that there are no natural circumstances that give rise to autonomous self-replicators capable of Darwinian evolution. This is a proposition that must be mediated by evidence, where a cause must be competently demonstrated to be capable of the effect in question, and is subject to falsification at the hands of any opponent who wishes to do so. In the case of dimensional representations, the physics involved match all instances of intelligent action, and match no instances of “natural circumstances” whatsoever. This central point is not even in contention. It is therefore absolutely preposterous to assert that “we shall treat your evidence as though it were illegitimate while we try to find some of our own”. That position is a science stopper extraordinaire; if your opponents are correct, you won’t find any evidence of your own. C’mon Bill, tell me you can recognize this most obvious fallacy. I hope that you will not, in the light of full consideration, attempt to justify this position further. Just let it go. I would hate to think that in your pursuit of counterarguments to ID, you would openly fail the most obvious logic that makes science work to begin with. If you do, then both the evidence, and any discussion of evidence, is entirely moot. Your choice.Upright BiPed
December 6, 2014
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KS, 30: On the views, ideological comitments and linked agendas of the "Science" and "Science Edu" establishment, I suggest: EXHB 1: US, National Science Teachers Association: >>The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts [--> note the controlling philosophical commitment] and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements [--> strawman caricature, ever since Plato in The Laws bk X, the real alternatives are nature [= blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, and the ART-ificial, both of which are known to leave readily investigated empirical traces that in other contexts where the a priori evolutionary materialism is not at stake, are routinely accepted] in the production of scientific knowledge. [NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000.] >> EXHB 2: US, NAS: >> In science, explanations must be based on naturally occurring phenomena [--> a subtler form of the same a priori]. Natural causes are, in principle, reproducible and therefore can be checked independently by others [--> and intelligently directed configuration -- aka design, aka ART -- is not in principle reproducible? What then is reverse engineering all about? Patents law? Copyright? Intellectual property infringement law?]. If explanations are based on purported forces that are outside of nature [--> again the supernatural strawman is injected, but more subtly], scientists have no way of either confirming or disproving those explanations. Any scientific explanation has to be testable — there must be possible observational consequences that could support the idea but also ones that could refute it. [--> yes, and show FSCO/I by blind chance and mechanical necessity and design theory on the world of life would instantly collapse] Unless a proposed explanation is framed in a way that some observational evidence could potentially count against it [--> In what way does, FSCO/I beyond 500 - 1,000 bits will not be found empirically to come about other than by intelligently directed configuration not count as a rather stringent and testable observational test?], that explanation cannot be subjected to scientific testing. [Science, Evolution and Creationism, 2008, p. 10 >> EXHB 3: Lewontin's key admission regarding Sagan ad the elites of science >> the problem [--> note, agenda with both a scientific and an educational [indoctrinational] component] is to get them [hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> this is testimony on the deeply entrenched views of the scientific elites, from one of its members who knows by personal acquaintance and/or by reputation], it is self-evident [--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset by using a loaded strawman caricature, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question by the elites . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [--> agenda again.] [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Emphases and notes added. If you imagine this is "quote-mined" -- a common accusation, kindly cf the more detailed cite and annotations here.] >> Philip Johnson's retort to Lewontin is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
kairosfocus
December 6, 2014
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Congregate, cf just above, we can start with the Orgel metric [which is in reality a very old and commonplace approach to measuring info, using chain length of y/n q's to specify state . . . cf the ubiquitous file size metrics on your PC]. Beyond, as Info Theory also documents, lie statistically based metrics linked to the informational entropy. The metrics you mention are rooted in that work that dates back to the 1920's in some respects [Hartley etc and the log metric of info] but which found first major formulation in 1948. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2014
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RB, 34:
we don’t know what natural circumstances gave/give rise to replicators capable of Darwinian evolution, and therefore have no basis from which to conclude that such replicators, or certain forms of replicator, are unlikely to have arisen from other than deliberate artifice.
I must strongly disagree with the assumption that by some unknown mechanism, the hoped for but equally unobserved self replicating molecules did arise and of course then went on to become living cells. First, we have a base of trillions of cases on the origin of FSCO/I (which would be required), and every time we directly know the cause it is intelligently directed configuration -- aka design. This is readily backed up by analysis of a sparse atomic and temporal resources constrained solar system or observed cosmos scale search of config spaces for 500 - 1,000+ bits of complexity. That is, we have very good inductive and analytical reason to accept that such is a reliable signature of design. Indeed, your we do not know as cited is an implicit admission of that. For, you mean you are unable to show empirical evidence that suffices to pass the FSCO/I threshold of 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity emerging by blind chance and mechanical necessity. But you are still putting forth a dominant narrative rooted in an institutionally dominant worldview, a priori evolutionary materialism, and/or its fellow travellers. I therefore first note that in science we have no good reason to impose a prioris like that, and our hypotheses must be subject to empirical tests or else they become ideological speculation with no proper inductive warrant. On historical or origins topics in science, we must always remember the force of the vera causa principle: before reverting to claimed causes for traces of the remote past, we ought to show their capacity in the present to cause the like effects. Your remarks above constitute an admission of vera causa failure. But, full marks for actual admission, you are not here indulging the too common zero concessions rhetorical policy. That is, there is a basis for reasonable discussion, which is why I am taking a pause having popped by to see how WJM has been doing. Second, we do know and for a long time have known very well the thermodynamics and reaction kinetics relevant to formation of energetically uphill, complex, information-rich molecules [cf. here [the download is 70 MB] for example, from 1984 by Thaxton et al, as an early relevant critical review and proposal that actually led to the emergence of design theory on the world of life (pace, the NCSE agit-prop myths about evading court decisions)]. And, we can directly observe in the traces of the past of origin -- the living cell -- just how carefully controlled and organised the environment is, to allow the formation and function of the molecules of life. The role of ATP and the elaborate nanomachine involved in its synthesis, is a key marker of the point. Further to this, we observe with Orgel, 1973 (despite his hopes, for the very von Neumann self replicator facility that is so often used to try to project an evolutionary scenario to answer the problem is what now has to be accounted for on physics and chemistry of warm salty ponds, or deep water volcano vents, or comet cores or the like):
. . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. [--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002] One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196. Of course, that immediately highlights OOL, where the required self-replicating entity is part of what has to be explained, a notorious conundrum for advocates of evolutionary materialism; one, that has led to mutual ruin documented by Shapiro and Orgel between metabolism first and genes first schools of thought. Behe would go on to point out that irreducibly complex structures are not credibly formed by incremental evolutionary processes and Menuge et al would bring up serious issues for the suggested exaptation alternative, cf. his challenges C1 - 5 in the just linked. Finally, Dembski highlights that CSI comes in deeply isolated islands T in much larger configuration spaces W, for biological systems functional islands. That puts up serious questions for origin of dozens of body plans reasonably requiring some 10 - 100+ mn bases of fresh genetic information to account for cell types, tissues, organs and multiple coherently integrated systems.]
By 1979, Wicken would add:
‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an [originally . . . ] external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and notes added. Nb: “originally” is added to highlight that for self-replicating systems, the blue print can be built-in.)]
(The actual roots of the descriptive abbreviation, functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I, should be patent.) Of course both Orgel and Wicken hoped that "natural selection" would be an adequate answer. But in fact at OOL, we have to account inter alia for origin of self-replication on realistic physics, chem and thermodynamics, per blind chance and mechanical necessity, if the inference from FSCO/I to its inductively strong known cause, design, is to be avoided. This has not been done nor is it plausible on the physics and chemistry, where future developments will have to be compatible with what is already well established. At least, we here have a basis for serious onward discussion on the merits. Therefore, kudos. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2014
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Wjm: Specious wrt whether or not the ToE is valid science, yes. Sure seems to be a lot of discussion about it.velikovskys
December 6, 2014
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congregate:
Unfortunately evidence of the state of the universe is difficult to come by. But I’ve yet to see an IDer even willing to put forward and a hypothesis as to when a design event occurred.
I beg your pardon: https://sites.google.com/site/intelligenceprograms/Home/Causation.jpg And since its Sunday I must include this timeline: https://sites.google.com/site/intelligenceprograms/Home/Causation.GIF Now you can honestly say that you saw an IDer even willing to put forward a whole computer model to experiment with what happens when a design event occurred. Not bad theory for a creotard eh?Gary S. Gaulin
December 6, 2014
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UB:
ID has the capacity to follow this same accepted methodology to identify intelligent action at the origin of life.
The problem with this analogy is that we have very good information from radio astronomy, physics (etc.) regarding natural astronomical phenomena and the forms of radiation they produce. From that same body of knowledge we know the sorts of radiation that are unlikely to be naturally produced, and that therefore are candidates for detection and even deliberate transmission. It is that background knowledge of natural phenomena that justifies the section of this particular operational definition. Without it the inference would be unjustified. But this is exactly what we don’t know about the OOL - we don’t know what natural circumstances gave/give rise to replicators capable of Darwinian evolution, and therefore have no basis from which to conclude that such replicators, or certain forms of replicator, are unlikely to have arisen from other than deliberate artifice. Therefore the existence/discovery of such replicators, nor their characteristics, can’t serve as a signal of, or operational definition for, deliberate artifice in a manner analogous to narrow band radiation for SETI. To assert otherwise is to assume your conclusion.Reciprocating Bill
December 6, 2014
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WJM at 21- Please forgive me for allowing rhetoric to slip into my internet commenting. What metric are you referring to, and what scientist came up with it? Several candidates have been describe here at UD, I think. Whichever you are referring to, it has not only not been accepted by the mainstream consensus, it has not been accepted by even a tiny portion of working scientists. Is there a metric that any two IDers can agree on? In the last sentence of your comment you seem to say that IDers have attempted to create this metric and are attempting to create it. Does that conflict with your earlier suggestion that the metric is valid even though it has been rejected by mainstream consensus? In the portion of my comment that was not clear, I meant to refer to the fact that to the extent these metrics are based on the probability of an event, the proponents of ID never make any effort to determine the realistic probability of the event occurring. For example, if the event is the appearance of a bacterial flagellum, is the event the appearance of a bacterial flagellum today, as part of the "birth" of a new clone of an existing bacterium? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. If the event is the appearance of the first bacterial flagellum, the probability is entirely dependent on the state of the inverse at that time. If it happened at a time when there were no bacteria in existence, that would point strongly to design. But if it happened at a time when there were trillions of bacteria on earth, many of which had all but one of the parts of the flagellum, the calculation comes out differently. Unfortunately evidence of the state of the universe is difficult to come by. But I've yet to see an IDer even willing to put forward and a hypothesis as to when a design event occurred.congregate
December 6, 2014
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congregate, if ID is not science, then neither is Darwinian evolution since they both use the exact same scientific method, Dr. Meyer, who has a PhD in exactly this area of study (historical science), is more than qualified to know if they are epistemologically equivalent or not. Quoting Seversky for support of your position is not winning any points with me since I have caught him lying, and playing semantics, many, many, times. You are the one who said "everyone believes a 747 is designed", I merely used your own benchmark to show that a 'simple cell' far exceeds that threshold. Too late to back off now. If you 'don’t see any evidence of any design intervention in the process of development' you have never really looked at development:
HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”. And further: “It’s almost as if every mRNA [an intermediate between a gene and a corresponding protein] coming out of the nucleus knows where it’s going” (Travis 2011),,, Further, the billion protein molecules in a cell are virtually all capable of interacting with each other to one degree or another; they are subject to getting misfolded or “all balled up with one another”; they are critically modified through the attachment or detachment of molecular subunits, often in rapid order and with immediate implications for changing function; they can wind up inside large-capacity “transport vehicles” headed in any number of directions; they can be sidetracked by diverse processes of degradation and recycling... and so on without end. Yet the coherence of the whole is maintained. The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2
As with your satellite example, once again I used your very own threshold to show that evidence for God creating something (the entire universe)is available. That was your threshold not mine!, But instead of being honest, you turn it around and sneer that ID is 'religious',, That was your Threshold not mine. Moreover you ignored the fact I pointed out that Darwinism itself is built upon (faulty) Theological premises. i.e. Darwinism is 'RELIGIOUS" congregate, color me unimpressed with the honesty and integrity you've displayed thus far. but so be it, it is you who will have to give account to God for your actions and words, not I. All I can do is hope and pray that you become more honest to the evidence and to yourself.bornagain77
December 6, 2014
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Also to Learned Hand:
“Mainstream science has already used an operationalized definition of intelligent action in order to conduct valid science.” What is it?
Not to brag or self-promote but the answer to what is it is well enough answered by just the mainstream science IDeas getting around from being at places like this and elsewhere: http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb/scripts/BrowseCategoryOrSearchResults.asp?txtCriteria=gary+gaulin&lngWId=1 http://intelligencegenerator.blogspot.com/ I can network with others and sometimes contact through email when I have a model a respected scientist would be genuinely interested in and will without my asking take the time to write back about. It's all together very valid testable science with an operationalized definition of intelligent cause/action and all the rest ID theory is premised to develop. Such a thing being a noncontroversy in non-Darwinian areas of science might be having more impact than you will ever know, just by the way its good example makes protests against the theory look ridiculous.Gary S. Gaulin
December 6, 2014
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Upright Biped:
...but we needn’t kid ourselves — because the evidence would be so sharp and unambiguous, it would never be allowed in mainstream science. It’s just a simple fact that in 2014, science is not prepared to allow ID a test that would be so immediate, and whose results would so clearly and fundamentally illuminate how materialism must assume its conclusion against contrary evidence.
That alone earns you 80 points on the Crackpot Index scale:
34. 40 points for claiming that the "scientific establishment" is engaged in a "conspiracy" to prevent your work from gaining its well-deserved fame, or suchlike. 36. 40 points for claiming that when your theory is finally appreciated, present-day science will be seen for the sham it truly is.
PS When is your website coming online?keith s
December 6, 2014
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BA at 17- My first statement was that ID is not a scientific theory. You have argued that it is scientific, but not shown that it is a theory. Seversky at 24 puts my thought more clearly than I did. You imply that I suggested that the threshold for inferring design is the integrated functional complexity of a 747. I did not mean to suggest that. In my opinion it is plausible that integrated functional complexity could arise through non-design processes. I think that a mature human being has much more integrated functional complexity than single cell from which it develops, but I don't see any evidence of any design intervention in the process of development. As to Evolution being proven astronomically unlikely by Wistar attendees, their calculations haven't convinced many people since 1966. I think if they were really plausible the word would have gotten out by now. In 17 you point out that our satellites can show us God creating the universe. In 18 you point out that ID is not religious. Okey dokey.congregate
December 6, 2014
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LH, SETI uses an operational definition based upon our universal experience of both natural and intelligent causes. They operationalize intelligent action as a physical capacity, i.e. "the capacity to send a narrow-band signal detectable from earth". In using this operational definition, they make a clear distinction between those things that can be explained by natural unguided causes and those things that are a measurable consequence of intelligent action. And should they receive a narrow-band signal of non-terrestrial origin, they will immediately accept it as positive evidence of an intelligent source. Furthermore, this evidence will be accepted without any additional knowledge about the source or characteristics of the intelligence. The presence of a narrow-band signal will, by itself, be considered an unambiguous identification of intelligent action in the cosmos, and will be subject to falsification only if a natural unguided source is shown to be capable of creating the effect. ID has the capacity to follow this same accepted methodology to identify intelligent action at the origin of life, but we needn't kid ourselves -- because the evidence would be so sharp and unambiguous, it would never be allowed in mainstream science. It's just a simple fact that in 2014, science is not prepared to allow ID a test that would be so immediate, and whose results would so clearly and fundamentally illuminate how materialism must assume its conclusion against contrary evidence.Upright BiPed
December 6, 2014
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Your whole article was well said, William J Murray.Gary S. Gaulin
December 6, 2014
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"Mainstream science has already used an operationalized definition of intelligent action in order to conduct valid science." What is it?Learned Hand
December 6, 2014
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"Mainstream science has already used an operationalized definition of intelligent action in order to conduct valid science." What is it?Learned Hand
December 6, 2014
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Mainstream science has already used an operationalized definition of intelligent action in order to conduct valid science. The objections to ID thus far on this thread don't seem to amount to much more than a double standard.Upright BiPed
December 6, 2014
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Can there be a scientific research program that investigates the nature of intelligent design, that tries to identify and describe those traits of designed objects which distinguish them from the non-designed, that tries to incorporate that data into diagnostic tools which will enable us to reliably discriminate between nature and artefact, regardless of who the designer might have been? I see no reason why not. Is there such a program? That depends on what you mean by "research program". Can a movement which commits far more of its resources to advocacy than it does to laboratory or theoretical research be so credited? I think not. Is there a Theory of Intelligent Design? Creationist and philosopher Paul Nelson didn't think so back in 2005:
Easily the biggest challenge facing the ID community is to develop a full-fledged theory of biological design. We don't have such a theory right now, and that's a real problem.
Has anything really changed since then? Proponents of ID usually characterize it as something like the following:
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.
But that is not a theory, it's a statement of belief. In science, a theory is required both to describe and explain how a phenomenon works. ID is based on analogy. It points to various features of living creatures and argues that they have the appearance of design. Why do they have the appearance of design? Because they look a bit like things that we design and they look so complex that it is inconceivable that they could be the product of unguided, natural processes. In other words, if they aren't natural they must be artificial. Unfortunately, that is essentially an inference to "who" not "how". Scientific theories are about "how".Seversky
December 6, 2014
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velikovskys said:
True, which makes the argument that The Theory of Evolution leading to genocide and Nazis and eugenics a specious argument as well. Correct?
Specious wrt whether or not the ToE is valid science, yes.William J Murray
December 6, 2014
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Wjm: Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory True, which makes the argument that The Theory of Evolution leading to genocide and Nazis and eugenics a specious argument as well. Correct? Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific. You are correct ,that is not why ID is not a scientific theory.velikovskys
December 6, 2014
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congregate said:
You say the only pertinent question is whether a reliable metric exists. That’s easy to answer. So far IDers Have not been able to come up with any that have been convincing to a scientific audience.
Please note your use of rhetoric, whether intentional or not. Those that came up with the metric are scientists. Perhaps you mean that the metric has not been accepted by the mainstream consensus. That is irrelevant to the argument for or against ID, which is about the merits, not about whether a consensus has been reached on a discerning metric.
I think the question of plausibility remains pertinent as well. Obviously also IDers have a higher standard for plausibility with respect to non-design processes than mainstreamers do. IDers also tend to judge plausibility unrealistically. They compare some biological feature with an undifferentiated universe and say well B obviously can’t have come from A. But the mainstream position is not that B came from A, it is that B came from almost B, which came from almost almost B. IDers declare that the appearance of some thing is implausible without saying what they think the universe was like before the thing appeared.
I have no idea what part of ID argument you think you are addressing here. Jerad said:
Do you have any examples of living objects or systems that could only have been designed by human intellect?
Human intellect? This is the kind of game-playing semantics that undermines the capacity for honest debate. Some patterns found in crop circles are obviously not natural. Humans have artificially selected for all kinds of breeds of animals that would quickly disappear if humans were removed from the equation. If we found a crop circle pattern etched in stone on a distant world that had never been visited by humans, would you conclude that humans intellect was responsible for the pattern? Nonsense. I wish there would be one honest person on the anti-ID side that would just stop the semantic, diversionary obstructionism. Intelligent design exists as a causal agency that can produce artifacts qualitatively different from what nature & chance can plausibly produce. Humans have this commodity. If we ran into artifacts generated by intelligent aliens, we would expect to be able to discern them as such. If we're honest, it isn't a question of if ID exists, or if it can produce qualitatively different kinds of artifacts; it's just a question of how to go about formally making the distinction. Once we're past that ideological road block, we can start figuring out what the best way would be to make such a determination, which is exactly what IDists have attempted and are attempting to do.William J Murray
December 6, 2014
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Nirwad: I think that the act of trying to apply out intelligence to something does lead to a range.of nebulous descriptions, because we're not really sure what that conscious activity constitutes. Is it natural(istic) forces at work, or something more? We know what intelligence is by acquaintance only - that's half the problem. Congregate: the scientific consensus that insists that things have reached this point by random increments is one of those blind watchmaker arguments I mentioned. Dembski and others have buried those. It amazes me that people rest any weight on them. Jerad: if it takes human intelligence to design inanimate artifacts, it stands to reason it takes a greater intelligence to create living things, which are more spectacular. But this only holds if we show that human intelligence is more than natural unguided laws at work.Splatter
December 6, 2014
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WJM #4
For example we know for an observed fact that this text, a battleship, and a 747 are not sufficiently causally explained by unguided forces; they are explicitly, scientifically known to require the artifice of intelligent, designing agencies (humans).
Those are all inanimate examples. Do you have any examples of living objects or systems that could only have been designed by human intellect? I don't think I'm being overly picky here. I think this is an important distinction. We have lots of recorded, observed examples of human design implementation of inanimate objects. How far from that can we extrapolate? Can we assume an ancient designer of biological systems from that without any further supporting evidence?Jerad
December 6, 2014
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I'll skip the next paragragh on Dembski (needs a little clarification),, as to the last paragraph,,
The religiousness of ID and/or its proponents is indeed irrelevant to its scientific validity. But its lack of scientific validity indicates that those who want to teach it in US public schools are mostly motivated by religion. (WJM may be an exception here).
Actually, contrary to what you may believe, Intelligent Design is far less reliant on Theological premises than Darwinism is.,,,
Methodological Naturalism: A Rule That No One Needs or Obeys - Paul Nelson - September 22, 2014 Excerpt: It is a little-remarked but nonetheless deeply significant irony that evolutionary biology is the most theologically entangled science going. Open a book like Jerry Coyne's Why Evolution is True (2009) or John Avise's Inside the Human Genome (2010), and the theology leaps off the page. A wise creator, say Coyne, Avise, and many other evolutionary biologists, would not have made this or that structure; therefore, the structure evolved by undirected processes. Coyne and Avise, like many other evolutionary theorists going back to Darwin himself, make numerous "God-wouldn't-have-done-it-that-way" arguments, thus predicating their arguments for the creative power of natural selection and random mutation on implicit theological assumptions about the character of God and what such an agent (if He existed) would or would not be likely to do.,,, ,,,with respect to one of the most famous texts in 20th-century biology, Theodosius Dobzhansky's essay "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (1973). Although its title is widely cited as an aphorism, the text of Dobzhansky's essay is rarely read. It is, in fact, a theological treatise. As Dilley (2013, p. 774) observes: "Strikingly, all seven of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. In fact, without God-talk, the geneticist's arguments for evolution are logically invalid. In short, theology is essential to Dobzhansky's arguments.",, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/09/methodological_1089971.html Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of theology? - Dilley S. - 2013 Abstract This essay analyzes Theodosius Dobzhansky's famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution," in which he presents some of his best arguments for evolution. I contend that all of Dobzhansky's arguments hinge upon sectarian claims about God's nature, actions, purposes, or duties. Moreover, Dobzhansky's theology manifests several tensions, both in the epistemic justification of his theological claims and in their collective coherence. I note that other prominent biologists--such as Mayr, Dawkins, Eldredge, Ayala, de Beer, Futuyma, and Gould--also use theology-laden arguments. I recommend increased analysis of the justification, complexity, and coherence of this theology. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23890740 "Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint, and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it, the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today." Ruse, M., How evolution became a religion: creationists correct? Darwinians wrongly mix science with morality, politics, National Post, pp. B1, B3, B7 (May 13, 2000)
In this following video Dr. William Lane Craig is surprised to find that evolutionary biologist Dr. Ayala uses the theological argument of ‘bad design’ to support Darwinian evolution and invites him to present evidence, any positive evidence at all, that Darwinian evolution can do what he claims it can:
Refuting The Myth Of 'Bad Design' vs. Intelligent Design - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIzdieauxZg
Here, at about the 55:00 minute mark in the following video, Phillip Johnson sums up his, in my opinion, excellent lecture by noting that the refutation of his book, 'Darwin On Trial', in the Journal Nature, the most prestigious science journal in the world, was a theological argument about what God would and would not do and therefore Darwinism must be true, and the critique from Nature was not a refutation based on any substantiating scientific evidence for Darwinism that one would expect to be brought forth in such a prestigious venue:
Darwinism On Trial (Phillip E. Johnson) – lecture video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwj9h9Zx6Mw
In fact, in the twisted world of Darwinian reasoning, Dr. John Avise used the fact that mutations are overwhelmingly detrimental, which is actually a powerful scientific argument against Darwinism, as a theological argument for Darwinism since, according to Darwinian theology, God would never allow such things as detrimental mutations:
It Is Unfathomable That a Loving Higher Intelligence Created the Species – Cornelius Hunter – June 2012 Excerpt: “Approximately 0.1% of humans who survive to birth carry a duplicon-related disability, meaning that several million people worldwide currently are afflicted by this particular subcategory of inborn metabolic errors. Many more afflicted individuals probably die in utero before their conditions are diagnosed. Clearly, humanity bears a substantial health burden from duplicon-mediated genomic malfunctions. This inescapable empirical truth is as understandable in the light of mechanistic genetic operations as it is unfathomable as the act of a loving higher intelligence. [112]” – Dr. John Avise – “Inside The Human Genome: A Case For Non-Intelligent Design” There you have it. Evil exists and a loving higher intelligence wouldn’t have done it that way. – Dr. Hunter http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/06/awesome-power-behind-evolution-it-is.html Inside the Human Genome: A Case for Non-Intelligent Design – Pg. 57 By John C. Avise Excerpt: “Another compilation of gene lesions responsible for inherited diseases is the web-based Human Gene Mutation Database (HGMD). Recent versions of HGMD describe more than 75,000 different disease causing mutations identified to date in Homo-sapiens.” I went to the mutation database website cited by John Avise and found: Mutation total (as of 2014-05-02) – 148,413 http://www.hgmd.cf.ac.uk/ac/
Contrary to what Dr. Avise may believe, such an overwhelming rate of detrimental mutations is NOT a point of evidence in favor of Darwinism! In fact, it is a very powerful scientific argument against Darwinian claims,,, That this fact would even have to be pointed out to Darwinists is a sad testimony to how warped Darwinian thinking truly is in regards to the science at hand.bornagain77
December 6, 2014
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congregate at 11:
"There is no scientific theory of intelligent design as of yet."
That statement is false. Intelligent Design is based on the exact same method of science that Charles Darwin himself used:
Stephen Meyer - The Scientific Basis Of Intelligent Design - video https://vimeo.com/32148403 "The central argument of my book is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question." Stephen Meyer - earned his Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of science from Cambridge University for a dissertation on the history of origin-of-life biology and the methodology of the historical sciences. Meyer-Marshall Debate (On the Cambrian Explosion) - Dec. 4, 2013: Excerpt: Meyer pointed out that Marshall’s position reversed the requirement of the historical scientific method as pioneered by Darwin and Lyell, both of whom insisted that our present knowledge of cause and effect should constrain our theorizing about the evolutionary past. Meyer said that Marshall’s willingness to jettison that principle reflected his own prior commitment to a materialistic worldview. (Marshall had previously in his review and in the debate, accused Meyer of allowing his theistic perspective and motivation to color his analysis of the evidence.) Here’s what Meyer said in reply: "Charles is actually revealing that he has some deeper metaphysical commitments of his own. The move he made in the review, where he said “these developmental gene regulatory networks, yes they can’t be perturbed but they must have been perturbed in the past,” what he ends up doing there is he ends up jettisoning basic principles of the historical scientific method where we are enjoined to look for causes now in operation. Since we don’t have causes in operation that can produce the kind of complexity that we need to build a body plan — the informational complexity, the circuitry, etc. — we say well maybe things could have been different in the past. And I think what that [reveals] is a prior commitment to at least methodological materialism." -Stephen Meyer http://www.discovery.org/csc/medved/?p=7001
as to:
Some things look, to some people, as though they were designed. Some things look designed to everyone: 747s, etc.
If the threshhold for EVERYONE inferring design is simply surpassing the integrated functional complexity of a 747, then, since the integrated functional complexity in life far exceeds that of a 747, then EVERYONE ought to infer that life was Intelligently designed:
"To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometres in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the portholes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings with find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity. We would see endless highly organized corridors and conduits branching in every direction away from the perimeter of the cell, some leading to the central memory bank in the nucleus and others to assembly plants and processing units. The nucleus of itself would be a vast spherical chamber more than a kilometer in diameter, resembling a geodesic dome inside of which we would see, all neatly stacked together in ordered arrays, the miles of coiled chains of the DNA molecules. A huge range of products and raw materials would shuttle along all the manifold conduits in a highly ordered fashion to and from all the various assembly plants in the outer regions of the cell. We would wonder at the level of control implicit in the movement of so many objects down so many seemingly endless conduits, all in perfect unison. We would see all around us, in every direction we looked, all sorts of robot-like machines. We would notice that the simplest of the functional components of the cell, the protein molecules, were astonishingly, complex pieces of molecular machinery, each one consisting of about three thousand atoms arranged in highly organized 3-D spatial conformation. We would wonder even more as we watched the strangely purposeful activities of these weird molecular machines, particularly when we realized that, despite all our accumulated knowledge of physics and chemistry, the task of designing one such molecular machine – that is one single functional protein molecule – would be completely beyond our capacity at present and will probably not be achieved until at least the beginning of the next century. Yet the life of the cell depends on the integrated activities of thousands, certainly tens, and probably hundreds of thousands of different protein molecules. We would see that nearly every feature of our own advanced machines had its analogue in the cell: artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts and components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction. In fact, so deep would be the feeling of deja-vu, so persuasive the analogy, that much of the terminology we would use to describe this fascinating molecular reality would be borrowed from the world of late twentieth-century technology. What we would be witnessing would be an object resembling an immense automated factory, a factory larger than a city and carrying out almost as many unique functions as all the manufacturing activities of man on earth. However, it would be a factory which would have one capacity not equalled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours. To witness such an act at a magnification of one thousand million times would be an awe-inspiring spectacle. Michael Denton PhD., Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, pg.328
as to:
How to test this intuition scientifically? Two ways: show the object could not have come about by non-design processes OR show some signature of design. Showing something COULD NOT have come about by non-design is proving a negative: very difficult. Behe has tried to prove a edge of evolution, but not many are convinced. Given deep time, the paucity of evidence, and the established and plausible (to mainstreamers) capabilities of natural processes, IDers have not been able to prove the negative yet.
Actually, prior to Behe's, Gauger's and Axe's work, Darwinian Evolution has been known to be astronomically unlikely for a long time,,
HISTORY OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY – WISTAR DESTROYS EVOLUTION Excerpt: A number of mathematicians, familiar with the biological problems, spoke at that 1966 Wistar Institute,, For example, Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,—with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that,, E. coli contain(s) over a trillion (10^12) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist12.htm
The Darwinian responce to these astronomical numbers is what is unscientific. The Darwinian responce boils down to this irrational position that Professor Plantinga highlights,,, "Darwinism Not Proved Absolutely Impossible Therefore Its True" - Alvin Plantinga - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10285716/ Also of note, since entropy has a deep connection to 'time' (and also to gravity) then appealling to 'deep time' only amplifies the problem that Darwinism has with entropy. Deep time does not lessen the problem for Darwinism!
Entropy Contradicts Darwinism https://docs.google.com/document/d/1No_jMMDJDaMsNHdn8CrQnKRgiFDf8CXcqZGn3lSYIZc/edit
as to:
Of course, given modern satellite surveillance, it may be discovered tomorrow that a designer has released a new species of caribou into the Arctic. That would avoid the paucity of evidence problem. Nobody’s seen a candidate for the designer do anything like that yet though.
Although our satellites cannot go back in time and show us God creating a species, our satellites can do the next best thing and go back in time and show us evidence of God creating the entire universe:
The Known Universe by AMNH – video - (please note the 'centrality' of the Earth in the universe at the 3:36 minute mark in the video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U
Here is a still shot of the image at the 3:36 minute mark of the preceding video
Picture of CMBR http://new-universe.org/zenphoto/albums/Chapter4/Illustrations/Abrams47.jpg
Quotes of Note:
The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole. Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics - co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation - as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978 “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis” Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation “There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing.” George Smoot – Nobel laureate in 2006 for his work on COBE "Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy." Robert Jastrow – Founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute – Pg.15 ‘God and the Astronomers’
bornagain77
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