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Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?

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One of the recurring themes on this blog is moral subjectivism vs moral objectivism. Subjectivists argue that morals are fundamentally subjective in nature – akin to personal preferences, although very strongly felt. Let us agree for the sake of argument that they are not the same as simple preferences like flavors or fashion or colors and exclude that comparison from the conversation.

All perceptions of any kind are acquired and processed subjectively. That’s not the question; the question is whether or not it is better, more logical, or even necessary to think and act as if what one is referring to is objective in nature. Even though we all perceive what we call the “outside” world subjectively, I’m sure we’d all agree that it is necessary to think and act as if there is an actual, outside world – even if one is a solipsist. If you do not think and act as if it exists, you are in for a world of hurt.

A couple of other threads here refer to the current trend in some academic circles to consider “engineering rigor”, logic, gender and math part of the so-called “white, heterosexual, patriarchical oppression”; in other words, that such things are also subjective in nature and are largely produced by cultural bias. Link 1. Link 2.

If even the existence of the exterior world can be doubted on the grounds of subjectvism, certainly logic and math, which exist – as far as we can tell – solely in the mind, must be “subjective” in nature. Unless a subjectivist wishes to argue that thoughts can be anything other than subjective in nature, how exactly would they argue that math and logic objectively exist, or are objectively binding for everyone? Why should they be?

I don’t see how that argument can be made. If such abstract models are necessarily subjective in nature, then it follows that “engineering rigor,” which relies on math and logic, is one particular subjective perspective that has been forced on everyone via various building codes and laws. This argument is precisely the same as the argument for moral subjectivism; because something cannot be seen or measured in the exterior world and appears to exist solely in the heart or mind of the observer (which is true of math, logic and morality), then it must be subjective in nature, and must be accepted as such and treated as such.

Would a moral subjectivist be willing to live their life in a society where math and logic are considered subjective? Would they be willing to live in buildings where all features of the construction were left up to the builder’s subjective view of math, logic and engineering rigor? Where people were free to dismantle, change and add on to the structure based on their own subjective views? Exactly how long does one think a building would last if everyone got to change whatever part of it they wanted according to their subjective views? What if someone didn’t like the foundation and just started dismantling it and replacing it with something they subjectively think is better? Would a subjectivist get on a plane or a boat built by engineering subjectivists, or while enroute was being altered by engineering subjectivists?

And yet, the foundation and structure that built and maintains our entire society, informs the social construct and serves as the basis of law, is something moral subjectivists say will survive, thrive and even get better if we embrace moral subjectivism. Would moral subjectivists agree to math and logic subjectivism? To engineering subjectivism? If not, why not? Are they claiming math and logic are objective commodities and universally binding, even though they only exist in the world of mind and are – apparently – capable of being dismissed (by a growing segment) as subjective cultural biases?

Comments
JS
I certainly support the child killers right to form his own subjective morality. But that is not the same thing as me supporting him acting on his morality.
Thank you for your forthright answer. Do you believe that you are entitled to act on your subjective morality? If so, why do you not grant that same right to the subjectivist child killer?StephenB
January 18, 2018
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SB, thank you for answering my question. I agree with you but I wasn’t sure if everyone had the same view.
Meanwhile, you didn’t answer my question: Either you support the child-murderer’s right to form his own subjective morality, or else you believe that you are the only one entitled to do that. Which is it?
I think the fact that we all form our own subjective morality answers the question. I certainly support the child killers right to form his own subjective morality. But that is not the same thing as me supporting him acting on his morality.JSmith
January 18, 2018
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KF
JS, if you spend your live in wrenching or frustrating things from their proper course and end, then your behaviour will be evil, period. KF
Your evasion is duly noted.JSmith
January 18, 2018
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J Smith
The question I have for people who believe that objective evil exists, are some acts more evil than others? Or are all evil acts equally evil?
No, some acts are more evil than others and some people are more evil than others. In this context, we can distinguish a bad man from a truly evil man. (Usually the words can be used interchangeably, but in this context, we can make a few distinctions. ) A bad man may rob banks or commit acts of violence, but he realizes that he is not a good person. He doesn't deny goodness or the fact that he could be good if he tried. He accepts the existence of the natural moral law, but he simply refuses to do what he knows he ought to do. A truly evil man not only refuses to follow the natural moral law, he seeks to take others with him on the road to perdition. Accordingly, he tries to corrupt youth and fill young skulls full of mush with lies. His objective is to make them slaves to their passions, indoctrinate them with secularist ideas, and most importantly, destroy their minds so that they lose the freedom to pursue the truth. He begins by telling them that there is no such thing as truth. So the man who simply does bad things and falls short of the good is not as evil as the man who conspires against the good. The first type doesn't follow the moral map, but the second type throws out the map, claims that it doesn't exist, and hides it from those who would like to have known about it. Meanwhile, you didn’t answer my question: Either you support the child-murderer’s right to form his own subjective morality, or else you believe that you are the only one entitled to do that. Which is it?StephenB
January 18, 2018
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JS, if you spend your live in wrenching or frustrating things from their proper course and end, then your behaviour will be evil, period. KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2018
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LT said:
Isn’t it precisely your claim that there is such a moral system?
I said there are objective moral values, and that there are self-evident moral truths.
If so, why say that for some actions — seemingly depending on the actor’s motivation — we do NOT need a moral system to determine their identification as “evil” or “good.”
System: "a set of principles or procedures according to which something is done; an organized scheme or method." Self-evident moral truths reveal fundamental moral principles. From those basics of natural moral law we can reason forward towards necessarily true moral statements and conditionally true moral statements. That is how a "moral system" is derived from, originally, self-evident moral truths. To answer your other question, what we call morality exists in exactly the same way as what we call logic and math exist - they are language-based representations of fundamental, objectively real aspects of mind (not the physical brain), in virtually all cases recognizable by any mind sufficiently sentient to operate at rudimentary levels of abstract thought.William J Murray
January 18, 2018
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LT
Some on this thread have asserted that evil is a privation of the good...
I don't think that this is a valid description either. I can live my entire life never doing anything "good", and still not be "evil" or do anything "evil". I would define "evil" as an act that the vast majority of us would consider to be at the extreme end of "bad/wrong", that is done with full knowledge of the consequences to others, and with full intent. I realize that this is clumsy wording, but I hope that my point gets across. The question I have for people who believe that objective evil exists, are some acts more evil than others? Or are all evil acts equally evil?JSmith
January 18, 2018
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WJM @159 --
Do you need a moral system to decide if it is evil to torture innocent children for pleasure?
Isn't it precisely your claim that there is such a moral system? If so, why say that for some actions -- seemingly depending on the actor's motivation -- we do NOT need a moral system to determine their identification as "evil" or "good." WJM, I had asked earlier if you would explain your comment from 105. In what sense does evil exist, exactly? Is evil a natural/physical entity? A non-natural (abstract or Platonic) entity? A supernatural entity? Some on this thread have asserted that evil is a privation of the good, but this assertion leaves the same question: Does good exist as a natural, non-natural, or supernatural entity? What is your stance -- and then your argument -- for the existence of evil/good in the sense you believe?LarTanner
January 18, 2018
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Bob O'H:
Could one not also argue that this is backwards? i.e. morality defines good & evil? Otherwise I can’t see how we can decide that some act is evil.
Do you need a moral system to decide if it is evil to torture innocent children for pleasure? Do you need to weigh the pros and cons, do a cost/benefit analysis, consider various philosophical and psychological perspectives? Or do you just know it is evil as soon as you see it? Do you think it is possible, in any world, using any argument no matter how reasonable, even if I threatened to torture you, that you could come to agree (in your mind) that torturing an innocent child for your personal pleasure was a good thing?William J Murray
January 18, 2018
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kairosfocus:
ET, kindly, dial back tone.
10-4. Dialing back my tone to the "simpering coward" level. ;) (just kidding, I get it.)ET
January 18, 2018
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JS, the existence of and warrant for the reality of moral truth is not held hostage to "agreement." And, that's all to the good. Those who are in and wish to cling to convenient moral error will always want to put up a crooked yardstick and insist that it be used as a standard of what is straight, accurate and upright. Plumbline, what plumbline, they will predictably say. KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2018
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KF @ 151: I really appreciate your spirit, KF. I also understand ET's frustration with the a/mats who regularly troll this site. Yours is the better course, but it doesn't come easily for some of us... especially me. Thanks for the guidance.Truth Will Set You Free
January 18, 2018
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Bob O'H
Could one not also argue that this is backwards? i.e. morality defines good & evil? Otherwise I can’t see how we can decide that some act is evil.
If we can't agree on whether objective moral truth exists, we certainly are not going to be able to agree on whether evil objectively exists. The concept of "evil" also has a religious connotation that only clouds the issue. Is it evil to cheat on my taxes? Is it evil to lie? Is it evil to take the Lord's name in vain? Of course not. But even atheists would agree that it is wrong to do these things. But wrong based on some objective truth? Of course not. They are wrong in that they have an impact on the stable functioning of societyJSmith
January 18, 2018
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Folks, I suggest what we are fishing for is that OUGHTNESS is the root of morality, and of course the IS-OUGHT gap fits right in. In this context, evil is privation of the in-built telos that drives the ought. And that reveals at once the issue why worldviews that deprecate fundamental purpose and thus having a real nature that flows towards that purpose cannot ground OUGHTNESS. So, we have a choice, the sense of oughtness that governs even our rational life is either a delusion or it speaks in the main accurately. If a delusion it takes down rationality with it; hence say Cicero and his defining of law as highest reason that directs us in accordance with oughtness. If not, we must ground purpose in the world. One of the big worldview level decisions we must each make and must needs face the consequences of. In short, I would point out that once we see the issue of oughtness and how it is inextricably entangled with rational, responsible freedom, then we are forced to a worldview that can bridge IS and OUGHT at the only level that they can be bridged, the world-root. After centuries there is but one serious candidate, and to dispute this, kindly put up a coherent and adequate alternative: ______ . I predict, this will not be cogently addressed. The candidate to beat: the inherently good and wise creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. Evident nature, of course points out that we are not dealing with arbitrary commands, the sense of telos and proper course of a given manifest nature lead to the point that the good and the right will be reasonable and responsible. By contrast what is bad or evil will be privation, wrenching and ultimately chaotic. Which points straight to the significance of the Kantian Categorical Imperative and its derivatives or assosciated principles in moral reasoning. Telos also points to the importance of virtue, integrity, the spirit of truth and soundness, to character formed in the context of disciplined habit. And of course, natural law comes out as that law that is the logic of the telos of our evident nature. All of which then reflects into key self-evident test cases as we have been looking at for weeks. That, sirs, is how far our civilisation has fallen. 2050 years past, Cicero knew better. For shame! KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2018
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Oh dear, this thread blew up. :-) Just to pick up on one point a few people have made, e.g. WJM @ 105 -
Unless one agrees that evil exists, one cannot have a rational debate about morality.
Could one not also argue that this is backwards? i.e. morality defines good & evil? Otherwise I can't see how we can decide that some act is evil.Bob O'H
January 18, 2018
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F/N: it seems there was an exchange on definition of evil. I would suggest that the relevant one is that evil has no independent existence as such, it is a term that denotes the twisting, perversion, frustration, destruction or abuse and misuse, or the privation more formally of what is good and valuable out of its fit and proper course or end. So, the seizing of a child walking home from school to his home is an evil known as kidnapping. The binding of said child is an evil that robbed him of ability to flee or fight in defence of his life and person. The gagging was an evil that robbed him of his ability to plead for justice or cry out for help. The subsequent forceful violation of his body for perverted criminal pleasure was an evil that violated his right to his body and privacy. The further subsequent murder was an evil that robbed him of his life, the first right, also it robbed his family of its posterity and robbed his nation of his potential which was being developed in the school. All of these are highly instructive on rights, principles of moral government and more, including the purposes of the state that provides a defence of the civil peace of justice in promotion of the community that is a needed context that supports the thriving of individuals and families. Where, man is a social creature. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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ET, kindly, dial back tone. If the counter-accusation of JS et al is correct, you too were banned for cause here some time back and have returned with a new fresh-start persona. While it is in fact UD policy that a fresh start is a fresh start comment is a privilege on good behaviour. So, if ET is of this character, you made a good start, kindly keep it up. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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MarthaK: Kindly note, I draw to "your" attention what was already linked from 133 above and was exposed here (and what is to be found onward HERE at a well known attack site by one of its denizens) -- already credible reason for banning for cause; at this point JS is now here in a context where he is a known, declared throwaway persona of a troll who claims to have multiple further identities. In short, we have in hand a direct declaration or confession. Frankly, given his statement, I have to be concerned that "you" may be yet another persona. That is how tainting the underlying behaviour is. And no, I am not about to go into a thread-jacked tangential exchange. What A b stated in that context speaks clearly, decisively and to the utter discredit of JS. Where, before closing, I should warn that yet another tactic we have seen is the sudden withdrawal of a persona, with a claim made by other personas or confederates of "censorship" without due cause. I trust this will be clear enough if you are a genuinely separate person, and in any case it is a statement of truth for record, so that the truth will be known to all who need it. There is a REASON why JS can be held to be an acknowledged "sock[puppet]" of a notorious troll who has been banned here for cause multiple times, and therefore has zero personal credibility. There is reason to see that there are likely others here at this time. There is reason to hold that others may pop up, including those of the so-called "concern troll" variety. As at now, JS is to be understood as a typical representative of the talking points, rhetorical agenda and self-admitted manipulative tactics of those from the penumbra of animus-driven attack sites. Where, just in case there is something going on at the slightly less disreputable front site, The Skeptical Zone, that too must be included despite the fact that it also has a number of decent people involved. KF PS: I excerpt from the linked post, the specific confession of A b:
It is so much fun getting him [KF] wound up. Unfortunately, it usually ends up in me burning a sock. But I have several in the works that KF hasn’t figured out yet.
PPS: In this comment is excerpted an assertion that I closed off comments in a thread "He pulled a classic KF and closed out commenting when the comments got too rational" and that "That would make him a True Creationist (in a cheap ID kilt)." In fact, JS twice in rapid succession resorted to acrostics for notorious obscenities. I snipped them and on grounds that I have neither time nor energy to police a thread for such, closed it. Comment is a privilege on good behaviour. And no, this is not an excuse for onward threadjacking tangential behaviour.kairosfocus
January 17, 2018
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LoL! JSmith is proven to be illiterate and throws a hissy fit to try to cover it up.
so, everything that is bad or wrong is also evil?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bad: a : morally objectionable : evil It all depends on the CONTEXTET
January 17, 2018
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ET at 147, so, everything that is bad or wrong is also evil? Let’s check out Mr. Thesaurus. Thesaurus: Bad
abominable, amiss, atrocious, awful, bad news, beastly, blah*, bottom out, bummer, careless, cheap, cheesy*, crappy*, cruddy, crummy, defective, deficient, diddly, dissatisfactory, downer, dreadful, erroneous, fallacious, faulty, garbage, godawful, grody, gross*, grungy, icky, imperfect, inadequate, incorrect, inferior, junky, lousy*, not good, off, poor, raunchy*, rough, sad, slipshod, stinking, substandard, synthetic, the pits, unacceptable, unsatisfactory
Thesaurus: wrong:
amiss, askew, astray, at fault, awry, bad, counterfactual, defective, erratic, erring, erroneous, fallacious, false, faulty, fluffed, goofed, in error, inaccurate, inexact, miscalculated, misconstrued, misfigured, misguided, mishandled, mistaken, not precise, not right, not working, off-target, on the wrong track, out, out of commission, out of line, out of order, perverse, rotten*, sophistical, specious, spurious, ungrounded, unsatisfactory, unsound, unsubstantial, untrue, wide
Maybe you should have paid more attention in Ms. K’s class.JSmith
January 17, 2018
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JSmith @ 114:
Bad and wrong are not synonymous with evil.
evil- thesaurus
2 not conforming to a high moral standard; morally unacceptable their evil deeds rank among the worst in history Synonyms of evil black, dark, bad, immoral, iniquitous, nefarious, rotten, sinful, unethical, unlawful, unrighteous, unsavory, vicious, vile, villainous, wicked, wrong
It is very telling that Martha K, allegedly a teacher, had nothing to say about JSmith's obvious error.ET
January 17, 2018
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Martha K:
Sorry Sonny-buck, but you are not qualified to comment on my teaching abilities.
LoL! I didn't comment on your teaching abilities. Clearly you have reading issues.
And given the fact that you find it necessary to resort to derogatory comments in almost all of your interactions,
Sorry, lady-doe, but you are not qualified to make such a statement given the small sample of interactions you have observed. heck you even butted in and were shown to be wrong.
I can only conclude that you never had the opportunity to experience the benefits of having good teachers.
And you are not qualified to make that statement either. You don't seem educated enough to be a teacher. Thankfully you are not in my school districtET
January 17, 2018
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ET@141
If any student spewed the nonsense that JSmith spews and you allowed it then you would be part of the problem.
Sorry Sonny-buck, but you are not qualified to comment on my teaching abilities. And given the fact that you find it necessary to resort to derogatory comments in almost all of your interactions, I can only conclude that you never had the opportunity to experience the benefits of having good teachers. Or a good education. Sad, really, because you appear to be otherwise intelligent.Martha K
January 17, 2018
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JSmith:
But I wasn’t the one who said that SETs are determined by the majority.
Clueless, totally clueless. SETs aren't "determined" by a majority. SETs are accepted by the vast majority. Only the dullards don't accept them and thankfully they are the minority.ET
January 17, 2018
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ET
Do you really think that your spewage is meaningful?
I don’t know. But I wasn’t the one who said that SETs are determined by the majority.JSmith
January 17, 2018
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JS
Then God is not self evident.
The requires some explanation. If one understands God in terms of his attributes, then His existence is self evident. If one doesn't understand God in that way, then His existence is not self evident. However, the existence of an eternal being is self evident to anyone, building on that self evident truth, you can conclude that God exists.StephenB
January 17, 2018
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Martha:
If any of my students treated another student the way you treat JSmith, I would be trotting you down to the principal’s office.
If any student spewed the nonsense that JSmith spews and you allowed it then you would be part of the problem.ET
January 17, 2018
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JSmith:
The majority of people may believe in a god(s). But there is no majority view on what or who this god is.
So what?
Therefore, the Christian god is not a SET. The Muslim god is not a SET. The Jewish god is not a SET.
Same God- all have the God of Abraham.
When the majority believed that Africans were inferior,
What majority? Surely not the majority of Africans. Not the majority of Chinese and not the majority of Indians.
When the majority believed that woman were inferior to men
What majority?
The majority now believe that same sex couples have the right to marry
What majority? Do you really think that your spewage is meaningful?ET
January 17, 2018
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Kairosfocus@133. I have gone back and read through many, although not all, of JSmith’s comments. Although I disagree with many of his views, I don’t see anything that would warrant the venom and viscous accusations that you are tossing his way. If any of my students treated another student the way you treat JSmith, I would be trotting you down to the principal’s office. Forgive me for being so blunt, but I didn’t feel that I could leave this alone.Martha K
January 17, 2018
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ET
How do you figure?
The majority of people may believe in a god(s). But there is no majority view on what or who this god is. Therefore, the Christian god is not a SET. The Muslim god is not a SET. The Jewish god is not a SET. The Hindu gods are not SETs. The FSM is not a SET (although he is tasty with a nice tomato sauce). You are the one who made the rule. When the majority believed that Africans were inferior, did that make it a SET? When the majority believed that woman were inferior to men, did that make it a SET? The majority now believe that same sex couples have the right to marry. Does that make that a SETs?JSmith
January 17, 2018
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