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The Woeful State of Modern Debate

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In debate after debate I’m sure we’ve all noticed that some people continually recycle the same statements over and over as if those statements represent something more than emotion-laden rhetoric that hasn’t already been factually and logically refuted or otherwise sufficiently responded to.  While this is hardly surprising, what has piqued my interest are discussions involving the election of Donald J. Trump and abortion, I suppose because those subjects carry a great deal of emotional weight for many people. I think the reaction to these subjects reveals something extremely interesting and dangerous to society.

I’m not just talking about atheists/materialists here, but people in general. In every single discussion I had with anyone not supporting Trump, their reaction to Trump was not one of cool political discourse, but of outright hate.  They hated Trump.  However, not a single one of them could give me even a single policy position of the candidate.  Not a single one of them could tell me anything whatsoever about his history other than that he was a rich businessman and star of The Apprentice.  None of them had ever even watched a single, whole Trump rally video. Having a discussion with them brought out all the negative characterizations of Trump you find/found everywhere in various media outlets, including comments about his “orange” skin and  comb-over hair.

Similarly, when having a “debate” about abortion, the same emotion-laden polemic is used over and over.  Recently, on this blog, some commenters offer supposed “righteous indignation” about how pro-life advocates act (or rather, in their eyes, refuse to act appropriately) in response to what they refer to as a “holocaust” – the mass-murder of the unborn.  Others react with emotional, “shaming” and “virtue-signalling” talking points about “reproductive rights” and “patriarchical oppression”. Ignoring the scientific fact that human life is known to begin at conception, they talk about other points of the growth of a human from conception that they personally feel would be better marks for granting human right protections – like where they think the fetus might be self-aware, or feel pain, or upon birth.  While birth, unlike the other points, is not a vague marker, it suffers from other, logical problems as far as being the best marker fo application of human rights, rendering it simply an arbitrary point after conception with respect to application of human rights.

Now, what do these rhetorical responses and positions have in common? They are all based on subjective feelings and arbitrary points of factual reference that support those arbitrary feelings. In other words, it is the personal, subjective feeling that grounds many views, not relevant facts, grounded principles and logical examination.

For example, attacks on Trump and protests against him are not based upon substantive principles, relevant facts and logical examination; if they were, one would realize that unless they have known a person for many years, they are not likely to have a good understanding of that person’s character or views. Certainly, there is no logical or principled basis for taking a few minutes of snippets of what anyone says – especially in private in certain situations – and using those snippets to form a supposedly valid opinion of a person’s entire history or character.  Also, ignoring the relevant facts – the actual entire history of that person in word and deed, and their official statements and policy points unfiltered by perhaps biased interpretation – is at best an unconscious effort to protect one’s negative feelings about that person.

In our other example, some here have made the claim that making abortion illegal might not, in the long term, reduce the number of abortions. If we assume it is a fact (and it is hardly that), it is an irrelevant one with respect to the arguments actually being made about abortion – that accepting and promoting the killing of innocent human life is corrosive to a decent culture based on unalienable human rights.  Pointing out that they themselves would act violently to stop the killing of an innocent and so pro-lifers cannot actually consider abortion the killing of an innocent because they are not reacting violently is nothing more than emotional, self-righteous rhetoric and a false comparison.

There is a principle involved here: that all humans have unalienable rights.  Defenders of abortion make the claim that there are some situations where humans should not have such rights.  This reasoning necessarily opens the door to the subjective view that this group of humans or that group of humans are not protected by human rights.  One might say that a human without apparent self-awareness doesn’t deserve that right; but what is the “self-awareness” marker other than an arbitrarily-assigned category?  Post-birth humans – another arbitrarily assigned category.  How about the comatose?  Severely autistic?  Deformed? One can make the case that if you are missing a limb, then you aren’t “fully” human. Who gets to define what is “human” enough to be deserving of human rights?  Whatever government is in power? Whatever the majority decides?

If we go down that path of reasoning, then the holocaust is – according to that line of reasoning – no different than abortion; government and society defining a category of human life as “not human enough to deserve the basic protection of their right to life” and thus creating the legal and moral freedom to exterminate that class of human life.  Moral subjectivism only exacerbates the hypocrisy of the abortionist argument; if it is society that decides what is and is not human life, then abortion is exactly like the holocaust.

This post-modernist moral relativism renders all “social justice” positions inherently absurd and hypocritical; if I can identify as anything and expect acceptance and tolerance for my position, how then does one justify spewing hate and intolerance for those who self-identify even as racists, misogynists and homophobes? If they can hate Trump, I can hate Clinton.  If they can hate patriarchy, I can hate equality. If they can hate homophobes, then by post-modernist moral subjectivism I am certainly entitled to hate homosexuals.

If there are no fundamental principles or relevant facts from we all agree to submit to and from which we agree to draw rational conclusions, all one is left with is the whim of subjective feelings and arbitrarily organized references to support those feelings.  What that ends up looking like is reliance upon rhetoric, invective, intimidation and, ultimately, violence.  It also ends up looking like what we have on this site – a plethora of people utterly incapable of making a rational argument based upon logical inference derived from principle and relevant fact, ending up in self-conflicting absurdities and hypocrisies.

I’m at a loss at how to begin debating those who have absolutely no understanding of critical reasoning; it’s not like you can educate them in such skill during the debate; they have no idea what you are objecting to.  They don’t comprehend arguments based on principle.  They think any fact that feels like it supports their view actually helps their argument or actually rebuts the other person’s.  They think a comparison of feelings  and hypothetical personal reactions is a valid argument.  They think mockery and personal insult is a valid form of debate.  They think shaming and virtue-signalling is the be-all and end-all of public discourse.  They think some ideas should not be discussed and actually think free speech is “hate” speech.  IOW, as soon as you argue for Trump, or against abortion, you are automatically beyond the realm of civil discourse and the only appropriate response is shaming and ridiculing.

It’s bizarre.  At times, the responses are so orthogonal to rational debate that it requires a massive effort just to explain how their point is entirely irrelevant, but doing so makes no difference because their position is entirely rooted in subjective feelings and arbitrary associations.

Armand Jacks and RVB8 don’t even understand that they have just shown, by their own reasoning, under their own worldview, and according to their own subjective, post-conception, arbitrary ideas about the application of human rights, that the Holocaust and abortion are morally, ethically and legally the same exact thing, even while insisting (because of their feelings) that they are not. This is the woeful state of modern debate.

Comments
Marfin:
AJ- re 139, why are you opposed to abortion on demand after the first trimester.
I explained this in detail in an earlier comment but I will provide the Coles notes version. I don't oppose abortion in the first trimester because the fetal nervous system is not sufficiently developed to be self-aware, conscious or perceive pain. Please note that I said that I don't oppose abortion, not that I condone it, endorse it or that I am devoted to it. Some here like to put words in my mouth, thoughts in my head and assign intentions to by opinions rather than address the actual issue. After the first trimester, there is enough brain development that we cannot be certain about these. As such, I give the benefit of the doubt to the fetus and that at that stage abortion should only be used when the health of the women is a serious risk.Armand Jacks
March 24, 2017
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SM provokes thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wljpYZ8wejA&ab_channel=StefanMolyneux&ytbChannel=Stefan%20Molyneuxkairosfocus
March 24, 2017
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Armand @139, Fair enough. Thanks.mike1962
March 24, 2017
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F/N: Let me lay it out:
It is not too hard to figure out that our civilisation is in deep trouble and is most likely headed for shipwreck. (And of course, that sort of concern is dismissed as “apocalyptic,” or neurotic pessimism that refuses to pause and smell the roses.) Plato’s Socrates spoke to this sort of situation, long since, in the ship of state parable in The Republic, Bk VI:
>>[Soc.] I perceive, I said, that you are vastly amused at having plunged me into such a hopeless discussion; but now hear the parable, and then you will be still more amused at the meagreness of my imagination: for the manner in which the best men are treated in their own States is so grievous that no single thing on earth is comparable to it; and therefore, if I am to plead their cause, I must have recourse to fiction, and put together a figure made up of many things, like the fabulous unions of goats and stags which are found in pictures. Imagine then a fleet or a ship in which there is a captain [–> often interpreted, ship’s owner] who is taller and stronger than any of the crew, but he is a little deaf and has a similar infirmity in sight, and his knowledge of navigation is not much better. [= The people own the community and in the mass are overwhelmingly strong, but are ill equipped on the whole to guide, guard and lead it] The sailors are quarrelling with one another about the steering – every one is of opinion that he has a right to steer [= selfish ambition to rule and dominate], though he has never learned the art of navigation and cannot tell who taught him or when he learned, and will further assert that it cannot be taught, and they are ready to cut in pieces any one who says the contrary. They throng about the captain, begging and praying him to commit the helm to them [–> kubernetes, steersman, from which both cybernetics and government come in English]; and if at any time they do not prevail, but others are preferred to them, they kill the others or throw them overboard [ = ruthless contest for domination of the community], and having first chained up the noble captain’s senses with drink or some narcotic drug [ = manipulation and befuddlement, cf. the parable of the cave], they mutiny and take possession of the ship and make free with the stores; thus, eating and drinking, they proceed on their voyage in such a manner as might be expected of them [–> Cf here Luke’s subtle case study in Ac 27]. Him who is their partisan and cleverly aids them in their plot for getting the ship out of the captain’s hands into their own whether by force or persuasion [–> Nihilistic will to power on the premise of might and manipulation making ‘right’ ‘truth’ ‘justice’ ‘rights’ etc], they compliment with the name of sailor, pilot, able seaman, and abuse the other sort of man, whom they call a good-for-nothing; but that the true pilot must pay attention to the year and seasons and sky and stars and winds, and whatever else belongs to his art, if he intends to be really qualified for the command of a ship, and that he must and will be the steerer, whether other people like or not-the possibility of this union of authority with the steerer’s art has never seriously entered into their thoughts or been made part of their calling. Now in vessels which are in a state of mutiny and by sailors who are mutineers, how will the true pilot be regarded? Will he not be called by them a prater, a star-gazer, a good-for-nothing? [Ad.] Of course, said Adeimantus. [Soc.] Then you will hardly need, I said, to hear the interpretation of the figure, which describes the true philosopher in his relation to the State[ --> here we see Plato's philosoppher-king emerging]; for you understand already. [Ad.] Certainly. [Soc.] Then suppose you now take this parable to the gentleman who is surprised at finding that philosophers have no honour in their cities; explain it to him and try to convince him that their having honour would be far more extraordinary. [Ad.] I will. [Soc.] Say to him, that, in deeming the best votaries of philosophy to be useless to the rest of the world, he is right; but also tell him to attribute their uselessness to the fault of those who will not use them, and not to themselves. The pilot should not humbly beg the sailors to be commanded by him –that is not the order of nature; neither are ‘the wise to go to the doors of the rich’ –the ingenious author of this saying told a lie –but the truth is, that, when a man is ill, whether he be rich or poor, to the physician he must go, and he who wants to be governed, to him who is able to govern. The ruler who is good for anything ought not to beg his subjects to be ruled by him [ --> down this road lies the modern solution: a sound, well informed people will seek sound leaders, who will not need to manipulate or bribe or worse, and such a ruler will in turn be checked by the soundness of the people, cf. US DoI, 1776]; although the present governors of mankind are of a different stamp; they may be justly compared to the mutinous sailors, and the true helmsmen to those who are called by them good-for-nothings and star-gazers. [Ad.] Precisely so, he said. [Soc] For these reasons, and among men like these, philosophy, the noblest pursuit of all, is not likely to be much esteemed by those of the opposite faction; not that the greatest and most lasting injury is done to her by her opponents, but by her own professing followers, the same of whom you suppose the accuser to say, that the greater number of them are arrant rogues, and the best are useless; in which opinion I agreed [--> even among the students of the sound state (here, political philosophy and likely history etc.), many are of unsound motivation and intent, so mere education is not enough, character transformation is critical]. [Ad.] Yes. [Soc.] And the reason why the good are useless has now been explained? [Ad.] True. [Soc.] Then shall we proceed to show that the corruption of the majority is also unavoidable, and that this is not to be laid to the charge of philosophy any more than the other? [Ad.] By all means. [Soc.] And let us ask and answer in turn, first going back to the description of the gentle and noble nature.[ -- > note the character issue] Truth, as you will remember, was his leader, whom he followed always and in all things [ --> The spirit of truth as a marker]; failing in this, he was an impostor, and had no part or lot in true philosophy [--> the spirit of truth is a marker, for good or ill] . . . >>
(There is more than an echo of this in Acts 27, a real world case study. [Luke, a physician, was an educated Greek with a taste for subtle references.] This blog post, on soundness in policy, will also help)
A warning from nearly 2400 years ago. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2017
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PS: Plato on the mutinous ship of state: https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/platos-socrates-on-navigating-the-ship-of-state/kairosfocus
March 24, 2017
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AJ & Pindi, do you understand what you are revealing about your mentality, level of reasoning and intent in the face of willful mass killing and outright holocaust -- 800+ millions and counting at a million more per week -- of innocent human life; tainting law, medicine, nursing and other health professions, media, education, government and even society as once did the slave trade? Do you understand what happens when something very wrong and destructive is embedded into a civilisation such that only a reformation can return us to sobriety and soundness? Has the example of Wilberforce sunk in? Are you aware of just how inherently unstable democratic government has been since the days of the Peloponnesian war and why a whole panoply of cultural buttresses is needed to stabilise it? As for marches of folly based on manipulation of the public, this micro-cosm should give you pause if your consciences are not so benumbed that you cannot understand clearly enough to think straight. I suggest as well that we all take time out to read and ponder Plato's parable of the ship of state in The Republic. I also recommend to one and all that they read Horne's To Lose A Battle on the years from 1919 - 1940, and vol I of Churchill's 6-volume work on WW2 on how Britain slept while the storm gathered force. Marches of folly to ruin are real, and are going on as we speak so we would be well advised to learn from lessons of history bought with blood and tears lest we pay the same price again, with interest. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2017
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AJ- re 139, why are you opposed to abortion on demand after the first trimester.Marfin
March 24, 2017
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Mike:
But tell me, are you in favor of allowing abortionists to slice apart a third trimester “fetus” just because the mother feels like it?
Even in jurisdictions where it is technically legal to have an abortion on demand in the third trimester, it is almost never done. But if you had of read any of my comments you will have noted that I am opposed to abortions on demand after the first trimester.Armand Jacks
March 23, 2017
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AJ, yes a march of folly for sure. I just did a bit of research and found that women who work in certain environments, including farms, operating rooms, dental offices, and hospital laboratories, have a higher risk of miscarriage. We should be subjecting women who work in those areas to random testing to ensure they are not pregnant, and if they are, they should be dealt with accordingly.Pindi
March 23, 2017
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Mike, No! Not because, 'she feels like it.' Yes, because it could endanger her life; Yes, because she is a rape victim; And yes, ecause she was religiously, or culturally put in an awkward position. Either way, it is hers, and her doctors decision: Get out of her life.rvb8
March 23, 2017
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I believe also that strenuous exercise, (running, cycling, football, gymnastics etc), also increases fetal damage, possibly miscarriage, (swimming is fine). Pregnant sports stars, farmers, and active wome generally, better be aware; "we're watching you!"rvb8
March 23, 2017
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Armand Jacks, Abortion was illegal for a long time. Humans survived just fine. But tell me, are you in favor of allowing abortionists to slice apart a third trimester "fetus" just because the mother feels like it?mike1962
March 23, 2017
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Pindi, and what about a car accident where a woman loses a fetus. Should the at-fault driver be charged with vehicular homicide? And what if the at-fault driver is the woman? Or her husband? Making abortion illegal is obviously a very slippery slope that will lead civilization over the cliff, to ruin on the rocks below. A March of folly if I ever saw one.Armand Jacks
March 23, 2017
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AJ, also, practices that are known to have a risk of causing a miscarriage or endangering a fetus, such as eating seafood when pregnant should have criminal sanctions. At best, its criminal negligence.Pindi
March 23, 2017
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Now that we have resolved that pro-life supporters do not believe that planning and killing an innocent defensless human being is a crime worthy of incarceration, let's move on to other legal matters. When abortion is made illegal, what charges should be brought against women who use the morning after pill? What charges should be brought against women who have an IUD? These only have one function. To kill a human life shortly after conception. The tricky part is that there is no practical way of proving that the death of any human being actually occurred, even though there is clear intent on the part of the woman to do this. Attempted murder or conspiracy to commit murder seem the most appropriate. But I am not sure. What about a man who has unprotected sex with a woman who has an IUD? Obviously if he is unaware, there would be no charges laid. But what if he was aware that she had an IUD. Surely he is complicit in the possible murder of a human being and should be charged accordingly.Armand Jacks
March 23, 2017
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WM:
You keep saying that abortion should be a last resort. Why should abortion be the last resort”?
For the same reason that any invasive procedure should be the last resort.Armand Jacks
March 22, 2017
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WJM, I'm afraid that when you write a statement such as this, "we're one of the most liberal countries in the world.", you do realise your opponents sit back gob smacked. 'One of the most liberal'? Really? You do actually know that all of the countries east of Greenland-Iceland, west of Poland, North of Africa (including Catholic Italy), and south of Finland are far more liberal than the US. They all have some form of Paid Parental Leave. (Not sure about Britain.) NZ, Australia, and Canada, are far more liberal than the US, and your statement, 'we already have all sorts of PRIVATE programs...' Yeah, charity from firms is a big backstop for the mostly poor women who become pregnant. Apple, and Uber, Coke, and Nike are well established in this area of social progress; they're everywhere. Wait a minute, you mean charity from Churches etc, do you not? If you do they are doing a, 'band aid, on a severed aorta job.' To come out with that statement about America's liberal credentials is only possible if your statrting position is conservatism, slightly to the right of Ghenghis Kan. No1 The US may have been liberal in the 60s, and 70s, but that liberality is standing on erroded feet. Don't use those 'snow flake' nut jobs as an example of liberality, they are the antithesis of liberality. Their desire to lock down debate, enforce their ideas, and generally intolerance of opposition, are actually the hall marks of staunch conservatisim, bordering upon attempted thought control.rvb8
March 22, 2017
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Steveh:
Are there any cicumstances where abortion should be considered first degree murder and punished accordingly? How about a young woman who plans to finish her education, start a career, marry, and then start a family a few years later, but becomes pregnant despite using contraceptives and aborts in the very early stages because she’s not ready to start a family yet? What should happen to her?
According to WM, forced sterilization and the inability to ever have a family.Armand Jacks
March 22, 2017
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WM:
AJ, this has already been answered. Equal right to life doesn’t logically entail equal charges/punishment for every homicide, no matter how many times you insist it does. It’s not true factually, and we’re not making that case no matter how many times you insist we should be.
I'm afraid that you will have to support this assertion. Can you provide me with some examples of charges less than first degree murder being laid against someone when there is incontrovertible evidence that the person planned the killing in advance, followed through with the plan, clearly understanding that the killing would end a life, when the individual killed had done nothing intentionally to harm the killer, when the motive for the killing was for largely selfish reasons?
That’s part of Trump’s platform and part of the reason I voted for him.
Good luck with that. And mean that sincerely, although I am skeptical that it will happen.
We already have all sorts of private programs that provide this service for those that wish to carry their pregancy to term – financial assistance, paid prenatal, etc. I think you have a rather distorted view of the US; we’re one of the most liberal countries in the world.
Yes, women employed in reasonably paid jobs often have insurance programs available to them that will cover much of this, some partially or fully paid by the employer. But 75% of abortions are performed on women who are poor or of a very low income bracket. I doubt very much that they can avail themselves of any of these programs. There best hope would be support from churches or other community groups.
Incorrect. You do not have to prove intent; you only have to show that you felt your life or safety was in jeopardy, which is certainly the case for high-risk pregnancies.
I didn't say that you had to prove intent. I said that you had to prove that you believe that the person you killed intended to do you harm. Any lawyer who's client honestly believed that the fetus intended to do her harm would not be using self defence as a defence. He/she would be using not guilty by reason of insanity. Do you honestly thing that the majority of women having an abortion believe that the fetus is out to intentionally cause her harm? If so, you have a very low opinion of the intelligence and sanity of women.
We can easily amend the law to provide a lower burden of self-defense for rape victims, since all pregnancies carry with them some risk. Being forcibly and unwillingly put even at that risk could be part of self-defense statutes.
And we could pass a law that green is now red. If the woman killed the rapist she could use the self defence out. If you amend the self defence law to include the killing of someone who never had any intention of doing you harm and who you never believed had an intention to do you harm, then it is not self defence.
Because categorizations of homicides, and categorizations of punishments, do not end at simply at the words “premeditated” and/or “innocent”. This is neither logically true nor factually the case in current law, where charges/punishments are enhanced or mitigated by all sorts of conditions.
I didn't say that premeditated or innocent were the only two options. There is manslaughter and second degree murder, but these require either no premeditation or insufficient evidence for premeditation. There is also criminal negligence causing death. but again, it doesn't apply when premeditation can be proven. There is self defence, but we have already talked about that. And there is not guilty by reason of insanity. There is no way that the majority of women having an abortion would qualify for this. So that leaves you with first degree murder.
I realize that it is good, perhaps even essential in your attempt to label us hypocrites and patriarchal zealots that just want to control women, but some of us do not want to make abortion a first-degree capital murder crime. There is no logical or factual reason why abortion cannot be ensconced in law as its own form of of homicide – prenatal infanticide – with its own set of charges and its own range of punishments.
There is nothing stopping us from enacting any law we see fit. But if we develop a new category of homicide that covers the premeditated murder of something that we consider to have an equal right to life as all other humans wirth a penalty that is little more than a slap on the wrist, then we are being hypocritical. I don't see how you can call it anything else. While we are at it, why don't we have a different category of homicide with a lighter penalty for the premeditated murder of anyone over seventy. This makes far more logical sense than what you are proposing. After all, killing someone in there seventies is taking away less quantity of their life than if you kill a baby. No matter how you look at it, if a fertilized egg has the same basic right to life as a baby or an adult, then planning to kill it and following through with the killing for selfish reasons is a premeditated murder.Armand Jacks
March 22, 2017
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Because categorizations of homicides, and categorizations of punishments, do not end at simply at the words “premeditated” and/or “innocent”. This is neither logically true nor factually the case in current law, where charges/punishments are enhanced or mitigated by all sorts of conditions.
Is this really what pro-life advocates mean when they talk about a '"holocaust" - the mass murder of the unborn?' Did mitigating circumstances apply to the Nazi holocaust too? Are there any cicumstances where abortion should be considered first degree murder and punished accordingly? How about a young woman who plans to finish her education, start a career, marry, and then start a family a few years later, but becomes pregnant despite using contraceptives and aborts in the very early stages because she's not ready to start a family yet? What should happen to her?steveh
March 22, 2017
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WJM re your 122, I am also still unclear why all human beings do not have the same protection of the criminal law. If a one day old fetus is human being with the same right to life as any other human being, why should its "brutal" and "diabolical" murder not be dealt with as any other murder? Or to put it in your words, why does an "equal right to life" not "logically entail equal charges/punishment"? Bear in mind we are not talking about different categories of homicidal. We are talking about the deliberate killing of a human being without any issue of self defence or other mitigating factor recognised by the law.Pindi
March 22, 2017
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WJM @116: where did I say that?Pindi
March 22, 2017
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KF:
AJ, you know both what happened in thread above and what is happening in the wider world, so the pretence just now that nothing is wrong (cf. RVB8 at 110) cuts no ice. KF
If you are going to criticize someone for something they have said, it is usually wise to make sure that they actually said it. Can you point to the comment where I said that nothing was wrong? I believe that there are all sorts of things in this world that are wrong, including the current situation with abortion.Armand Jacks
March 22, 2017
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AJ, you know both what happened in thread above and what is happening in the wider world, so the pretence just now that nothing is wrong (cf. RVB8 at 110) cuts no ice. KFkairosfocus
March 22, 2017
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AJ said:
If the reason for making abortion illegal is that you believe that human life has the same right to life from conception to natural death, then the only charge and penalty that acknowledges this right to life of the fetus is first degree murder and life in prison.
AJ, this has already been answered. Equal right to life doesn't logically entail equal charges/punishment for every homicide, no matter how many times you insist it does. It's not true factually, and we're not making that case no matter how many times you insist we should be.
A country that does not mandate paid maternity leave for any women.
That's part of Trump's platform and part of the reason I voted for him.
Do you really think that your government would approve to pay women who have an unplanned pregnancy? The puritanical streak is still too strong in the US for that.
We already have all sorts of private programs that provide this service for those that wish to carry their pregancy to term - financial assistance, paid prenatal, etc. I think you have a rather distorted view of the US; we're one of the most liberal countries in the world.
This is not consistent with your assertion that the right to life starts at conception. Self defence can only be used as a defence when you honestly believe that the person you kill intends to do you physical harm.
Incorrect. You do not have to prove intent; you only have to show that you felt your life or safety was in jeopardy, which is certainly the case for high-risk pregnancies. The self-defense laws are just that - laws. We can easily amend the law to provide a lower burden of self-defense for rape victims, since all pregnancies carry with them some risk. Being forcibly and unwillingly put even at that risk could be part of self-defense statutes.
But I simply can’t see how you can have two different penalties for the premeditated killing of an innocent person.
Because categorizations of homicides, and categorizations of punishments, do not end at simply at the words "premeditated" and/or "innocent". This is neither logically true nor factually the case in current law, where charges/punishments are enhanced or mitigated by all sorts of conditions. I realize that it is good, perhaps even essential in your attempt to label us hypocrites and patriarchal zealots that just want to control women, but some of us do not want to make abortion a first-degree capital murder crime. There is no logical or factual reason why abortion cannot be ensconced in law as its own form of of homicide - prenatal infanticide - with its own set of charges and its own range of punishments. There is nothing about that which logically diminishes the fetus' right to life. Your insistence that it does is irrational. The goal here is to set civilization back on the pro-life course in the best, most helpful way possible, not to wreck lives and hold a hammer over the head of women.William J Murray
March 22, 2017
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WM:
Let’s look at another social ill and follow your logic. We have many local and nationwide social media campaigns that attempt to (1) educate people about drunk driving, (2) establish a narrative that it is not socially acceptable, (3) show the dire consequences of drunk driving, (4) provide assistance to those who need a ride if they are inebriated. Should we also not punish those who still insist on drunk driving?
We do. In Canada, for your first offence your licence is suspended for a minimum of one year followed by an interlock device when your licence is returned. Not to mention the fact that your insurance rates go through the roof. Repeat offences result in jail time. If you kill someone while drunk driving, you are charged with manslaughter or criminal negligence causing death. In other words, you are charged and sentenced according to the consequence of the crime (death) and your intentions (was it premeditated, accidental, negligent, etc.). If the reason for making abortion illegal is that you believe that human life has the same right to life from conception to natural death, then the only charge and penalty that acknowledges this right to life of the fetus is first degree murder and life in prison. The same as we would apply to anyone who plans and kills any human from one minute of age until just before death by natural causes.
This is why I suggested that along with criminalizing most abortions, there should also be laws that (1) protect the woman’s job through birth and recovery, and (2) eliminate any financial hardship of a pregnancy that is going to end up with the child being adopted.
I would certainly support your options 1 and 2. In fact, I mentioned them as part of the approach I suggested. This being said, what chance do you see this happening in the US. A country that does not mandate paid maternity leave for any women. Do you really think that your government would approve to pay women who have an unplanned pregnancy? The puritanical streak is still too strong in the US for that.
I also agree that pregnancies with risks above a certain threshold or are the result of rape should be considered a “self-defense” exemption under an extended “self-defense” law.
This is not consistent with your assertion that the right to life starts at conception. Self defence can only be used as a defence when you honestly believe that the person you kill intends to do you physical harm. Surely an innocent fetus does not fall into this category, regardless of whether it was the result of failed contraceptive or a rape. The fetus, surely, is still an innocent life.
As I also said above, I would be in favor of a first-time offense of loss of reproductive rights for the woman and loss of medical license for the abortion performer and probation, with even stiffer penalties for non-licensed abortion providers.
Aside from the Orwellian nature of this penalty for the woman, you still have not explained how the premeditated killing of a fetus is different than the premeditated killing of a baby or an adult, given your assertion that the fetus has the same right to life as a baby. I am not trying to be pig-headed on this issue. But I simply can't see how you can have two different penalties for the premeditated killing of an innocent person. We do not have different penalties for the premeditated killing of any innocent human from birth to natural death, how is the premeditated killing of a fetus any different?Armand Jacks
March 22, 2017
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KF:
F/N: Folks, ask yourself why Wilberforce did not seek indictments against slave traders on charges of murder (where the slave trade was associated with a holocaust level death toll and was based on kidnapping). Then compare how those who have popped up to play objector rhetorical games have responded to this key exemplar of a modern reformation movement.
But I will be willing to bet that he expected charges to be laid and jail time given to those participating in the slave trade after it was abolished. So his example is totally irrelevant with the refusal to admit that women who have abortions after it is made illegal should be charged with murder and receive the same penalties if they planned and executed the murder of a baby, an adult or an old person. I admit that my example of rounding up women who had abortions when it was legal was an extreme, but it is not without precedent.Armand Jacks
March 22, 2017
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KF:
First distractive red herrings led away from the track of inconvenient truth, here, cf. WJM’s focus in the OP. The red herring is dragged away to a forest of strawmen duly set up and soaked in ad hominems. Then, incendiary rhetoric is used to set them alight, clouding, confusing, polarising and poisoning the atmosphere. Thus, frustrating serious and sober discussion.
Now, this is just blithering nonsense. I have not made a single criticism of Christians. I have presented a logical and concrete course of action. I have provided real-world examples of how this approach has significantly reduced unwanted pregnancies and abortions. I have pointed out the inconsistency between claiming that a fertilized egg has the same right to life as a baby, adult or old person, and the refusal to examine the implications of this necessitating charging women with homicide if they have an abortion. I have pointed out that the world today and throughout history more closely resembles what we would expect if there was no world level IS to ground OUGHT than one in which IS was grounded by OUGHT. If you were not including me in this criticism then I apologize. But might I suggest that you be more specific in your criticisms rather than lump everyone who disagrees with you into the same pot. As you can see, Seversky and I disagree on when the right to life begins, but on many other things, we agree.Armand Jacks
March 22, 2017
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CR said:
Then what roots this being that provides a root for a world? Surely, something that can root an entire world needs something with adequate causal capability to account for it. Right?
There are three possible models for the origin of causation: (1) Infinite Regress; (2) Effects without cause (a beginning from nothing); and (3) Causal origination from a fundamental uncaused cause. The very nature of #3 is that it doesn't need to be causally accounted for because it is the ultimate origin of causation.
Deciding to just “give up” the need of an adequate causal capacity in the case of this world rooting being is arbitrary.
This is a category error. We're talking about fundamental causal system premises. The causal system is either a system of infinite regress; or it started from nothing - no cause, just an effect; or it began from an uncaused cause. The third option isn't "giving up" or 'stopping" at an arbitrary point; it premises a logically necessary condition of existence in order to avoid (1) infinite regress and (2) an uncaused effect (something from nothing). In other words, unless you accept infinite regress or uncaused effects (something from nothing), you are left with an uncaused cause, a fundamental, uncaused root of existence and the causal chain. It's not arbitrary; it's a logically necessary premise that accounts for the causal chain of existence without resorting to infinite regress or something from nothing scenarios.William J Murray
March 22, 2017
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@KF
CR, simply false. I pointed out how the logic of being and non-being points to the need for a root-level reality of adequate causal capability to account for a world, the issue is which candidate accounts for a world in which moral government is real. KF
Then what roots this being that provides a root for a world? Surely, something that can root an entire world needs something with adequate causal capability to account for it. Right? Deciding to just "give up" the need of an adequate causal capacity in the case of this world rooting being is arbitrary.critical rationalist
March 22, 2017
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