Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Religion And Intelligent Design Theory

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The history of science is – of course – full of theories that have been proposed by people with deep religious or philosophical convictions (including materialism).  These great minds and others around and after them have often opined about the social, philosophical and religious implications of their scientific discoveries or the discoveries and theories of others.  Certain scientific discoveries and theories are often extrapolated into social perspectives and even used to support political agendas. Eugenics, for example, was advocated for and embraced by various Darwinism proponents.

Religion has been brought up several times here at UD and there is no home thread for it to be discussed or debated. I thought I’d provide one for those that wish to engage in such a discussion.  Some here seem to be arguing under the assumption that only those who adhere to some form of Abrahamic faith are IDists; I’m not of any organized religion.   I’ve never even read the Bible or Koran.  I was raised very loosely as a Methodist but at 17 turned to Eastern philosophies, later became a hard-core materialist atheist and maybe 15 or so years ago became something of combination classical and “new age” theist – but those tags can be very misleading due to the nature of my idiosyncratic views.

I was initially drawn to the ID debate not because it was necessary or favorable to my views, but rather because those who made anti-ID arguments were making such laughably bad arguments, and ID proponents made some very reasonable arguments that were met with an openly dismissive hostility that intrigued me.  I’ve actually developed my theistic views in about the same time frame that I’ve been involved in the ID debate, as those on the ID side employed and directed others to more classical arguments about god, existence and the use of logic.  My spiritual views do not require that evolution be guided, so I’m not in this argument to support any worldview a prioris.

Others here have argued that because leading ID advocates have religious views and because they may use ID to pursue a social/political agenda, that in itself disqualifies ID as a legitimate scientific theory.  If I have to tell you how bad this logic is, there’s probably no hope for you. If a Darwinist uses Darwinism as a basis (legitimate or not) for pursuing a Eugenics program where “inferior” people are sterilized, that doesn’t say anything about the theory itself.  The theory of ID, like the theory of Darwinistic evolution,  must be argued on its scientific merits alone and not on the matter of the motivations, religious beliefs, or character of those advocating ID theory or using it for various non-scientific promotions.

Even if (hypothetically) young-earth Christian fundamentalists do plan to use ID via the “Wedge Document” to form a theocratic government and force students to study the Bible, that would have no bearing on whether or not ID itself is a good scientific theory.  Even if all ID advocates are lying hypocrites with dastardly plans to use ID in some horrific social fashion, that is still not a valid argument that ID theory is not scientific.

 

Comments
"we don’t know *which* human committed an arson or murder, somehow science is unwilling to say *a* human did it." I think you are misrepresenting what WJM said. Forensics isn't about finding who the human responsible for the murder is. It's about determining IF a murder or arson took place. Given your strict standards, you are claiming that such a determination is unreasonable. ID is a theoretical framework against the idea that all biological things developed ONLY by natural selection acting on random mutation. That statement is ALREADY false. Molecular engineering, Dog diversification, creating some forms of biological life. I predict that if ID were employed within evolutionary biology, evolutionary biology would yield more beneficial results. As we have it now assuming everything is natural may in fact be wasting our time and money on things that may not have occurred naturally! Think if forensics worked the same way!?! All deaths can be explained naturally, now lets study how it happened naturally. THink of all the murderers who would be on the street!ForJah
December 7, 2014
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eigenstate: When we are investigating scientifically, though, we only have as plausible conclusions that proceed from models with capable and present designers, be they human, alien, impersonal or otherwise. ID can’t provide such a model, so it can’t play, scientifically.
So, you are saying that everything that is subject to scientific investigation must have a capable and present cause assigned to it? If something (e.g. the universe) has no capable and present cause assigned to it, it cannot be part of scientific investigation or be part of a scientific model?Box
December 7, 2014
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The reality is what it is. When we are investigating scientifically, though, we only have as plausible conclusions that proceed from models with capable and present designers, be they human, alien, impersonal or otherwise. ID can’t provide such a model, so it can’t play, scientifically. Humans qualify for crop circles, so that model qualifies at least for testing and evaluation (whether it survives tests for falsification is another matter, but it at least gets to play).
So, SETI can't play, right? No capable and present designers, as you say. Why did you try to give them cover with with your previous apologetics? Further, just to clarify, if we land on an otherwise uninhabited, dead planet with no sign of life or anything remotely life-like, and find this pattern: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=crop+circle&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=880C9DFE3920AAE569EF1123ECCD4E67163E6CC0&selectedIndex=4 .... etched in flat stone several miles across so that it is only visible from the sky, our only course of scientific investigation is to try and figure out how natural forces generated the pattern?William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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In the crop circle example, there was quite a bit of scientific investigation into the nature of the circles. Several papers by W.C. Levengood were published examining the physical properties of the crop circle stalks that were bent to make the design. This led to various theories about how the stalks were bent. It is well known that the physical evidence of many crop circles simply didn't match up to the techniques claimed to be used by the self-described hoaxters. This is evident in the available scientific literature. Whether or not they are man-made, it is obvious that scientific progress can be made without knowing anything about the designer or instantiating process by simply examining the artifact/pattern.William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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@WJM
No, this is actually where anti-ID advocates simply go off the rails in their apparent need to find somewhere to cordon of the oncoming reasonable inferences and conclusion because they are ideologically opposed to them.
Ideological opposition or support won't help, either way. If you are going to build a model, you need resources to incorporate *into* your model, and intelligent design doesn't have that. Crop circle investigations do -- there are any numbers of humans who are capable and present at the time of these formations to make the model work. This can be seen from the other side. Let's say I have an overwhelming intuition of design. I'm ideologically pre-committed to the conclusion that a Designer created biological life. How does that help or hurt the process? Since we are talking about science, it's no more a problem than someone who's philosophically against the idea -- it's what goes into the model that is used for testing, evaluating and incorporating into the knowledge base. Since ID has no designers they can place as present and capable (not identify in particular -- YHWH versus Zoroaster, etc., just actual beings with the required capabilities), they have no scientific model to advance. The principle is clear and effective. ID just can't populate the need space in the model for even a modest scientific project, whereas with crop circles we can, and have. Same rules, same epistemology. ID just doesn't have enough to bootstrap itself into contention, scientifically.
Actually, I’m rather banking on committed anti-IDists like yourself to provide the material evidence of exactly what I’m talking about – and you just did. As if it matters whether or not a a human designed a crop circle; the design inference can obviously be made from nothing more than the object or pattern in question.
It doesn't matter if a human did it or aliens did it or natural processes somehow(!) did it. The reality is what it is. When we are investigating scientifically, though, we only have as plausible conclusions that proceed from models with capable and present designers, be they human, alien, impersonal or otherwise. ID can't provide such a model, so it can't play, scientifically. Humans qualify for crop circles, so that model qualifies at least for testing and evaluation (whether it survives tests for falsification is another matter, but it at least gets to play).eigenstate
December 7, 2014
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eigenstate said:
It’s unreasonable to use the abstractions for concrete conclusions. “Intelligent entities” is an abstraction, and does not qualify for the matching process between putative artisans and their artifacts.
No, it's a generalization of a type of causal agency known to exist, like "random mutations" or "natural selection". I invite onlookers to examine your attempt to have your cake and eat it too, with your following SETI apologetics:
SETI, for example, cannot confine its investigations to humans as sources of intelligent patterns or signals. But they don’t resort to an abstraction like “intelligent entities”, and can’t because that doesn’t ground their search. Instead they hypothesize that other sentient beings in the universe would use patterns, structures, symbols etc. in ways that are at least roughly analogous to humans, or comprehensible to humans at some level, because these beings are part of the same universe and processes that produced use, and similarly constrained by physics, etc. Even with that kind of care, it’s problematic for SETI, and they run the risks of interpreting natural signals as “designed signals” on one side (see the discovery of radio signals from pulsars in 60s), and missing other “designed signals” because we don’t know how to identify intelligence beyond what “human intelligence” implicates.
Eigenstate gives SETI a pass because their unknown intelligences and kind of existence are assumed to be beings somewhat similar to humans. However, if SETI did locate such a signal, and had no access to the assumed extraterrestrials, what would they do with it? Would they attempt to analyze it? If they found what appeared to be hidden code, would they attempt to decode it (like in the movie "Contact")? Would the science stop because we had no factual knowledge about the source of the signal? Your differential between my "intelligent entities" and "human-like extraterrestrials" is nothing more than a semantic dividing line protecting an ideological position. Would it matter if the signal that SETI received actually came from human-like extraterrstrials, or if actually came from god, or a flying spaghetti monster, or rain fairies, or some supernatural agency, from the future, or from an alternate dimension? Of course not. Whatever it's assumed origin, we can still scientifically process the nature of the signal to whatever degree possible. Please note what you are doing; in the case of artifacts of unobserved origin, you are claiming that the difference between there being a line of scientific investigation open and one not being open lies solely in what we have imagined or have assumed the designing intelligences to be like (even while insisting in non-SETI cases that the designer be identified before further science can commence). For artifacts on Earth, your point is apparently that if we assume the designers are human, then scientific progress can be made. If we postulate that perhaps a non-human designer may be responsible, then until we can identify the designer no further investigation is possible .... except for SETI, which assumes a human-like extraterrestrial intelligence as the source of the type of signal they are looking for. It appears to me that your sole objection to design inferences in ID theory is your view that IDists don't specifically require that any hypothesized intelligent agency be "human-like".William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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eigenstate said:
For ID, this is damning. Once we decide that this is the product of a designer, the designer becomes the key, the linchpin in the ongoing investigation. Anything new we might surmise from the artifact is only as good as it’s match with this designer, and his/her/their capabilities and methods. If ID insists on scrupulously avoiding incorporating the designer into the model, you’re stopped, stuck. Fortunately, in practice that doesn’t happen, because models that conclude design but don’t incorporate a designer into the operational model don’t and can’t get used in science.
The idea that science would come to a stop wrt a designed object ot pattern just because we are unable to identify the nature of the designing intelligence is absurd on the face of it. It baffles me how someone can make such a statement in good faith. As if we couldn't or wouldn't bother to attempt to decode or understand the meaning of the pattern, or figure out how it worked, or attempt to understand the engineering principles, the fabrication process, etc. Of course, we would attempt to identify the designing intelligence, but I can't see how any reasonable person can say that there would be no avenue for scientific investigation of the thing in question unless there was a "matching" designer to be found.William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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Eigenstate @ 64 said:
This is where ID veers off into religion, superstition, and the invincible intuition against all evidence: if you can’t identify a present (at the time) and capable designer to match against artifacts and other forensic evidence, you’re hosed.
No, this is actually where anti-ID advocates simply go off the rails in their apparent need to find somewhere to cordon of the oncoming reasonable inferences and conclusion because they are ideologically opposed to them. You say:
Yes, quite unreasonable. Design inferences are the product of a matching process where the artifacts or forensic evidence is aligned with causal agent to produce a model of what happened.
This is not just untrue, it's untrue even in principle. In fact, it's obvious nonsense. One needs absolutely no information at all about who or what created a crop circle, why, or how, to infer from pattern itself that it was designed by some sort of intelligence, whether human or not.
Up thread you made the beginner mistake of complaining that if we don’t know *which* human committed an arson or murder, somehow science is unwilling to say *a* human did it.
Actually, I'm rather banking on committed anti-IDists like yourself to provide the material evidence of exactly what I'm talking about - and you just did. As if it matters whether or not a a human designed a crop circle; the design inference can obviously be made from nothing more than the object or pattern in question.William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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Me_Think:
Gary S. Gaulin @ 31 I can network with others and sometimes contact through email when I have a model a respected scientist would be genuinely interested in and will without my asking take the time to write back about
How do you expect anyone to consider your theory seriously ? Please read your own theory. Right there at start, your genetic algorithm chart shows individual fitness , desired fitness etc. There is only genotype fitness in population – not individual fitness, and there is no ‘desired fitness’. Fitness is relative and depends on environment. How can your theory be any good if you have poor grasp of basics.
I already spent longer than I should have had to searching for an Evolutionary Algorithm flowchart all in your camp can agree on. I only discovered that in this case I can't please everybody, all the time. Just more moving goalposts while pretending that it's my fault you can't get on the same page with each other in regards to what the Darwinian model actually looks like. But you are very much welcomed to offer a new flowchart along with edited text you want the preface of the theory changed to. The more precise you make it the better, especially in regards to where the "natural selection" variable is located. What do YOU have?Gary S. Gaulin
December 7, 2014
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@WJM,
Of course it doesn’t put an end to science; it simply changes the nature of the investigation. For example, just because a crop circle is inferred to have been designed because of the nature of the pattern doesn’t mean further scientific inquiry ends.
No, but it's instructive (and damning) for ID to look at what actually happens in this case with crop circles. As (I hope!) you know, the design inference has been made by science regarding crop circles -- it's humans pranking us. Is that the end of the matter? In one way, yes, just because once we've concluded it's just prankery, much the interest wanes: that's mundane compared to the tantalizing prospect of "aliens", etc. that others have advanced regarding crop circles. But the investigation needn't stop. It just pivots to looking for which humans did it, and how they did it. As I recall, in some cases the pranksters have reproduced the work for journalists to show how it's done (Matt Ridley did this, among others, IIRC), but the salient point here is the investigation then focuses on humans, the who and the how. We don't reverse-engineer the crop bending at that point -- that's going at things the hard and unreliable way. Instead, we focus on finding out who did it, and work to find out through them how the phenomena are produced. If Matt Ridley will show you how he made crop circles that fooled so many, including major news organizations, you're a fool to ignore his demonstration and work to come up with other hypotheses only. For ID, this is damning. Once we decide that this is the product of a designer, the designer becomes the key, the linchpin in the ongoing investigation. Anything new we might surmise from the artifact is only as good as it's match with this designer, and his/her/their capabilities and methods. If ID insists on scrupulously avoiding incorporating the designer into the model, you're stopped, stuck. Fortunately, in practice that doesn't happen, because models that conclude design but don't incorporate a designer into the operational model don't and can't get used in science.
From that point, science can examine the physical characteristics of the affected plants to see how they were made into the patterned arrangement. Different theories can be put forwards as to how the stalks were bent and by what process. Also, depending on the pattern left, one might hope to decode the meaning of the pattern. They can compare the pattern to other crop circle patterns for similarities and clues as to their origin and purpose.
See above. We have a real outcome to look at here, and that's not what happened. As soon as we conclude "pranksters", that all goes out the window. No one gives a hoot about how the stalks were bent *OUTSIDE* of the pranksters' technique; the investigation has ended in that sense, and been transferred to a subsequent investigation that is all about specific pranksters and their techniques. No one (that I know of) is still looking at crop circles apart from prankster-centric investigations. There is not point, no gain. With ID, there is the same effect, only with ID, we are nowhere and with no prospects (by IDs own admission) on investigating the particular designer.
Other scientists would certainly be free to pursue a naturalistic origin narrative for the pattern if they so desired. A design inference doesn’t stop any science, it just provides an additional, alternative heuristic for the scientific investigation going forward. Classifying the design inference as “non-scientific” in nature essentially puts a huge barrier up against investigation down that road.
Such inferences don't and can't stop science, you're right. They just aren't helpful in practice. And this doesn't need to accepted just because i said it, it's a market dynamic: if it worked, there is huge demand for results based on this, and plenty of religiously or otherwise motivated smart people who will gladly provide supply for that demand. If such conclusions provided any advantage for building practical knowledge, that knowledge is so valuable that we should expect, long before now, to see ID gurus making out like bandits based on their insider advantage. But alas, this is not what we see. In the free market, ID as an advantage has nothing to show. It has enormous advantages in terms of political rhetoric and bolstering the beliefs of the faithful, who increasingly are feeling besieged by secularism and secular modes of reasoning, and that explains the popularity and influence of the movement. If ID were to be judged on its utility in powering scientific progress, we could not even say it has reached a humble peak and died. In this regard it was stillborn. It has, and will have, bright and durable prospects in a cultural sense, though because it has great value as an apologetics device.eigenstate
December 7, 2014
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Reciprocating Bill #63,
Box: Are you saying that the only scientific investigation you can think of is the search for a naturalistic explanation of a phenomenon? IOW in your frame of mind there is no other scientific investigation possible of e.g. Stonehenge, prehistoric art or the AntiKythera than the the search for a naturalistic explanation?
Reciprocating Bill: No, I’m saying that I’ve never seen a credible description of how such a program could/would go forward.
Other than the search for a naturalistic explanation? How about studying and finding out how things work? Just like the way many scientific research proceeds right now - even in biology.
Reciprocating Bill: Propose an empirical research program into the OOL based on the the heuristic of “intelligence.”
An heuristic based on intelligence may direct scientific research in the direction of building the simplest replicator unconstrained by the stipulation of a purely naturalistic setting.Box
December 7, 2014
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@WJM,
Anti-ID advocates should introspectively examine the following: 1. Do humans possess a capacity to generate artifacts that are otherwise scientifically implausible for nature to generate?
In the sense you intend, yes. Nature, without humans or other living things around to generate such artifacts, such artifacts would not be found. But, on a scientific understanding, humans themselves are generated by impersonal nature, so you get a production like this: 1. impersonal nature produced humans. 2. humans produce Gibson Les Paul electric guitars. 3. Impersonal nature (indirectly) produces electric guitars. I believe you are asking if nature produces electric guitars with producing humans (or similar) to make guitars first. The answer to that is:no "direct" processes are known, or even suspected.
2. Is it unreasonable to identify that capacity as “intelligent design”?
It's reasonable insofar as IDers (and others) can use this term without equivocating; "Intelligent Design" != "intelligent design". It seems the equivocation is creeping into your post here, so while it's a reasonable term on its own, there's good reasons to use some other term for clarity.
3. Is it unreasonable to hypothesize that humans are not the only entities with such a capacity, to one degree or another?
It is reasonable to hypothesize such.
4. Is it unreasonable to expect to be able to identify some such artifacts of intelligent design, even if we cannot identify the designer or the instantiation process, and even if we do not believe humans are plausible as the designer?
Yes, quite unreasonable. Design inferences are the product of a matching process where the artifacts or forensic evidence is aligned with causal agent to produce a model of what happened. Up thread you made the beginner mistake of complaining that if we don't know *which* human committed an arson or murder, somehow science is unwilling to say *a* human did it. The social security number is not needed for such questions. The presence and capacity of one or more humans (whoever they are) is needed for the conclusion of "design". This is where ID veers off into religion, superstition, and the invincible intuition against all evidence: if you can't identify a present (at the time) and capable designer to match against artifacts and other forensic evidence, you're hosed. Without that, you are simply falling into circular reasoning: something that is capable of making this thing, made this thing. Precision and clarity is needed on this point. Just as we do not need to know the SSN of a putative suspect in an arson case to conclude "some human did this", but only the general presence of humans in the area at the time/place, and their observed capabilities for starting fires, etc., we do NOT need to know the particular identity of any putative Life Designer. We don't need to "identify the Designer" by name. But we DO need to establish the general presence at that time/place and capacity of this putative Designer along with its capabilities for creating/diversifying life. And this is where religion and ID unite. ID is a "religious cultural phenomenon" because the religious intuition of many is that God, or some divine being(s) WAS present and capable at the time life creation. For the religious, and for religious reasons, nothing needs to be shown regarding the available Designer. That's a show-stopper, though, for the scientific approach. The religious intuition may be very strong, even overwhelming for the religious believer, but that counts for naught in science, and the design conclusion cannot be reasonably made, as no present and capable designers are in the picture.
5. If the distinction between some artifacts of design and what nature can be expected to produce otherwise is so great that nature cannot even be a plausible candidate (battleship vs pile of rocks), is it unreasonable to expect that this vast implausibility can be operationalized in terms of a useful identifying differential metric? (At least on a provisional basis until some new information changes the plausibility of natural explanations.)
Yes, very unreasonable. What we observe in humans designing demonstrates that designs regularly incorporate mundane and simplistic (patterns and structures that might otherwise be accounted for without design) elements, thus effectively "encrypting" design for anyone looking just at the specimen. Beyond that, see above regarding the crucial nature of the matching process, connecting available and capable designers with the artifact. If you don't have the "present and capable designer" part of the ledger filled out, there is *in principle* no way to identify pattern or signals in the artifact that enable a design inference. In humans, we implicitly supply this "present and capable designer" with "humans", by recognition. If we see "David Gilmour was here" spelled out in stones on a beach, we "recognize" design by other humans. I suspect many IDers suppose they something "in the stones" that signifies design, completely independent of any designer knowledge. They are positing plausibly present and capable designers -- humans -- and are creating this match between human capabilities and the arrangement of the stones on the beach. This is fundamentally unlike what ID proposes, that we "see the stones", so to speak, and conclude design without any causal resources that enable a match to be made. Religious intuitions provide a superstitious stand-in for the "presence and capability of the designer" part in this case, which is, again, why ID and religion have such an intimate connection.
6. Isn’t it reasonable to find instantiations of matter that are only known to be produced by intelligent entities, such as irreducibly complex machines or semiotic systems, and use them also as identifying hallmarks of intelligent activity – again, at least on a provisional basis?
It's unreasonable to use the abstractions for concrete conclusions. "Intelligent entities" is an abstraction, and does not qualify for the matching process between putative artisans and their artifacts. When you substitute this abstraction for a concrete designer, you subvert the process by which you judge. SETI, for example, cannot confine its investigations to humans as sources of intelligent patterns or signals. But they don't resort to an abstraction like "intelligent entities", and can't because that doesn't ground their search. Instead they hypothesize that other sentient beings in the universe would use patterns, structures, symbols etc. in ways that are at least roughly analogous to humans, or comprehensible to humans at some level, because these beings are part of the same universe and processes that produced use, and similarly constrained by physics, etc. Even with that kind of care, it's problematic for SETI, and they run the risks of interpreting natural signals as "designed signals" on one side (see the discovery of radio signals from pulsars in 60s), and missing other "designed signals" because we don't know how to identify intelligence beyond what "human intelligence" implicates.
7. Is there some principle that prevents us from establishing useful metrics or categorically exclusive examples of ID instantiations and applying those in the world as a means of establishing whether or not an artifact is best explained by ID?
Due to the nature of design itself, any proposed metrics would not be something you'd want to depend on or trust. You can propose them, and even work on ways to calculate them (hasn't been done yet, but I suppose someone in the ID camp will take this challenge seriously at some point), but design is a form of encryption; it's a one way cypher. That does not mean we cannot identify design -- we do this routinely. But we do it by this matching process, connecting available and capable designers with putative design artifacts. If the nature of the problem in terms of encryption isn't clear, consider the Halting Problem in computing. Whether a given non-trivial program will finish or halt is formally undecidable. How can this be? Can't we reasonably expect to find the "haltingness", some metric that indicates one way or the other? This is not a tight analogy with the design inference, but the nature of the problem is the same in both. Design inferences that only look at the artifact have inherent undecidability. It's important to add that software programmer isn't consciously "hiding" or "encrypting" the presence of absence of halting states within her program; it's an intrinsic problem in the one-way process of programming to code generation. Design processes have similar limitations. A designer may not be consciously hiding his work, but the artifact itself does not and cannot contain in and of itself the conditions for deducing design.
8. Is it reasonable to say that establishing that an artifact is most likely the result of ID adds nothing of value to the ongoing investigation? It seems to me it would change the nature of the investigation profoundly.
It depends on what you mean by "establishing". It adds to the investigation insofar as it contributes new evidence or knowledge about the designer. If design is "established", as a rhetorical matter, but without establishing a designer, then I can't see anything of value being added, and lots of problems being introduced. In practice it wouldn't matter, because people who actually took on the task of investigating would revert back to "naturalistic investigation" -- standard scientific methods -- in the absence of a designer to incorporate into their model. Without a designer that bears incorporating into a scientific model, science would just have to keep developing models that don't incorporating a designer (by definition!).
If reasonable people can come to some reasonable conclusions through the above without trying to protect ideological a prioris, then the debate can move beyond talking-point denialism and obstructionism and into the realm of: “Okay, given ID exists, and given there is/may be a means of ascertaining that something is best explained as the product of ID, now what?
There is nothing wrong with the goal, as stated, in strict terms. But as a practical matter, "best explained" is a term ID should stay away from, if it wants to take itself seriously and be taken seriously by others. 'Best explained' has become a euphemism in practice for "fits my intuition", and where religious intuitions are strong, as they are in the ID community, this is just asking for trouble. If it's the "best explanation", you won't need to push it as such. The falsification tests it passes will provide all the credibility you need and want. If you don't have hard tests it passes that are liable to falsification, you really don't have anything of import to offer anyway, and calling it the "best explanation" is reduced to religious/cultural/political rhetoric.eigenstate
December 7, 2014
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Box:
Are you saying that the only scientific investigation you can think of is the search for a naturalistic explanation of a phenomenon?
No, I’m saying that I’ve never seen a credible description of how the alternative program could/would go forward. I’m also saying, “knock yourself out” with same, Box. Think outside of yourself. Propose an empirical research program into the OOL based on the the heuristic of “intelligence.” After all, it’s up to those who don’t find “intelligence” a non-starter in that context to think of just how to investigate same.Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2014
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Pachy you ask,,, "Do you need to be reminded again about what a scientific theory is?" I don't know about WJM, but as far as I'm concerned, I would like to know what you think a scientific theory is. And if it is not too much trouble, I would also like to know exactly what experiment can be performed in the laboratory that would potentially falsify Darwinism: It's Easier to Falsify Intelligent Design than Darwinian Evolution - Michael Behe, PhD - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T1v_VLueGk Darwinism is a Pseudo-Science: The primary reasons why Darwinism is a pseudo-science instead of a proper science are as such: 1. No Rigid Mathematical Basis (Falsification Criteria) 2. No Demonstrated Empirical Basis 3. Random Mutation and Natural Selection Are Both Grossly Inadequate as ‘creative engines’ 4. Information is not reducible to a material basis https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oaPcK-KCppBztIJmXUBXTvZTZ5lHV4Qg_pnzmvVL2Qw/editbornagain77
December 7, 2014
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Reciprocating Bill #60,
Reciprocating Bill: Knock yourselves out. But I see no such investigation based upon this alternative heuristic, WJM, nor a credible description of how such a program would go forward. Can you propose an empirical research program based upon that heuristic?
Are you saying that the only scientific investigation you can think of is the search for a naturalistic explanation of a phenomenon? IOW in your frame of mind there is no other scientific investigation possible of e.g. Stonehenge, prehistoric art or the AntiKythera than the the search for a naturalistic explanation?Box
December 7, 2014
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WJM:
A design inference doesn’t stop any science, it just provides an additional, alternative heuristic for the scientific investigation going forward. Classifying the design inference as “non-scientific” in nature essentially puts a huge barrier up against investigation down that road.
Knock yourselves out. But I see no such investigation based upon this alternative heuristic, WJM, nor a credible description of how such a program would go forward. Can you propose an empirical research program based upon that heuristic? That said, what I am disputing is UB's claim that a reliable "signal" for intelligence operative at the OOL has already been established by means of the armchair reasoning over current biological science he describes. It hasn't.Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2014
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RB said:
The assumption that an “intelligence” was required is the science stopper – because that assumption, and it’s claim that natural origins are in principle impossible, puts a stop to all investigation into natural events while offering no guidance for further empirical work.
Of course it doesn't put an end to science; it simply changes the nature of the investigation. For example, just because a crop circle is inferred to have been designed because of the nature of the pattern doesn't mean further scientific inquiry ends. From that point, science can examine the physical characteristics of the affected plants to see how they were made into the patterned arrangement. Different theories can be put forwards as to how the stalks were bent and by what process. Also, depending on the pattern left, one might hope to decode the meaning of the pattern. They can compare the pattern to other crop circle patterns for similarities and clues as to their origin and purpose. Other scientists would certainly be free to pursue a naturalistic origin narrative for the pattern if they so desired. A design inference doesn't stop any science, it just provides an additional, alternative heuristic for the scientific investigation going forward. Classifying the design inference as "non-scientific" in nature essentially puts a huge barrier up against investigation down that road.William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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WJM said: "Intelligent Design Theory" What Intelligent Design Theory? Do you need to be reminded again about what a scientific theory is?Pachyaena
December 7, 2014
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UB:
Bill, outside of the cell, there is only one single source of memory being encoded with dimensional representations — and that is through intelligent action. The physics surrounding such systems are coherent and unambiguous. There is no second place finisher. You want to discount this knowledge under the objection that, as you say, ”we don’t know what natural circumstances gave/give rise to replicators capable of Darwinian evolution”. I’m surprised that you don’t see the fallacy inherent in that position.
I’m afraid you’ve got it backwards, UB. It doesn’t follow from the fact that human beings create representations (“dimensional” or otherwise) that analogous phenomena can’t have arisen from other, natural processes (selection among simpler replicators devoid of "dimensional representation" as you define it, for example). Of course it remains to be shown if, how and why that process got underway - none of that is assumed, other than as a starting point for the real empirical work. That’s where the science starts, not stops. Armchairs (neither yours nor mine) need not stir. Since we don’t understand the origins of the vast majority of such instances (those seen in living organisms), and have no basis from which to rule out natural processes, such replicators can’t be a signal for intelligence at the origin of life. The assumption that an “intelligence” was required is the science stopper - because that assumption, and it’s claim that natural origins are in principle impossible, puts a stop to all investigation into natural events while offering no guidance for further empirical work. (P.S. "Coherent." You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. An argument can be perfectly coherent, yet completely mistaken.)Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2014
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Pachyaena @53: I'm willing to accept and dish out a certain degree of rhetoric and invective along with meaningful argument and debate; I'm not willing to put up with posts from anti-IDers that are literally nothing more than invective and rhetoric. And yes, I will tolerate IDists who do little but insult anti-IDists because I'm openly unfair that way. If you don't like it, argue with someone else. If your goal here is to out ID supporters as non-virtuous and hypocritical, let me save you the trouble in my case: I don't claim to be virtuous and I openly admit to being hypocritical. So? That doesn't make ID a non-fact; it doesn't make ID theory non-scientific; it doesn't make any of my arguments less logical or reasonable. You and your ilk seem to think that attacking the character and motivations of your debate opponents can stand in place of a reasoned, logical, or evidence-based argument. Note how Keith has remained active on UD for much longer than others who came in after Mr. Arrington granted amnesty; it's because Keith realizes that to continue arguing here, he must keep his ratio of insult to substance at an acceptable level for this venue. You must learn to play by house rules and by thread starter rules. You want to participate in my thread, we do so by my rules. I don't claim they are fair. Now, behave yourself or sod off.William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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IMO, some of the way that biology is currently investigated is according to a design heuristic, such reverse-engineering biological features and applying them to technology. You don't reverse-engineer features supposedly haphazardly honed only for reproductive success and expect to find design efficiency for technologies that have nothing to do with reproductive success. Under a design framework, investigations into biological feature relationships would no longer be predicated on the idea of a haphazard, chance process but rather on the premise of deliberate, intelligent choices. It changes where you look for things and what kind of things you expect to find. Instead of the simple dismissal of a laryngal nerve's path as haphazard due to an unguided process, the question "why would it be designed this way?" leads to a deeper investigation as to the potential benefits of the path of the nerve. Many biological features that were once touted as evidence of "bad design" (a poor argument against ID) have been later found to be highly advanced designs that took into account other things that we were at the time unaware of. That is a profoundly different kind of investigation; on the Darwinism side, there is "how did the nerve get this way?"; on the ID side, there is "what is the purpose of this particular design? What engineering goal is it achieving, what problem is it solving, by being structured in such a way? These are courses of investigation that diverge on the principle of what one is expecting as the causal source of the thing in question. Obviously, the entire investigatory heuristic is different. The difference can be illustrated this way: Darwinists think they are sifting through a rockpile that happens to have some interesting formations; their curiosity is about defining the formations and cataloging their causal history and maybe finding some formations that might be useful. IDists think they are investigating a highly advanced technology generated by a highly advanced intelligence. They don't expect to find much junk and they expect to find sophisticated engineering virtually everywhere they look, which makes them look harder at things that appear on first blush to be "poorly designed", instead of dismissing it as poor design at the first opportunity.
While you’re at it, will you explain how ‘design’ causes things? For example, when an architect designs a house, does the architect and/or the design cause the house?
It's a necessary part of the causal chain. It's not sufficient in itself to cause the house. ID theory only claims that ID is a necessary part of the causal chain wrt designed artifacts.
Instead of design/designer, why don’t you creationists be honest and use the words that you’re actually thinking: create/creation/creator/God?
I'm being as honest as I can be. It's not my problem that my views don't conform to your preconceptions about what IDists "really think".William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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Pachy at 52,,, as to
"IDers have been asked many times to explain how that ‘saying’ the universe (including life, evolution, etc.) is designed-created would productively/positively “change” the way in which the universe (including life, evolution, etc.) would be investigated,"
Besides the fact that Darwinism has not positively 'driven science' in the first place (in fact Darwinism hinders science by being useless bagage, i.e. a 'narrative gloss',,,
Science Owes Nothing To Darwinism - Nov. 2014 https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/science-owes-nothing-to-darwinism-jonathan-wells/#comment-531669
Presupposing design, instead of presupposing 'its an accident', has recently advanced science in at least three areas that I am aware of. One area is with Robin Collins in the refinement of the Privileged Planet Principle of Gonzalez (i.e. The universe is designed for discoverability),,,
The Fine-Tuning for Discoverability - Robin Collins - March 22, 2014 Excerpt: Examples of fine - tuning for discoverability.,,, The most dramatic confirmation of the discoverability/livability optimality thesis (DLO) is the dependence of the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMB) on the baryon to photon ratio.,,, ...the intensity of CMB depends on the photon to baryon ratio, (??b), which is the ratio of the average number of photons per unit volume of space to the average number of baryons (protons plus neutrons) per unit volume. At present this ratio is approximately a billion to one (10^9) , but it could be anywhere from one to infinity; it traces back to the degree of asymmetry in matter and anti - matter right after the beginning of the universe – for approximately every billion particles of antimatter, there was a billion and one particles of matter.,,, The only livability effect this ratio has is on whether or not galaxies can form that have near - optimally livability zones. As long as this condition is met, the value of this ratio has no further effects on livability. Hence, the DLO predicts that within this range, the value of this ratio will be such as to maximize the intensity of the CMB as observed by typical observers. According to my calculations – which have been verified by three other physicists -- to within the margin of error of the experimentally determined parameters (~20%), the value of the photon to baryon ratio is such that it maximizes the CMB. This is shown in Figure 1 below. (pg. 13) It is easy to see that this prediction could have been disconfirmed. In fact, when I first made the calculations in the fall of 2011, I made a mistake and thought I had refuted this thesis since those calculations showed the intensity of the CMB maximizes at a value different than the photon - baryon ratio in our universe. So, not only does the DLO lead us to expect this ratio, but it provides an ultimate explanation for why it has this value,,, This is a case of a teleological thesis serving both a predictive and an ultimate explanatory role.,,, http://home.messiah.edu/~rcollins/Fine-tuning/Greer-Heard%20Forum%20paper%20draft%20for%20posting.pdf Greer Heard Forum: Robin Collins – “God and the Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Discovery” – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBWmMU7BXGE
Another area science is also advancing, by presupposing design instead of 'its just an accident', is with Denton's Privileged Species theisis:
Privileged Species - How the cosmos is designed for human life - website http://privilegedspecies.com/ Michael Denton's Privileged Species Premieres in Seattle to a Packed House - November 14, 2014 Excerpt: If life exists elsewhere (in the universe), its home would remind us of Earth and the aliens would reminds us of ourselves. The periodic table, so wonderfully concise, is a recipe for us. Oh, and for our way of life too. While focusing on the unique properties of water, carbon, and oxygen, Denton shows that the chemical elements appear beautifully structured to allow the development of technology, from our use of fire to the rise of computers. He emphasizes that this "stunning series of coincidences" is not a matter of scientific controversy, and in fact represents the great scientific discovery of the past century. It's a matter of fact, not interpretation. Denton observed that properties of nature uniquely fit for life continue to be discovered regularly and he offered the prediction that in the upcoming century scientists will uncover more and more. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/11/michael_denton_091241.html
Another area Science is also advancing, by presupposing design instead of 'its just an accident', is with 'systems biology':
"It has become clear in the past ten years that the concept of design is not merely an add-on meta-description of biological systems, of no scientific consequence, but is in fact a driver of science. A whole cohort of young scientists is being trained to “think like engineers” when looking at biological systems, using terms explicitly related to engineering design concepts: design, purpose, optimal tradeoffs for multiple goals, information, control, decision making, etc. This approach is widely seen as a successful, predictive, quantitative theory of biology." David Snoke*, Systems Biology as a Research Program for Intelligent Design podcast: "David Snoke: Systems Biology and Intelligent Design, pt. 1" http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-08-11T17_19_09-07_00 podcast: David Snoke: Systems Biology and Intelligent Design, pt. 2 http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-08-13T16_30_01-07_00 How the Burgeoning Field of Systems Biology Supports Intelligent Design - July 2014 Excerpt: Snoke lists various features in biology that have been found to function like goal-directed, top-down engineered systems: *"Negative feedback for stable operation." *"Frequency filtering" for extracting a signal from a noisy system. *Control and signaling to induce a response. *"Information storage" where information is stored for later use. In fact, Snoke observes: "This paradigm [of systems biology] is advancing the view that biology is essentially an information science with information operating on multiple hierarchical levels and in complex networks [13]. " *"Timing and synchronization," where organisms maintain clocks to ensure that different processes and events happen in the right order. *"Addressing," where signaling molecules are tagged with an address to help them arrive at their intended target. *"Hierarchies of function," where organisms maintain clocks to ensure that cellular processes and events happen at the right times and in the right order. *"Redundancy," as organisms contain backup systems or "fail-safes" if primary essential systems fail. *"Adaptation," where organisms are pre-engineered to be able to undergo small-scale adaptations to their environments. As Snoke explains, "These systems use randomization controlled by supersystems, just as the immune system uses randomization in a very controlled way," and "Only part of the system is allowed to vary randomly, while the rest is highly conserved.",,, Snoke observes that systems biology assumes that biological features are optimized, meaning, in part, that "just about everything in the cell does indeed have a role, i.e., that there is very little 'junk.'" He explains, "Some systems biologists go further than just assuming that every little thing has a purpose. Some argue that each item is fulfilling its purpose as well as is physically possible," and quotes additional authorities who assume that biological systems are optimized.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/07/when_biologists087871.html
bornagain77
December 7, 2014
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William J Murray said: "If you wish to be civil and not load your questions/comments with character-assassinating rhetoric and invective, I’ll be happy to debate/discuss. Otherwise, you will be censored." Well golly gee, William, maybe you should have a long talk with your uncivil, character-assassinating, rhetoric and invective spewing 'fellow traveler ilk', and yourself: "This is an example of what I mean when I say that anti-ID advocates make laughably bad arguments." "It’s difficult to imagine otherwise intelligent people that would say such absurd things when it comes to arguing against ID." "It’s just baffling how someone can say such a thing with a straight face." "And yet, instead of accepting correction when corrected, you continue to espouse common anti-ID talking points addressed in the Faq." (You sound like KF) "I can only assume you are deliberately being disingenuous. There is no list of websites in the FAQ, and it specifically summarizes what ID does and does not claim. It’s not my job to attempt to educate the willfully ignorant." "Well, if nothing else, AR, you’ve put to rest the question of whether or not your participation here is anything other than the willfully ignorant, talking-point parroting we’ve come to expect from anti-ID advocates that visit here." "Do you actually have something to contribute other rote than anti-ID talking points that are covered in the FAQ?" "It just seems like there are no anti-ID proponents that can even be bothered with actually trying to understand what it is they are arguing against." "To argue otherwise is foolishness." "Please note your use of rhetoric, whether intentional or not." "This is the kind of game-playing semantics that undermines the capacity for honest debate." "Nonsense. I wish there would be one honest person on the anti-ID side that would just stop the semantic, diversionary obstructionism." "Once we’re past that ideological road block..." "I’m not running an ID 101 clinic. Educate yourself about that which you wish to argue against. Or, avail yourself of the mini-clinic posts kf and others regularly post for the record here." Yeah William, you're a paragon of virtue.Pachyaena
December 7, 2014
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WJM said: "It seems to me it would change the nature of the investigation profoundly." IDers have been asked many times to explain how that 'saying' the universe (including life, evolution, etc.) is designed-created would productively/positively "change" the way in which the universe (including life, evolution, etc.) would be investigated, but nothing ever comes from those requests except silence, vague and useless assertions, religious sermons, insults and accusations, demands for proof of an undesigned/unguided/uncreated universe (including life, evolution, etc.), and more claims that 'saying' the universe (including life, evolution, etc.) is designed will "change" the way in which the universe (including life, evolution, etc.) would be investigated. So, here's your chance, William. Explain exactly how that 'saying' the universe (including life, evolution, etc.) is designed would productively/positively and "profoundly" "change" the way in which the universe (including life, evolution, etc.) would be (scientifically) investigated. It's already known that battleships and 747s are 'designed', by humans, so stick to what is relevant. While you're at it, will you explain how 'design' causes things? For example, when an architect designs a house, does the architect and/or the design cause the house? Instead of design/designer, why don't you creationists be honest and use the words that you're actually thinking: create/creation/creator/God?Pachyaena
December 7, 2014
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Pachyaena, since you obviously are an enlightened atheist/materialist, and since you also clearly claim to be 'scientific, reality minded', can you please tell us exactly how Quantum Mechanic's refutation of materialism as being the ultimate basis of 'reality' in any way, shape, or form, supports your claim that you are 'scientific, reality minded'???
Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world.,, The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical - and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939 "[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM Quantum Weirdness and God 8-9-2014 by Paul Giem - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=N7HHz14tS1c
bornagain77
December 7, 2014
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Pachyaena: I'm letting #44 & #49 stay so that others will have an example of the kind of anti-ID trollish tripe I'm censoring going forward in this thread. If you wish to be civil and not load your questions/comments with character-assassinating rhetoric and invective, I'll be happy to debate/discuss. Otherwise, you will be censored.William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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WJM, is it unreasonable for honest, sane, scientific, reality minded people to expect IDers to stop pushing unsupported, unreasonable assumptions, unsupported tools/methods, thoroughly refuted claims, lies/censorship/distortions/strawmen/red herrings/excuses/etc., intrusions into education, double standards, malicious accusations, sanctimonious sermons, and an odious, theocratic agenda?Pachyaena
December 7, 2014
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Anti-ID advocates should introspectively examine the following: 1. Do humans possess a capacity to generate artifacts that are otherwise scientifically implausible for nature to generate? 2. Is it unreasonable to identify that capacity as "intelligent design"? 3. Is it unreasonable to hypothesize that humans are not the only entities with such a capacity, to one degree or another? 4. Is it unreasonable to expect to be able to identify some such artifacts of intelligent design, even if we cannot identify the designer or the instantiation process, and even if we do not believe humans are plausible as the designer? 5. If the distinction between some artifacts of design and what nature can be expected to produce otherwise is so great that nature cannot even be a plausible candidate (battleship vs pile of rocks), is it unreasonable to expect that this vast implausibility can be operationalized in terms of a useful identifying differential metric? (At least on a provisional basis until some new information changes the plausibility of natural explanations.) 6. Isn't it reasonable to find instantiations of matter that are only known to be produced by intelligent entities, such as irreducibly complex machines or semiotic systems, and use them also as identifying hallmarks of intelligent activity - again, at least on a provisional basis? 7. Is there some principle that prevents us from establishing useful metrics or categorically exclusive examples of ID instantiations and applying those in the world as a means of establishing whether or not an artifact is best explained by ID? 8. Is it reasonable to say that establishing that an artifact is most likely the result of ID adds nothing of value to the ongoing investigation? It seems to me it would change the nature of the investigation profoundly. If reasonable people can come to some reasonable conclusions through the above without trying to protect ideological a prioris, then the debate can move beyond talking-point denialism and obstructionism and into the realm of: "Okay, given ID exists, and given there is/may be a means of ascertaining that something is best explained as the product of ID, now what?William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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The idea that ID is a religious theory is losing ground pretty quickly I think. There is more evidence to prove that people are motivated by fear of having to address ID arguments as a reason for making the claim, then evidence that ID is actually religious. By definition, it seems pretty neutral to me. The problem with objections to ID is that it doesn't just make ID inferences "unfalsifiable" but it makes anything else such as forensics and archaeology unfalsifiable. The idea of double standard has it's greatest application here. You accept the ID framework in these fields, and you don't accept it in Biology. Why? http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2014/12/etchings-500000-year-old-shell-appear-have-been-made-human-ancestor Take a look at this article. I could be an evolutionist and say things like...The shell doesn't contain CSI, or a pattern of any particular significance. We don't know how Homo erectus created therefore you can not extrapolate because you only see how homosapiens create! Find a homo erectus today, study it, and then your theory you can say they designed it, otherwise, it's not designed. Just because we currently don't know how the etchings on that shell could have come about by natural causation is no need to appeal to an agent whos design principles we can't study! If you can't see why every piece of my logic is flawed or unreasonable, then you are part of the problem. The lie and misrepresentations that ID has no merit, when it's theoretical framework has factual application in current fields of scientific study.ForJah
December 7, 2014
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congregate said:
What metric are you referring to, and what scientist came up with it?
I'm not running an ID 101 clinic. Educate yourself about that which you wish to argue against. Or, avail yourself of the mini-clinic posts kf and others regularly post for the record here.
Several candidates have been describe here at UD, I think.
And in published books and papers.
Whichever you are referring to, it has not only not been accepted by the mainstream consensus, it has not been accepted by even a tiny portion of working scientists.
What difference does that make, other than as an appeal to popularity in an environment openly hostile to ID theory in the first place? The theory must be argued by its merits, not according to how many scientists consider it valid.
Is there a metric that any two IDers can agree on?
What difference does that make? A robust and diverse attempt to quantify the defining characteristic difference between natural and intelligent agency is a perfectly reasonable way to proceed. Treating that as if it is a flaw in the undertaking is nothing more than another attempt to dismiss/stymie honest debate.
Does that conflict with your earlier suggestion that the metric is valid even though it has been rejected by mainstream consensus?
I suggested that mainstream consensus doesn't make a metric valid or non-valid. I don't argue that the metrics that have been offered by various ID proponents are valid; that I don't know. They seem to me to be reasonably good efforts at quantifying what we all know exists: the fundamental, qualitative difference between some artifacts of intelligent design and what nature can produce otherwise.William J Murray
December 7, 2014
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