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The Squid and the Supernova: A Reply to Professor Egnor

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In February 1987, a supernova appeared in the Southern skies, and remained visible for several months. Giant squid, with their large, powerful eyes, must have seen it, too. But if you believe that the act of perception takes place at the object, as Professor Egnor argues in his perspicacious reply to my last post, then you will have to maintain that the squid’s perception of the stellar explosion took place at the location of the supernova itself: somewhere in the Large Magellanic Cloud, a galaxy about 168,000 light years from Earth. The problem is that the object itself ceased to exist nearly 200 millennia ago, long before the dawn of human history. Even if the squid that witnessed the explosion were capable of having perceptions which are located in intergalactic space, as Egnor contends, they are surely incapable of having perceptions which go back in time.

Before I continue, I would like to compliment Professor Egnor on his latest post, which is nothing less than a literary tour de force. I wish I could write even half as well. The author’s learning and depth of thought are abundantly evident. And although I believe he is wrong, he is at least nobly wrong, for he has succeeded in highlighting a genuine philosophical problem concerning perception: namely, the puzzle of how we can have reliable knowledge of the external world. (Egnor’s original article can be viewed here; see here for my reply.)

Briefly, Egnor contends that even if perception takes place at the location of the sensory organ (a view I defended in my previous post), and not in the subject’s brain, it is still cut off from objects located in the outside world; hence, it can afford us no sure knowledge of the outside world. Additionally, Aristotle’s insistence that perception involves the observer being made like the object she observes, and even possessing this object, only makes sense if the observer makes contact with the object. For these reasons, Egnor holds that his account of perception is the only one which is both true to the teaching of Aristotle and able to explain how we can have genuine knowledge of the external world (bold emphases mine – VJT):

The crux of Aristotle’s theory of perception is that the perceiver “is made like the object and has acquired its quality” (DA II 5)… One is made like an object and acquires its quality by encountering the object, not by watching a movie about the object…

If perception does not occur at the object — if it begins only at the sense organ or the brain — then there is no encounter between perceiver and perceived. If perception begins at the sense organ, and not at the object, then only the sensory stimulus, not the object, is perceived.

In the Aristotelian view, the perception of an object is the possession of its form. This includes its accidental forms as well as its substantial form. Location is an accidental form (Organon 1b25-2a4). Thus, in my interpretation, possession of an object entails possession of its location — perception of an object occurs at the location of the object.

There are deeper problems with the notion that perception occurs only at the sense organs and brain. Let us imagine that the Cartesian theater is real and perception occurs only in sense organs and the brain. In this scenario, we only have direct knowledge of our perceptions themselves; we never have direct knowledge of the objects perceived. And in this Cartesian theater, there can be no reliable knowledge of the external world whatsoever, because any attempt at confirmation of knowledge by correlating internal perception with external reality is rendered moot by my inability to perceive the outside world directly. We are trapped inside the theater, and we can’t get out. The Cartesian theater leaves us practically and even theoretically unable to know reality…

And locating perception in the senses, or in the brain and the senses, doesn’t solve the problem, it merely makes the Cartesian theater a little more spacious. Either your knowledge of the world is limited by your skull or it’s limited by your skin. Either way, you’re trapped in solipsism.

Although I made it quite clear in my original post that I reject the notion of a “theater in the brain” where a homunculus views the sensory data which my brain receives, I think it is fair to say that Professor Egnor has exposed a problem with the account I put forward: namely, that it fails to adequately explain how we manage to encounter objects, when we perceive them.

Responding to my objection that the notion of perception occurring at a distance from the observer was simply too bizarre to be true, Professor Egnor proceeds to turn the tables, by pointing out that the Newtonian notion of action at a distance (which scientists came to accept in the seventeenth century) is equally bizarre:

Perception at a distance is no more inconceivable than action at a distance. The notion that a perception of the moon occurs at the moon is “bizarre” (Torley’s word) only if one presumes that perception is constrained by distance and local conditions — perhaps perception would get tired if it had to go to the moon or it wouldn’t be able to go because it’s too cold there. Yet surely the view that the perception of a rose held up to my eye was located at the rose wouldn’t be deemed nearly as bizarre. At what distance does perception of an object at the object become inconceivable?

It is quite true that early theories of gravity and electromagnetism were forced to appeal to the outlandish notion of action at a distance, in order to describe how an object responds to the influence of distant objects. Newton himself had no idea how it could happen, but he famously refused to speculate, writing: “I have not as yet been able to discover the reason for these properties of gravity from phenomena, and I do not feign hypotheses.” Modern physics, however, has dispensed with the need for such a counterintuitive notion, thanks to the development of the concept of a field, which mediates interactions between objects across empty space.

What’s wrong with perception – and action – occurring at a distance from the subject?

In my reply to Egnor’s original article, I did indeed object that the notion of perception taking place at a distance from the observer was a bizarre one; but in addition to that, I put forward a philosophical argument, designed to show that the notion was not only bizarre, but nonsensical. In a nutshell, my argument was that perception is a bodily event, and that an event involving my body cannot take place at a point which is separate from my body. An event involving my body may occur inside my body, or at the surface of my body, but never separately from it. Thus it simply makes no sense to assert that I am here, at point X, but that my perceptions – or for that matter, my actions – are located at an external point Y.

Think of it this way. Suppose that an action or a perception could be spatially divorced from its subject. How could one demonstrate that the action or perception in question – call it A – should be attributed to this subject (Tom), rather than that subject (Mary), who happens to be standing nearby? How would one resolve the matter, if a dispute were to arise as to whose action (or perception) it was?

Again, if we suppose that an action or a perception is capable of being spatially divorced from its subject, then why couldn’t it be temporally divorced as well? Why couldn’t my actions and my perceptions continue, long after I am dead? For that matter, why couldn’t they have taken place before I was even conceived? Professor Egnor’s account of action and perception fails to exclude either of these absurd scenarios.

To my mind, the foregoing objections are absolutely fatal to any philosophical theory which locates the act of perception outside the observer, and at the object itself, even when it is located at some distance from the observer.

Is Professor Egnor’s argument conclusive?

I am a firm believer in the view that when formulating an argument, it is vital to put it forward in the form of a syllogism, so that its validity can be easily assessed. In the absence of a syllogism, the reader is liable to be convinced by the rhetorical force of the argument, rather than its logical force. Accordingly, I have endeavored to reconstruct Professor Egnor’s core argument in logical form, stripping it down to its bare bones:

1. If I am to have direct knowledge of an object when I perceive it, then my perceptions of that object must encounter the object itself – and not an impression, simulation or representation of it.

2. In order for my perceptions to encounter an object, my perceptions must come into immediate contact with it.

3. Some objects which I perceive are spatially distant from my body.

4. Hence, if I am to have direct knowledge of these distant objects when I perceive them, then my perceptions of these objects must (somehow) come into immediate contact with them.

5. But my body does not come into immediate contact with these distant objects, when I perceive them.

6. Hence my perceptions of distant objects cannot be located on or inside my body, but must be located outside my body, at the objects themselves.

At first sight, the argument appears unexceptionable, when couched in this form. However, some of the key terms used in the argument turn out to be rather vague and ill-defined. For instance: I know perfectly well what it means for me to encounter an object, but what does it mean for my perceptions to encounter an object (as stated in premises 1 and 2)? That strikes me as an odd way of talking.

One possible remedy for this problem would be to replace “my perceptions” with “I” in the first two premises. But if we simply say that perception simply requires me to encounter (and come into contact with) the objects I perceive, then we run into trouble in premise 3, which states the rather obvious fact that I don’t come into contact with all of the objects I perceive.

A critic of Egnor’s argument might be inclined to reject premise 2. After all, if Professor Egnor is willing to entertain the thought that the direct perception of an object can be spatially distant from the perceiving subject, then why can’t a direct perception of an object be spatially distant from the perceiving object, as well? If the former is conceivable, then why not the latter?

Or perhaps we should reject premise 1, instead. Why should it be the case that my direct perceptions of an object have to encounter the object? Surely it is I who encounter the object, via my perceptions of it.

At this point, I am reminded of Fred Dretske’s aphorism, “One man’s modus ponens is another man’s modus tollens.”

How the Krakatoa eruption undercuts the corpuscular theory of perception

However, in this Christmas season, I do not wish to be accused of being uncharitable in my reading of Professor Egnor’s argument. So I’d like to use another analogy, in order to bring out the point which Egnor wants to make. Most readers will be familiar with the volcanic eruption which took place in Indonesia in 1883, destroying most of the island of Krakatoa as well as its surrounding archipelago.

Now, suppose that I had lived about 100 kilometers from the island, at the time of the eruption. In that case, it would have been too far away for me to have actually seen the island exploding, with my own eyes. However, I would certainly have heard a loud noise – the sound of the explosion was heard even 3,000 miles away, in Alice Springs, Australia – and in addition to that, I would have been inundated with particles of volcanic ash from the eruption. Let’s put aside my perception of the sound of the explosion. The question I’d like to focus on is: does my being inundated with particles of volcanic ash count as a perception of the explosion?

The reason why I am posing this question is that it has bearing on what I’ll call the corpuscular theory of perception, which was defended by Cartesians and by atomists in the seventeenth century, and which is still upheld by modern philosophers. On this account, what happens when I perceive a distant body, such as the supernova which was seen to explode in 1987, is that particles (or corpuscles) travel from that object to my eye – rather like the way in which particles of volcanic ash traveled from the Krakatoa explosion to people living in surrounding areas. In the 21st century, we refer to these “particles” as photons of light, but the basic idea is the same as it was in the seventeenth century.

Getting back to Krakatoa: if I had been inundated with particles of ash from the Krakatoa eruption back in 1883, what could I have concluded from that fact? Nothing much, really. All that I could have said was that something had caused those particles to reach me, but I would have had absolutely no idea what it was. My being rained on with particles of ash could hardly qualify as a perception of the eruption itself: being situated at some distance from the eruption, I would have been unable to conclude that an eruption had even occurred. All I could have concluded was: “Something big happened.”

The above example, I believe, serves to illustrate the point Professor Egnor is making, in his critique of theories of perception which locate the act of perception away from the object itself, and either at or in the body of the observer. For what Egnor is arguing is that if these theories are correct, then I am in a similar quandary when I perceive distant objects: all I can say is that “something I know not what” is causing my perceptions. There is no real encounter between the observer and the observed.

An irenic proposal: it is objects which reach out to us, not we to them

At this point, I’d like to make an irenic proposal to Professor Egnor. He has indeed highlighted a genuine philosophical problem when he argues that any veridical perception of an object requires an encounter between the perceiver and the object itself, and he is also correct in saying that corpuscular theories of perception fail to do justice to this encounter. What I’d like to suggest is that instead of supposing (as Egnor does) that my act of perception of a distant object takes place at the distant object itself, which I somehow “reach out to” when I perceive its form, wouldn’t it be more sensible to suppose that it is the object which reaches out to me, when I perceive it?

In other words, what I am saying is that when I perceive a distant star by means of photons emitted from that star impinging on my eye, something is happening which is very different in character from my getting rained on by particles of volcanic ash from the Krakatoa eruption. The vital difference is that the particles of ash failed to manifest the character of the object itself to me: unless I had been a trained geologist, I would have been in no position to know that they came from a volcano, rather than (say) a meteorite. When I perceive a star, on the other hand, photons emitted by that star (many years ago) enter my eye and modify the organ itself, in a way which literally gives me a picture of their source. Looking at the star, I can determine that it is located in a certain region of the sky, that it is highly luminous, and that it is of a certain color. Looking at it through a telescope, I can further determine that it is roughly round in shape. And if the star in question is sufficiently close to Earth, I can even directly calculate its distance, using the method of parallax, and I can also compute its size.

What makes my perceptions both genuine and reliable in this case is that the star, in its act of emitting photons, does something much more than merely projecting particles: it also projects its own powers – in this case, the power to illuminate observers, in a particular way. And when I am affected by the star’s powers, I am thereby informed (literally, “in-formed”) in a manner which enables me to have a veridical perception of the star itself, and to arrive at a genuine knowledge of what it is.

We can now make sense of Aristotle’s statement that in the act of perception, the observer “is made like the object and has acquired its quality” (De Anima II 5), as well as his claim that the perception of an objection entails having a possession of its form. For when I perceive a distant star, I do indeed receive its form, by virtue of my eye’s being affected by the normal exercise of its powers: the star is the kind of object which has a tendency to emit light of a certain wavelength, which we perceive as “red.” Because the star is exercising its normal, regular powers when it affects me in this way, I am able to recognize that one of its characteristics is to appear red, and that another of its characteristics is to shine. I also perceive its position in the sky, and because “the stars in their courses” appear to follow a regular path in the night sky, I know that the star I perceive is not a phosphorescent flash caused by a random disturbance of my optic nerve, but an object, with a well-defined location, shape, color and size.

But, it will be asked, how can a distant object project its powers to an observer? The notion seems a little mysterious. I would suggest that the modern scientific concept of a field (which I mentioned above) may go some way towards dispelling this mystery. Briefly, the idea is that every material object is surrounded by a field of some sort – gravitational, electromagnetic, strong, weak, or what have you. We can never divorce an object from its surrounding field: the two go together like hand and glove. What I am saying is that the field serves to project the object itself: when the object’s field interacts with another body (such as the body of an observer), that body is then subjected to (and affected by) the powers of the object. The effect is not instantaneous; it takes a certain interval of time. But that is unimportant. What matters is that to perceive an object is to fall under its powers, in some way, and to thereby be informed by it, when one’s sensory organs are altered by the normal exercise of those powers.

The key difference between Egnor’s account of perception and mine, then, is that in his account, it is we who reach out to the object, when we perceive it; whereas on my account, it is the object which reaches out to us. And in the case of an exploding star, the object is capable of reaching out to us even after it has ceased to exist, because the photons it projects continue traveling in space, long after it is gone. Objects can thus exercise their powers in remote locations, even when they are no more.

One might ask: is this a case of the star’s actions being temporally divorced from the star itself – a notion which I rejected as absurd in my philosophical argument against the possibility of actions or perceptions being either spatially or temporally divorced from their subject? There is indeed a temporal delay between the action and its effect – just as there would be if a fiend were to plot a murder by enclosing a bomb inside his last will and testament, which was designed to detonate only when it was opened, some time after his death. But even in this case, the dastardly deed of enclosing the bomb inside the will is performed during the lifetime of the fiend – and similarly, the action of emitting light is performed during the lifetime of the star, even its effects are only felt by us much later. Thus there is no “temporal divorce” between the entity and its actions, but only between the actions and their effects.

It seems to me that the account of perception which I am defending here is a lot less odd, metaphysically speaking, than the account put forward by Professor Egnor. It also appears to accord better with common sense. But at this point, I shall lay down my pen, and let my readers judge the matter for themselves. I am also happy to let Professor Egnor have the last word in this exchange, and I would like to wish him a merry Christmas.

What do readers think?

UPDATE: Over at ENV, Professor Egnor has written a reply to my post, on which I have briefly commented below (see here).

Comments
Well I am not sure I understand some of the terminology used and I could be missing some of the finer points. But I think the question largely hinges on whether human consciousness and thought are reducible to material causes in the brain. There are many good reasons for believing that that is not the case. - Intentionality - The qualitative nature of subjective thought vs the quantitative nature of material events in the brain. - The information problem - That we experience a continuous flow of coherent, related and often complex thoughts. - Immutability of self - That we always maintain a sense of self, an identity no matter how the brain changes throughout growth and when subjected to damage. There are others. If thought and consciousness are not reducible to material causes in the brain and if they are in fact immaterial, then what people generally mean by perception, i.e. that which we become aware of through the physical senses, is only half the story. In this case, the mind--an immaterial mind--is required to complete the perception. But it makes no sense to say that an immaterial mind is located anywhere in particular. And perhaps it is not subject to space and time constraints at all. Many lines of evidence from near death experiences suggest that it may not be. Even the idea of perception occurring at the senses doesn't make much sense if we are to believe the many cases of out of body experiences where an unconscious person is witnessing their own resuscitation from above. So the immaterial mind could be anywhere and everywhere. The perception that it is localized in the brain results from its being tethered, somehow, to a distinct brain when the brain is intact. If there is free will, then the first step in the process of perception would be an act of will which would invoke a shift in attention of the mind and then the senses to some particular entity in the visual plane for example. Notice that you can stare at something but not perceive it. You only perceive it once you exercise a consecration of will. If that is the case, then the chain of perceptual causation, it seems to me, given one's belief in an immaterial mind and free will, would be: 1) an act of will to direct one's mind to a particular object, 2) the contact of energy to a sense organ, 3) the routing of the signal to the visual cortex by the brain and within the brain, 4) the immaterial aspect of perception--the processing--of the signal by the mind to abstract meaning from the concrete attributes (forms and colors) of the visual system. So in this case, if one's will, like the immaterial mind, is unbounded by the physical brain, I have no problem believing that it is possible that perception could begin to occur outside the physical body.nkendall
December 10, 2015
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Dr. Torley, you say BA has refused to apologize. Perhaps you wrote that before you saw 64.Barry Arrington
December 10, 2015
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Hi bornagain, Your refusal to apologize for suggesting that I am "leaning towards atheism and contemplating giving up Christian Theism altogether" is baffling, given my express statement that I am a Catholic. The reason why I quoted "several atheistic physicists (Bell, Leggett, Feynman, Gellmann) in relation to consciousness and quantum mechanics" was NOT, as you claimed, "in order to try to defeat a Theistic view of quantum mechanics," but rather, in order to show that you had failed to prove that your view of quantum mechanics (which is theistic, but which is by no means the only theistic view) was the correct one. You have been arguing that quantum mechanics defeats materialism. My answer is: "No, it doesn't - at least, not yet." I note, for the record, that you have failed to answer the two simple points I made in comment #60. I also note that you have failed to address the arguments in my OP, criticizing Professor Egnor's view of perception. (Professor Egnor, to his credit, has behaved like a perfect gentleman throughout our exchange of views.) When you disagree with an argument, you should do it like this: "I think that premise X is wrong, because ......" Which premises in my argument do you reject? You appear to believe that perception is not a material process. In that case, you disagree with Professor Egnor, who wrote in his original ENV post: "Perception is a wholly material thing — it does have location." You insist that I reply to your posts #52-56. Are you kidding me? I just counted around 44 video links on those posts. If you think I am going to sit down and view all 44 of your videos, think again. I work seven days a week, to feed my family. Right now, where I am, it's 3:39 a.m. (Yes, that's right.) You undermine your own credibility by posting so many links. It's tantamount to information overload. If I were you, I would pick the top three links which I thought supported my case, and use those to make my argument. That would be a good strategy. Three links are enough. Any more than that is overload. I will however comment briefly on your links in comment #52. Your first link from arstechnica, "Quantum state may be a real thing" (July 2, 2014), says nothing about materialism. Instead, it criticizes realism. I don't see how that boosts the case for theism, or against materialism. Not relevant. The second link, an article by Dr. Bruce Gordon, is at least relevant. The critical premise in his argument is premise P3: "Neither nonlocal quantum correlations nor (in light of nonlocalizability) the identity of the fundamental constituents of material reality can be explained or characterized if the explanatory constraints of materialism are preserved." This in turn rests on his earlier statement: "The physical world, therefore, is fundamentally nonlocal and permeated with instantaneous connections and correlations. Nonlocalizability is a related phenomenon in relativistic quantum mechanics and quantum field theory in which it is impossible to isolate an unobserved quantum object, such as an electron, in a bounded region of space." This in turn is justified by the following assertion: "Every time a quantum object or system interacts with another quantum object or system, their existence becomes 'entangled' in such a way that what happens to one of them instantaneously affects the other no matter how far apart they have separated." (Dr. Gordon adds that "no hidden (empirically undetectable) variables can be added to the description of quantum systems exhibiting nonlocal behavior which would explain these instantaneous correlations on the basis of local considerations." All this shows is that at the quantum level, individual particles in an entangled system don't have a well-defined location. No instantaneous information transfer needs to take place. The experiments don't undermine materialism; all they show is that a particle of matter isn't always located at some point X. Even if the results observed were taken to refute materialism, they fail to resolve the paradox I raised at the beginning of my OP, about the squid and the supernova. If the two entities were somehow quantum-entangled, then I could see the relevance. But they aren't: not even you would say that the squid is entangled with an exploding object in the Large Magellanic Cloud, 160,000 light years away, which it has never previously had contact with. Relevance to my argument: zero. Your next link is a quote from Eugene Wigner. But if you check the article I cited in comment #25 above ( http://arxiv.org/pdf/1009.2404v2.pdf ), you'll see that Wigner recanted his views in later life: "Importantly, however, Wigner dropped this opinion completely at his final years (Esfeld, 1999)." Here's the reference: Esfeld, M., 1999. "Wigner’s view of physical reality." Studies In History and Philosophy of Science Part B: Studies In History and Philosophy of Modern Physics 30, 145–154. See section 2.5 on Wigner's later change of position. A brief excerpt:
In his last papers on the interpretation of quantum mechanics from the late seventies and the first half of the eighties, Wigner changes his position to a considerable extent. Two reasons for this change can be extracted from his papers—a physical one and a philosophical one. The physical reason is the following one: Wigner is deeply impressed by arguments to the effect that macroscopic objects can never be considered as isolated systems. Wigner refers in particular to the work of Zeh (pp. 66, 75, 215–216, 271, 334, 338, 341, 583, 606, 615). For instance, in a paper of 1984, he says: ‘This writer’s earlier belief that the role of the physical apparatus can always be described by quantum mechanics [...] implied that “the collapse of the wave function” takes place only when the observation is made by a living being — a being clearly outside the scope of our quantum mechanics. The argument which convinced me that quantum mechanics’ validity has narrower limitations, that it is not applicable to the description of the detailed behaviour of macroscopic bodies, is due to D. Zeh’ (p. 240).... Changing his mind, Wigner makes a concrete suggestion for an amendment of the Schrödinger equation which is intended to describe a physical process of state reduction (pp. 75–77, 242–243). A state reduction is thus supposed to occur as an objective event in the physical realm before the von Neumann chain reaches the consciousness of an observer. It is a remarkable sign of intellectual vivacity that Wigner carried out such a significant change of his stance on the measurement problem when he was already more than seventy years old.
Your next three links relate to quantum teleportation. According to the Wikipedia article on the subject, "quantum teleportation concerns only the transfer of information." That is, "Quantum teleportation is not a form of transportation, but of communication; it provides a way of transporting a qubit from one location to another, without having to move a physical particle along with it." What's more, "[b]ecause it depends on classical communication, which can proceed no faster than the speed of light, it cannot be used for faster-than-light transport or communication of classical bits." I fail to see how this undercuts materialism, or establishes the possibility of perception occurring outside one's body. Relevance to my OP: zero. Your next link is to an article over at ENV by Granville Sewell, on fine-tuning. As I firmly believe in fine-tuning, I can't see how this counts as an argument against anything which I have ever written. It supports theism, but says nothing about human or animal perception. Relevance to my OP: zero. Your next kink is to an article by physicist Stephen Barr, titled, "Does Quantum Physics Make it Easier to Believe in God?" Unfortunately, it cites out-dated arguments by von Neumann and Peierls, which I refuted in comment #12 above, by citing the article, Does Quantum Mechanics Require A Conscious Observer? by Dr. Michael Nauenberg. Excerpt:
Actually, by now it is understood by most physicists that von Neumann’s dilemma arises because he had simplified the measuring device to a system with only a few degrees of freedom, e.g. a pointer with only two states (see Appendix). Instead, a measuring device must have an exponentially large number of degrees of freedom in order to record, more or less permanently, the outcome of a measurement. This recording takes place by a time irreversible process.
I might also add that if a conscious observer were required to collapse the wave function, then it should be possible to perform tests in order to empirically determine which animals are conscious (e.g. dogs) and which are not (e.g. sponges), by checking whether they were capable of collapsing wave functions. However, no-one is proposing any such tests, so I cannot take von Neumann's proposal seriously, on this point. Your final link is to a quote from Wigner, who, as we've seen, recanted his views. In short: none of the links you cited puts a dent in the case I made in my OP. It is now 4:44 a.m., and with your kind permission, I would like to retire for the evening.vjtorley
December 10, 2015
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vjtorley, to be clear, I do not doubt your commitment to Christianity or your sincerity of faith. I am sorry if I, in my brutish debating style, implied otherwise. Indeed, I have seen you, in other areas such as prayer and miracles, give a valiant defense of the Christian faith. It is just in this area of 'mind' that I am having an extremely difficult time reconciling your claims with Christian Theism. Sorry if I offended you.bornagain
December 10, 2015
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vjtorley, Whether you find yourself a good Catholic or not, I find your claims to be very non-theistic in their overall tone. Moreover, I am certainly not defending the notion that human consciousness by itself collapses the 'infinite dimension/infinite information' wave function. Indeed, I firmly hold that the Mind of God is necessary to complete the collapse of the 'infinite dimension/infinite information' wave function. Moreover, I cited Radin's experiments on the double slit, and interaction free measurements, to defeat your severely impoverished notion that the mind of man is a 'caged little mouse' with absolutely no reach outside his temporal/material body
Consciousness and the double-slit interference pattern: six experiments – Radin – 2012 Abstract: A double-slit optical system was used to test the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wavefunction. The ratio of the interference pattern’s double-slit spectral power to its single-slit spectral power was predicted to decrease when attention was focused toward the double slit as compared to away from it. Each test session consisted of 40 counterbalanced attention-toward and attention-away epochs, where each epoch lasted between 15 and 30 s(seconds). Data contributed by 137 people in six experiments, involving a total of 250 test sessions, indicate that on average the spectral ratio decreased as predicted (z = -4:36, p = 6·10^-6). Another 250 control sessions conducted without observers present tested hardware, software, and analytical procedures for potential artifacts; none were identified (z = 0:43, p = 0:67). Variables including temperature, vibration, and signal drift were also tested, and no spurious influences were identified. By contrast, factors associated with consciousness, such as meditation experience, electrocortical markers of focused attention, and psychological factors including openness and absorption, significantly correlated in predicted ways with perturbations in the double-slit interference pattern. The results appear to be consistent with a consciousness-related interpretation of the quantum measurement problem. “It has been experimentally confirmed,, that unstable particles will not decay, or will decay less rapidly, if they are observed. Somehow, observation changes the quantum system. We’re talking pure observation, not interacting with the system in any way.” Douglas Ell – Counting to God – pg. 189 – 2014 – Douglas Ell graduated early from MIT, where he double majored in math and physics. He then obtained a masters in theoretical mathematics from the University of Maryland. Interaction-free measurements by quantum Zeno stabilization of ultracold atoms – 14 April 2015 Excerpt: In our experiments, we employ an ultracold gas in an unstable spin configuration, which can undergo a rapid decay. The object—realized by a laser beam—prevents this decay because of the indirect quantum Zeno effect and thus, its presence can be detected without interacting with a single atom.
bornagain
December 10, 2015
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Well, considering that you yourself do not consider denying the omniscience of God, or your own mind, to be making a claim against Theism, then I guess that would explain your inability to see where Dr. Torley has embraced a severely impoverished view of the human mind as far as Christian Theism is concerned,,,
"Dr. Torley, As ‘children of God’, indeed since God became human in Jesus, I certainly expect my mind to be much more than a caged up little mouse ‘somewhere inside my material body’ that you have made it out to be." - bornagain https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-squid-and-the-supernova-a-reply-to-professor-egnor/#comment-591740
Mapou, I note that you yourself hold tightly to an even more impoverished view of human mind than Dr. Torley currently does.
"I am a Christian but, IMO, the notion that the brain is just a dumb terminal for the spirit/soul is nonsensical religious dogma, the work of the devil. The brain is a marvel of intelligent creation. There can be no thinking without the brain." Mapou https://uncommondescent.com/neuroscience/how-the-brain-enables-the-mind/#comment-553896
I guess that explains why you are so gung ho to call anyone a crackpot who dares challenge this largely non-Theistic view. Do you even believe you have a soul Mapou? Moreover, I note that Dr. Torley quoted several atheistic physicists (Bell, Leggett, Feynman, Gellmann,) in relation to consciousness and quantum mechanics in order to try to defeat a Theistic view of quantum mechanics just so as to try to defend his fairly non-Christian view of the human mind
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-squid-and-the-supernova-a-reply-to-professor-egnor/#comment-591792
If that entire line of argumentation by Dr. Torley, of supporting an atheistic interpretation of Quantum Mechanics in order to try to defend an severely impoverished view of human mind, is not making some fairly large unapologetic claims against Theism, then I don't know what is. If you don't mind, I will wait for Dr. Torley's response to my comments from 52-56, and give him a chance to defend himself, before I comment any further.bornagain
December 10, 2015
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Hi bornagain, For your information, I am a practicing Catholic. I certainly wouldn't call myself a good Catholic, but I do believe what the Church teaches. For you to suggest that I am "leaning towards atheism and contemplating giving up Christian Theism altogether" is nothing short of slanderous.vjtorley
December 10, 2015
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Hi bornagain, I have been watching some of your videos on the delayed choice experiment, and I have to say that I don't see how it supports your case. Here's an excerpt from the video, Quantum Mechanics - Double Slit Experiment. Is anything real? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger):
But strangest of all is what happens when you put detectors next to the slits. When the photons are being watched, the wave pattern disappears. Take away the detectors and the wave pattern comes back. This suggests that we can change the way reality behaves just by looking at it. Does this mean that reality itself is not real? "The modern answer is that the path taken by the photon is not an element of reality. We are not allowed to talk about the photon passing through this one - this slit. Neither are we allowed to say that the photons pass through both slits. All this kind of language is not applicable." (Zeilinger.)
Two points: 1. Note that the detectors next to the slits are not conscious observers. They are cameras. The experiment lends no support to the view that a conscious observer is required to collapse the wave function. 2. God is a conscious observer of the whole of reality. Why doesn't God's observation of reality cause the wave function to collapse? I conclude that an act of conscious observation is neither necessary nor sufficient, in itself, to make the wave function collapse. As far as I can tell, the experiment lends no support to either the view that a conscious mind is required to collapse the wave function, or to the view that perception is something we do outside our bodies, as you seem to suppose.vjtorley
December 10, 2015
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bornagain:
will only respond to Torley’s claims against Theism
Which claims are those? I have never seen Torley make any claim against theism. My understanding is that Torley is a God-believing Catholic philosopher. He may be changing his position a little but you can't grow unless you change a little. Your dishonesty is showing, bornagain.Mapou
December 10, 2015
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Charles, I am done responding to you and will only respond to Torley's claims against Theism. No offence, but I find you are an unnecessary distraction from my main focus.bornagain
December 10, 2015
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bornagain @ 49
You claim that Wheeler’s experiments are just imagination, but his thought experiment has been performed in the lab:
No, my exact words were:
You have omitted from Wheeler’s quote that he was *imagining* how gravitational lensing might demonstrate delayed-choice phenomena. That hasn’t been tested. Rhodes wrote:
In Wheeler’s original thought experiment, he imagined the phenomenon on a cosmic scale, as follows:
I was specific to your cite of Rhodes claim that "We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles "have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy," so to speak." Rhodes cited Jacques et.al "Experimental realization of Wheeler’s delayed-choice GedankenExperiment" in which only a laboratory test was done, not a test of gravitational lensing on delayed choice. Download the paper and read it.
This is not a minor problem for atheists and/or theists who want there to be a diminished role for mind.
I never said that. I just object to your bizzare claims of instantaneous, time-traveling "out-of-body perception" at will, without any explanation, let alone evidence. You and Egnor seem to think that your minds can instantaneously perceive photons currently emitted thousands and millions of light years away at their source, and transform them into mental images as they would appear thousands and millions of years *earlier* when viewed back on earth. You imply that while gazing at a star 100M light years away and 100M years ago, your mind perceives the photons at their source, even if the star went supernova 50M years ago and nolonger emits photons, yet your 'perception at a distance' regardlessly images them in the mind them as if they were emitted 100M years ago. All without explanation from Egnor or you (except to cut & paste irrelevant study excerpts that you misapply to the topic at hand.)
You keep (purposely) ignoring that specific location is not necessary with ‘action/perception at a distance’.
The location of generators, slits, screens, splitters, detectors, etc. is essential insofar as correctly performing the observations and measurements are concerned. The experimenters care very much how their equipment is configured. Likewise 'perception at a distance' is specific to the location of the object being perceived. The surface of the object emitting the photons is the location you specified. And if that location is very distant from the location of the stargazer, then time becomes a critical factor as well. You keep slipping "perception" in as if it equates to "action", and pretending that anything quantum entangled photons can do, your classical perception can do as well, again without any evidence or explanation of mechanism. Perception is "effect" not "cause". An "observer" in quantum experiments is a detector apparatus, and thus how the observation is made, i.e. how the detector works, results in wave or particle like measurements. And when entangled photons are detected/measured, the entangled partner photon is acted upon even over a distance. But you want to argue that a classical "perceiver" equates to a quantum measurement that instantaneously acts at a distance, but you forget that in your 'perception at a distance' argument, you have no entangled photons and two classical (not quantum) causes of the same effect: The physical eye/retina stargazer on earth (who causes the delayed choice of which star to view) and the intangible "perceiver at a distance" who instantaneously causes the emitted photons at the chosen star to be instantaneously "teleported in space-time" to the mind of the stargazer, yet thousands and millions of years in the future of the photons being emitted. The 'action at a distance laboratory experiments show, at quantum levels (not in classical phenomena), that a delayed choice affects an earlier observation. Fine. In Wheeler's gravitational-lensing, double-telescope thought experiment, the choice of how to measure the photon is delayed billions of years - this is simply a hypothetical extrapolation of the double-slit experiments. Also fine. But for "perception at distance" to work as you and Egnor describe it, the causative delayed choice is what ancient starlight to gaze upon (a classical choice, not a quantum measurement) instantaneously "perceives at a distance" where the starlight photons are newly emitted', and causes the image to form in the mind of the stargazer. except that image is thousands and millions of years older than the photons from which it was instantaneously observed. Unlike the double slit experiments, the "perception" isn't earlier than the causitive delayed choice, rather it's instantaneous with the choice also causitive (as you describe it). In 'action at a distance', the delayed choice of how to detect the photons causes their earlier observation to change. In Wheeler's gravitational-lensing thought experiment, the delayed choice of which telescope to look through causes the earlier photon's path around the galaxy to change. But in 'perception at a distance' (as Egnor and bornagain describe it), the delayed choice of what earlier/ancient starlight is selected by the earth-bound stargazer (the star's appearance as it was thousands and millions of years ago), allegedly causes (as Egnor and bornagain claim) 'perception at a distance' of the corresponding starlight (newly emitted at the stars surface) which will later become the ancient starlight mental image when it reaches earth (even though the perception was instantaneous with the stargazing). Wheeler didn't claim selection of which telescope to peer through, somehow instantaneously detects photon's emitted currently at a star in a way that those photons instantaneously appear back at the telescope, yet also as if thousands and millions of years had passed. Neither do the double-slit experiments claim that changes in detection instantaneously observe photons at the beginning of their path as they're emitted from the laser. But that is what Egnor's and your misapplication of quantum 'action at a distance' as a basis for classical 'perception at a distance' implies. I don't dispute spooky 'action at a distance' which has been demonstrated in the laboratory. I dispute your substituting "perception" for "action", assuming that classical phenomena behave as quantum phenomena, and presuming two different, simultaneous, instantaneous causes will produce a single, consistent time-delayed effect. And it isn't like you and Egnor bothered to think about and explain the mechanisms you implicitly presumed.Charles
December 10, 2015
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As with the delayed choice experiment, the violation of Leggett’s inequalities have been extended. This following experiment violated Leggett’s inequality to a stunning 120 standard deviations:
Experimental non-classicality of an indivisible quantum system – Zeilinger 2011 Excerpt: Page 491: “This represents a violation of (Leggett’s) inequality (3) by more than 120 standard deviations, demonstrating that no joint probability distribution is capable of describing our results.” The violation also excludes any non-contextual hidden-variable model.The result does, however, agree well with quantum mechanical predictions, as we will show now.,,, https://vcq.quantum.at/fileadmin/Publications/Experimental%20non-classicality%20of%20an%20indivisible.pdf
The preceding experiment, and the mathematics behind it, and the obvious Theistic implications of it are discussed beginning at the 24:15 minute mark of the following video:
Quantum Weirdness and God 8-9-2014 by Paul Giem – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=N7HHz14tS1c#t=1449
The following video and paper get the general, and dramatic, point across of what ‘giving up realism’ actually means:
    Quantum Physics – (material reality does not exist until we look at it) – Dr. Quantum video     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ezNvpFcJU     Macrorealism Emerging from Quantum Physics – Brukner, Caslav; Kofler, Johannes     American Physical Society, APS March Meeting, – March 5-9, 2007     Excerpt: for unrestricted measurement accuracy a violation of macrorealism (i.e., a violation of the Leggett-Garg inequalities) is possible for arbitrary large systems.,,     http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007APS..MARB33005B
But, as if all that was not enough to demonstrate consciousness’s centrality in quantum mechanics, I then learned about something called the ‘Quantum Zeno Effect’,,
    Quantum Zeno Effect     The quantum Zeno effect is,, an unstable particle, if observed continuously, will never decay.     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect “It has been experimentally confirmed,, that unstable particles will not decay, or will decay less rapidly, if they are observed. Somehow, observation changes the quantum system. We’re talking pure observation, not interacting with the system in any way.” Douglas Ell – Counting to God – pg. 189 – 2014 – Douglas Ell graduated early from MIT, where he double majored in math and physics. He then obtained a masters in theoretical mathematics from the University of Maryland. After graduating from law school, magna cum laude, he became a prominent attorney. Interaction-free measurements by quantum Zeno stabilization of ultracold atoms – 14 April 2015 Excerpt: In our experiments, we employ an ultracold gas in an unstable spin configuration, which can undergo a rapid decay. The object—realized by a laser beam—prevents this decay because of the indirect quantum Zeno effect and thus, its presence can be detected without interacting with a single atom. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2015/150414/ncomms7811/full/ncomms7811.html?WT.ec_id=NCOMMS-20150415
The reason why I am very impressed with the Quantum Zeno effect as to establishing consciousness’s primacy in quantum mechanics is, for one thing, that Entropy is, by a wide margin, the most finely tuned of initial conditions of the Big Bang:
    The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose    Excerpt: “The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the “source” of the Second Law (Entropy).”     How special was the big bang? – Roger Penrose     Excerpt: This now tells us how precise the Creator’s aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123.     (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 – 1989)
For another thing, it is interesting to note just how foundational entropy is in its explanatory power for actions within the space-time of the universe:
    Shining Light on Dark Energy – October 21, 2012     Excerpt: It (Entropy) explains time; it explains every possible action in the universe;,,     Even gravity, Vedral argued, can be expressed as a consequence of the law of entropy. ,,,    The principles of thermodynamics are at their roots all to do with information theory. Information theory is simply an embodiment of how we interact with the universe —,,, http://crev.info/2012/10/shining-light-on-dark-energy/
In fact, entropy is also the primary reason why our physical, temporal, bodies grow old and die,,,
    Aging Process – 85 years in 40 seconds – video     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91Fwf_sMhk     *3 new mutations every time a cell divides in your body     * Average cell of 15 year old has up to 6000 mutations     *Average cell of 60 year old has 40,000 mutations    Reproductive cells are ‘designed’ so that, early on in development, they are ‘set aside’ and thus they do not accumulate mutations as the rest of the cells of our bodies do. Regardless of this protective barrier against the accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations still we find that,,,     *60-175 mutations are passed on to each new generation.     Per John Sanford Entropy Explains Aging, Genetic Determinism Explains Longevity, and Undefined Terminology Explains Misunderstanding Both - 2007 Excerpt: There is a huge body of knowledge supporting the belief that age changes are characterized by increasing entropy, which results in the random loss of molecular fidelity, and accumulates to slowly overwhelm maintenance systems [1–4].,,, http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030220
And yet, to repeat,,,
    Quantum Zeno effect     Excerpt: The quantum Zeno effect is,,, an unstable particle, if observed continuously, will never decay.     per wiki
This is just fascinating! Why in blue blazes should conscious observation put a freeze on entropic decay, unless consciousness was/is more foundational to reality than the 1 in 10^10^123 entropy is? Verse:
Romans 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Putting all these lines of evidence together, the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this:
1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality.      Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect)
bornagain
December 10, 2015
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Then after I had learned about Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, I stumbled across Wheeler’s Delayed choice experiments in which this finding shocked me as to the central importance of the observer’s free will choice in quantum experiments:
    Wheeler’s Classic Delayed Choice Experiment:    Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles “have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy,” so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm Alain Aspect speaks on John Wheeler’s Delayed Choice Experiment – video     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--BdgqH7pjI     “Thus one decides the photon shall have come by one route or by both routes after it has already done its travel”     John A. Wheeler    “It begins to look as we ourselves, by our last minute decision, have an influence on what a photon will do when it has already accomplished most of its doing… we have to say that we ourselves have an undeniable part in what we have always called the past. The past is not really the past until is has been registered. Or to put it another way, the past has no meaning or existence unless it exists as a record in the present.”     – John Wheeler – The Ghost In The Atom – Page 66-68
Then, a little bit later, I learned that the delayed choice experiment had been extended:
    The Experiment That Debunked Materialism – video – (delayed choice quantum eraser)     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKUass7G8w
And then I learned the delayed choice experiment was refined yet again:
   “If we attempt to attribute an objective meaning to the quantum state of a single system, curious paradoxes appear: quantum effects mimic not only instantaneous action-at-a-distance but also, as seen here, influence of future actions on past events, even after these events have been irrevocably recorded.”     Asher Peres, Delayed choice for entanglement swapping. J. Mod. Opt. 47, 139-143 (2000).     Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a “Gedankenexperiment” called “delayed-choice entanglement swapping”, formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor’s choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. “We found that whether Alice’s and Bob’s photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured”, explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study.    According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html
You can see a more complete explanation of the startling results of the experiment at the 9:11 minute mark of the following video:
    Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment Explained – 2014 video     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6HLjpj4Nt4
This following experiment also extended Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment:
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness - May 27, 2015 Excerpt: The bizarre nature of reality as laid out by quantum theory has survived another test, with scientists performing a famous experiment and proving that reality does not exist until it is measured. Physicists at The Australian National University (ANU) have conducted John Wheeler's delayed-choice thought experiment, which involves a moving object that is given the choice to act like a particle or a wave. Wheeler's experiment then asks - at which point does the object decide? Common sense says the object is either wave-like or particle-like, independent of how we measure it. But quantum physics predicts that whether you observe wave like behavior (interference) or particle behavior (no interference) depends only on how it is actually measured at the end of its journey. This is exactly what the ANU team found. "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it," said Associate Professor Andrew Truscott from the ANU Research School of Physics and Engineering. Despite the apparent weirdness, the results confirm the validity of quantum theory, which,, has enabled the development of many technologies such as LEDs, lasers and computer chips. The ANU team not only succeeded in building the experiment, which seemed nearly impossible when it was proposed in 1978, but reversed Wheeler's original concept of light beams being bounced by mirrors, and instead used atoms scattered by laser light. "Quantum physics' predictions about interference seem odd enough when applied to light, which seems more like a wave, but to have done the experiment with atoms, which are complicated things that have mass and interact with electric fields and so on, adds to the weirdness," said Roman Khakimov, PhD student at the Research School of Physics and Engineering. http://phys.org/news/2015-05-quantum-theory-weirdness.html Do atoms going through a double slit ‘know’ if they are being observed? - May 26, 2015 Excerpt: Indeed, the results of both Truscott and Aspect’s experiments shows that a particle’s wave or particle nature is most likely undefined until a measurement is made. The other less likely option would be that of backward causation – that the particle somehow has information from the future – but this involves sending a message faster than light, which is forbidden by the rules of relativity (but not necessarily forbidden by ‘spooky action at a distance’) http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2015/may/26/do-atoms-going-through-a-double-slit-know-if-they-are-being-observed
And then, after the delayed choice experiments, I learned about something called Leggett’s Inequality. Leggett’s Inequality was, as far as I can tell, a mathematical proof developed by Nobelist Anthony Leggett to prove ‘realism’. Realism is the belief that an objective reality exists independently of a conscious observer looking at it. And, as is usual with challenging the predictions of Quantum Mechanics, his proof was violated by a stunning 80 orders of magnitude, thus once again, in over the top fashion, highlighting the central importance of the conscious observer to Quantum Experiments:
   A team of physicists in Vienna has devised experiments that may answer one of the enduring riddles of science: Do we create the world just by looking at it? – 2008     Excerpt: In mid-2007 Fedrizzi found that the new realism model was violated by 80 orders of magnitude; the group was even more assured that quantum mechanics was correct.     Leggett agrees with Zeilinger that realism is wrong in quantum mechanics, but when I asked him whether he now believes in the theory, he answered only “no” before demurring, “I’m in a small minority with that point of view and I wouldn’t stake my life on it.” For Leggett there are still enough loopholes to disbelieve. I asked him what could finally change his mind about quantum mechanics. Without hesitation, he said sending humans into space as detectors to test the theory.,,,     (to which Anton Zeilinger responded)    When I mentioned this to Prof. Zeilinger he said, “That will happen someday. There is no doubt in my mind. It is just a question of technology.” Alessandro Fedrizzi had already shown me a prototype of a realism experiment he is hoping to send up in a satellite. It’s a heavy, metallic slab the size of a dinner plate. http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P3/
Prof. Richard Conn Henry stated this after the Leggett results came in   
Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger by Richard Conn Henry – Physics Professor – John Hopkins University    Excerpt: Why do people cling with such ferocity to belief in a mind-independent reality? It is surely because if there is no such reality, then ultimately (as far as we can know) mind alone exists. And if mind is not a product of real matter, but rather is the creator of the “illusion” of material reality (which has, in fact, despite the materialists, been known to be the case, since the discovery of quantum mechanics in 1925), then a theistic view of our existence becomes the only rational alternative to solipsism (solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one’s own mind is sure to exist). (Dr. Henry’s referenced experiment and paper – “An experimental test of non-local realism” by S. Gröblacher et. al., Nature 446, 871, April 2007 – “To be or not to be local” by Alain Aspect, Nature 446, 866, April 2007 (Leggett’s Inequality: Violated to 80 orders of magnitude)     http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/aspect.html
bornagain
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As to “decoherence'',
The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf
Although decohernce is far more plausibe than MWI, the following video is very good for clearly demonstrating that decoherence does not solve the measurement problem:
The Measurement Problem in quantum mechanics - (Inspiring Philosophy) - 2014 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB7d5V71vUE
As to more specific evidence for consciousness in quantum mechanics. That consciousness is integral to quantum mechanics is fairly obvious to the unbiased observer (no pun intended). I first, much like everybody else, was immediately shocked to learn that the observer could have any effect whatsoever in the double slit experiment:
Dr. Quantum – Double Slit Experiment – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1YqgPAtzho Double Slit Experiment – Explained By Prof Anton Zeilinger – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/6101627/ Quantum Mechanics – Double Slit Experiment. Is anything real? (Prof. Anton Zeilinger) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayvbKafw2g0
Dean Radin, who spent years at Princeton testing different aspects of consciousness, recently performed experiments testing the possible role of consciousness in the double slit. His results were, not so surprisingly, very supportive of consciousness’s central role in the experiment:
    Consciousness and the double-slit interference pattern: six experiments – Radin – 2012    Abstract: A double-slit optical system was used to test the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wavefunction. The ratio of the interference pattern’s double-slit spectral power to its single-slit spectral power was predicted to decrease when attention was focused toward the double slit as compared to away from it. Each test session consisted of 40 counterbalanced attention-toward and attention-away epochs, where each epoch lasted between 15 and 30 s(seconds). Data contributed by 137 people in six experiments, involving a total of 250 test sessions, indicate that on average the spectral ratio decreased as predicted (z = -4:36, p = 6·10^-6). Another 250 control sessions conducted without observers present tested hardware, software, and analytical procedures for potential artifacts; none were identified (z = 0:43, p = 0:67). Variables including temperature, vibration, and signal drift were also tested, and no spurious influences were identified. By contrast, factors associated with consciousness, such as meditation experience, electrocortical markers of focused attention, and psychological factors including openness and absorption, significantly correlated in predicted ways with perturbations in the double-slit interference pattern. The results appear to be consistent with a consciousness-related interpretation of the quantum measurement problem. http://www.deanradin.com/papers/Physics%20Essays%20Radin%20final.pdf Psychophysical (i.e.,  mind–matter) interactions with a double-slit interference pattern - Dean Radin, Leena Michel, James Johnston, and Arnaud Delorme - December 2013 Abstract: Previously  reported  experiments  suggested  that  interference  patterns  generated  by  a double-slit  optical  system  were  perturbed  by  a  psychophysical  (i.e.,  mind–matter)  interaction. Three new experiments were conducted to further investigate this phenomenon. The first study consisted of 50 half-hour test sessions where participants concentrated their attention-toward or -away from a double-slit system located 3 m away. The spectral magnitude and phase associated with the double-slit component of the interference pattern were compared between the two attention conditions, and the combined results provided evidence for an interaction,,,. One  hundred  control  sessions  using  the  same  equipment,  protocol  and  analysis, but   without   participants   present,   showed   no   effect,,,. The second experiment used a duplicate double-slit system and similar test protocol, but it was conducted over the Internet by streaming data to participants’ web browsers. Some 685 people from six continents contributed 2089 experimental sessions. Results were similar to those observed in the first experiment, but smaller in magnitude,,,. Data from 2303 control sessions, conducted automatically every 2 h using the same equipment but without observers showed no effect. Distance between participants and the optical system, ranging from 1 km to 18,000 km, showed no correlation with experimental effect size. The third experiment used a newly designed double-slit system, a revised test protocol, and a simpler method of statistical analysis. Twenty sessions contributed by 10 participants successfully replicated  the  interaction  effect  observed  in  the  first  two  studies. http://deanradin.com/evidence/RadinPhysicsEssays2013.pdf
One of the first interesting experiments in quantum mechanics I found after the double slit, that highlighted the centrality of the observer to the experiment, was Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries. Here is Wigner commenting on the key experiment that led Wigner to his Nobel Prize winning work on quantum symmetries,,,
Eugene Wigner Excerpt: When I returned to Berlin, the excellent crystallographer Weissenberg asked me to study: why is it that in a crystal the atoms like to sit in a symmetry plane or symmetry axis. After a short time of thinking I understood:,,,, To express this basic experience in a more direct way: the world does not have a privileged center, there is no absolute rest, preferred direction, unique origin of calendar time, even left and right seem to be rather symmetric. The interference of electrons, photons, neutrons has indicated that the state of a particle can be described by a vector possessing a certain number of components. As the observer is replaced by another observer (working elsewhere, looking at a different direction, using another clock, perhaps being left-handed), the state of the very same particle is described by another vector, obtained from the previous vector by multiplying it with a matrix. This matrix transfers from one observer to another. http://www.reak.bme.hu/Wigner_Course/WignerBio/wb1.htm
Wigner went on to make these rather dramatic comments in regards to his work:
“It was not possible to formulate the laws (of quantum theory) in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” Eugene Wigner (1902 -1995) from his collection of essays “Symmetries and Reflections – Scientific Essays”; Eugene Wigner laid the foundation for the theory of symmetries in quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1963.
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Wave function Excerpt "wave functions form an abstract vector space",,, This vector space is infinite-dimensional, because there is no finite set of functions which can be added together in various combinations to create every possible function. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function#Wave_functions_as_an_abstract_vector_space Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf
Moreover, information has actually been encoded into the wave function:
Single photons to soak up data: Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information. http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201 Ultra-Dense Optical Storage - on One Photon Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image's worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact.,,, As a wave, it passed through all parts of the stencil at once,,, http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html “By its conventional definition, a photon is one unit of excitation of a mode of the electromagnetic field. The modes of the electromagnetic field constitute a countably infinite set of basis functions, and in this sense the amount of information that can be impressed onto an individual photon is unlimited.” Robert W. Boyd – The Enabling Technology for Quantum Information Science 2013 - University of Rochester, Rochester, NY - lead researcher of the experiment which encoded information in a photon in 2010 Quantum Computing – Stanford Encyclopedia Excerpt: Theoretically, a single qubit can store an infinite amount of information, yet when measured (and thus collapsing the Quantum Wave state) it yields only the classical result (0 or 1),,, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-quantcomp/#2.1
Thus every time we observe, (i.e. collapse a quantum wave of), a single photon we are actually seeing just a single bit of information that was originally created from a very specific set of infinite information that was known by the consciousness that preceded material reality. i.e. information that was known only by the infinite Mind of omniscient God!
Job 38:19-20 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?”
Two of the most popular ways, that I am aware of, that try to get around wave function collapse without invoking consciousness/God are Many Worlds and decoherence. Many Worlds tries to deal with the 'problem' of wave function collapse simply by denying the reality of wave function collapse:
Quantum mechanics Excerpt: The Everett many-worlds interpretation, formulated in 1956, holds that all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a multiverse composed of mostly independent parallel universes.[43] This is not accomplished by introducing some new axiom to quantum mechanics, but on the contrary by removing the axiom of the collapse of the wave packet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics#Philosophical_implications The many-worlds interpretation is an interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation
Yet, contrary to MWI, the following experiment shows the collapse of the wave function to be a real effect,,
Quantum experiment verifies Einstein's 'spooky action at a distance' - March 24, 2015 Excerpt: An experiment,, has for the first time demonstrated Albert Einstein's original conception of "spooky action at a distance" using a single particle. ,,Professor Howard Wiseman and his experimental collaborators,, report their use of homodyne measurements to show what Einstein did not believe to be real, namely the non-local collapse of a (single) particle's wave function.,, According to quantum mechanics, a single particle can be described by a wave function that spreads over arbitrarily large distances,,, ,, by splitting a single photon between two laboratories, scientists have used homodyne detectors—which measure wave-like properties—to show the collapse of the wave function is a real effect,, This phenomenon is explained in quantum theory,, the instantaneous non-local, (beyond space and time), collapse of the wave function to wherever the particle is detected.,,, "Einstein never accepted orthodox quantum mechanics and the original basis of his contention was this single-particle argument. This is why it is important to demonstrate non-local wave function collapse with a single particle," says Professor Wiseman. "Einstein's view was that the detection of the particle only ever at one point could be much better explained by the hypothesis that the particle is only ever at one point, without invoking the instantaneous collapse of the wave function to nothing at all other points. "However, rather than simply detecting the presence or absence of the particle, we used homodyne measurements enabling one party to make different measurements and the other, using quantum tomography, to test the effect of those choices." "Through these different measurements, you see the wave function collapse in different ways, thus proving its existence and showing that Einstein was wrong." http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html
As well, in Many Worlds denying the reality of wave function collapse, Many Worlds truly exposes materialism in all its full blown absurdity in doing so. i.e. The particle is given so much unmerited power in the many worlds interpretation (MWI) of Quantum Mechanics that every time someone observes a particle, instead of the wave function merely collapsing, the particle instead creates a virtual infinity of parallel universes.
Too many worlds - Philip Ball - Feb. 17, 2015 Excerpt:,,, You measure the path of an electron, and in this world it seems to go this way, but in another world it went that way. That requires a parallel, identical apparatus for the electron to traverse. More – it requires a parallel you to measure it. Once begun, this process of fabrication has no end: you have to build an entire parallel universe around that one electron, identical in all respects except where the electron went. You avoid the complication of wavefunction collapse, but at the expense of making another universe.,,, http://aeon.co/magazine/science/is-the-many-worlds-hypothesis-just-a-fantasy/
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Quantum state may be a real thing - July 2, 2014 Excerpt: At the very heart of quantum mechanics lies a monster waiting to consume unwary minds. This monster goes by the name The Nature of Reality™. The greatest of physicists have taken one look into its mouth, saw the size of its teeth, and were consumed. Niels Bohr denied the existence of the monster after he nonchalantly (and very quietly) exited the monster's lair muttering "shut up and calculate." Einstein caught a glimpse of the teeth and fainted. He was reportedly rescued by Erwin Schrödinger at great personal risk, but neither really recovered from their encounter with the beast.,,, (some) scientists believed that,, quantum mechanics would eventually be explained by,, some deterministic property that we simply couldn't directly observe (otherwise known as a hidden variable). Another group ended up believing that quantum mechanics did represent reality, and that, yes, reality was non-local, and possibly not very real either. To one extent or another, these two groups are still around and still generate a fair amount of heat when they are in proximity to each other. Over the years, you would have to say that the scales have been slowly tipping in favor of the latter group. Experiments and theory have largely eliminated hidden variables. Bohm's pilot wave, a type of hidden variable, has to be pretty extraordinary to be real. http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/07/quantum-state-may-be-a-real-thing/
Since there is no shortage of papers that Dr. Torley could appeal to that seek to 'explain away' consciousness in quantum mechanics, (just as there are no shortage of papers that seek to 'explain away the design we see in biology), and yet since consciousness still refuses to go away from Quantum Mechanics (in fact, the case for consciousness in quantum mechanics grows stronger as time goes by), I think it is good to first lay out a few of the reasons why consciousness, both the consciousness of man and the Mind of God, has become so inextricably bound to debates about quantum mechanics. First off, reductive materialism which holds that consciousness is an 'emergent' property from matter, and upon which neo-Darwinism itself is based, is simply incompatible with quantum mechanics.
Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism - By Bruce L Gordon: Excerpt: Because quantum theory is thought to provide the bedrock for our scientific understanding of physical reality, it is to this theory that the materialist inevitably appeals in support of his worldview. But having fled to science in search of a safe haven for his doctrines, the materialist instead finds that quantum theory in fact dissolves and defeats his materialist understanding of the world.,, The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical - and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939 "[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM
In fact, in what I regard to be a complete falsification of reductive materialism, physicists have reduced material, via quantum teleportation, to quantum information. (of note: energy is completely reduced to quantum information, whereas matter is semi-completely reduced, with the caveat being that matter can be reduced to energy via e=mc2).
Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,, “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/teleportation1.htm Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,” http://researcher.ibm.com/view_project.php?id=2862
Seeing as reductive materialism, the base philosophy of most Darwinian atheists, is dealt a fatal blow right off the bat before any alternative hypothesis for quantum mechanics is even considered, then quantum mechanics is certainly a promising avenue for a Theist to naturally follow. As well, in attempts to 'explain away' the fine tuning of the universe, atheists inadvertently forget that the Schroedinger equation itself appears to be fine-tuned, and thus is itself in need of explanation.
The Fundamental Equation of Chemistry Is Itself Fine-Tuned - Granville Sewell - January 13, 2015 Excerpt: It is well known that all of the fundamental constants of physics are finely tuned to make life possible in our universe; for example, see this nice video featured recently at ENV. It is also well known that many scientists, in order to avoid drawing the obvious conclusion from this fine-tuning, postulate the existence of a huge number of other unobservable universes, in which these constants have random values, so that one was bound to get lucky and produce numbers favorable to life. What is not so widely noticed is that not only are the values of the constants of chemistry (the masses and charges of electrons, protons and neutrons, the strengths of the nuclear and electromagnetic forces, etc.) critical for life to exist in our universe, but the fundamental equation of chemistry, the Schroedinger equation, is itself critical for life.,,, For example, the figure at the top of this post is a contour surface plot of the probability distribution for one energy state of an electron orbiting two protons, from Fitzgerald and Sewell 2000, which was obtained by solving the Schroedinger equation using my PDE solver, PDE2D. See the PDE2D web page for a list of over 225 journal publications in which the numerical results were produced by PDE2D, and a link to the new third edition of my PDE book (Sewell 2015). If the elementary particles interacted by bouncing off each other like tiny balls obeying classical Newtonian laws, chemistry would be dead.,,, Are we to assume that in all these other universes there are still electromagnetic and nuclear forces, electrons, protons, and neutrons, and the behavior of the particles is still governed by the Schroedinger equation; but the forces, masses and charges, and Planck's constant, have different values, generated by some cosmic random number generator?,,, The fundamental equation of chemistry appears to itself be fine-tuned. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/01/the_fundamental_1092661.html
Moreover, the Schroedinger equation is also where the need for a conscious observer in quantum mechanics first makes itself known.
“We wish to measure a temperature.,,, But in any case, no matter how far we calculate — to the mercury vessel, to the scale of the thermometer, to the retina, or into the brain, at some time we must say: and this is perceived by the observer. That is, we must always divide the world into two parts, the one being the observed system, the other the observer.” John von Neumann – 1903-1957 – The Mathematical Foundations of Quantum Mechanics, pp.418-21 – 1955 Does Quantum Physics Make it Easier to Believe in God? Stephen M. Barr – July 10, 2012 Excerpt: Couldn’t an inanimate physical device (say, a Geiger counter) carry out a “measurement” (minus the ‘observer’ in quantum mechanics)? That would run into the very problem pointed out by von Neumann: If the “observer” were just a purely physical entity, such as a Geiger counter, one could in principle write down a bigger wavefunction that described not only the thing being measured but also the observer. And, when calculated with the Schrödinger equation, that bigger wave function would not jump! Again: as long as only purely physical entities are involved, they are governed by an equation that says that the probabilities don’t jump. That’s why, when Peierls was asked whether a machine could be an “observer,” he said no, explaining that “the quantum mechanical description is in terms of knowledge, and knowledge requires somebody who knows.” Not a purely physical thing, but a mind. https://www.bigquestionsonline.com/content/does-quantum-physics-make-it-easier-believe-god
As well, it is good to point out that the wave function in the Schrödinger equation is mathematically defined as Infinite information
The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences – Eugene Wigner – 1960 Excerpt: We now have, in physics, two theories of great power and interest: the theory of quantum phenomena and the theory of relativity.,,, The two theories operate with different mathematical concepts: the four dimensional Riemann space and the infinite dimensional Hilbert space, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html
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Michael Egnor's post at ENV is well worth the read, and I really appreciate VJT taking on the issues it raises. An interesting discussion! I think that your average citizen has no idea how much of Cartesian thinking they ascribe to without even knowing it.Mung
December 10, 2015
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This is a great topic to talk about, and I think we can possibly do an actual demonstration using tennis. When a player is about to hit the ball does he perceive where his target is or does he do so where he is? Similarly the person receiving the ball does he perceive where the ball will go or will he do so in his head? I wonder.Andre
December 9, 2015
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You claim that Wheeler's experiments are just imagination, but his thought experiment has been performed in the lab: "this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory." Moreover, as pointed out, the Wheeler experiments have been extended, experimentally, to "mimic not only instantaneous action-at-a-distance but also, as seen here, influence of future actions on past events, even after these events have been irrevocably recorded." This is not a minor problem for atheists and/or theists who want there to be a diminished role for mind. Moreover, Wheeler's Delayed Choice experiments (as well as Quantum Zeno Effect) show that 'Perception at a distance' equates to 'action at a distance'. You keep (purposely?) ignoring that specific location is not necessary with 'action/perception at a distance'. Of note: That is my last response to Charles. I'll save my replies for answering any of Torley's further challenges to a Theistic interpretation of quantum mechanics.bornagain
December 9, 2015
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Interesting discussion. I'm inclined toward Dr Torley's view on common sense grounds, but Dr Egnor makes some good points as well. Not being an expert on QM and Aristotle, I don't have the expertise to pronounce one side is right or wrong with any degree of confidence! I wonder if the recent trend in physics to suspect that quantum entanglement is space, while computational complexity is related to time, may be relevant to our discussion. "Despite the remaining challenges, there is a sense among the practitioners of this field that they have begun to glimpse something real and very important. “I didn’t know what space was made of before,” says Swingle. “It wasn’t clear that question even had meaning.” But now, he says, it is becoming increasingly apparent that the question does make sense. “And the answer is something that we understand,” says Swingle. “It’s made of entanglement.” http://www.nature.com/news/the-quantum-source-of-space-time-1.18797anthropic
December 9, 2015
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So crap it is. LOL
Glad to see you acknowledge what you posted was crap.
Opinions and interpretations do not count as science. They count as crackpottery
And what is this:
This is no better than the medieval church debating angels and pinheads.
???Vy
December 9, 2015
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bornagain @ 42 Until you cut and paste a quantum mechanical explanation specific to Egnor's perception at a distance (where the photon's are emitted), you're wasting everyones' time and bandwidth.
Wheeler’s ‘Delayed Choice’ experiments have been very successful in showing that ‘observation’ defies time and space and is indeed ‘action at a distance’ just as Dr. Egnor holds.
You have omitted from Wheeler's quote that he was *imagining* how gravitational lensing might demonstrate delayed-choice phenomena. That hasn't been tested. Rhodes wrote:
In Wheeler's original thought experiment, he imagined the phenomenon on a cosmic scale, as follows:
Imagination, whether Wheeler's, Egnor's or yours, does not equate to fact. And as for 'action at a distance', ok let's go there. Explain how quantum 'action at a distance' explains that the Orion nebula appears point-like when perceived at the nebula where the photons are emitted? How does 'action at a distance' change the image from the actual vast nebula 'perceived where photons are emitted' into a mere point-like, star-like object appearing in our eyes after those photons have traversed some 1,344 light years? How does 'action at a distance' account for the differences between what is 'perceived where the photons are emitted' and what is perceived where the photons strike our eyes?Charles
December 9, 2015
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Vy:
So yeah, it is crap.
So crap it is. LOL Adios.Mapou
December 9, 2015
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bornagain quoting another fallible god, Wheeler:
Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago.
This is no better than the medieval church debating angels and pinheads. The science in this is exactly zero. Opinions and interpretations do not count as science. They count as crackpottery, not unlike Egnor's crackpottery.Mapou
December 9, 2015
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Is this supposed to have an effect or something? Scare me, maybe? ahahaha…AHAHAHA
Don't flatter yourself.
Where did this crap come from?
You took the claims of God "regretting" to mean God isn't omniscient (even though the Bible makes it clear that He is) so it's just as much crap as claiming God is "jealous" to mean what it means in human interactions (even though the Bible says otherwise). So yeah, it is crap.
You got a demon
A projection is the best thing you could come up with? *facepalm*Vy
December 9, 2015
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Wheeler’s ‘Delayed Choice’ experiments have been very successful in showing that ‘observation’ defies time and space and is indeed ‘action at a distance’ just as Dr. Egnor holds. Wheeler’s Classic Delayed Choice Experiment: Excerpt: Now, for many billions of years the photon is in transit in region 3. Yet we can choose (many billions of years later) which experimental set up to employ – the single wide-focus, or the two narrowly focused instruments. We have chosen whether to know which side of the galaxy the photon passed by (by choosing whether to use the two-telescope set up or not, which are the instruments that would give us the information about which side of the galaxy the photon passed). We have delayed this choice until a time long after the particles “have passed by one side of the galaxy, or the other side of the galaxy, or both sides of the galaxy,” so to speak. Yet, it seems paradoxically that our later choice of whether to obtain this information determines which side of the galaxy the light passed, so to speak, billions of years ago. So it seems that time has nothing to do with effects of quantum mechanics. And, indeed, the original thought experiment was not based on any analysis of how particles evolve and behave over time – it was based on the mathematics. This is what the mathematics predicted for a result, and this is exactly the result obtained in the laboratory. http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/basic_delayed_choice.htm The Experiment That Debunked Materialism – video – (delayed choice quantum eraser) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xKUass7G8w Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a “Gedankenexperiment” called “delayed-choice entanglement swapping”, formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor’s choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. “We found that whether Alice’s and Bob’s photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured”, explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html “If we attempt to attribute an objective meaning to the quantum state of a single system, curious paradoxes appear: quantum effects mimic not only instantaneous action-at-a-distance but also, as seen here, influence of future actions on past events, even after these events have been irrevocably recorded.” Asher Peres, Delayed choice for entanglement swapping. J. Mod. Opt. 47, 139-143 (2000). You can see a little better explanation of the “delayed-choice entanglement swapping” experiment at the 9:11 minute mark of the following video Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment Explained – 2014 video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6HLjpj4Nt4bornagain
December 9, 2015
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bornagain @ 36
Charles, here is Egnor’s response (which you apparently did not read)
Oh I read it. I see his vague handwaving about what Aristotle thought and Cartesian/Lockean doctrine, and his unsubstantiated assertion "Thus, in my interpretation, possession of an object entails possession of its location — perception of an object occurs at the location of the object." I read his simplistic examples, in which the physics of distance, time and scale don't matter and can be (for his sake) conveniently ignored. His answer is philosophical musing. It is not an explanation of physical (even quantum physical) reality. Note that I've given you an opportunity to explain the quantum physics of how 'perception where photons are emitted' reconciles with the reality of the images we see when distance, time, and scale can not be ignored, and you deferred to the answers Egnor didn't give. But nowhere in his response nor yours (as you only mimic him) is there any engagement of the physics involved, when distance, time, and scale significantly affect what we see.Charles
December 9, 2015
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I wrote:
You can’t have regrets if you know everything.
Vy writes:
What????!!!?!?
Is this supposed to have an effect or something? Scare me, maybe? ahahaha...AHAHAHA...
That’s akin to saying God’s a murderer for causing the flood or that he’s “jealous” in the normal sense of the word.
Where did this crap come from? You got a demon, dude. :-DMapou
December 9, 2015
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Yeah Mapou, I know, I know, everything and everyone that disagrees with you is BS and a BSer. How you put up with us mere mortals for so long I'll never know.bornagain
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You worship a god that you invented. My God said that he regretted having created humans. You can’t have regrets if you know everything.
What????!!!?!? That's akin to saying God's a murderer for causing the flood or that he's "jealous" in the normal sense of the word. Considering the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God is omniscient and immutable, it's your god that was invented by you.Vy
December 9, 2015
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