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Which Part of Evolutionary Theory is Self-Evidently Wrong?

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UD’s dear commenter Elizabeth Liddle (whom I greatly admire for her respectful dissent from our dissent from evolutionary orthodoxy) asks the question in the title of my post.

Upon hearing this challenge my first reaction was, Where to begin? I’ll begin with two self-evidently wrong propositions of evolutionary theory.

1) Gradualism. Attempts to cram the fossil evidence into the gradualistic model display transparent desperation to make the evidence fit the theory. The fossil record testifies consistently and persuasively to three things: stasis, abrupt extinction, and abrupt appearance of new functional life forms. In addition, common sense argues that there is no gradualistic pathway for almost any biologically complex and functionally integrated system. A simple example is the avian lung. There is no conceivably logical gradualistic pathway from a reptilian bellows lung to an avian circulatory lung, because the intermediates would immediately die of asphyxiation.

Furthermore, attempts by Darwinists to explain away this kind of obvious problem strike ID folks — we consider ourselves, by the way, to be the real “free thinkers” concerning origins — as desperate attempts motivated by a desire to defend a theory in evidential and logical crisis.

2) The biologically creative evolutionary power of stochastic events filtered by natural selection.

This proposition is dead-simply, obviously, and empirically unreasonable (except in isolated pathological instances such as bacterial antibiotic resistance, in which case the probabilistic resources are available to allow informational degradation to provide a temporary survival advantage). Natural selection is irrelevant. Throwing out failed experiments does nothing to increase the creative power of random events. Simple combinatorial mathematics render the stochastic proposition completely unreasonable.

The two examples I’ve provided I find to be self-evidently wrong.

Comments
My explanation for why human embryos look like fish embryos is ... see above.Mung
July 28, 2011
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My explanation for why vertebrate embryos look similar is that, well, they are all vertebrate embryos. duhMung
July 28, 2011
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My explanation for why adult humans are not fish is that human embryos are not fish embryos.Mung
July 28, 2011
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My explanation for why adult humans do not have gill slits is that human embryos do not have gill slits.Mung
July 28, 2011
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Matzke "If you have a better explanation, though, then post it." Ah! the old "even though what I am asserting is false, and even though I know that it is false, and even though you know that I know that it is false, I still get to assert it until you supply me a 'better' ['better' being determined by me] explanation."Ilion
July 27, 2011
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Well Nick, I have to congratulate you. You’ve managed to both lie and tell the truth in a single statement. It’s like saying the moon is a sphere made of green cheese. Get lost you hack.
LOL -- by your logic, we can't call the human embryonic tail a tail, either, since it doesn't end up as one in the human adult. The term "gill slit" is a fairly standard one, look it up on Google Scholar. "Pharyngeal arch" and "pharyngeal pouch" are more technical terms for the same structures. Typically, you don't get called "hack" for standard use of standard terms...however, the reverse, on the other hand... Anyway, it doesn't matter what you call them, either way they are a complex, quite specific shared character between e.g. mammals and fishes, and the only decent explanation anyone has proposed is common ancestry from fishlike ancestors. If you have a better explanation, though, then post it.NickMatzke_UD
July 26, 2011
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Nick Matzke:
Hi Liz — yeah, I think what you say here is correct. E.g. the gill slits in human embryos aren’t actual functioning gills...
Well Nick, I have to congratulate you. You've managed to both lie and tell the truth in a single statement. It's like saying the moon is a sphere made of green cheese. Get lost you hack.Mung
July 26, 2011
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Hi Liz -- yeah, I think what you say here is correct. E.g. the gill slits in human embryos aren't actual functioning gills, the tail isn't a full-on swimming tail, etc. But the structures are similar to those that develop into functioning gills & tails in fishes. (Not to help them out, but creationists who are on the ball could just point out that the embryological argument is just the generic homology argument for common ancestry, with the homologies in this case being morphological characters of the embryo. This would be right. They could then dismiss it all with "homology is explained by a common designer". Of course, this would beg the question of why a common designer would bother to do this...NickMatzke_UD
July 26, 2011
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Mung:
Well Elizabeth, the first question that comes to mind is how do adult features of organisms find their way back into the embryonic stage such that they might be passed on as part of the embryonic stages in future descendants. Sounds lamarckian to me.
Well, I'm no embryologist, but let's take the whale, which is thought to have descended from a four limbed land-animal. However, whales only have fore limbs, and only vestigial, if any, hind-limbs. So the hypothesis would be that regulator genes that governs the expression of hind-leg-making genes in the four legged ancestor during development mutated so that hind-leg-making was ceased earlier and earlier in the developmental trajectory, to the point where they only appeared briefly before being reabsorbed. So I can see what Nick is saying I think - my simplistic answer was that adult artiodactyls have hindlimbs but those are found only briefly in the embryological development of the whale. Thus the whale embryo has features that its ancestor had, but which it will lose by the time it reaches adulthood. But you could equally say, I guess, as Nick did, that what we see in the whale embryo is what the artiodactyl looked like at the same stage of development, not as an adult. If so, we are not actually in disagreement - we would agree that the whale embryo shows, during development what, in its ancestor, became a hindlimb, but does not, in the modern whale.
Afiak, there is no known mechanism by which such a thing might occur and no evidence that it actually does occur.
Well I hope I have clarified what I meant.Elizabeth Liddle
July 26, 2011
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Well Elizabeth, the first question that comes to mind is how do adult features of organisms find their way back into the embryonic stage such that they might be passed on as part of the embryonic stages in future descendants. Sounds lamarckian to me. Afiak, there is no known mechanism by which such a thing might occur and no evidence that it actually does occur.Mung
July 26, 2011
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Nick? Could you explain why you think my answer is incorrect?Elizabeth Liddle
July 26, 2011
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Mung:
So human embryos share features of adult organisms in our evolutionary past?
Elizabetht Liddle:
Yes, they do.
Nick Matzke:
No, modern human embryos share embryonic structures with the modern embryos of fish etc.
Too funny. Prothero:
Whether they develop into fish, amphibians, or humans, all vertebrate embryos start out with a long tail, well-developed gill slits, and many other fishlike features. ... If you had any doubts that you once had ancestors with fish-like gills and a tail..
Features of adult fish? Sure seems like what he's saying. What else does "fish-like" mean? If he means fish-embryo-like why doesn't he say so?Mung
July 26, 2011
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I have no idea what you’re going on about. I thought the drawings in Prothero’s book were von Baer’s.
Really? That seems unlikely, Haeckel's embryo drawings are *extremely* well known to all sides of the creation/evolution issue. But whatever, it's not important. I was mostly reacting against your snarky comments, which were basically "I just got this book, it's by a GEOLOGIST who dares talk a little about embryology omg omg!" It seemed as though you were implying he got something wrong about the embryology, otherwise, what basis would that stuff give you for dismissing the author?
They are a bit dated though aren’t they? 1910? Seriously?
Dude. He's showing them specifically because they are classic old illustrations which have been abused too often by creationists. He is pushing back. The drawings are actually older, the first version of them was 1876 or something. Haeckel actually produced many versions of the figure and the later ones were better, but for some reason an early one got into the English-language Romanes 1910 and was spread everywhere from there. Here's modern electron microscope photos of the same things FYI: http://ncse.com/files/images/figure08.jpg http://ncse.com/files/images/figure09.jpg http://ncse.com/files/images/figure10.preview.jpg Source: http://ncse.com/creationism/analysis/icon-4-haeckels-embryos
lol. So human embryos share features of adult organisms in our evolutionary past?
No, modern human embryos share embryonic structures with the modern embryos of fish etc. In the fishes, these structures develop directly into what they look like in the embryo, i.e. gills and a tail. But humans have neither gills nor tail, yet we have these structures as embryos. As Prothero asks, if not common ancestry, then why?NickMatzke_UD
July 26, 2011
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Mung:
So human embryos share features of adult organisms in our evolutionary past?
Yes, they do. So do many embryos. Sometimes archaic features appear and are then reabsorbed.
How is that not just a re-statement that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny?
I think the original hypothesis was that development took the same trajectory as evolution, which isn't necessarily true (and there's no reason to expect it to).
And this is supposed to show that we descended from those ancestors by descent with modification?
It's certainly strongly supportive, and the more we find out about the role that regulatory sequences play in development, and understand how small modification to a regulatory sequence can make large differences to the adult phenotype, the more supportive it is.Elizabeth Liddle
July 26, 2011
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Yes, nick. I did read it. I just didn't comment on it.
If you had any doubts that you once had ancestors with fish-like gills and a tail, Figure 4.11 shows what you looked like five weeks after fertilization. Why did you have pharyngeal pouches (predecessors of gills) and a tail if you had not descended from ancestors with those features?
lol. So human embryos share features of adult organisms in our evolutionary past? How is that not just a re-statement that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny? And this is supposed to show that we descended from those ancestors by descent with modification? I'll look for the argument, but just asking a question does not an argument make. You do realize don't you, that the text I quoted above is not an argument. No reason is given. Oh, look at this picture, it should remove all doubt that you descended from fish is not an argument. I've already anticipated your response. Go ahead. Say it.Mung
July 25, 2011
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Nick Matzke:
Wow. You are attempting to dismiss Prothero’s book, just because he has Haeckel’s embryo diagram in there, and because you heard some beknighted ID propaganda somewhere about how Haeckel’s embryos were fraud, fraud, fraud?
I have no idea what you're going on about. I thought the drawings in Prothero's book were von Baer's. They are a bit dated though aren't they? 1910? Seriously? Did I mention Haeckel? Pretty sure I didn't. I actually have a lot of respect for Haeckel. He was incredible. Do you know he did some 4000 drawings of one single organism? I think he gets a bad rap for one single issue and deserves much greater recognition. http://icarusfilms.com/new2004/pro.html cheersMung
July 25, 2011
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Did you realize you pasted in the same block of text twice? Was that just to make it look like a whole lotta sciencey stuff?
Oops. I think the image caption is the same as the text caption, they were both copied when I hit control-C. Apologies. Now, would someone like to actually try to explain why "evolutionary theory is self-evidently wrong" because of the obvious unevolvability of bird lungs? That was the original claim that was being made. I posted actual scientific papers that actually give an explanation of how the weird "circular breathing" of birds could evolve. These directly refute the idea that the evolution of the bird lung is obviously impossible because it would take a sudden appearance of holes and flow-through breathing in the lung, or that it is obviously impossible because it would take a fatal hole in the diaphram. These arguments turn out to be based on ignorance of comparative anatomy and phylogeny of birds, dinosaurs, and crocodiles. Pointing out that the explanation is a hypothesis, or proclaiming "I ain't gonna believe nuthin' til you give me every single mutation over millions of years", are not defenses of the original claim that "evolutionary theory is self-evidently wrong" because of bird lungs. They are goalpost-moving and just cheap attempts at avoiding the science which you didn't know about before you opened your big mouth to shout to the world that evolution must be wrong because of bird lungs. (And, we saw how poorly the "Infinite detail is required before I will accept evolution" tactic worked in the Dover trial. It's an insane standard that no one requires for any scientific explanation. It's actually a desperate last-ditch argument of creationists, which they throw out when they can think of nothing else with which to counter the science.)NickMatzke_UD
July 25, 2011
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PS When you get to the bit about insects, read this: http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/12/no-longer-sleeping-in-seattle.htmlNickMatzke_UD
July 25, 2011
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Hi Nick! My copy of Prothero’s came in. A lovely book. I look forward to reading it. However, just thumbing through, I came across some drawings of embryos on page 110. Is Prothero an embryologist? A developmental biologist? Trained in comparative anatomy? No? He’s a GEOLOGIST!?
You could read the book or use google to figure these things out, but I'll just tell you: The man is a very well-known and well-published vertebrate paleontologist. Specifically, he's an expert on fossil mammals, more specifically artiodactyls I believe. All paleontologists are also geologists, many work in geology departments.
The text for the figure on page 110 (fig 4.10) reads as follows:
The evidence from embryology. An embryologist Karl Ernst von Baer pointed out in the 1830s, long before Darwin published his ideas about evolution, all vertebrates start out with a very fish-like body plan early in embryology, including the predecessors of gills and a long tail. As they develop, many lose their fish-like features on their way to becoming reptiles, birds and mammals. (From Romanes 1910)
Isn’t Prothero perhaps moving a bit beyond what he is competent to address?
All vertebrate paleontologists have to know a huge amount of vertebrate anatomy and osteology. This includes developmental biology.
how much of this book should I ignore due to the simple fact that the author doesn’t know enough to know better?
Wow. You are attempting to dismiss Prothero's book, just because he has Haeckel's embryo diagram in there, and because you heard some beknighted ID propaganda somewhere about how Haeckel's embryos were fraud, fraud, fraud? Try *reading* those freakin' pages. Here, I'll even paste it in:
Embryology Even before Darwin, the studies of embryos began to provide important evidence for evolution. In the 1830s, the great German embryologist Karl Ernst von Baer documented that the embryos of all vertebrates show a common pattern (fig. 4.10). Whether they develop into fish, amphibians, or humans, all vertebrate embryos start out with a long tail, well-developed gill slits, and many other fishlike features. In adult fish, the tail and gills develop further, but in humans, they are lost during further development. Von Baer was simply trying to document how embryos developed, not provide evidence of evolution, which was not even proposed as an idea yet. Darwin used this evidence in On the Origin of Species, and embryology soon developed into one of the growth fields of evolutionary biology. One of the foremost advocates of evolution was the flamboyant German embryologist Ernst Haeckel. He not only promoted Darwinism in Germany, but he went so far as to argue that we could see all details of evolutionary history in embryos and reconstruct ancestors from embryonic stages of living animals. His most famous slogan, the "biogenetic law," was "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." This is simply a fancy way of saying embryonic development ("ontogeny") repeats ("recapitulates") evolutionary history ("phylogeny"). To the limited extent that von Baer had shown 40 years earlier, this is true. But embryos also have many unique features (yolk sac, allantois, amniotic membranes, umbilical cords) that have nothing to do with the evolutionary past and are adaptations to their developmental environment. Thus it is dangerous to overextend the evolutionary implications of the stages in an embryo, but they are useful guides nonetheless. Creationists, such as Jonathan Wells (2000), in their eternal effort to mislead the uninitiated and miss the forest for the trees, will crow about how the biogenetic law has been discredited. But Haeckel's overenthusiasm does not negate the careful embryological work of von Baer that shows that many features of our past evolutionary stages are Preserved in our embryos. Wells, in particular, nags about how some of Haeckel's original diagrams had errors and oversimplifications, but this does not change the overall fact that the sequence of all vertebrate embryos show the same patterns in the early stages, and all of them go through a "fishlike" stage with pharyngeal pouches (which become the gill slits in fishes and amphibians) and a long fishlike tail, then some develop into fishes and amphibians and others lose these features and develop into reptiles, birds, and mammals. Wells' deceptive approach is nicely debunked by Gishtick ( http://www.ncseweb.orglicons/icon4haeckel.html [now: http://ncse.com/creationism/analysis/icon-4-haeckels-embryos -- NJM] ). If you had any doubts that you once had ancestors with fish-like gills and a tail, Figure 4.11 shows what you looked like five weeks after fertilization. Why did you have pharyngeal pouches (predecessors of gills) and a tail if you had not descended from ancestors with those features?
Couldn't be bothered to read it, though, could you?
Should I just stick with the fossil evidence?
If you like. That's most of the book, anyway.NickMatzke_UD
July 25, 2011
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I've seen very little response to the objections raised so far against evolutionary theory. Perhaps a recap is in order? Let me add one of Elizabeth's personal favorites. Polymorphisms. Without which we would apparently not have the neutral theory. Or is that one not obvious enough? How obvious does it need to be?Mung
July 25, 2011
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Therefore, all known GA evolution is parameterized, not open-ended. That is, more of the information came from the parameters set up for the evolution than from the evolution itself. Certainly, *some* of the solution came from the GA, but the majority of it is in the parameters that the programmers specify to evolve.
Nice work johnnyb. The GA employs a search algorithm. If the solution is not encoded into the search space then the GA has no hope of finding it. How did the solution get included in the search space? GA's don't just stumble on solutions that don't actually exist. Nor do living creatures just stumble on eyes, and wings, and consciousness. Where do these "solutions" come from? GA's do not use a blind search, they employ an assisted search. Who or what assists organisms to find an eye, or a wing, or a brain, in the search space, and how is that at all analogous to the way a GA is assisted in finding a solution? The issue of the parameters was discussed at length in the FEA and Darwinian Computer Simulations thread. And ignored. Surprise.Mung
July 25, 2011
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PS. I just remembered, I paraphrased Philip Johnson in that ready-made answer. I didn't bother highlighting that to the original recipient, but that should be highlighted here.Chris Doyle
July 25, 2011
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Lizzie asks: "So Chris: what is your position on common descent? Do you think the evidence supports it?" Blue Peter time. Here's one (an answer) I did earlier (for someone else, far less capable than you, Lizzie, I must say): Identifying a pattern of relationship linking all living creatures does not imply a necessary cause, such as common ancestry, for that pattern. Remember, Darwin did not invent classification: the creationist Linnaeus did a century earlier. Linnaeus included humans amongst the primates. That is because classification is consistent with common design. So what we need is evidence to support common ancestry as a true explanation of this pattern. Fossils of common ancestors and transitional species would be a start. Do you know of any, Lizzie? Limitless artificial selection that breaks the boundaries of genetic homeostasis would need to be demonstrated too. Do you know of such an experiment, Lizzie? And it goes without saying that we should never, ever find “a peculiar chunk of DNA in the genomes of eight animals - the mouse, rat, bushbaby, little brown bat, tenrec, opossum, anole lizard and African clawed frog - but not in 25 others, including humans, elephants, chickens and fish.” Oops. Even if there was any evidence to support the common ancestry hypothesis, that does not mean that common ancestry arose as a result of natural selection acting upon random mutations. Common ancestry could be the result of front-loaded design or even guided evolution. So that means, evolutionists also need evidence (and computer simulations cannot be substituted for this evidence) that natural selection acting upon random mutations can transform a single-celled common ancestor into a human being.Chris Doyle
July 25, 2011
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Elizabeth - The problem is that for evolution to be open-ended (that is, such that the GA is not parameterized to the problem domain), it has to be able to evolve on a Turing-complete system, because open-ended solutions require open-ended looping structures. The only GA I am aware of that using a Turing-complete system is Avida. No one has ever evolved an Avida organism to use an open-ended loop as part of the problem-solving process. Therefore, all known GA evolution is parameterized, not open-ended. That is, more of the information came from the parameters set up for the evolution than from the evolution itself. Certainly, *some* of the solution came from the GA, but the majority of it is in the parameters that the programmers specify to evolve. In fact, there is one open-ended loop in an Avida organism - the replication loop. And it was designed, not evolved.johnnyb
July 24, 2011
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Speaking for myself, I didn’t bow out so much as give up in exasperation!
And now you're rewriting history. Your last post in that thread:
Now I must get some much needed sleep – and I’m away for a little break tomorrow so I may not be commenting here for a while. ;)
Mung
July 24, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
And, as Dr Bot has indicated, those solutions can be novel, ingenious, and unanticipated by the designer of the GA.
Which from me rates a big so what. Let me refresh your memories:
Not an issue in dispute. What is in dispute is how analogous is a GA to biological evolution. What aspects of a GA are designed, and which aspects are not. The more aspects of a GA that are designed, and the closer the analogy to biological evolution, the stronger the case that biological evolution is designed. Lizzie was only allowing for design at two points in a GA, I claimed there were more, and that what was being left out was a significant aspect of the function of a GA.
HERE Now DrBot was talking about what a GA could do (as you just did), and as I pointed out to him (and as I now point out to you), what I consider worth arguing over is not what a GA can do but rather what it takes to get a GA to do what it does. GA's are designed to do what they do. If you really want to impress me you'll pick a GA for us to toy with and we'll mess around with it and see how well it does if we change it's design. DrBot:
I’m not discussing evolutionary theory modelling in the main, I’m discussing how Genetic Algorithms work from an engineering perspective …
Mung:
And I’m discussing what it takes to get a GA to work in the first place. As in, how much design is involved, and where, and why. Because if we don’t get that right, if we try to compare GA’s to biological evolution, or if we think GA’s model evolution, we’ll be fooling ourselves.
HERE And what you both apparently willfully ignore as if it's completely irrelevant to your claims is that while a GA may in fact come up with say, a novel antenna configuration not foreseen by the creator of the GA, that same GA is not going to come up with a novel circuit on an FPGA.Mung
July 24, 2011
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It seems to me that there are two separable issues here...
You missed one. Modern evolutionary theory is incoherent.Mung
July 24, 2011
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9YElizabeth Liddle
July 24, 2011
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BTW, your link appears to be to a post of yours in which you claim Dr Bot and I bow out.
Speaking foir myself, I didn't bow out so much as give up in exasperation! I don't like being 'lawyered' either , you reach a point where you realize that the person you are arguing with has no interest in actually understanding, just in arguing over anything that can possibly be argued over - and now I'm remembering that Monty Python sketch about booking an appointment for an argument ;) I guess I should have heeded the warning - 'Don't feed the trolls!' :)DrBot
July 24, 2011
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Oops, comments closed. Oh well: Here is my argument: I am assuming minimally complex pre-existing self-replicators (Darwinian evolutionary theory does not explain the origins of the first self replication). The counterpart to this in a GA are the self-replicating virtual organisms whose only function is to self-replicate, at the beginning of a GA run. I am also assuming a "fitness landscape" - by which I mean that the real organisms exist in an environment that poses "problems" for survival - scarce resources, predators, problems with finding a mate, whatever. Any "solution" to these "problems" will, by definition, increase survival chances. The counterpart to this in a GA is the fitness landscape provided by the GA designer. Typically, as the designer wants a particular problem of her own solved, the problems she confronts her population with - the "environment" they have to "survive to breed" in, are ones she happens to want a solution to. In contrast, no-one apart from the critter itself, in a real environment, is interested in the solution - and the critters themselves just want it solved, at least if they are aware enough to get a kick out of life and sex. But that's an peripheral difference. It would be possible to set up a randomly generated, and, indeed randomly changing "fitness landscape" in which the virtual critters had to survive. In which case the solutions the critters "found" would be to un-designed problems. But, as I said, that's peripheral. The really important thing about a GA is that the critters themselves embody solutions to the problems of surviving in the environment provided. That that in some cases involves solving a math problem is no more important than the fact that in reality, the surviving might involve camouflage or a new digestive enzyme. It's not the environment solves the problem - the environment aka GA designer simply poses it. The critters solve it. And, as Dr Bot has indicated, those solutions can be novel, ingenious, and unanticipated by the designer of the GA.Elizabeth Liddle
July 24, 2011
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