Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
kf @103: I was just going to point out the same to ES; as if virtually all scientific progress, up until very recently, including biology, wasn't explicitly predicated upon the design hypothesis. And still science continues even today utilizing the investigatory heuristic and principles engineered and reliant upon the foundation of design.William J Murray
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
At least in 84 eigenstate offers a better view as to why he refuses to use/allow ID terminology; he has a problem with what he holds to be the "intuition" of the ID community, meaning, he wishes to block what he sees as the "real" impetus of ID theory; promoting supernaturalism, theism, religion, etc. His objections to ID, reasonable ID inferences and ID terminology have thus been revealed as socio-political, not scientific or logical.William J Murray
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:28 AM
6
06
28
AM
PDT
WJM: Thanks for thoughts. I wonder is ES is aware that Newton's work was in a specifically design oriented context and that his general scholium for Principia is an essay on philosophical theology (cf here)? [Yes, APP 5 the always linked note.] I would think that fair comment is that Newton's synthesis launched modern science as a robust and widely regarded enterprise. Many other scientists down to today, work in a worldview and even a paradigm that is rooted in design. The objection falls apart. Science is rooted in theidea of reverse engineering nature. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:27 AM
6
06
27
AM
PDT
Eigenstate said:
Random mutations can be shown to happen in the lab, and in the wild.
Please support this assertion and direct me to where and how such mutations were vetted as "random". Also, to prevent a literature bluff, please provide some pertinent quotes.William J Murray
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:20 AM
6
06
20
AM
PDT
eigenstate said:
For my part, and for scientific thinking inasmuch as I’m familiar with it, to conclude “aliens most likely did it” is to identify the designer.
Given that the term alien, according to Merriam-Webster, simply means "a creature that doesn't come from earth", one wonders what distance eigenstate thinks the term purchases him from the term "intelligent entity", which he considers "an abstraction". Do terms that include all potential creatures somehow become less of an abstraction just because you exclude creatures from earth? Eigenstate is in a conceptual and semantic morass trying to figure out how to exclude ID via use of terminology, as if "intelligent alien" and "intelligent entity" have substantively different meanings in this context. Why exclude Earth creatures? Could some unknown Earth civilization from the distant past not have done it? Time travelers from the future? Eigenstate thinks the term "alien" substantively rationalizes his refusal to use ID terminology, when all it really does is demonstrate the emptiness of his objections. At least keith has the huevos to admit what is obvious here.William J Murray
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:14 AM
6
06
14
AM
PDT
Unlike unguided/ blind watchmaker evolution ID has testable entailments, it can possibly be falsified and uses a scientific methodology. Meaning it has all of the hallmarks of science. OTOH unguided evolution doesn't have any entailments and cannot be tested. Heck even given starting populations of prokaryotes unguided evolution can only produce more prokaryotes and nothing more.Joe
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
kf @ 94: I don't think this thread was ever actually on the track of the O.P., but I find it interesting enough. You are, of course, correct about the various forms of religion, and that both theocratic and marxist-progressive dictatorships/corporate oligarchies/big-state socialisms are seriously bad worldviews for governance. The principle of charity demands that I debate here under the premise that no one here is a deliberate agitator for some political or religious organization. I'm willing to edit out posts that don't meet the standard (unfair as it is) that I've laid out above; but still, I'd rather they offer their irrational, even nonsensical protestations against ID so they can be shown for what they are. Hopefully, some onlookers can see the same thing I saw right off the bat when I first found the debates between ID and Darwinism; Darwinists make the most laughable arguments and insist on them over and over - such as the "no real scientist supports ID" argument, or the "no real scientist uses the term "macroevolution" argument", etc. Here, we have eigenstate attempting to make the empty case that a designation of design eliminates further scientific inquiry unless one at least assumes the intelligence behind the design is "human-like" ... or, absent his SETI apologia, unless we have the designer at hand. Anyone that has even the most basic grasp of logic or just common sense can see this is ludicrous. The question I'm slow-boiling here is: why do they resort to such frantic, easily-rebutted, nonsensical protestations against what is clearly a reasonable line of inference? Why do they insist on throwing up a roadblock, any roadblock, no matter how petty or unreasonable, against ID? I think one answer (if one leaves aside the uncharitable but certainly plausible view that they are simply deliberate agitators) is that they despise/are afraid of the implications that would be contained if they allowed the reasoning to continue to conclusion. Consciously or subconsciously, they know the cannot let the reasoning reach the conclusion, and they cannot allow those reasonable conclusions to reach the public with the imprimatur of science attached. IMO, they despise/fear the prospect of an upswing in religious belief. They actually do fear that governance will swing towards a "theocracy" and that the popular culture will become more theistic and more religious. So, ID must be stopped. I think a lot of them actually believe that stopping ID is in the best interests of civilization. IOW, they are protecting their religious foothold (Darwinism/materialism) and see ID as a potential threat to their cultural agenda, which (IMO) most (of them) actually see as a good thing.William J Murray
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
05:43 AM
5
05
43
AM
PDT
RB, Let's roll the tape from 37 above, which cites you then responds: _____________ >> 37 kairosfocus December 7, 2014 at 12:25 am RB, 34:
we don’t know what natural circumstances gave/give rise to replicators capable of Darwinian evolution [--> emphasis now added], and therefore have no basis from which to conclude that such replicators, or certain forms of replicator, are unlikely to have arisen from other than deliberate artifice.
I must strongly disagree with the assumption that by some unknown mechanism, the hoped for but equally unobserved self replicating molecules did arise and of course then went on to become living cells. [--> emphasis now added] First, we have a base of trillions of cases on the origin of FSCO/I (which would be required), and every time we directly know the cause it is intelligently directed configuration — aka design. This is readily backed up by analysis of a sparse atomic and temporal resources constrained solar system or observed cosmos scale search of config spaces for 500 – 1,000+ bits of complexity. That is, we have very good inductive and analytical reason to accept that such is a reliable signature of design. Indeed, your we do not know as cited is an implicit admission of that . . . [continues] >> ______________ The issue I objected to is real, and specific. Not only so, but I quoted it specifically. In the clip I objected to -- and not only me -- you in effect assumed that some unobserved, unknown mechanism spontaneously gives/gave rise to self replicating molecules. On the strength of that assumption, you went on to dismiss challenges to that that highlight the utter implausibility and lack of observational warrant for such scenarios. I then responded. That is what you need to address, and that would not be evident to an onlooker who does not search out the actual comment (which you did not link or enumerate). I underscore, that we do know a fair deal of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics and reaction kinetics. They underscore how utterly implausible scenarios that hope for formation of self replicators in Darwin's warm salty pond or comet cores etc are. Indeed, some years back, Orgel and Wicken, acknowledged OOL experts, came to mutual ruin of genes and metabolism first schools of thought because of the intractable problems with the chemistry. In that context the instability of RNA and problems with monomers is also a factor. Here, in a clipped nutshell, is that exchange (read on down):
[[Shapiro:] RNA's building blocks, nucleotides contain a sugar, a phosphate and one of four nitrogen-containing bases as sub-subunits. Thus, each RNA nucleotide contains 9 or 10 carbon atoms, numerous nitrogen and oxygen atoms and the phosphate group, all connected in a precise three-dimensional pattern . . . . [[S]ome writers have presumed that all of life's building could be formed with ease in Miller-type experiments and were present in meteorites and other extraterrestrial bodies. This is not the case. A careful examination of the results of the analysis of several meteorites led the scientists who conducted the work to a different conclusion: inanimate nature has a bias toward the formation of molecules made of fewer rather than greater numbers of carbon atoms, and thus shows no partiality in favor of creating the building blocks of our kind of life . . . . To rescue the RNA-first concept from this otherwise lethal defect, its advocates have created a discipline called prebiotic synthesis. They have attempted to show that RNA and its components can be prepared in their laboratories in a sequence of carefully controlled reactions, normally carried out in water at temperatures observed on Earth . . . . Unfortunately, neither chemists nor laboratories were present on the early Earth to produce RNA . . . [[Orgel:] If complex cycles analogous to metabolic cycles could have operated on the primitive Earth, before the appearance of enzymes or other informational polymers, many of the obstacles to the construction of a plausible scenario for the origin of life would disappear . . . . It must be recognized that assessment of the feasibility of any particular proposed prebiotic cycle must depend on arguments about chemical plausibility, rather than on a decision about logical possibility . . . few would believe that any assembly of minerals on the primitive Earth is likely to have promoted these syntheses in significant yield . . . . Why should one believe that an ensemble of minerals that are capable of catalyzing each of the many steps of [[for instance] the reverse citric acid cycle was present anywhere on the primitive Earth [[8], or that the cycle mysteriously organized itself topographically on a metal sulfide surface [[6]? . . . Theories of the origin of life based on metabolic cycles cannot be justified by the inadequacy of competing theories: they must stand on their own . . . . The prebiotic syntheses that have been investigated experimentally almost always lead to the formation of complex mixtures. Proposed polymer replication schemes are unlikely to succeed except with reasonably pure input monomers. No solution of the origin-of-life problem will be possible until the gap between the two kinds of chemistry is closed. Simplification of product mixtures through the self-organization of organic reaction sequences, whether cyclic or not, would help enormously, as would the discovery of very simple replicating polymers. However, solutions offered by supporters of geneticist or metabolist scenarios that are dependent on “if pigs could fly” hypothetical chemistry are unlikely to help.
Where, the only empirically warranted causal explanation for FSCO/I -- abundantly in evidence for the living cell -- is design. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
05:22 AM
5
05
22
AM
PDT
KF:
I must strongly disagree with the assumption that by some unknown mechanism, the hoped for but equally unobserved self replicating molecules did arise and of course then went on to become living cells.
What I said was:
Of course it remains to be shown if, how and why that process got underway – none of that is assumed, other than as a starting point for the real empirical work.
Which you cannot possibly object to.Reciprocating Bill
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
04:42 AM
4
04
42
AM
PDT
ES, 64:
This is where ID veers off into religion, superstition, and the invincible intuition against all evidence: if you can’t identify a present (at the time) and capable designer to match against artifacts and other forensic evidence, you’re hosed. Without that, you are simply falling into circular reasoning: something that is capable of making this thing, made this thing.
First, I think you remarks about ID veering off into superstition etc are unwarranted and well beyond fair or responsible comment. (Kindly cf 94 above.) I note, that the basic challenge of origins science is that while it is of interest to reconstruct insofar as possible, the causal-historical source of the world we live in, we were not there to see it. Nor can we travel back in time. So, we may reasonably look at credible traces of that past and ask, what factors in the present are adequate for such effects? This, in a nutshell, is the vera causa principle. Generally, and as repeatedly pointed out for years in contexts you should have seen, we may relevantly categorise:
I: mechanical necessity yielding low contingency regularities under closely similar initial conditions (CSIC) II: Blind chance yielding high, stochastically plausible contingencies under CSIC III: Intelligently directed configuration, often yielding high contingency that is not stochastically plausible under CSIC
The very existence of this thread and ASCI text in English in comments and the OP is direct evidence of Type III cause, yielding functionally specific complex organisation of interacting components per a nodes-arcs wiring diagram pattern (here, a s-t-r-i-n-g data structure) and associated information, FSCO/I. The PCs etc we are typing and reading on illustrate other cases of FSCO/I, with 3-d node-arc wiring patterns to achieve function. On trillions of cases, not only is FSCO/I stochastically maximally implausible on Type II causal factors [as in sparse resource needle in haystack search for definable special zones deeply isolated in config spaces], but in these many cases where we do directly observe cause, consistently it is design. So, we are epistemologically entitled per uniformity thinking, to hold that FSCO/I is a reliable, observable empirical sign of design. (We can also apply info theory approaches to quantify the information involved or associated, and beyond 500 - 1,000 bits it is maximally implausible for FSCO/I to arise by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity.) So, with high empirical plausibility we may freely infer that if we observe FSCO/I its best causal explanation to date -- science is always provisional -- is design. For the world of cell based life and the commonly discussed general branching tree pattern used to categorise it, we find FSCO/I deeply involved in the root, and in the main body plan branches. Human linguistic capacity (closely connected to our intelligence) is another relevant case. That initially points to the root, OOL. Whether one suggests Darwin's warm salty pond, or a deep sea volcanic vent, or a comet core etc, one confronts the well known physics and chemistry involved and especially the thermodynamics. The spontaneous, instant or incremental origin of a gated, encapsulated, metabolising [notice the huge FSCO/I involved in the network of key metabolic reactions!], self-replicating cell that uses coded genetic information and proteins synthesised based on those codes, with associated regulatory information and networks, is stochastically utterly implausible, period. RNA world hypotheses and hoped for self replicating molecules come more as just so stories with a few props put up based on highly intelligently designed chemical investigations than anything else. When we move up to the branches, ideas of neutral drift chance variations and/or incremental expressed mutations or whatever non- foresighted variation devices are proposed that are then culled out through differential reproductive success with realistic mutation rates, generation times and population sizes simply do not fit the time available or the resources, whether to account for a man from a chimp-like ancestor 6 MYA, or a whale from a land animal, or the dozens of major body plans popping up in the Cambrian revolution window. There is no good reason, a priori materialism per Lewontin etc notwithstanding, to hold that these proposals credibly account for the required FSCO/I on type I and II factors. Therefore, to infer that the process of intelligently directed configuration -- type III -- is indicated by that FSCO/I is a reasonable conclusion. It is not superstition or religion or whatever loaded dismissive term you choose to add to the list I have cited above. Now, design, as noted, exists. From designs as reasonably inferred, we see that the causal process involves intelligently directed configuration. We have no good reason to conclude that designers are confined to human beings, we instantiate a capacity, we cannot credibly exhaust it. So, we re warranted to hold, job opening: designer of cell based life, candidates must show high intelligence and technical skill in molecular nanotech. And to do so, there has been zero resort to superstition, religion or anything beyond empirical investigations and the logic of induction and inference to best explanation. I think you have used some inappropriate words above that you need to take back and reflect on the underlying attitude behind them. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
03:01 AM
3
03
01
AM
PDT
eigenstate:
I offered the same conclusion to WJM, not sure where you see a conflict here.
I find myself disagreeing with statements like this...
This is where ID veers off into religion, superstition, and the invincible intuition against all evidence: if you can’t identify a present (at the time) and capable designer to match against artifacts and other forensic evidence, you’re hosed. Without that, you are simply falling into circular reasoning: something that is capable of making this thing, made this thing.
...and this:
8. Is it reasonable to say that establishing that an artifact is most likely the result of ID adds nothing of value to the ongoing investigation? It seems to me it would change the nature of the investigation profoundly.
It depends on what you mean by “establishing”. It adds to the investigation insofar as it contributes new evidence or knowledge about the designer. If design is “established”, as a rhetorical matter, but without establishing a designer, then I can’t see anything of value being added, and lots of problems being introduced.
In the case of the pattern etched in stone, I would say instead: 1. We can infer design even if we haven't identified a capable designer known to be present at the right time and place. To put it a bit differently, the pattern itself is evidence for the presence of a capable designer, given that we have no inkling of how the pattern could be produced by unintelligent natural processes or what such an explanation would even look like. 2. The reasoning doesn't seem circular to me. Whether we are IDers or not, we see the pattern and immediately recognize that it requires a causal explanation. The only question is whether the cause is intelligent or unintelligent. Either way, we infer that the cause must have been capable of producing the pattern. 3. In this scenario I would regard design as being established in a scientific sense, not merely a "rhetorical" one. Like any scientific conclusion, it would be provisional. 4. The design inference is valuable in this scenario because it would shape the future direction of the investigation. Knowing that there is a designer is quite helpful.keith s
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
01:00 AM
1
01
00
AM
PDT
WJM: Looking back at OP (the thread -- as usual has somewhat veered), I think that the pivot of the issue is really science, worldviews and society. That is, philosophy is highly material to a correct or at least an intellectually productive approach. Indeed, religion holds this interesting definition, from Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010:
re•li•gion (r??l?d? ?n) n. 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usu. involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code for the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion. 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
That is, a religion is inextricably intertwined with a worldview, AmHD: The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world. And while our usage is strongly shaped by our civilisation's history with the Judaeo-Christian tradition, there obviously can be systems with substantially/ functionally equivalent characteristics that are not focussed on God or gods. This is linked to ideologies and institutions motivated by worldviews thence policy debates, policies, education influences (formal and informal) and lifestyles. That is, ultimate loyalties and how they shape how we live. In this context scientism dominated by evolutionary materialist a prioris as noted above can easily become -- nay, has in practice long been -- a de facto functional equivalent to a religion, though it is often unrecognised as such. And of course it is a commonplace of philosophy that the most dangerous kind of metaphysical commitments are unexamined ones, taken by adherents to be how the world is. Resemblance to the attitudes and perceptions summarised by Lewontin and others as clipped in 39 above, are not happenstance coincidence. Notice, especially, Lewontin's frank admission of an agenda to shape the popular view on science as "the only begetter of truth." This almost creedal declaration of Scientism, is an epistemological and logical stance, and is inescapably philosophical. Thus, self-refuting. Likewise, the evolutionary materialist a priori discussed becomes a question-begging presupposition that forces evidence to fit a pre-conceived scheme. No wonder Philip Johnson so stringently responded to it and challenged adherents to separate philosophy and science. Question-begging, dominant ideological schemes, of course, seem to their adherents to be truth that is only challenged by the defective. Hence the sort of attitude captured in the broad sense of Dawkins' notorious dismissal of those who beg to dissent: ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. An attitude that unfortunately finds significant expression above and elsewhere in and around UD in the penumbra of attack sites. I should note here [duly pointing out that I am talking of patterns in light of historical exemplars rather than inferring that we are dealing with Communist agitators], on testimony by William D. Handelsman (recruited by Communists at age 17) to the California Senate on Communist subversion training of trade union members in the 1930's on what was called character assassination as an aspect of the front organisation with a hard core of communists; which was closely similar to such recruitment and secret training for unionists and students in my Uni in the 1970's and 80's in another country and generation (i.e. we see here an established and demonstrably highly effective system in action):
Three of us were selected for special training as character assassins Jack Sutcliffe and a man named Taylor, besides me. In this class we were told to pick out men in the unions who opposed the party program, and to spread rumors and whispering campaigns among the other union members calling him a labor spy, and F. B. I. stooge, a pervert, a labor disruptor, a stool pigeon and anything else we could use to tear him down. We not only did this, but we were told to ridicule him and heckle him at meetings. Anything we could do to blacken and smear the character of all who resisted the Communists' program in the unions was done. We were also taught that the general technique was useful against anyone who obstructed the Communists in public life, in professions and even in government positions. Sutcliffe and Taylor were also from the Marine Cooks and Stewards Union, and the three of us operated in our union as a team. We never disclosed our Communist affiliation, and when one of us would start to tear down someone 's character, the two others would spread the word among street corner groups, in waterfront cafes and bars and in the union hall. During meetings we separated from each other so we could influence three groups of people. After the character assassinators had laid the groundwork, the victim would be brought up on phoney charges and suspended or expelled from the union. This method of attack was highly effective, and widely used in the waterfront unions. [Fourth Report of the CA Senate Fact-Finding Committee on Un-American Activities, 1948, pp. 286 - 7, HT Web Archive]
Resemblance to Saul Alinsky's principles/rules for radicals published c 1970 is not coincidental, e.g.:
5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." . . . . 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. [NB: Notice the evil counsel to find a way to attack the man, not the issue. The easiest way to do that, is to use the trifecta stratagem: distract, distort, demonise.] In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other."
In short, agit-prop activists don't deal with the message fairly on the merits, don't respect the messenger as another human being with his own right to innocent character and views, but always attack and undermine both, forever seeking factional dominance and message dominance. On the message, the standard tactic is message dominance by various agit-prop techniques. This leads to the all too familiar rhetorical pattern of red herrings dragged off to strawman caricatures, then soaking same in ad hominems designed to assassinate character and then set alight. In the resulting confused, distracted, clouded, toxic, polarised atmosphere, the worst case can often seem the better to those who have been distracted and polarised. And of course, the targetted messenger, having duly been twisted into an ad hominem-laced strawman target and rhetorically burned, is forever tainted in the minds of those taken in by the trifecta red-herring --> strawman --> ad hominem tactics. In all of this, we should note, that the communists usually saw themselves as scientific socialists, following the breakthrough insights and truths pioneered by Marx et al. So, those who questioned or objected were in their view anti-science. (That is, ideology was dressed up in the lab coat. A warning flag, in an era dominated by the prestige of Science.) Those who doubted were therefore characterised as ignoramuses, tools of the Bourgeois Reaction, or even spies for the CIA etc in my day. Ironically, when a crisis hit my campus and I exchanged some fairly strong words with a Supt. of Police on their abusive tactics (including M16 rifles fired on full auto volleys above student's heads, with blanks . . . one mistake by one riot squad trooper and a massacre would have easily happened), he revealed to me that on their files I was viewed as a radical! Why am I dredging up such history? Because, part of what has happened is that there has been a diffusion of such nihilistic thinking and ruthless faction tactics far and wide as our civilisation has begun to undermine principles of civility, from parliament to press to Internet to school rooms, news rooms and talking head sound stages and streets alike. So, the nihilism of the radical factions has now become almost a norm in too many quarters. Indeed, some think character assassination is a right under freedom of speech. A simple rule taught to me by old Fr Ryan, SJ, English Teacher extraordinaire, will help: your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins. (Actually, just the swing and linked threat of/ attempted impact is assault, actual impact is battery. And there are verbal equivalents. Solomon was right to say that life and death lie in the power of the tongue and that those who love it will eat of its fruit -- for good or ill. Character assassination can be the full moral equivalent of murder.) If ruthless factionism gets utterly out of hand, confidence will be lost in civil society and its civil peace of justice; and, people will have no alternative but to seek protection under the wings of the strong man and his faction. In recent times, the political messiah -- something that goes back as far as the rise of Octavian as Augustus Caesar after the chaos, civil strife, civil wars and assassinations of the disintegrating Roman Republic. Anarchy, in short, historically leads to dictatorships, or to warlordism and clans, with feuds settled by the only means left, force. (The creation of a monarchy and a nobility as a warrior class are historical examples of attempts to tame warlordism and clan feuding by injecting the ethics of honour.) I sum up: the lessons of history were too often paid for in blood and tears; if we refuse to soundly learn them, we will pay the same price again and again. Hence, the sad pattern of history aptly summed up by Barbara Tuchman: the march of folly. (And if you think that it is only "Right Wing Christo-Fascist Theocracy" that poses such threats, think again in light of the history of the past 150 years. Start with, that Fascism is a statist, politically messianistic, Nietzschean Superman driven ideology of the Left, a sort of Marxism 2.0. Stalin's agit-prop tactic of relabelling the kissing-cousin ideology of Fascism/National Socialism as right wing, has had far too long a run with little challenge.) That is, I am warning us on the fire we are playing with by allowing ruthless factionism in the door, not only in things like the debates over the design inference, but across the board. In that context, seeing worldview cores and how they give rise to ideologies and the agendas and tactics that may be taken up by factions riding on ideologies will help us understand the broader patterns that are reflected in the attempt to twist discussion of inferring design on evidence observable in objects into a faction agit-prop war over a mythical religious tyranny that is often talked about as Creationism in a cheap tuxedo. (Cf. UD's Weak Argument Correctives nos 5 - 8, here on.) For, there are no firewalls in ethics. So, once it is corrupted through injection of nihilistic might and manipulation make 'right' and 'truth' factionism, the corruption spreads far and wide. A saner path is to return to dealing with the scientific issues on the merits with a modicum of civility and respect, appreciating that worldviews, religions, ideologies and the like will always be present in the background of one's life and work. But, if one is serious about evidence, fact, logic, the grounding of inductive inferences etc, we can come together on a reasonable basis to seriously discuss scientific issues tied to origins. That, is what I would be so bold as to ask us to do. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2014
December
12
Dec
8
08
2014
12:06 AM
12
12
06
AM
PDT
More http://www.oist.jp/press-room/news/2012/4/19/genetic-mutation-isn%E2%80%99t-so-random-after-all The only place where you read about random mutations these days are; Sandwalk, Panda's Thumb and Whyevolutionistrue, All three these sites are hosted by committed atheists, so is there any surprise then that they are the only people these days selling us this nonsense? I'm not that ignorant and I see the connection between atheism and unguided evolution. Is it however scientific fact that mutations are random? I've given some links that prove this tripe that Keith S sells is not what science is telling us, so the only reasonable conclusion is this, Keith S' view is a philosophical one and not a scientific one, If Keith S was open to rational enquiry as he so often claims he would be speaking about this does he? Nope, he has faith that unguided evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life a view not based on any evidence just on Keith's intentional states, which by the way he has already admitted can not be trusted.Andre
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
10:36 PM
10
10
36
PM
PDT
Keith S
In this case the imbalance runs the other way. There is a known unintelligent process — unguided evolution via random mutation, natural selection, and drift — that fits the evidence far better than the design hypothesis. Not only does the design hypothesis fit the evidence poorly, but an unknown designer for whom there is no solid, independent evidence is going up against a known natural process.
Yeah chaotic processes that are unguided, random, haphazard, directionless and purposeless can create autonomous biological systems! Are you really that irrational? I find it absolutely laughable that any rational and sane person can even contemplate such stupidity considering the mountains of evidence we have against naturalistic processes capability of creating these systems. Keith of course ignores the evidence because he is so stuck on his world view that nothing will change his mind. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22522932 http://jb.asm.org/content/182/11/2993.full http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Nonrandom_directed_mutations_confirmed.php http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2013/11/mitochondrial-dna-mutations/ http://stochasticscientist.blogspot.com/2013/12/dna-mutations-might-not-be-so-random.html http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1386634606001549 http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/opinions/100918 Keith S is just an anti-ID troll. I will not recant this statement.Andre
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
10:10 PM
10
10
10
PM
PDT
"if ID really did predict that “junk DNA” does not exist, and it all mist be functional somehow, you’d have an interesting starting point." But....ID did predict functionality in junk DNA. IN fact they could employ their numbers on how much explanatory power evolution does has, come up with a rate of addition for a particular form of DNA, subtract the addition rate over the course of a certain time and come up with how long the oldest DNA molecule might have been...and then compare that with how it relates to erosion. Devolution. And come up with a percentage of how much CURRENT Functional DNA there is. As opposed to how much existed in the past, which I think everyone would agree is 100 percent function right?ForJah
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
09:10 PM
9
09
10
PM
PDT
@Box
Keith is right to say that inferring design is to side with IDers. He knows that ID holds that inferring design is distinct from identifying a designer. In effect he is saying: ‘One thing is certain, this pattern is caused by intelligent design’. Eigenstate, your “aliens did it” is a transparent attempt to conflate the two.
If keiths would agree that "inferring design" in this way identifies "intelligent design" without implicating a designer, where "designer" is some empirically verifiable (at least in principle) being, then I'd agree, keiths is "siding with ID", endorsing the abstraction without committing to the concrete. That's not my understanding of keiths views, but he can speak for himself. For my part, and for scientific thinking inasmuch as I'm familiar with it, to conclude "aliens most likely did it" is to identify the designer. That is, we don't know the aliens' names or SSNs, or even what they look like, but we posit the existing of natural beings operating under natural constraints that apply to them as it does to us (e.g. gravity exerts pull on whatever mass they have). As I undertand ID, it does not posit such. It is satisfied with an abstract if yet real (somehow!) designer; It might be the undetectable, impassible YHWH, after all, right? That is a very different commitment to "Intelligence did this!" than the (tentative, provisional) commitment that I would make on looking at WJM's crop-circles-from-space. As I understand keiths, and certainly for myself, that not at all what "aliens did it" ascribes to on the crop circles question. I just think the human-ish-at-least-natural beings I'd posit are, on some sketchy and subjective intuition, more likely than natural processes. If I were to later learn that natural processes were the cause of that phenomena, I'd be surprised, but I was making sketchy, provisional judgments anyway. If that sounds like the ID commitment to you, and we really are making the same basic commitment, then indeed, I've seriously misunderstood ID as a whole and stand to be corrected. I was certainly prior to reading your post, here that ID was committed to "Intelligence did this, period" as opposed to "some sort of aliens with human-like capabilities seem more likely than natural processes". Here's a test. If we were to agree on "aliens did this", and my further conjecture was "aliens that arose through natural processes elsewhere did this", would the IDers nod along because/insofar as I was "making a design inference"? That would imply that natural processes were ultimately responsible, and the aliens, like us, are just the sentient and creative products of an impersonal set of processes. If is satisfied ending with naturalistic conclusions at the top level, then I have been mistaken about the nature of the movement, and perhaps I've misread keiths on this as well.eigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
07:09 PM
7
07
09
PM
PDT
ID in a nutshell. The most succinct explanation of ID. Not if, but how??? I've always said that ID is the harder position to take. Evolution is the lazy-ass way of attacking the problem. meanwhile.......Quick, Stephen Myer is at the door!. Shove the books under the couch. Dust goes under the rug. NOW!!! Potato chips under the cushions. No, not that cushion. He'll check. The other one. He'll check that one, too. Shit! Forget it! Eat 'em......fast!!! My, what a beautifully clean place!! How do you do it?? Oh, its nothing. Evolution did it.
WJM: If we’re honest, it isn’t a question of if ID exists, or if it can produce qualitatively different kinds of artifacts; it’s just a question of how to go about formally making the distinction. Once we’re past that ideological road block, we can start figuring out what the best way would be to make such a determination, which is exactly what IDists have attempted and are attempting to do.
Steve
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
06:50 PM
6
06
50
PM
PDT
Eigenstate,
Keith: If we found William’s pattern etched in stone on a dead planet, I would infer design, even if we had no independent evidence of the presence and capabilities of suitable designers.
Eigenstate: I think that’s what I said, as well — aliens did it would be the leading conclusion.
Keith states "I would infer design", you state "aliens did it" and you don't notice the subtle but important difference here.
Eigenstate: I don’t see that as “siding with ID”, but siding with a scientific appraisal.
Keith is right to say that inferring design is to side with IDers. He knows that ID holds that inferring design is distinct from identifying a designer. In effect he is saying: 'One thing is certain, this pattern is caused by intelligent design'. Eigenstate, your "aliens did it" is a transparent attempt to conflate the two.Box
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
06:19 PM
6
06
19
PM
PDT
@ForJah,
ID is not employed as a theoretical framework in evolutionary biology. My prediction has yet to be tested. ID advocates are not telling people how things came about by evolution, they are simply saying some things can NOT be explained that way. Here is a great chance for ID theorists to prove my prediction.
That isn't a new idea you have there, whatever its merits. Many have promoted this for a long time, which is why I said what I said. Consider: someone tells you they have a way to beat the stock market. They have an way of reading the market and thinking about it which will produce superior results, and predictably. But this idea has been known and advanced for years, you find, and you can't find anyone even trying it out, let alone raking in stupendous profits with this insight. What would make of that idea, even if you didn't know much yet about the particulars of the insight? You'd suspect this insight was no insight at all. If it was, the consequences are so huge that it would have been put into play, and hard. In ID, the lack of action on this idea is conspicuous. It's not that there are no scientists who are sympathetic to ID, and capable of trying out a new, powerful insight that purports to provide superior results in biology. If that were available, it would have been done, and long before now. What we can conclude from the present circumstances is that IDers don't really believe their own rhetoric. That's not unusual or surprising. It's just everyday political advocacy at work. But by all means man, if ID gives you a leg up on biology, there's a Nobel prize or three with your name on it. You won't take action, or be surprised that others who love ID don't either, because there's no operating plan for this insight (consider explaining to your friendly ID-sympathizing local biologist how he would get superior results with your insight over "science the mainstream way").
Study things you think could have evolved by chance via your theory of ID…if you come out with more progressive results, then ID contains a better theoretical framework then evolution.
That's not practical, because ID doesn't have the theoretical substance to drive such a program. Consider the problem of prediction. If ID made novel and necessary detailed predictions, you could jump on that. For example, if ID really did predict that "junk DNA" does not exist, and it all mist be functional somehow, you'd have an interesting starting point. But ID doesn't predict that, or predict anything about functional vs. non-functional DNA rates. It doesn't predict anything at in the scientific sense of "predict". So the well-intended young Christian biologist doesn't have base to begin from. I've not encountered the ID advocate yet who could articulate how the ID intuition would be marshaled into a scientific theory that powered new avenues of research, even fruitless avenues of research. It can't power such because it's not that kind of an idea, it doesn't have the concepts and discipline that enable a research programme to be launched from it. But, perhaps you will be first to explain how that could work for me.
“All deaths are explained naturally,” You are using “naturally” is a significantly different way then biologists and atheist use it. I do not doubt that anyone within the ID framework would deny that “natural” mechanisms could have caused the diversification of life we see today if the word “natural” is defined independent of intelligence.
"Natural" is a problematic term. "Natural laws and processes" tends to avoid much confusion, and "supernatural" is very helpful to identify actions, consciousness (protests about concepts stolen from nature notwithstanding), that override or transcend natural laws and processes. One area the warring factions here could find agreement and make improvements is a stronger commitment to being precise and consistent in the terms being employed.eigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
06:08 PM
6
06
08
PM
PDT
@keiths
The problem for IDers comes when biological phenomena are substituted for the etched stone pattern in the above example. Then we are comparing these two probabilities: 1. The probability that an unintelligent natural process was available and capable of producing the given biological phenomenon; versus 2. The probability that an unknown but intelligent agent was present and capable of producing the given biological phenomenon. In this case the imbalance runs the other way. There is a known unintelligent process — unguided evolution via random mutation, natural selection, and drift — that fits the evidence far better than the design hypothesis. Not only does the design hypothesis fit the evidence poorly, but an unknown designer for whom there is no solid, independent evidence is going up against a known natural process. Probability #1 is much higher than probability #2, so the design inference is rejected. By rational folks, anyway.
That's a problem as you've expressed it, I think - "capable of producing the given biological phenomenon". I don't that is (or should be) controversial in terms of diversification and speciation, the development of life once it got started. But I don't think we can say that the OOL part of that is something where we have a 'present and capable' actor, in the impersonal sense, here, like we do with evolution. As you are aware, ID is recovering from its battle scars over the years, and retreating from "evolution can't happen" to "evolution doesn't explain abiogenesis, therefore Designer". There are and will remain the followers and the intransigent -- there are still lots of YECs out there, fercryinoutloud! -- but the thought leadership in ID increasingly has retreated to incredulity over abiogenesis. That's a smart and needed practical move, and buys ID a lot of time and space, as abiogenesis is a long term slog for science, and we are not nearly at the point to say "this is what happened and how", even in cursory terms. I'm not a subscriber to panspermia ideas, but I don't know how I'd carry an argument for the higher probability of abiogenesis over some sort of alien intervention or saltation. In my view, it just seems more plausible that life developed from non-life on earth, without any conscious designer or personal intervention. But I won't pretend I can substantiate numerators or denominators for that. I have less than a clue what the probabilities for a panspermia scenario would be, so I'm left with the weakest of bases to work from -- just an amorphous sense that one seems more plausible than the other -- abiogenesis as the much more likely, in my view. There's no defending this weakness from ID intuitions, so far as I'm aware, unless and until we make more progress on abiogenesis. IDists need ignorance in which to host their Designer conjectures, and abiogenesis is so young as research programme that they can use this tactic for years if not decades into the future. If I were an "ID partisan", I'd say you #1 and #2 probabilities were at best inscrutable, and therefore, there is no "known process" that tips things your (and my) way, so long as OOL is included in what we are judging. Again, if we are starting from 'self-replicating cells', it's game over and the design reference is a clear loser. I'm interested in how you'd handicap your #1 and #2 above, if you considered OOL and 'diversification/speciation' separately. Perhaps I'm just far behind in what's happening in research on abiogenesis!eigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
05:45 PM
5
05
45
PM
PDT
"If you are correct, then we would expect to see some confirmation of this already. If that conjecture is a correct insight, then researchers who are oriented around this insight should outperform their peers, over time, or a the very least, show something. That is not how the world has played out. Looking at the evidence, it’s useless, inert, vacuous, if we are just looking with a cold clear eye as to what has actually been produced." ID is not employed as a theoretical framework in evolutionary biology. My prediction has yet to be tested. ID advocates are not telling people how things came about by evolution, they are simply saying some things can NOT be explained that way. Here is a great chance for ID theorists to prove my prediction. Study things you think could have evolved by chance via your theory of ID...if you come out with more progressive results, then ID contains a better theoretical framework then evolution. "All deaths are explained naturally," You are using "naturally" is a significantly different way then biologists and atheist use it. I do not doubt that anyone within the ID framework would deny that "natural" mechanisms could have caused the diversification of life we see today if the word "natural" is defined independent of intelligence.ForJah
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
05:33 PM
5
05
33
PM
PDT
@keiths
If we found William’s pattern etched in stone on a dead planet, I would infer design, even if we had no independent evidence of the presence and capabilities of suitable designers.
I think that's what I said, as well -- aliens did it would be the leading conclusion. I don't see that as "siding with ID", but siding with a scientific appraisal.
Like any scientific conclusion, the design inference would be provisional, subject to revision in light of further developments. There is a remote chance that someone might discover an unintelligent process capable of etching that particular pattern into stone. However, based on present knowledge, design would be a far better explanation than unintelligent natural processes.
Reading my response to WJM, I don't see any disagreement here, other than "remote". I said we "don't have a way to rule out" natural processes, and by that I mean the chances remain, but are... "remote".
It’s a Bayesian inference. The pattern is a given, and we are estimating and comparing two probabilities: 1. The probability that an unknown and unintelligent natural process was available and capable of producing the given pattern; versus 2. The probability that an unknown but intelligent agent was present and capable of producing the given pattern.
Right. Those are the hypotheses that come to mind. The underlying probabilities are difficult enough to make this a stretching things, though. That is, one risks overstating one's background knowledge here by handicapping the probabilities.
These are epistemic probabilities, so they are subjective to an extent, but I think most of us would agree that probability #1 is significantly smaller than probability #2. If so, this justifies the design inference.
Right. As I said to WJM, I think most scientists taking this up would conclude "aliens", and for the reasons you give.
We have no knowledge of unintelligent processes capable of producing similar patterns, and no inkling of how it could even be possible. < Yet we do know that intelligent agents (humans, in this case) can design and implement such patterns, and the prior probability of intelligent agents existing elsewhere seems relatively high. Given this imbalance, I think the design inference is warranted.
I offered the same conclusion to WJM, not sure where you see a conflict here. If there is one, I'd say I'd be quite circumspect about my/our ability to judge the probabilities. I do think at a coarse level, one can point out, as you do, and as I did, that we can at least see the development of humans as an example of a path to producing such artifacts. I can't imagine (off the top of my head, anyway) even a path toward an impersonal process that would produce that layout. So there is that, and I think that's sufficient to tip the judgment toward "aliens". The ID jump is different, though, different in kind. If we suppose 'human-like beings with super-human brains' could do this, it's not even a problem to get to a panspermia scenario. We could imagine that some form of life arose in more ideal or fast-evolving environments elsewhere in the universe, and found earth some 4 billion years ago and introduced DNA, or some designed precursor that gave rise to DNA. That's more of a stretch, but tenable, I suppose. But while that may satisfy some lawyerly interpretation of ID, the intuition that animates the ID movement isn't satisfied by this. These 'creator-aliens' cannot have evolved themselves, elsewhere, for the same reasons humans could not have come to be from natural processes, here. They are simply too advanced, complex and well, "designed-looking" for that to be the case. The panspermia answer just delays the ID intuition about four seconds, until the ID subscriber says, "but wait a minute, those creator-aliens had to be designed, then". Intelligence cannot be an emergent property of a (previously) impersonal universe, according to this intuition. That's why I say "Aliens most likely did it", which is a "design inference" is NOT siding with ID, but with garden variety science. The "Design Inference", with capital letters, is fundamentally different than a "design inference", as it carries the burden of regarding "novel information" and/or "meaning" and/or specified complexity as transcendent, coming from outside the natural laws and dynamics of our universe. Apropos the topic of this thread, that's where the religious connection comes in, of course. It's not sufficient to just "recognize design" with a small "d". We can do that ad nauseum and we still won't satisfy the ID intuition so long as some natural processes are regarded as inherent creative and generative, and others work to harness them into feedback loops. The ID Inference, with a capital "I" must ground the source of life, consciousness and intelligence outside of impersonal nature. Deciding that "aliens most likely created those cool crop-circle-y patterns" doesn't commit one to that jump. Those aliens may just be another product of evolutionary biology working elsewhere in the universe. Edited to fix blockquoteseigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
05:23 PM
5
05
23
PM
PDT
The problem for IDers comes when biological phenomena are substituted for the etched stone pattern in the above example. Then we are comparing these two probabilities: 1. The probability that an unintelligent natural process was available and capable of producing the given biological phenomenon; versus 2. The probability that an unknown but intelligent agent was present and capable of producing the given biological phenomenon. In this case the imbalance runs the other way. There is a known unintelligent process -- unguided evolution via random mutation, natural selection, and drift -- that fits the evidence far better than the design hypothesis. Not only does the design hypothesis fit the evidence poorly, but an unknown designer for whom there is no solid, independent evidence is going up against a known natural process. Probability #1 is much higher than probability #2, so the design inference is rejected. By rational folks, anyway.keith s
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
04:46 PM
4
04
46
PM
PDT
eigenstate,
Design inferences are the product of a matching process where the artifacts or forensic evidence is aligned with causal agent to produce a model of what happened.
I agree with most of what you write at UD, but on this particular point I side with the IDers. If we found William's pattern etched in stone on a dead planet, I would infer design, even if we had no independent evidence of the presence and capabilities of suitable designers. Like any scientific conclusion, the design inference would be provisional, subject to revision in light of further developments. There is a remote chance that someone might discover an unintelligent process capable of etching that particular pattern into stone. However, based on present knowledge, design would be a far better explanation than unintelligent natural processes. It's a Bayesian inference. The pattern is a given, and we are estimating and comparing two probabilities: 1. The probability that an unknown and unintelligent natural process was available and capable of producing the given pattern; versus 2. The probability that an unknown but intelligent agent was present and capable of producing the given pattern. These are epistemic probabilities, so they are subjective to an extent, but I think most of us would agree that probability #1 is significantly smaller than probability #2. If so, this justifies the design inference. We have no knowledge of unintelligent processes capable of producing similar patterns, and no inkling of how it could even be possible. Yet we do know that intelligent agents (humans, in this case) can design and implement such patterns, and the prior probability of intelligent agents existing elsewhere seems relatively high. Given this imbalance, I think the design inference is warranted.keith s
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
04:37 PM
4
04
37
PM
PDT
@ForJah,
I think you are misrepresenting what WJM said. Forensics isn’t about finding who the human responsible for the murder is. It’s about determining IF a murder or arson took place. Given your strict standards, you are claiming that such a determination is unreasonable.
I pointed out that the "who" wasn't needed for the arson conclusion -- see my comment about the perpetrator's social security number. We *do* need explanatory resources, though. Present and capable actors for any conclusion that implies an actor, like arson does. For an arson investigator to conclude "a human did this, this was not a naturally-caused fire", there must have been humans plausibly around the area at the time of the fire, right? Right. So the "who" in particular is not needed for the conclusion. The available of *someone* to play the role of "arsonist" is absolutely required. See my example to WJM above of finding what looks like burned documents in a cave in Mars when the first humans arrive? Could we conclude that a human did this, in that case? Even if that scene, here on earth, would provide a sure conclusion of arson, in that case, we would have to look elsewhere, because no humans are or were plausibly present and capable to account for the phenomena. This is the problem ID has to struggle with. Religiously, the vast majority of ID supports are quite OK with the plausibility of a Designer as "capable and present" 3.6 billion years ago, and possibly innumerable times since to "steer" the design in desired directions. But this is an intuition, a religious impulse, so science rightly gives it zero credit in scientific terms. An IDer may say "But a designer was there and was more than capable! When it comes to establishing this empirically in the same way science qualifies and tests everything else, ID is left with no plausible designer candidates. No person, no being can be shown to be present and capable.
ID is a theoretical framework against the idea that all biological things developed ONLY by natural selection acting on random mutation.
Current models incorporate much more than just NS+RM, but I undertand you to mean "natural processes, without any personal or conscious guidance".
That statement is ALREADY false. Molecular engineering, Dog diversification, creating some forms of biological life.
That is not the claim of science can find no basis for any putative Designer in any model it consider, so ID has not got any purchase in science regarding the intuition that life was created by a Designer that had the traits of personality, consciousness, sentience, etc.
I predict that if ID were employed within evolutionary biology, evolutionary biology would yield more beneficial results.
If you are correct, then we would expect to see some confirmation of this already. If that conjecture is a correct insight, then researchers who are oriented around this insight should outperform their peers, over time, or a the very least, show something. That is not how the world has played out. Looking at the evidence, it's useless, inert, vacuous, if we are just looking with a cold clear eye as to what has actually been produced.
As we have it now assuming everything is natural may in fact be wasting our time and money on things that may not have occurred naturally! Think if forensics worked the same way!?! All deaths can be explained naturally, now lets study how it happened naturally. THink of all the murderers who would be on the street!
All deaths are explained naturally, you are mixes incompatible senses of "naturally", here. Murders are just as natural as deaths from cancer -- they are both phenomena that occur in strict accord with natural processes -- it's physics from one end to the other. For your complaint to work along the lines of ID, you'd have to require that forensic experts considered miracles and supernatural explanations as the "best explanation", due to the intuitions of the masses. As a materialist, "design" is a pervasive conclusion, as in the arson investigator finding the tell tale signs of purposeful fire-starting (matches, gas, etc., at the point of origin). Design inferences themselves are no problem. Putative designers that have no presence or capability at the time/place in question, that is the problem.eigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
02:37 PM
2
02
37
PM
PDT
So, SETI can’t play, right? No capable and present designers, as you say. Why did you try to give them cover with with your previous apologetics?
It can't play in terms of laying claims to conclusions or knowledge about sentient life elsewhere in the universe. No present or capable agents are in view, and we don't even have signals that require the positing of human-like or plausible life forms. It's just a search at this point. SETI doesn't purport to explaining any phenomena in view. This is not the case with ID, and in this respect, SETI is coming from the opposite direction. ID, as I understand it, claims that a Designer, who is in no way present or capable at the times/places in questions so far as we can tell, is the "best explanation" for life on earth, and its diversity. So, SETI is operating within its limits as a conjectured search. ID is persistent and incorrigible in making claims about phenomena we have in view that are not supported or warranted by any model that predicts it. I would not give SETI cover if they claimed that the "best explanation" for life on earth were the aliens they were looking for, anymore than I give ID a pass for making the same mistake. They don't do that, though. ID does, day in and day out...
Further, just to clarify, if we land on an otherwise uninhabited, dead planet with no sign of life or anything remotely life-like, and find this pattern: http://www.bing.com/images/sea.....tedIndex=4 …. etched in flat stone several miles across so that it is only visible from the sky, our only course of scientific investigation is to try and figure out how natural forces generated the pattern?
No, of course not. The model I anticipate scientist would consider most promising is one that has some sort of alien being creating the phenomena, purposefully, or as a by product of some other activity. We wouldn't have enough from what you've provided to rule out natural processes, but your description of the planet as "dead" does not exclude visits from these conjectured aliens who created the effect. It could not be "crops" as you have in the photo, as it's a "dead" planet, but I take your intent to be finding this.... geometry there. Why would our only course of investigation be "natural processes". We don't have any evidence of aliens being actual, but we understand that given a planet with life-supporting parameters and resources, which, statistically, at least, seems like to exist, and perhaps to exist in large numbers, life can and does arise from those resources over deep time. Or, if it can happen here, it can happen elsewhere. The plausibility of that would have to be contrasted with an "natural processes" model. ID has to sort of sit on the sidelines, here, though. It can't even point to "it happened here, so perhaps elsewhere?" to give some rudimentary plausibility to a "designer model". We have nothing scientifically to underwrite the positing of the Designer, nothing even as weak as "if it happened here, it could happen elsewhere".eigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
02:10 PM
2
02
10
PM
PDT
Eigenstatte: Random mutations can be shown to happen in the lab, and in the wild.
The same goes for intelligent design. Every post on this forum can serve as an example.
S.Meyer: many scientific fields currently posit intelligent causes as scientific explanations. Design detection is already part of science. Archaeologists, anthropologists, forensic scientists, cryptographers, and others now routinely infer intelligent causes from the presence of information-rich patterns or structures or artifacts. Further, astrobiologists looking for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) do not have a rule against inferring an intelligent cause. Instead, they are open to detecting intelligence, but have not had evidence to justify making such an inference. Thus, the claim that all scientific fields categorically exclude reference to creative intelligence is actually false.
Box
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
01:54 PM
1
01
54
PM
PDT
@WJM,
In the crop circle example, there was quite a bit of scientific investigation into the nature of the circles. Several papers by W.C. Levengood were published examining the physical properties of the crop circle stalks that were bent to make the design. This led to various theories about how the stalks were bent.
Well, here's a test then, a calibration point of sorts: what has science made of the crop circle question in general, and Dr. Levengood's ideas specifically? Are you aware of anyone testing or validating Dr. Levengood's claims (my understanding is he claimed some substantial difference in the crops and seeds "in the crop circle" from those "outside the circle", beyond what the act of making the plants lay in the pattern they do could account for. What's the scientific consensus on this, if there is one, on this question, in your view? This is not a digression, I suggest, but speaks to your understanding of how scientific knowledge and understandings are developed.
It is well known that the physical evidence of many crop circles simply didn’t match up to the techniques claimed to be used by the self-described hoaxters. This is evident in the available scientific literature. Whether or not they are man-made, it is obvious that scientific progress can be made without knowing anything about the designer or instantiating process by simply examining the artifact/pattern.
From this, I must ask, then (and this is not a rhetorical question): what, precisely, do you mean by "scientific progress". What is necessary to apply to distinguish "scientific progress" for "non-progress"?eigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
01:51 PM
1
01
51
PM
PDT
@WJM,
No, it’s a generalization of a type of causal agency known to exist, like “random mutations” or “natural selection”. I invite onlookers to examine your attempt to have your cake and eat it too, with your following SETI apologetics:
That is prescisely what ID is not doing. Random mutations can be shown to happen in the lab, and in the wild. We can describe them in groups, as classes of events, but the process itself is not abstract. It's concrete. ID does not have processes or phenomena we can point to as concrete features of our world that similarly qualify as resources in a model. When you say "generalization", you should be specific regarding your meaning; I understand you to mean that you go from concrete specifics to some extrapolated view of "other intelligences". That is, if we see these concrete examples on earth of human intelligence, we can suppose other forms of intelligence that aren't human, exist. And indeed, that may be the case. But if so, it's not known, and it's certainly illicit, and distinct from how "random mutations" are incorporated into biological and physics models. In science, no such generalization occurs. We do not suppose that since we see mutations in the concrete and observable way the do, that some "non-earthly" or "other unknown but directed kind of mutations" might account for what we see.
Eigenstate gives SETI a pass because their unknown intelligences and kind of existence are assumed to be beings somewhat similar to humans. However, if SETI did locate such a signal, and had no access to the assumed extraterrestrials, what would they do with it? Would they attempt to analyze it? If they found what appeared to be hidden code, would they attempt to decode it (like in the movie “Contact”)? Would the science stop because we had no factual knowledge about the source of the signal?
Sure, that's the hope and goal of SETI. There is the expectation that if such signals were found, we'd have to work on them before making "contact" in a more direct sense, if that were to happen at all. But any progress we made would be (by definition) comprehensible in terms of human intelligence. And for any model proposed we'd be constraining it to the physics we understand at the time.
Your differential between my “intelligent entities” and “human-like extraterrestrials” is nothing more than a semantic dividing line protecting an ideological position. Would it matter if the signal that SETI received actually came from human-like extraterrstrials, or if actually came from god, or a flying spaghetti monster, or rain fairies, or some supernatural agency, from the future, or from an alternate dimension?
It would matter in the most profound sense. "Human-like extra-terrestrials" holds out the prospect of building scientific, model-based knowledge of our counterparts. God, where "God" is a supernatural being, somehow outside of STEM or supervening upon it, makes this intractable. Science would not work, could not hope to work, because its epistemology is based on natural models that drive empirical testing and liability to falsification. Science can only help to the extent the "other beings" are contained within, and bound by the same process and dynamics that ground our knowledge. If it's "God" on the end of the phone, science can't help, or figure out what "help" would even mean.
Of course not. Whatever it’s assumed origin, we can still scientifically process the nature of the signal to whatever degree possible.
Sure, but to the extent you want a model for the process itself, to the extent you don't have a "naturalistic" being on the other end, science can't help you. You can describe and analyze the signal all you like, predictions, and thus knowledge, are only available insofar as the "aliens are natural". Science gains huge benefits in knowledge acquisition only at the (steep) cost of being rigorous and demanding of its models. God, as part of the model, would nullify any knowledge that otherwise could have come from the model (that which explains everything, explains nothing).
Please note what you are doing; in the case of artifacts of unobserved origin, you are claiming that the difference between there being a line of scientific investigation open and one not being open lies solely in what we have imagined or have assumed the designing intelligences to be like (even while insisting in non-SETI cases that the designer be identified before further science can commence).
I don't recognize my words or ideas in what you just recounted. For these artifacts, we can always "continue investigating". The product of this investigation, though, is predicated on the sufficiency of the model to support conclusions; if you cannot substantiate -- and I use that term deliberately in opposition to you "imagined" or "assumed" -- present and capable artisans, the you're stuck. You can keep investigating, but agnosticism is all you are going to draw from that. This is not to demand a "video tape of creation", or some such. An arson investigator doesn't need to show any particular person, or even *a* person, unidentified, at the scene at a plausible time, to conclude the fire was caused by arson. It's sufficient to show that humans who are capable of arson are and were nearby with ample opportunity to commit arson in this case. If the first humans to land on Mars were to find a cave with what appeared to be ash from burned up paper-like materials, we would not conclude "arson" (er, people purposely setting fire, anyway), because, again, the "presence/capability" part of the model would not hold in that case. It would have to be some different kind of being, if it were a "being" at all, that caused this. We are just so used to the "humans are and were around and capable" understanding for our design inferences that we risk taking it for granted, forgetting that it underwrites all these inferences. But the creation of biological life on earth, if "creation" is an apt term at all, doesn't and cannot avail itself of this common circumstance we have today, for more modern artifacts.
For artifacts on Earth, your point is apparently that if we assume the designers are human, then scientific progress can be made. If we postulate that perhaps a non-human designer may be responsible, then until we can identify the designer no further investigation is possible …. except for SETI, which assumes a human-like extraterrestrial intelligence as the source of the type of signal they are looking for.
Something like that: 1. On earth, we have humans, and to some extent animals, as our designers/actors. 2. For SETI, we don't have humans or other mammals to use in our models, but suppose that if humans can evolve here, there's no reason other similar beings could not evolve on other planets/places. We have no evidence for such, other than our existence as an exemplar for possible scenarios elsewhere. It's a conjecture that we are not tied to, but need as a predicate to let the search go forward; there may not be any other sentience in the universe, for all we know. On the chance that there is, we assume what is necessary to assume to enable the search to happen. 3. For ID, we got nothing. Because of the chronology, and the regress problem, we don't even know what to assume for a "search for a designer". The chronology/regress problem is that unlike SETI, where we can at least see clear to a earth-like timeline happening, even well earlier than ours, if life began on earth some 3-4 billion years ago, the designer had to evolve or *somehow* come to be in order to seed/design life here. That doesn't answer the problem of life arising in a direct sense, of course, but just pushes it back. Now, we are concerned about how those designers evolved or otherwise came to be. The Intelligent Design intuition doesn't work here, because even if some sort of panspermia scenario were established for earth, those visiting aliens as "creators of life on earth" are now the problem. God had to make them, because natural processes cannot (in the ID intuition) produce intelligence. So ultimately, ID has an intractable problem with the designer. If ID advocates are OK with panspermia as a sufficient answer, then fine, but this excludes any and all who are against the emergence of life/sentience by impersonal/natural means. Which is the vast majority of ID subscribers.
It appears to me that your sole objection to design inferences in ID theory is your view that IDists don’t specifically require that any hypothesized intelligent agency be “human-like”.
No I don't even regard that as a part of my objection, let alone the sole or primary substance of it. My objection is that for any model, there must be some science behind the crucial piece -- the presence and capability of these putative designers. It's a very basic, but disabling objection for ID, and one that the other ID inferences you point to (e.g. arson investigations) do not struggle with. The hypothesized Designer need not be "human-like" at all. If my view, if such a Designer were to reveal itself, based on what we see in nature, I would be surprised if it resembled humans even a little bit -- physically, cognitively or otherwise. But that conjecture aside, no, being human-like is not required at all except in the very narrow sense that humans actually exist, and have observable capabilities toward observable ends and artifacts. Humans are "present and capable" for the phenomena attributed to them, and that is the only criteria they would share with any putative Designer that would be required.eigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
The idea that science would come to a stop wrt a designed object ot pattern just because we are unable to identify the nature of the designing intelligence is absurd on the face of it.
To be clear, what's crucial is the presence and capability of the putative Designer(s), not "nature" per se -- that term is problematic, here. ID offers a tautology -- the Designer by definition has the nature of a being that can and would design biological life. Yes, of course, that's an analytical truth. Declaring that we need to "understand the nature of the designer" is vague and bound to produce confusion and misunderstanding. Perhaps there are better, more concrete terms to use than "presence and capability", in which case, I'm open to the upgrade, but the bottom line is that this has to be a substantial bar to clear for theory, a demand on the model, because this is what provides the basis for any resulting knowledge that might come from it. If we saw crop circles when an exploring space ship arrived someday at a distant planet, the model we would use here would not work, as we would not have "capable and present humans" as the crucial protagonists, here, even if the formations were the same as we see here. The conclusion does and must crucially rely on what we can establish for presence and availability in making these decisions.
It baffles me how someone can make such a statement in good faith. As if we couldn’t or wouldn’t bother to attempt to decode or understand the meaning of the pattern, or figure out how it worked, or attempt to understand the engineering principles, the fabrication process, etc.
We would bother. But we can't come to anything scientific, or I'd go further -- generally solid as grounded knowledge, until we had a model that accounted for the key role, in ID's case the designer of biological life. Many supposed (and I guess some still suppose!) that aliens are behind the creation of crop circles, but I think you'd agree "aliens did it" was and is an unwarranted conclusion. Being agnostic on the matter doesn't stop investigation, and often it's the reverse, with our not knowing driving our natural curiosity to do more investigating.
Of course, we would attempt to identify the designing intelligence, but I can’t see how any reasonable person can say that there would be no avenue for scientific investigation of the thing in question unless there was a “matching” designer to be found.
We don't have to wonder, we can look around. All efforts to do so with out a "matching designer" leave us without the means to reach a scientific conclusion. An ID advocate can engage in furious activity this way or that, but it won't matter; unless and until that crucial gap in the model is filled, no scientific predictions, tests and judgments can proceed from it. So it's fine to say 'we can keep working on the problem', and indeed that is true. But you can't get to scientific knowledge without the predicate for that knowledge, the model that incorporates putative artisans with their artifacts in a way that makes novel predictions that are subject to testing and falsification. It's not "working on the problem" that's the concern here, WJM, it's how to assess what you've got and what you don't that is problematic for "model-less", casual hypotheses.eigenstate
December 7, 2014
December
12
Dec
7
07
2014
12:46 PM
12
12
46
PM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8 9 10

Leave a Reply