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The Naturalists’ Conundrum

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Kantian Naturalist writes that almost all naturalists (including, presumably, himself) believe selection tends to favor true beliefs.

I don’t know why he would say this, because Neo-Darwinian Evolution (“NDE”) posits that selection favors characters that increase fitness as measured by relative reproductive fecundity. Per NDE, selection is indifferent the truth. It will select for a false belief if, for whatever reason, that belief increases fitness.

Now the naturalist might say that it is obvious that true belief must increase fitness more than false belief. Is it obvious? Consider the conundrum of religious belief from an NDE perspective:

1. By definition the naturalist believes religious belief is false.

2. The overwhelming majority of people throughout history have held religious belief.

3. Therefore, the naturalist must believe that the overwhelming majority of humans throughout history have held a false belief.

4. It follows that natural selection selected for a belief that the naturalist is convinced is false.

We can set to one side the question of whether a particular religious belief is actually false. The naturalist, by definition, believes they all are, and therefore he must believe that natural selection selected for a belief he thinks is false.

What is the naturalist to do? Indeed, if the naturalist concedes that natural selection at least sometimes selects for false beliefs, how can he have any confidence in his own conviction that naturalism itself is true?

Appeals to “the evidence” won’t save the naturalist here. Both sides of the religion issue appeal to evidence.

Comments
Box all I can do is to sincerely warn you, as I have warned BD many times, that the eastern cultures which root deep belief in the evolution of the soul (in reincarnation) are the cultures which are found to have the most horrendous NDE's: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near Death Experience Thailand Asia - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8M5J3zWG5g Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp You can integrate eastern beliefs into your worldview if you want Box, but as for myself, I'm sticking close to home to my Judeo-Christian roots. further note: Heaven Is Real: A Doctor’s Experience With the Afterlife - Dr. Eben Alexander - Oct 8, 2012 Excerpt: One of the few places I didn’t have trouble getting my story across was a place I’d seen fairly little of before my experience: church. The first time I entered a church after my coma, I saw everything with fresh eyes. The colors of the stained-glass windows recalled the luminous beauty of the landscapes I’d seen in the world above. The deep bass notes of the organ reminded me of how thoughts and emotions in that world are like waves that move through you. And, most important, a painting of Jesus breaking bread with his disciples evoked the message that lay at the very heart of my journey: that we are loved and accepted unconditionally by a God even more grand and unfathomably glorious than the one I’d learned of as a child in Sunday school. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/07/proof-of-heaven-a-doctor-s-experience-with-the-afterlife.html Now Box, it seems incredible to me that people who believe reincarnation trust in God's love so much as to not believe that He would ever allow anyone to go to hell, yet on the other hand they will not trust in God's love enough to believe that he would openly display His love for us by defeat sin and death on the cross, on our behalf, so that we may reunited with him.,,, To me that makes perfect sense as to what God would do for those who are separated from Him.bornagain77
December 20, 2012
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Bruce
Many people make major changes in their outlook at an advanced age
A few, not many. Selfishness and self-centeredness do not usually reverse themselves, and it never happens without God's grace.
Many people “mellow out”—become much less driven and more sensitive and kind—when they reach advanced age.
The character doesn't change so much as age forces selfishness or unselfishness to take on a new texture. When, for example, the selfish person moving away from God is young, lust tends to rule. When passions wane, or when they are overindulged in, the selfishness of lust transforms into the pride of a middle-age power grab, which, in turn, tends to replaced by the clutching avarice of old age. In each case, the intensity of the selfishness increases and the heart continues to harden.
I personally witnessed this when the ex husband of a woman I know called her two weeks before his death from a heart attack wishing to reconcile after years of animosity. She reported to me that his attitude had “completely changed”, and for the first time he was actually pleasant to talk to.
As I wrote, "Still, it can be done because the grace of God is available even up to the last moment." Context, context, context!
And what about people who die in their teens or their twenties, long before their character has solidified due to advanced age? Do they also suddenly become “no longer pliable” with an “irreversible” character?
Some do, some don't. A young person who is dying is far more likely to change than an old person who is dying. So, the young person still has the opportunity to give one final yes or no to God. No one goes to Hell except through voluntary fault. No one will ever be able to say to God, "you didn't give me enough time or enough information." A loving God is a fair God.
This assertion is so obviously a rationalization that you or someone made up in order to somehow avoid the obvious conclusion that a God who would create a Hell ain’t very loving.
We know from experience that selfishness is inflationary and that hearts tend to harden over time. In any case, you have not addressed the question: Where are people supposed to go who want nothing to do with God?
Second, the attempt fails in any case. The God you portray is not a loving God. A loving God would never give up on a soul, would never say, “OK, I get it.”
God never gives up on a soul. He has not given up on you. That is why you are here right now, so that you can be released from the chains of Gnosticism. (Yes, your "novel" belief is just a warmed over version of the Gnostic heresy) After death, however, he will honor the choice that you have made and say, "OK, I get it." Sooner or later, we all run out of time. It will be the same with you.
A loving God would be there forever, with open arms (metaphorically speaking), making it known that whenever the prodigal soul wishes to return He will welcome and embrace her.
He will welcome and embrace you--until you die--at which time, He will honor you decision.
That’s what love does; that’s what love is!
Love doesn't just cuddle, it also issues warnings of impending danger. The most unloving thing a person can do is to say nothing while someone else is rushing headlong into destruction.StephenB
December 20, 2012
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Bruce David: re 142 An excellent addition. Our positions differ however in regard to the learning process at hand. I believe that human beings move from real unawareness of ourselves (e.g. not being able to think correctly) towards perfect awareness and control of ourselves. In your concept the learning process is more limited, because there is just one defect.Box
December 20, 2012
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"I am questioning the internal consistency of Stephen’s stated beliefs about God." as to this? 'What limitation in Him exists that He needed to sacrifice His son to make this possible?" The limitation is not in God, the limitation was in humans to overcome death! Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread." notes: If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image on the Shroud I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light', while having a deep NDE, have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth. In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? - article with video Excerpt: "Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffery Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensively http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/beyondbelief/experts-death-experience/story?id=14221154#.T_gydvW8jbIbornagain77
December 20, 2012
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Box: re 139: Well put. I would add to your last sentence, "Willing or not, at the end we all will reach the state of being in perfect harmony and understanding of ourselves," that we will also be in perfect harmony and understanding of God, our true relationship to God, and the nature of reality.Bruce David
December 20, 2012
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BA:
Seems like you are scoffing to me. Dang seems to me that you are proclaiming yourself to be wiser than God.
Then you are not very perceptive. I am not questioning God's wisdom at all. I am questioning the internal consistency of Stephen's stated beliefs about God. Big difference.Bruce David
December 20, 2012
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In re: Mung @ 135: I really don't know what exactly I should say here. On the one hand, I of course think, "yes, obviously, every contingent entity must have a cause -- that's just the principle of sufficient reason!" On the other hand, I wonder -- why must a contingent entity have an explanation? Why couldn't contingent entities just be contingent, for no reason at all? I mean, look, I'm of a philosophical bent, and I understand how invocations of brute contingency are profoundly intellectually unsatisfying. But so what? Maybe the correct response is, "so much the worse for our intellectual satisfactions!" In re: Mung @ 98: With regards to abiogenesis, again, look, I'm not a biochemist or abiogenesis researcher, and maybe there are profound problems with my thought above. I don't have answers to all of these questions. No one does. All I can do is work as hard I as I can, with the limited cognitive equipment I have, to work out the answers that best survive rational scrutiny in the community of inquirers. I like to think I've done a pretty good job so far.Kantian Naturalist
December 20, 2012
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@128 bornagain77 I believe: Each of us lives and dies many times; reincarnation. Earth is a place where we learn and grow. We have to learn how to handle our faculties; reason, feelings etc. We are wholes and can by our very nature only temporarily go astray. We make mistakes but our very nature leads us towards unity with ourselves. So every human being is moving towards perfect awareness, although it’s a bumpy road. At the end of the road there is enlightenment for each of us. Willing or not, at the end we all will reach the state of being in perfect harmony and understanding of ourselves.Box
December 20, 2012
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"I did not scoff at the cross." Yet,, “Are you saying that God is powerless to arrange that without having a son and then allowing him to be sacrificed? Sounds like a pretty limited God to me.” Seems like you are scoffing to me. Dang seems to me that you are proclaiming yourself to be wiser than God. But hey what does such a disagreement between the inner knowing of a couple of perfect beings really matter huh BD?bornagain77
December 20, 2012
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BA:
BD scoffs at the cross
I did not scoff at the cross. I asked a legitimate question: Given Stephen's assertions that 1) "God made us for himself, which means that we can find happiness only in Him", and 2) that the decision to "coexist" with God is a choice made by each human being ("Part of that image [the soul] consists in the ability to make free choices and, ultimately, to decide with whom we would prefer to co-exist for all eternity."), why does Stephen say, "Without Jesus’ sacrifice, we would not have had the opportunity to co-exist with God at all."? In other words, what is it that makes it impossible for God to simply allow those who choose to coexist with God for all eternity to do so? What limitation in Him exists that He needed to sacrifice His son to make this possible?Bruce David
December 20, 2012
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The soul in hell cannot change her mind.
The soul on earth cannot change her mind, if you're a Calvinist. My point being, what difference does the location of the soul make? When God casts someone into hell he removes their free will? He removes their ability to repent? He doesn't extend his grace towards them? Heck, he can do that while they are still on earth. I'd call that being in hell.Mung
December 20, 2012
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“the universe has a cause” as if it were perfectly legitimate to treat the universe itself as a kind of thing. But things, insofar as we have any cognitive grip on them at all, are all intra-cosmic entities. So here, when it comes to either asserting or denying that the universe has a cause (whatever that cause is!) we have what Wittgenstein would call “language gone on holiday”.
The problem with this analysis is in treating the argument as if it is about "the universe" having a cause. The universe did not always exist. At the first moment of it's existence in what sense was it "the universe"? It only became the universe later, from our perspective. So yes, language gone on holiday indeed. :) The argument is about the coming into existence of prior non-existent entities. A contingent entity demands a cause.Mung
December 20, 2012
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BD scoffs at the cross: "Are you saying that God is powerless to arrange that without having a son and then allowing him to be sacrificed? Sounds like a pretty limited God to me." Seems I remember other people scoffing at the cross: Matthew 27:40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross." Yet,, Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? What the sinner who has lost all self control to sin readily understands, but the sinner, who does not think he is ‘really’ a sinner, but who is under the delusion that he is controlling his sin does not readily understand, is that Jesus Christ had the full power and authority of heaven to relieve Himself of the horrid torment of the cross but instead chose, because of His love for us, to endure it, in its entirety, willingly, so that he might completely overcome sin, hell and death, in their entirety, for our behalf so that we may be reunited with him. Love is the only proper response on our part. Music: Natalie Grant - Alive (Resurrection music video) http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=KPYWPGNX footnote: Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 20, 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html Shroud of Turin - Carbon 14 test proves to be false - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxDdx6vxthE Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review – Robert Villarreal – Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 Shroud Of Turin - Photographic Negative - 3D Hologram - The Lamb - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/ Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfgbornagain77
December 20, 2012
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Stephen:
As we approach death, however, our character solidifies, and after death it is no longer pliable. It is, at that point, totally irreversible. We are what we have made ourselves. For better or worse, our journey is complete. For angels, this process occurs in a split second; for humans, it takes a lifetime. At the end, God simply ratifies the sum total of all our choices. It is we who are doing the driving. Hundreds of times a day we find ways to say, “I want you God” or “I don’t what you God. Finally, God says, “OK, I get it.”
I was wondering how you would try to wriggle out of that one. Pretty lame, actually. First, it is far from inevitable that our character "solidifies" as we approach death. Many people make major changes in their outlook at an advanced age, particularly when triggered by a major change in circumstances or knowledge (Antony Flew comes to mind), and what greater change can you imagine than dying and going into the afterlife? Many people "mellow out"---become much less driven and more sensitive and kind---when they reach advanced age. Sometimes the mere fact of impending death, whether consciously realized or not, can trigger a major change in character. I personally witnessed this when the ex husband of a woman I know called her two weeks before his death from a heart attack wishing to reconcile after years of animosity. She reported to me that his attitude had "completely changed", and for the first time he was actually pleasant to talk to. And what about people who die in their teens or their twenties, long before their character has solidified due to advanced age? Do they also suddenly become "no longer pliable" with an "irreversible" character? This assertion is so obviously a rationalization that you or someone made up in order to somehow avoid the obvious conclusion that a God who would create a Hell ain't very loving. Second, the attempt fails in any case. The God you portray is not a loving God. A loving God would never give up on a soul, would never say, "OK, I get it." and then withdraw forever. A loving God would be there forever, with open arms (metaphorically speaking), making it known that whenever the prodigal soul wishes to return He will welcome and embrace her. That's what love does; that's what love is!
Without Jesus’ sacrifice, we would not have had the opportunity to co-exist with God at all.
Why not? Are you saying that God is powerless to arrange that without having a son and then allowing him to be sacrificed? Sounds like a pretty limited God to me.Bruce David
December 20, 2012
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StephenB @ 99: I think we have a pretty good handle on what "cause" and "effect" mean when applied to events within the universe, but I worry that we don't really know what those terms mean when applied to the universe as a whole. We say "the universe has a cause" as if it were perfectly legitimate to treat the universe itself as a kind of thing. But things, insofar as we have any cognitive grip on them at all, are all intra-cosmic entities. So here, when it comes to either asserting or denying that the universe has a cause (whatever that cause is!) we have what Wittgenstein would call "language gone on holiday". Allanius @ 100:
How could someone who called himself a Transcendental Idealist also be a naturalist of the second type? Kant did not agree with Hume that skepticism is king and God should be excluded from science. On the contrary; he tried to sneak God back into science through the “transcendentals.” Kant was a synthetic philosopher and follower of Aristotle. The whole point of synthetic philosopy is that it is possible to discern transcendent qualities in immanent being. Without this idea, the constructive philosophy makes no sense whatsoever, and the Transcendental Aesthetic is an absurdity. Coleridge and Wordsworth clearly got this. So did Hegel. It’s a mystery why more recent commentators think that Kant the Transcendentalist was an enemy to transcendent being.
Firstly, I am not a transcendental idealist; that is not part of what I accept from Kant's system. But I disagree quite strongly with your interpretation of what Kant did say. On my reading, he meant what he said when he said "I found it necessary to restrict knowledge to make room for faith" (Critique of Pure Reason, 2nd ed. Intro). With regards to knowledge, Kant agrees with Hume: all that can be known is restricted to what can be experienced. Where Kant differs from Hume, relevant to this issue here, is that Kant thinks that (i) certain concepts have an a priori origin -- these being the "categories of the understanding" and (ii) the categories are deployed by Reason to construct "the Ideas of pure reason": the idea of God, the idea of immortality, and the idea of free will. Kant argues that these three ideas (and Kant uses "ideas" as a deliberate nod to Plato, in contrast with Descartes and Locke, who used "idea" to refer to any mental entity at all) have three important features: (1) they must be assumed in order for our rational interest in morality to be reconciled with our creaturely interest in happiness; (2) they cannot be proved or disproved by logic or by experience; (3) they constitute the rational core of religion. I can somewhat see where you're coming from here, but the details really depend on how one reads the Critique of the Power of Judgment (God as the author of nature) in relation to the first two Critiques. Still, it should be stressed that Coleridge and Wordsworth were getting more Hegel than Kant. And Hegel is markedly different from Kant on several major points, including the following: Kant clearly did not think that we could have knowledge of the absolute, and Hegel did. So while Kant was no enemy to the concept of a transcendent being, he vehemently denied that we could have any knowledge of such a being. With respect to what we could know, Kant mostly sided with Hume. I say 'mostly' because of course Kant rejects "Hume's fork" and accepts synthetic a priori concepts and judgments. But with regards to knowledge, this does nothing to save theology from Hume's critique: all it does is salvage mathematics and the foundations of science. I'm not even sure that Hume's criticisms of religion (say, in Dialogues on Natural Religion or the chapters on miracles and on design in the Enquiry are all that different from Kant's criticisms in the Transcendental Dialectic. While we're on the topic of Hume and Kant, here's a nice article I thought highly of: "Kant, Hume, Darwin, and Design: Why Intelligent Design Wasn't Science Before Darwin and Still Isn't" by Jonathan Loesberg (The Philosophical Forum Volume 38, Issue 2, pages 95–123, Summer 2007). (It's available here but that might be behind a paywall for most of you.)Kantian Naturalist
December 19, 2012
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So, given that, is there any reason why a soul in Hell could not change her mind at some point and choose to coexist with God after all? And if she did, would God not welcome her back? If not, why not, given His perfect love?
The soul in hell cannot change her mind. On this side of the grave, our character is changeable because we have time to work with and the grace of God to help us. In that context, we are working within a very dynamic spiritual environment. We are either growing more loving and getting closer to God or less loving and more distant from God. No one stays the same. As the years pass, it becomes increasingly difficult to reverse course because the older and more ingrained a habit becomes, the harder it is to break. Still, it can be done because the grace of God is available even up to the last moment. As we approach death, however, our character solidifies, and after death it is no longer pliable. It is, at that point, totally irreversible. We are what we have made ourselves. For better or worse, our journey is complete. For angels, this process occurs in a split second; for humans, it takes a lifetime. At the end, God simply ratifies the sum total of all our choices. It is we who are doing the driving. Hundreds of times a day we find ways to say, “I want you God” or “I don’t what you God. Finally, God says, “OK, I get it.”
And if our being saved is simply a question of our choosing to coexist with God “in this life or the next”, wherein lies the necessity for Jesus’ sacrifice?
Without Jesus' sacrifice, we would not have had the opportunity to co-exist with God at all. Even with his sacrifice, we must choose to appropriate it and make the right choices.StephenB
December 19, 2012
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Stephen:
Although God made us for himself, which means that we can find happiness only in Him, there are many who would prefer not to co-exist with Him, either in this life or the next. Where, then, are these people supposed to reside. Having rejected Heaven, God, the community of saints, what else is left for them except their place of choice, which is Hell. Does God actively torture them at that awful place (or state of existence)? No. They experience passive torture as a natural byproduct of being separated from God. To separate ourselves from the natural environment for which we were made is to experience torture. God does not get revenge, “pour it on,” or ramp up the pain, He simply withdraws Himself completely and His total absence makes it Hell.
So, given that, is there any reason why a soul in Hell could not change her mind at some point and choose to coexist with God after all? And if she did, would God not welcome her back? If not, why not, given His perfect love? And if our being saved is simply a question of our choosing to coexist with God "in this life or the next", wherein lies the necessity for Jesus' sacrifice?Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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CentralScrutinzer:
Bruce David: My view is that we perfect beings (the image and likeness of God) incarnate on Earth for the purpose of forgetting… Why was this necessary?
You didn't include the rest of the sentence. In full it reads: "My view is that we perfect beings (the image and likeness of God) incarnate on Earth for the purpose of forgetting and then slowly over many lifetimes remembering Who We Really Are." Here is a very condensed version of the explanation given by God in Conversations with God, Book I, which I consider to be direct revelation: God, in His transcendent state, knows He is magnificent, but He cannot experience this because in order to experience something, one has to have the experience of NOT that something also. Warmth, without the experience of cold, disappears. Up, without the experience of down, disappears, as astronauts in space discovered. And in God's transcendent state, there is no opposite to His magnificence, so although He knew it, He could not experience it. But He desired to have that experience, so God created all of us out of Himself, in His image and likeness. We are each an individualized copy of Him, complete with His magnificence (His love, His creativity, His joy, His wisdom, His knowledge). The One who looks out of our eyes is Him. But in order for us to experience our magnificence (and for God to experience His own through us, which are Him), it was necessary for us to experience NOT magnificence, ie limitation, in all its forms. To do this, we incarnate on Earth, forgetting Who We Really Are. However, as we incarnate in many lifetimes, our remembrance slowly returns to us, and as it does, we experience our magnificence in contrast to the experiences of limitation that we have had due to our forgetting. And through us, God experiences His magnificence. Among the manifestations of limitation that we experience is what is commonly labelled as evil, and which is the lack or absence of love. (Actually, love can never be absent, since it is part of every human being's essential nature, but it can be masked to the extent that we act contrary to its imperative.) But you see, what we call evil is necessary for the purpose of life on Earth to be fulfilled. Thus, in the ultimate sense, in God's eyes, there is no evil---what we call evil is actually part of the Plan. I have attempted to condense into a few paragraphs what takes some twenty pages to explain in Conversations with God. If you're interested, I strongly recommend reading that book. It is quite amazing.Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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Box, Well, to try to make some headway into it, as clumsy as it may be, I would say first off, that by 'autonomy' you mean a different thing than what Keller means, in that he means going our own rebellious way instead of trying to follow God's perfect way for us, and that you mean, in 'autonomous' something more along the line of not being a puppet of God but being a true friend. But 'freely choosing' to go God's perfect way is anything but being a puppet and giving up autonomy. Indeed many, many, people, far, far, better qualified than I, can testify that it takes much self discipline over 'automatic' selfish desires to live a selfless life for God. Mother Teresa's life story comes to mind. Whereas a person who lives for selfish ends usually finds himself being the 'puppet' of some destructive addiction. Thus I would say that you have a overall wrong perspective of what it means to 'serve' God: Verse and music: John 8:34-36 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.' Creed - My Own Prison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBBqjGd3fHQbornagain77
December 19, 2012
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@ bornagain77 – post 123
bornagain77 : I’m really having trouble getting your point. I believe the opposite of what Keller is saying . Keller says something like ‘people can either choose to serve God or choose for autonomy and choosing autonomy will make one ultimately end up in hell’. Correct me if I’m wrong. I believe that God doesn’t plan for us to sing in devote admiration for Him forever. I think we are on earth to increase awareness of ourselves and others, and unlike what Keller proposes, increase our personal autonomy. Like I said I can imagine that in time He would like some worthy company.
Box
December 19, 2012
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"There is nothing humble about your opinions, Bornagain" Really funny coming from the man who refuses to let anything contradict his 'inner knowing' :)bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Box
I would argue that it is impossible to love God thinking that He is collaborating with the practice of torturing people for eternity. e-t-e-r-n-i-t-y … So not 10 years of torture, not 1000 years, not 1000.000 years. No the urge to punish again and again is impossible to satisfy. Why is destruction of the soul not enough and get it over with? And who can love such an image of God?
Unlike the body, which is made up of physical parts, the soul, which is the spiritual part of our nature, cannot die. To be made in God’s image is to live forever. Part of that image consists in the ability to make free choices and, ultimately, to decide with whom we would prefer to co-exist for all eternity. Although God made us for himself, which means that we can find happiness only in Him, there are many who would prefer not to co-exist with Him, either in this life or the next. Where, then, are these people supposed to reside. Having rejected Heaven, God, the community of saints, what else is left for them except their place of choice, which is Hell. Does God actively torture them at that awful place (or state of existence)? No. They experience passive torture as a natural byproduct of being separated from God. To separate ourselves from the natural environment for which we were made is to experience torture. God does not get revenge, “pour it on,” or ramp up the pain, He simply withdraws Himself completely and His total absence makes it Hell.StephenB
December 19, 2012
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BA:
Of course BD, one thing I’ve learned about you is that what reality is telling us can never trump what you imagine your ‘inner knowing’ is telling you. As far as can tell, you’ve forever sealed yourself off from such trivial things as reality ever informing you. ,,,i.e. Sandy Hook elementary evil??? No Way!!! Ba Da Boom, Ba Da Bing, just imagine the Sandy Hook tragedy away with BD’s magic ‘evil is a illusion’ sophistry.,,, Pure garbage thinking IMHO!
There is nothing humble about your opinions, Bornagain.Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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Box you state: "So Keller argues that going to hell is by free choice, despite fair warnings. I believe quite the opposite. I think we are on this earth to increase awareness of ourselves and others, to learn from mistakes and so increase autonomy. God doesn’t want us to be His servants forever. In time He would like some real company." I'm really having trouble getting your point. Are you trying to claim that we give up free will if hell is real??? And that God would not have 'real' company??? Surely you don;t mean that?? whatever you are trying to say, I can tell you that God is very big on autonomy (free will) as far as reality itself can tell us: notes on free will: In the following video, at the 37:00 minute mark, Anton Zeilinger, a leading researcher in quantum teleportation with many breakthroughs under his belt, humorously reflects on just how deeply determinism has been undermined by quantum mechanics by saying such a deep lack of determinism may provide some of us a loop hole when they meet God on judgment day. Prof Anton Zeilinger speaks on quantum physics. at UCT - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZPWW5NOrw Personally, I feel that such a deep undermining of determinism by quantum mechanics, far from providing a 'loop hole' on judgement day, actually restores free will to its rightful place in the grand scheme of things, thus making God's final judgments on men's souls all the more fully binding since man truly is a 'free moral agent' as Theism has always maintained. And to solidify this theistic claim for how reality is constructed, the following study came along a few months after I had seen Dr. Zeilinger’s video: Can quantum theory be improved? - July 23, 2012 Excerpt: Being correct 50% of the time when calling heads or tails on a coin toss won’t impress anyone. So when quantum theory predicts that an entangled particle will reach one of two detectors with just a 50% probability, many physicists have naturally sought better predictions. The predictive power of quantum theory is, in this case, equal to a random guess. Building on nearly a century of investigative work on this topic, a team of physicists has recently performed an experiment whose results show that, despite its imperfections, quantum theory still seems to be the optimal way to predict measurement outcomes., However, in the new paper, the physicists have experimentally demonstrated that there cannot exist any alternative theory that increases the predictive probability of quantum theory by more than 0.165, with the only assumption being that measurement (*conscious observation) parameters can be chosen independently (free choice, free will, assumption) of the other parameters of the theory.,,, ,, the experimental results provide the tightest constraints yet on alternatives to quantum theory. The findings imply that quantum theory is close to optimal in terms of its predictive power, even when the predictions are completely random. http://phys.org/news/2012-07-quantum-theory.html So just as I had suspected after watching Dr. Zeilinger’s video, it is found that a required assumption of ‘free will’ in quantum mechanics is what necessarily drives the completely random (non-deterministic) aspect of quantum mechanics. Moreover, it was shown in the paper that one cannot ever improve the predictive power of quantum mechanics by ever removing free will as a starting assumption in Quantum Mechanics! Henry Stapp on the Conscious Choice and the Non-Local Quantum Entangled Effects - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJN01s1gOqA of note: What does the term "measurement" mean in quantum mechanics? "Measurement" or "observation" in a quantum mechanics context are really just other ways of saying that the observer is interacting with the quantum system and measuring the result in toto. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=597846 Needless to say, finding ‘free will conscious observation’ to be ‘built into’ our best description of foundational reality, quantum mechanics, as a starting assumption, 'free will observation' which is indeed the driving aspect of randomness in quantum mechanics, is VERY antithetical to the entire materialistic philosophy which demands that a 'non-telological randomness' be the driving force of creativity in Darwinian evolution! Also of interest: Scientific Evidence That Mind Effects Matter – Random Number Generators – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4198007 I once asked a evolutionist, after showing him the preceding experiments, “Since you ultimately believe that the ‘god of random chance’ produced everything we see around us, what in the world is my mind doing pushing your god around?” Of note: since our free will choices figure so prominently in how reality is actually found to be constructed in our understanding of quantum mechanics, I think a Christian perspective on just how important our choices are in this temporal life, in regards to our eternal destiny, is very fitting: Is God Good? (Free will and the problem of evil) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfd_1UAjeIA Ravi Zacharias - How To Measure Your Choices - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Op_S5syhKI You must measure your choices by the measure of 1) eternity 2) morality 3) accountability 4) charitybornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Perhaps this song is more fitting than the Heather Williams song for reflecting the sentiment of post 115: "Bless The Broken Road" - Rascal Flatts Official Music Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkWGwY5nq7Abornagain77
December 19, 2012
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BD states: Just don’t imagine that you have a very convincing argument there. Of course BD, one thing I've learned about you is that what reality is telling us can never trump what you imagine your 'inner knowing' is telling you. As far as can tell, you've forever sealed yourself off from such trivial things as reality ever informing you. ,,,i.e. Sandy Hook elementary evil??? No Way!!! Ba Da Boom, Ba Da Bing, just imagine the Sandy Hook tragedy away with BD's magic 'evil is a illusion' sophistry.,,, Pure garbage thinking IMHO!bornagain77
December 19, 2012
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Re: bornagain77 & Phinehas I would summarize Keller’s idea like this: ‘People can either choose to serve God or choose for autonomy. Choosing the latter leads to psychological problems that come from being ego-centered and self-justifying. At a certain point there is no way back and hell opens its doors.’ So Keller argues that going to hell is by free choice, despite fair warnings. I believe quite the opposite. I think we are on this earth to increase awareness of ourselves and others, to learn from mistakes and so increase autonomy. God doesn’t want us to be His servants forever. In time He would like some real company.Box
December 19, 2012
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Bruce David: My view is that we perfect beings (the image and likeness of God) incarnate on Earth for the purpose of forgetting...
Why was this necessary?CentralScrutinizer
December 19, 2012
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BA: [What is your warrant for assuming that the the laws which govern this physical universe are at all relevant to the way that the realm to which we go after we die operates?]
Because the structure of reality is,,well,,, it is the structure of reality!...If you don’t mind, (and even if you do mind) I’ll stick to what the structure of reality, as revealed by modern physics, is telling me over what your ‘inner knowing’ is telling me!
Be my guest. Just don't imagine that you have a very convincing argument there.Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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Phinehas:
A) If God -> Revelation is possible -> Truth (writ large) is within reach B) If only flawed and limited beings -> ????? Someone who believes B making declarations about God’s nature seems a bit silly. But I take it you believe neither A nor B, which still leaves me curious as to where exactly you were standing when you chose to make a declaration about God and His nature.
Actually, I agree with A and not B. My view is that we perfect beings (the image and likeness of God) incarnate on Earth for the purpose of forgetting and then slowly over many lifetimes remembering Who We Really Are. In order for this to work, there must be access to our essential nature, which does know the truth, but the access must be neither too easy nor impossible. This is what I refer to as our "inner knowing" of which BA is so disdainful. As we experience many lifetimes, our ability to access our inner knowing becomes surer and surer, and it is this capacity that allows us to recognize valid revelation. To me, as best as I can determine, the Conversations with God series of books, by Neale Donald Walsch constitute the purest form of revelation with which I have yet come in contact. Another such source is the work of Ibn al 'Arabi, a great Sufi mystic and philosopher (called the "pole of knowledge" by the Sufis), but his work is much less accessible to me and I would guess to most modern English speaking people. So do I have perfect access to my own inner knowing at this stage of my evolution? No. But there are some things of which I am very, very sure, and one of them is that a perfectly loving being would never create a Hell.Bruce David
December 19, 2012
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