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Would Moral Subjectivists Agree to Math and Logic Subjectivism?

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One of the recurring themes on this blog is moral subjectivism vs moral objectivism. Subjectivists argue that morals are fundamentally subjective in nature – akin to personal preferences, although very strongly felt. Let us agree for the sake of argument that they are not the same as simple preferences like flavors or fashion or colors and exclude that comparison from the conversation.

All perceptions of any kind are acquired and processed subjectively. That’s not the question; the question is whether or not it is better, more logical, or even necessary to think and act as if what one is referring to is objective in nature. Even though we all perceive what we call the “outside” world subjectively, I’m sure we’d all agree that it is necessary to think and act as if there is an actual, outside world – even if one is a solipsist. If you do not think and act as if it exists, you are in for a world of hurt.

A couple of other threads here refer to the current trend in some academic circles to consider “engineering rigor”, logic, gender and math part of the so-called “white, heterosexual, patriarchical oppression”; in other words, that such things are also subjective in nature and are largely produced by cultural bias. Link 1. Link 2.

If even the existence of the exterior world can be doubted on the grounds of subjectvism, certainly logic and math, which exist – as far as we can tell – solely in the mind, must be “subjective” in nature. Unless a subjectivist wishes to argue that thoughts can be anything other than subjective in nature, how exactly would they argue that math and logic objectively exist, or are objectively binding for everyone? Why should they be?

I don’t see how that argument can be made. If such abstract models are necessarily subjective in nature, then it follows that “engineering rigor,” which relies on math and logic, is one particular subjective perspective that has been forced on everyone via various building codes and laws. This argument is precisely the same as the argument for moral subjectivism; because something cannot be seen or measured in the exterior world and appears to exist solely in the heart or mind of the observer (which is true of math, logic and morality), then it must be subjective in nature, and must be accepted as such and treated as such.

Would a moral subjectivist be willing to live their life in a society where math and logic are considered subjective? Would they be willing to live in buildings where all features of the construction were left up to the builder’s subjective view of math, logic and engineering rigor? Where people were free to dismantle, change and add on to the structure based on their own subjective views? Exactly how long does one think a building would last if everyone got to change whatever part of it they wanted according to their subjective views? What if someone didn’t like the foundation and just started dismantling it and replacing it with something they subjectively think is better? Would a subjectivist get on a plane or a boat built by engineering subjectivists, or while enroute was being altered by engineering subjectivists?

And yet, the foundation and structure that built and maintains our entire society, informs the social construct and serves as the basis of law, is something moral subjectivists say will survive, thrive and even get better if we embrace moral subjectivism. Would moral subjectivists agree to math and logic subjectivism? To engineering subjectivism? If not, why not? Are they claiming math and logic are objective commodities and universally binding, even though they only exist in the world of mind and are – apparently – capable of being dismissed (by a growing segment) as subjective cultural biases?

Comments
GUN @ 12
What would it even mean to give a “right” answer to a morality question?
GUN @ 16
So the answer is right
So you do know what it means to give a “right” answer to a morality question. Now having established that you are full of crap, we can safely disregard pretty much everything else you have to say.Barry Arrington
January 10, 2018
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Barry,
Suppose the following exchange: GUN: Hey, Barry is is evil to torture an infant for personal pleasure? Barry: Yes, GUN, it is. Did I supply a “right” answer to a moral question?
Such a thing certainly shocks my sense of empathy, and so I would fight to stop such a thing, as would most others. So the answer is right in that sense. If there's another way it is right, I don't know what that would be.goodusername
January 10, 2018
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WJM, Excellent article. It seems to me that a consistent subjectivist about truth must hold that there is no truth at all. There are just a bunch of theories and it entirely up to personal taste which one is chosen. But this is not what we see. The 'subjectivists' on this forum continually speak of 'better knowledge', 'good and bad explanations' and so forth. But what do those terms mean? Or rather, how can it be that they mean anything to the subjectivist? For the consistent subjectivist there is no scale from bad to good or from false to true. And there is no 'closer to the truth' or 'further from the truth' because there is no truth. Obviously we see the same patterns in discussions about ethics. Perhaps I am mistaken about subjectivism. So, my question is: what does subjectivism mean?Origenes
January 10, 2018
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to Barry re 8 above: in math you can having logical systems that are logical consistent within themselves, with true statements that derive from the premises, but which are nevertheless different than other systems which have different versions of the premises. The iconic example involves, Euclidean (plane), spherical, and hyperbolic geometry. Each starts with a different premise about parallel lines, none of which are more true, or not, than the others: they are just different beginning assumptions. None of the geometries are more true than any of the others, but they reach different conclusions: for instance, in spherical and hyperbolic the sum of the angles in a triangle does not equal 180°. If you want to draw an analogy between math and morality, the correct analogy would be that there are different moral systems that derive from different starting premises: premises which are a matter of choice, not of "self-evidently true-ness."jdk
January 10, 2018
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GUN:
What would it even mean to give a “right” answer to a morality question?
Suppose the following exchange: GUN: Hey, Barry is is evil to torture an infant for personal pleasure? Barry: Yes, GUN, it is. Did I supply a "right" answer to a moral question?Barry Arrington
January 10, 2018
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It's trivially simple to imagine a machine that would answer math questions, and that has two compartments in which one can place, say, rocks, and the machine will answer which his heavier, and which is larger, and harder, etc, because such things are objective. I can't even begin to imagine a machine that can answer questions on morality. It seems to me that this is because morality isn't objective. Although, I’m now sure what "objective" even means when referring to morality. What would it even mean to give a "right" answer to a morality question? If there's alien life out there that's at least as intelligent as us, we can be pretty certain that they have discovered that 2 + 2 is 4 and have discovered many of the engineering principles that we have. We can safely assume such things because those things are objective. But would their morality be the same as ours? This is a common question, and one that already shows that most people realize the role of subjectivity in morality - no one asks whether alien math would be the same as ours. If they aren't a social species, they may not have any system of morality at all. But assuming that they are a social species, then they may have developed empathy, and therefore have a system of morality. But their morality may be quite different from ours based on their desires. Assuming that they have a similar desire to live, and have empathy, they will probably see murder as wrong. But in many other ways it would likely be very different from ours, depending on what they care about. The link between desires and morality would seem to point towards subjectivity. If humans didn't care about personal property, stealing wouldn't be seen as immoral. This separates morality from math. What 2 + 2 equals has nothing to do with desires. Humans generally have a desire to live, and so don’t want to be murdered, nor to be robbed, to not be raped, to not be lied to, etc, and therefore there's an inter-subjectivity here - I don't want those things to happen to me, and I recognize that others don't want those things to happen to them – and because of empathy, it pains me to see such things happening to others. This is why morality is different from a preference for ice cream flavor.goodusername
January 10, 2018
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CR:
Moral knowledge can exist objectively
After all this time you still don't have a grasp on the difference between ontology and epistemology. Fail.Barry Arrington
January 10, 2018
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:-) Yes, indeed. Thanks, Dave!jdk
January 10, 2018
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jdk, Here's my answer. :-)daveS
January 10, 2018
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I know nothing about the article on rigor - at first glance it looked stupid to me. But in general, the question in the OP is mistakenly trying to compare apples and oranges: math and morality are not analogous issues at all. Here is a test question that, to those who understand, will illuminate the difference: True or False: the sum of the three angles of a triangle = 180°.jdk
January 10, 2018
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Thank you for the link, Heartlander @4. The entire interview was delicious. Love DB!AnimatedDust
January 10, 2018
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From Barry Arrington’s link at 1 above: In a section claiming Google tries to “stifle” conservative parenting styles, the suit reads: “Google furnishes a large number of internal mailing lists catering to employees with alternative lifestyles, including furries, polygamy, transgenderism, and plurality, for the purpose of discussing sexual topics. The only lifestyle that seems to not be openly discussed on Google’s internal forums is traditional heterosexual monogamy.”” -- Furries?: A moose is loitering outside a hotel in the Chicago suburb of Arlington Heights. The moose—actually a man in a full-body moose costume—is here for a convention . . . and so is the porcupine a few feet away, as well as the many foxes and wolves. (Vanity Fair, 2001) Of course it is better for kids if their folks think they are animals than that they are humans. What could be more obvious?News
January 10, 2018
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All perceptions of any kind are acquired and processed subjectively. ... Even though we all perceive what we call the “outside” world subjectively, I’m sure we’d all agree that it is necessary to think and act as if there is an actual, outside world – even if one is a solipsist.
I think this is at the basis of Riley's critique of rigour in engineering. I doubt she would object to the idea that engineers shouldn't build houses that will fall down after 5 minutes, but if I understand her argument right, she's saying that rigour goes beyond saying what standards should be followed to make sure that this doesn't happen, but it says that these are the only standards that are needed. Of course, these standards are subjective (i.e. there are other sets of standards that would achieve the same end, so why pick one set over another?). With regard to morals, the situation is, I think, similar. If we see the purpose of morals as being a way to make a society work as a society, then it's evident that there are different ways to achieve this, and the choice of which set of morals to use would then be subjective. On this interpretation of morals (and it might not be the best one), one could, I suspect, make the argument that objective morals would be ones which are needed by any society to make it work. But then you have to explain why "needed by any society to make it work" isn't a subjective criterion!Bob O'H
January 10, 2018
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Berlinski: There is no argument against religion that is not also an argument against mathematics. Mathematicians are capable of grasping a world of objects that lies beyond space and time…. Interviewer:… Come again(?) … Berlinski: No need to come again: I got to where I was going the first time. The number four, after all, did not come into existence at a particular time, and it is not going to go out of existence at another time. It is neither here nor there. Nonetheless we are in some sense able to grasp the number by a faculty of our minds. Mathematical intuition is utterly mysterious. So for that matter is the fact that mathematical objects such as a Lie Group or a differentiable manifold have the power to interact with elementary particles or accelerating forces. But these are precisely the claims that theologians have always made as well – that human beings are capable by an exercise of their devotional abilities to come to some understanding of the deity; and the deity, although beyond space and time, is capable of interacting with material objects. - An Interview with David Berlinski
I argue, as others have done before me, that mathematical concepts and ideas exist objectively, outside of the physical world and outside of the world of consciousness. We mathematicians discover them and are able to connect to this hidden reality through our consciousness. If Leo Tolstoy had not lived we would never have known Anna Karenina. There is no reason to believe that another author would have written that same novel. However, if Pythagoras had not lived, someone else would have discovered exactly the same Pythagoras theorem. Moreover, that theorem means the same to us today as it meant to Pythagoras 2,500 years ago. - Edward Frenkel
Heartlander
January 10, 2018
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One of the recurring themes on this blog is moral subjectivism vs moral objectivism.
You've presented a false dilemma. Moral knowledge can exist objectively, but it's unclear how one could gain access to it when reason has it's way first.critical rationalist
January 10, 2018
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William J. Murray, the short answer is no. They will not agree to it. Even now, many are trying to "naturalize" mathematics. See: Can the rot of naturalism be stopped? Relating information to matter and energy might help When they succeed, mathematics will be helpless before oncoming hordes demanding credit for who they are and how they feel about it, not for getting correct answers. Then science will go the way of arts and a future Bret Weinstein would not get a settlement from his U. He would be to blame for insisting on "rigor."News
January 10, 2018
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This is where the subjectivist view leads: SJW mindset runs amok Barry Arrington
January 10, 2018
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