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William Munny: Ubermensch

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We have art for the same reason we put windows in houses. We need to see outside. Just as a window allows us to see the physical world outside of the narrow confines of the walls surrounding us, art allows us to see out into the world of ideas, and sometimes the view is appalling. I was reminded of this a few days ago when a friend told me he had not watched more than one episode of Breaking Bad because the squalor and violence depicted was unbearably depressing. He said he finally grasped why the program might be worth watching further when he read my post, Walter White: Consequentialist. Yes, the squalor and violence in that series were awful, but they served the artist’s purpose, which was to examine an ordinary man’s spiral into ever-increasing evil once he decided the end could justify the means.

Great art is not always beautiful. When an artist examines an ugly idea, his art will reflect that ugliness. Consider the movie Unforgiven, Clint Eastwood’s best film. If you like your existential nihilism served especially bleak and full of despair, you can hardly do better than this. In a small Wyoming town two cowboys disfigure a young prostitute. Denied justice by the local sheriff, “Little Bill” Daggett, the residents of the brothel pool their money and offer a reward for the death of the cowboys. William Munny is an aging gunfighter turned Kansas farmer, who once killed women and children during a train robbery. Munny, his friend Ned, and the “Kid” travel to Wyoming, kill the cowboys, and collect the reward. As he is about to return home, Munny learns Little Bill has captured Ned and tortured him to death. Munny goes back into town where Ned’s body is on display outside the saloon. This enrages Munny, and he goes in and kills the saloon keeper, Little Bill and several of his deputies. Munny walks out, warns the townspeople to give Ned a proper burial, and the movie ends as he rides off into the rainy night.

Two lines of dialogue and the epilogue capture perfectly the nihilism at the heart of the film. In the final scene Munny is standing over a wounded Little Bill Daggett about to administer the coup de grâce. Daggett says, “I don’t deserve this . . . to die like this.” Munny replies, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it,” and shoots him dead.  A few minutes later at the end of the film a text epilogue scrolls across the screen.  It says that Munny moved away from Kansas, “some said to San Francisco, where it was rumored he prospered in dry goods.”

Munny is a Nietzschen “ubermensch,” the nihilist superman. Deserving has nothing to do with it indeed, because justice is an illusion, part of the outdated “slave morality” that does not bind him. God is dead. There is no good. There is no evil. There are only the strong and the weak, and at that moment Munny has the gun, and Daggett is disarmed, wounded and lying on the floor. Munny has killed women and children. He has just murdered an unarmed saloonkeeper and several deputies in a fit of pique. Now he’s going to murder Daggett in cold blood. And none of these things will prevent him from moving to San Francisco where he will prosper in dry goods.

Our materialist friends say that “good” and “evil” are entirely subjective concepts. Frequent commenter Pro Hac Vice puts it this way:

I don’t believe “bad” is an objective statement, any more than “tasty” is. “It is tasty” is a subjective statement. So is “it is bad,” if you start from the assumption that “bad” is a subjective quality.

When I say Brussels sprouts are tasty, I mean nothing more than that I prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. It is an entirely subjective statement. PHV is right about that. He might say that Brussels sprouts are “bad,” and if he did he would not be heaping moral opprobrium on Brussels sprouts. He would merely be saying that he does not prefer the taste of Brussels sprouts. Is there any standard by which we could somehow arbitrate between my view of Brussels sprouts and PHV’s view to determine once and for all if they are good or bad? Of course not. There is no standard to judge between subjective preferences.

Will Munny murdered women and children for personal gain. He murdered two cowboys for the reward money. He killed an unarmed saloonkeeper. He murdered several deputies, and in the end he murdered Bill Daggett. Let’s call all of these things “Munny’s Crimes.”

I am certain PHV would say that Munny’s Crimes are “bad.” I am equally certain that he would say that when he asserts that Munny’s Crimes are “bad,” he is using the word “bad” in the same way he used it when he referred to Brussels sprouts. In other words, all he is saying is that he personally, for whatever reason, does not prefer to commit Munny’s Crimes. An inevitable logical corollary to PHV’s position is that if someone else (let’s call him “Frank”) were to say that Munny’s Crimes were good, PHV could say that he personally disagrees with Frank. He might even say he strongly disagrees with Frank. But he cannot logically say that some standard exists to arbitrate between his view on the matter and Frank’s view. After all, whether Munny’s Crimes were good or bad is, under PHV’s rules of analysis, nothing more than an expression of personal preference, ultimately no different from whether to eat Brussels sprouts or leave them on the plate.

Now someone might say PHV’s conclusions are illogical, but they would be mistaken. PHV’s conclusions follow from his premises like night follows day. Let us examine his argument:

1. Particles in motion are all that exist or ever have existed.

2. This means there is no God.

3. Since God does not exist, transcendent ethical norms are not possible.

4. It follows that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are not saying that it is a transgression against an objective standard of ethical norms, because no such standard exists.

5. The only other possibility is that when we describe a behavior as “bad” we are merely expressing a subjective personal preference, i.e., we do not prefer the behavior.

6. Therefore, when we say, for example, that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “bad” we are saying nothing more than that we do not prefer such a thing.

7. Finally, if someone else says that blowing up a train and killing women and children for personal gain is “good,” while we may disagree with them, there is no objective standard by which our views could be arbitrated.

Dostoevsky, though a Christian, would agree that PHV’s premises lead to his conclusions: In Brothers Karamazov he wrote:

‘But,’ I asked, ‘how will man be after that? Without God and the future life? It means everything is permitted now, one can do anything?’ ‘Didn’t you know?’ he said. And he laughed. ‘Everything is permitted to the intelligent man,’ he said.”

We see, then, that PHV is correct. If God does not exist, if materialism is true, if the entire universe consists of nothing but particles in motion, then the concept of an objective standard for ethical norms is meaningless. Indeed, the very concept of libertarian free will is meaningless, and if libertarian free will – the ability to have done otherwise – does not exist, no one can be held morally responsible for their behavior because, by definition, they could not have done otherwise. As Munny says to Daggett, “Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it.” And why shouldn’t Munny move to San Francisco and prosper in dry goods in spite of all of his crimes? After all, he has done nothing evil.

If we heard that a hairy ape in Africa killed a dozen other hairy apes with a rock, we wouldn’t demand “justice” for the dead hairy apes. Munny is nothing but a jumped up hairless ape who happens to be cleverer with firearms than the hairless apes he killed. On a materialist worldview, there is no difference between the hairy ape and the hairless ape, and the fact that our subjective reactions to the two massacres might differ cannot be based on anything other than pure sentiment, certainly not because there is a moral difference between the two acts.

Richard Dawkins summarized the theme of Unforgiven in his River Out of Eden:

In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Munny’s innocent victims got hurt, and he got lucky in the dry goods business.

We see then that PHV’s argument is perfectly valid, even airtight, given his premises. But is his argument sound? Now that, dear readers, is another question, and the answer to that question depends on whether PHV’s first two premises are true, and there are many good reasons to believe they are not. The self-evident existence of transcendent moral truth is one such reason. I have stated several times in these pages that it is self-evident that torturing infants for personal pleasure is evil. By “self-evident” I mean that to deny the proposition leads to absurdity. By “absurd” I mean “the quality or condition of existing in a meaningless and irrational world.” Mark Frank has asked me several times what “absurdity” results from denying that it is evil to torture infants for pleasure. I have answered him several times, and I will answer him again: If torturing infants for personal pleasure is not evil, then the universe is absurd – the entire world is meaningless and irrational.

In the quotation above, Richard Dawkins insists the universe is, in a word, absurd. StephenB, KF, I and others have been arguing that the universe is not ultimately meaningless. We believe that our intense intuition that torturing infants for pleasure is evil in all places at all times for all people is not merely a strongly held personal preference. We argue that our intuition is based on our perception of a fundamental reality that is part of the very warp and woof of the universe. God is not just good; he is very goodness. When he created the universe his goodness pervaded his creation leading him to announce “it is good,” and even in the universe’s current fallen state, the Creator’s goodness continues to pervade it, and we perceive that goodness. Indeed, it is impossible not to perceive it. There are some things that we cannot not know. That torturing infants for pleasure is evil – that it transgresses the moral law woven into the fabric of the universe – is one such thing.

There are many reasons other than the existence of self-evident moral truth to believe that God exists. We admit, however, that none of these reasons to believe establishes that God exists with apodictic certainty. It follows that there is some possibility that PHV’s first two premises are correct and that the universe is ultimately meaningless and irrational. But just as we cannot be absolutely certain we are right, PHV cannot be absolutely certain we are wrong. Even Dawkins is honest enough not to insist he has certain knowledge about God. He says only that there is “probably” no God. The smug certitude so many materialists display on these pages is unwarranted, and it follows that we should be very careful indeed before we choose on which side of Pascal’s wager to place our chips.

Comments
MF Pardon, but this is now taking on the dimensions of selective hyperskepticism. If you will glance just above, you will see that no-one -- least of all me, is dubiously creating a noun out of a verb and pretending that something shadowy that would not otherwise exist is thereby invented. Error, FYI, is a standard term, with a broadly recognised meaning as commonplace as sums for cause marked up with X's. Whether the matter is a mental state --
oops, I forget, evolutionary materialists doubt the reality of minds too (so who is MF and who is KF he is differing with . . . above and beyond ion flows in neurons . . . oops, experience and experience based knowledge is also now suspect . . . and so to infinite regress . . . and absurdity) --
. . . or whatever, there is a commonplace state of affairs that is denoted, as AmHD testifies inter alia, as a noun. Error is a given state of affairs produced by acts, assertions, beliefs, etc that unintentionally, are out of line with what is correct, true or right. And, as was already exemplified let us consider a young pupil who writes a sum as follows:
2 + 3 = 4 Which, on inspection asserts: || + ||| = |||| But as can easily be shown, remove |||| sticks on both sides: | = _________ Oops, error revealed by absurd contradiction. No wonder Miss Jones put a red X next to Johnny's sum: 3 + 2 ______ 4 X
With all due respect, you have tried to make a mountain out of a mole-hill. Let us look at my actual chain of reasoning as presented elsewhere, as case study no 1 on on self-evident truths:
For instance, consider Josiah Royce's subtle but simple claim: error exists. To try to deny it only ends up giving an instance of its truth; it is undeniably true. Let's zoom in a bit (using mostly glorified common sense "deduction" and a light dusting of symbols), as this will help us understand the roots of reasoning and reasonableness. As we have stressed, this is back to roots, back to sources, back to foundations. So, in steps of thought: 1: Let us take up, Royce’s Error exists, and symbolise it: E. (Where the denial would be NOT-E, ~E. Error does not exist, in plain English. Don't overlook what, equivalently, ~ E tries to say: "it is an ERROR to hold that error exists." Oops, it seems we can already see why the claim error exists is undeniably true!) 2: Attempt a conjunction, to draw this out more formally: { E AND ~E } 3: We have here mutually exclusive, opposed and exhaustive claims that address the real world joined together in a way that tries to say both are so. 4: Common sense, based on wide experience and our sense of how things are and can or cannot be -- to be further analysed below, yielding three key first principles of right reason -- tells us that, instead:
(a) this conjunction { E AND ~E } must be false (so that the CONJUNCTION is a definite case of an error), and that (b) its falsity being relevant to one of the claims, (c) we may readily identify that the false one is ~E. Which means: ______________________________________ (d) E is true and is undeniably true. (On pain of a breach of common sense.)
5: So, E is true, is known to be true once we understand it and is undeniably true on pain of patent -- obvious, hard to deny -- self contradiction. 6: It is therefore self evident. 7: It is warranted as reliably true, indeed to demonstrative certainty. 8: Where, E refers to the real world of things as such. 9: It is a case of absolute, objective, certainly known truth; a case of certain knowledge. "Justified, true belief," nothing less. 10: It is also a matter of widely observed fact -- starting with our first school exercises with sums and visions of red X's -- confirming the accuracy of a particular consensus of experience. 11: So, here we have a certainly known case of truth existing as that which accurately refers to reality. 12: Also, a case of knowledge existing as warranted, credibly true beliefs, in this case to certainty. 13: Our ability to access truth and knowledge about the real, extra-mental world by experience, reasoning and observation is confirmed in at least one pivotal case. 14: Contemporary worldviews — their name is Legion — that would deny, deride or dismiss such [including the point that there are such things as self evident truths that relate to the real world], are thence shown to be factually inadequate and incoherent. They are unable to explain reality. 15: Such worldviews are, as a bloc, falsified by this one key point. They are unreasonable. (And yes, I know this may be hard to accept, but if your favoured system contradicts soundly established facts and/or truths, it is seriously defective.) 16: Of course the truth in question is particularly humbling and a warning on the limits of our knowledge and the gap between belief and truth or even ability to formulate a logical assertion and truth. 17: So, we need to be humble, and — contrary to assertions about how insisting on such objectivity manifests "arrogance" and potentially oppressive "intolerance" – the first principles of right reason (implicit in the above, to be drawn out below) allow us to humbly, honestly test our views so that we can identify when we have gone off the rails and to in at least some cases confirm when our confidence is well grounded. So -- while we can be mistaken about it -- truth exists and we can in some cases confidently know it on pain of absurdity if we try to deny it. In particular, it is well warranted and credibly true beyond reasonable doubt or dispute that error exists. Truth therefore exists, and knowledge -- i.e. the set of warranted, credibly true [and reliable] claims -- also exists. (As noted already, but it bears repeating as it is hard for some to accept: this cuts a wide swath across many commonly encountered worldview ideas of our time; such as, the idea that there is no truth beyond what seems true to you or me, or that we cannot know the truth on important matters beyond conflicting opinions.)
I think we can see plainly enough where the matter stands on its merits, without side tracks over Royce was an idealist. So was Plato. Doesn't mean everything they said was or is useless or must be freighted up with every conceivable onward extension and idea they argued. In this case, Royce rightly highlighted that here we have a point of global agreement based on undeniable experience, from which we may start (at first, presumably with common good sense). And it turns out not just to be a consensus of experience, but it is demonstrably undeniable that error exists. Of what onward ultimate nature may be an interesting debate, but it is not material to the basic issue in front of us: certain things are true, are known to be undoubtedly true once we understand on our basic experience as thinking creatures, and must be true on pain of patent absurdity should we attempt denial. That is: truth, certainly and undeniably knowable truth exists, and worldview schemes that tend to deny or imply denial are fatally factually inadequate. KFkairosfocus
November 30, 2013
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KF #106 I am sorry I have no idea what you are trying to say. Can we keep it simple. I am quite happy to accept that people make errors. What is the additional concession you are seeking? It may help to point out that you can create a noun out of any verb e.g. pontificate – you can refer to every instance of it happening as a pontification and then the philosophically minded might assert “pontification exists”. By doing so you would not have added any information over and above the fact that people pontificate from time to time. In the same way when people err we call it an error and the philosophically minded might assert “error exists”. But are you saying something in addition? And, if so, what? Mark Frank
November 30, 2013
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KF @96: The insane can and do know, i.e. knowledge does not require sanity. Especially in Mathematics, they have made significant contributions — doff hats to Cantor among others.
Insanity need not be total insanity. I know an idiot savant who can play the piano like Chopin, and yet is utterly convinced beyond all attempts at refutation that Santa Clause exists. To him, Santa Clause is an unshakeable "self-evident" truth.CentralScrutinizer
November 30, 2013
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MF: First, the context of a SET is always one of our understanding our world. Second, the specific context of a teacher correcting sums given, right at the outset. Third, the marks on paper are understood in common, both the 2 + 3 = 4 error and the teacher's red X in correction. In short, with all due respect, all of this is trivially distractive. You then proceed to overlook repeatedly given context that we are not just dealing with a consensus fact, but a proposition that is undeniably so.
Again, E = Error exists ~ E denies this { E AND ~E} --> 0 Necessarily false, with mutually exclusive and exhaustive claims about the real world. One must be false to truth, i.e. it is an assertion that proposed a state of affairs but fails to refer accurately to reality. By simple inspection, it is ~ E. E is UNDENIABLY true because of its self referential properties. (Where, the same does not relate to that accidents occur or exist. To deny such, does not automatically instantiate an accident.)
Just to make matters clear on what error means, that there are no secret code meanings and agendas smuggled into the word, error, here is AmHD as a standard public example on the ordinary, relevant meaning -- which, with all due respect, both you and AF were duty-bound to examine before commenting dismissively in such a way:
er·ror (rr) n. 1. An act, assertion, or belief that unintentionally deviates from what is correct, right, or true. 2. The condition of having incorrect or false knowledge. 3. The act or an instance of deviating from an accepted code of behavior. 4. A mistake. 5. Mathematics The difference between a computed or measured value and a true or theoretically correct value. 6. Abbr. E Baseball A defensive fielding or throwing misplay by a player when a play normally should have resulted in an out or prevented an advance by a base runner. [Middle English errour, from Old French, from Latin error, from errre, to err; see ers- in Indo-European roots.] error·less adj. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
KFkairosfocus
November 30, 2013
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#103 AF Nice example - "accidents exist".Mark Frank
November 30, 2013
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PS @ StephenB Barry has need of your grammatical skillsAlan Fox
November 30, 2013
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I missed this comment from Barry till now:
Kantian Naturalist is leading a higher-level discussion of some of these ideas at TSZ
Because he is too gutless to spew his sophistry on these pages where he knows his arguments will be destroyed.
Hmmm. I'm not sure this new plan to attract traffic to your web site is going to work, Barry. PS @ Mark I've noticed this verb/noun trick performed quite regularly here. Who could argue with "errors happen", thinking of errors as unintendedly wrong acts. I'm not sure errors, in fact, exist except when they happen. "Accidents happen" is true. "Accidents exist", I don't think so. "Accident exists" is obviously meaningless. Is "Error exists" any more meaningful? Not unless there is reification going on and Stephen has a secret definition for "error" that he is about to share with us.Alan Fox
November 30, 2013
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KF #99 and #100 The answers to the sum were also marks on a piece of paper. They can only be called a mistake or error if they are understood as the result of a child's effort to answer a sum. Even if what was written was 2+2=5 that is not an error unless you understand it as an attempt to answer the question 2+2. I am quite happy to accept that people make errors. This is obviously true. If you and SB want to phrase it as "error exists" then that's OK with me - just so long as it is not interpreted as any more than the obvious fact that people make errors. I do not understand: * What is the additional concession you are seeking * What consequences flow from thisMark Frank
November 30, 2013
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F/N: On equivalence relations, "having the same birthday as" is a good illustration. Let us say A, B, C were all born Nov 30 in various years. AbA [reflexive], AbB means BbA will hold ;symmetric], and AbB and BbC entail AbC [transitive]. Transitivity is self evident once we have a valid equivalence relation and cases. Also, the distinction between equivalence in the material sense and identity is illustrated. Alvin, Bob and Carl could even be identical triplets, they are not the same identical person. KFkairosfocus
November 30, 2013
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MF: Royce was an idealist. That is irrelevant to the undeniable fact of error. It is you who seem to be resistant to a self evident truth, because you don't like where it may point. The nature of just what an error is is utterly irrelevant to whether such are facts, and to whether it is undeniable that they exist. Indeed, you will see that the substantiating arguments used in and around UD rely on the self referential character of the proposition and inspect the result of denial: E --> ~E. A simple conjunction will produce a necessarily false proposition, which implies that one of the two must be in error by failing to report states of real affairs correctly. And obviously that is ~ E. E, error exists, is undeniably and so self-evidently so, on simple logic. Separate from any onward arguments for idealism Royce may have had. KFkairosfocus
November 30, 2013
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MF: Pardon, but did you notice that I immediately corrected a garbled point -- cf the very next comment, a brief clarification? The X's mark the errors, the errors are there on the paper for all to see. The ACT of error was in the wrong sum, and the error remains thereafter in its own right, there for all to inspect. But all of this is side tracks, it matters not to the undeniability of the existence of error, which you are studiously diverting from acknowledging. KFkairosfocus
November 30, 2013
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StephenB
There is a big difference between the concept that “people make mistakes,” which is a statement about an action (verb), and the concept of a false idea, which is a statement about a thing (noun). I don’t understand why you have so much difficulty providing a straight answer to a straight question. Isn’t it self-evident that false ideas exist?
Because it isn’t a straight question. It is a deceptively short question but not an easy one to interpret. Try asking it (without priming them beforehand) of some casual acquaintance. I can almost guarantee they will wonder what you are on about. It is clearly true that people have false ideas. But Royce wanted to go from there to assert that errors exist independently of people in some kind of Platonic Universal space – that is far from self-evident and to my mind false.You are confused by the fact that you are using a noun into thinking it must refer to something. You need to read the Philosophical Investigations. Language is “bewitching your intelligence”.   KF
Those X’s — starting with wrong sums in elementary school, are errors.
Those X’s are marks on piece of paper. Without background knowledge , they could be a form of art, a message written in code, or a doodle. We call them errors because they document someone’s mistakes. The error was the failed attempt to do the sums or whatever.Mark Frank
November 30, 2013
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PS: A knows x in the relevant -- strong -- sense, if A has a warranted, true belief that x is so; e.g. that error exists is undeniably certain. In the weaker sense (common in science and the like), the warrant provides reliability and/or credibility but not certainty beyond future correction. For instance in a criminal case in the anglophone world, warrant must be to the degree of moral certainty called beyond reasonable doubt.kairosfocus
November 29, 2013
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CS: The insane can and do know, i.e. knowledge does not require sanity. Especially in Mathematics, they have made significant contributions -- doff hats to Cantor among others. KFkairosfocus
November 29, 2013
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CS: The A --> B --> C --> A pattern is an aspect of equivalence classes and an equivalence relationship, where relationships are reflexive, symmetric and transitive. It is not at all an axiom, there are relationships that do not cycle like that with a transitivity property, or one or both of the other two may fail. (This gets into abstract algebra.) It is however true that equivalents will be mutually equivalent, and that cannot fail on pain of contradiction in relevant cases where this is patent, e.g 1 + 4 = 3 + 2 = 5 + 0 and back so 1 + 4 = 5 + 0. That is, arithmetic equality is a familiar case. The moral truth is different in some ways, but it has the requisites that on understanding, we see it true and necessarily so on pain of absurdity. KFkairosfocus
November 29, 2013
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SB :Faith requires a leap, knowledge does not.
Even your "knowledge" requires a leap of faith: a belief that you are sane.CentralScrutinizer
November 29, 2013
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CS
1. If A = B, and B = C, then A must equal C.
I also notice that this formulation is confused in the context of the present discussion. Yes, if we are discussing a mathematical equation it would follow because each item can be the quantitative equivalent of the other. However, it does not follow in terms of identity because A, B, and C have already been defined as being different from the other by virtue of having different letters assigned to them.StephenB
November 29, 2013
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CS
Stephen B, At any rate, do you consider these two statements to be both “self-evidently true” using the same rational facilities in your brain? 1. If A = B, and B = C, then A must equal C 2. Killing babies for fun is always evil
1. Is a validly reasoned argument, not a self-evident truth. The self-evident truth on which that argument is based is the Law of Identity. If the Law of Identity and the Law of Non-contradiction were not true, then the argument IF/THEN could not be made. 2. Is a self-evident moral truth. A self-evident logical truth (Law of Non-Contradiction) is not exactly the same thing as a self-evident moral truth (We should do good and avoid evil), but both are self evident.StephenB
November 29, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer
Irrelevant. What matters is that it is “self-evidently true” to him.
If an insane man claims to be Napolean, then his claim may seem to be true for him, but it is, in fact, a false claim. Something that is self-evidently true is, by definition, true for everyone. In other words, it is really true; it doesn't just seem that way. In fact, two people cannot both be Napoleon. (Law of Non-Contradiction). It is not just self-evident to me, it is also self-evident to you. It is self evident to all rational, sane people. That is how we know that the person who doesn't believe it is insane or irrational.
Just like you believe certain “self-evident” things to be true.
Self evident truths are not believed, they are known.
Maybe your “self-evidently true” things are false as well.
Nothing that is true can also be false. (Law of Non-contradiction).
How can you tell if you’re believing a true thing or not? You can’t. At the end of it all is a leap of faith. Which means, there is nothing that is really self-evidently true.
Faith requires a leap, knowledge does not. I know that the Law of Non-contradiction is true. I know that I am not Napoleon. I gather that you also know that you are not Napoleon. No faith is required. Faith is for those things that we cannot know.StephenB
November 29, 2013
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KF: Where we speak of equivalence classes, A = B, and B = C so A = C is self evident. Killing babies for fun or the like is always wrong, and that is a violation of a self evident right and chief value: innocent life.
Obviously these are in different domains. Both are axioms. The first has no instances of conflict and a normal brain "sees" that there never can be a conflict. That's why it's an axiom. Are you saying the second is like unto it?CentralScrutinizer
November 29, 2013
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CS: Where we speak of equivalence classes, A = B, and B= C so A = C is self evident. Killing babies for fun or the like is always wrong, and that is a violation of a self evident right and chief value: innocent life. KFkairosfocus
November 29, 2013
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Pardon, clumsy expression -- the X's mark the errors.kairosfocus
November 29, 2013
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MF: Have you ever received or issued an assignment that for cause was full of red X's? Those X's -- starting with wrong sums in elementary school, are errors. What you seem to be trying to do is to force-fit the concept of error into nothing more than an act of erring. But the product of that act, the error, plainly exists. (This is beginning to sound like yet another red herring chase to dodge an inconvenient point. Per our common experience starting with those sums in school and including necessarily false propositions, such as trying to deny that error exists, error does exist, and undeniably so. That is, this is a self evident truth. Which is the material matter at issue.) KFkairosfocus
November 29, 2013
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Stephen B, At any rate, do you consider these two statements to be both "self-evidently true" using the same rational facilities in your brain? 1. If A = B, and B = C, then A must equal C 2. Killing babies for fun is always evilCentralScrutinizer
November 29, 2013
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Stephen B: What is your response to my comment @62?
Irrelevant. What matters is that it is "self-evidently true" to him. Just like you believe certain "self-evident" things to be true. Maybe your "self-evidently true" things are false as well. How can you tell if you're believing a true thing or not? You can't. At the end of it all is a leap of faith. Which means, there is nothing that is really self-evidently true.CentralScrutinizer
November 29, 2013
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Mark Frank
Of course there are plenty of false ideas around. I don’t see how that is different from the fact that people make errors. Those ideas exist in the sense that people have them i.e. make errors.
There is a big difference between the concept that "people make mistakes," which is a statement about an action (verb), and the concept of a false idea, which is a statement about a thing (noun). I don't understand why you have so much difficulty providing a straight answer to a straight question. Isn't it self-evident that false ideas exist?StephenB
November 29, 2013
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#82 StephenB Of course there are plenty of false ideas around. I don't see how that is different from the fact that people make errors. Those ideas exist in the sense that people have them i.e. make errors.Mark Frank
November 29, 2013
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Mark Frank:
You are right I don’t understand what “error exists” means other than that people make errors. Perhaps you can explain or give me a reference.
To say that "error exists," means that some ideas, philosophies, or concepts are in error because they deviate from what is true about reality. That these false ideas exist is self-evident. Do you agree?StephenB
November 29, 2013
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#80 KF I do not deny that "People do make errors". In fact that is precisely the meaning I ascribed to the phrase "error exists" in #75 and #77 but SB rejected. I am not sure what you mean when you add "such errors exist" over and above the fact that people make errors. Perhaps you are putting forward Royce's proposal that when we make an error the erroneous idea must also exist in some sense other in our heads? I strongly disagree and can see nothing self-evident about this proposal nor any absurdity arising from denying it.Mark Frank
November 29, 2013
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MF: That error exists -- as you know or should know as it has come up many times, is not only factually so but undeniable and self-evident. To see that in action, simply try to deny it. The attempted denial directly leads back to the truth of the proposition. So, it is true and cannot be denied on pain of absurdity. As to whether such is objective, we all went through basic sums in school and know by experience what it is to have a few red X's. Try:
3 + 2 = 4 ||| + || = |||| Take away 4 on both sides: | = _________ Absurd, and empirically observable.
People do make errors, and such errors do exist. That they exist is undeniable, on pain of absurdity. This is a self-evident truth, which you seem to have an enormous difficulty accepting as a reality. Where, on compelling evidence and reasoning with numerous material cases in point, such truths undeniably exist. This being one of them, one that we need no great citation of authorities and references to demonstrate. (Though it was Josiah Royce who pointed out the significance of the fact and consensus, and where it points to for building sound worldviews. And it was Elton Trueblood who kept pointing to it in later decades.) And from this first example we can go on to the contrast that a rock has no dreams and cannot be deluded that it is conscious, while -- even if deluded as to circumstances -- one cannot be deluded that one is conscious. Thirdly, by simply pondering a red ball A sitting on a table, one can see that the world is thereby partitioned: W = {A | ~A } Thence the core three first principles of right reason are immediately present. LOI, LNC, LEM. Further, we see the weak form principle of sufficient reason as undeniable: If A is, we may ask and investigate why seeking or at least hoping for a reasonable answer. From this, we come to cause, contingency, necessity of being, and possible vs impossible being. Such SETs do not give us worldviews complete, but they give us squares, plumblines, levels and yardsticks for laying out and assessing sound views. For instance as SET's exist, truth and knowable truth -- warranted even to undeniable certainty -- exist. Radically relativist and subjectivist worldviews are therefore incapable of addressing major aspects of reality. Thence, systems that lead to such, are falsified by implying what is contrary to reality. Already, that has sobering implications for the oh so prestigious Lewontinian-Saganian a priori evolutionary materialism of our day, never mind the lab coat. Mix in self-evident moral truths and the implications are even more stark. For instance, it is self evidently immoral, wrong and evil to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. So much so that as immediate corollary, should we discover such in progress we have a patent duty of care to intervene and try to rescue the child from the Nero-like monster. This case brings out just why the moral implication of evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers, that might ad manipulation make 'right' is absurd. The child has no might and likely no rhetorical ability to persuade such a monster. But, the child has worth, value, dignity and exists as an end in him or herself to be cherished and nurtured not abused, despoiled, destroyed and discarded like a bit of detritus. The child has unalienable rights such that we all have duties of care. And so the child reveals that we are under the moral government of OUGHT. Which points to there being a foundational IS for reality that properly -- objectively -- grounds that ought. Which brings up the underlying fish-bone such cross-ways in ever so many gullets: the only serious candidate to be such an IS is the inherently good Creator-God and ground of being, who is inherently a necessary -- inter alia both eternal and immaterial -- and maximally good and great being. Matter, of course being utterly contingent, as is beyond reasonable doubt post Einstein, Hubble et al. So, much pivots on that so simple but undeniably true point, error exists. KFkairosfocus
November 29, 2013
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