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Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
The real culprit in all this is Plato who consigned nearly all of humanity to drudgery by The Republic. He didn’t invent the concept but he engraved it in intellectual thought and it was gladly practiced in all of history in all the world especially by those who never heard of him. My definition is not circular because I define “good” or “correct” behavior. Otherwise what is good for a few and then moral for them becomes the standard. Without consideration of the good for the many the term “morality” gets distorted as it has for nearly all of history. This then provides a framework for analyzing behavior. I have provided three basis for this analysis. Maybe two will suffice since a lot of religious social practices depend on natural law analysis. However, it is Christianity that introduces the ultimate good, salvation so it is essential for them. Also remember I don’t like the term ‘evil” since I believe it is a meaningless term. Just another undefined term that nearly everyone likes to use. Similarly the term “good.”jerry
February 15, 2021
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What I have put on the table from the OP, is to identify that we face first duties that are inescapable, are intelligible, are self-evident and frame understanding of morality. The good involves fulfillment of first duties, at first level: truth, right reason, prudence, fairness, justice, thus the civil peace of justice in which there is due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities.
Yet these so called self-evident behaviors have been ignored by 99.99% of the societies in history and are being ignored by most of the prospective governing authorities in the current world. So they are hardly inescapably true duties now and for nearly all of history when their practice is/was so rare.jerry
February 15, 2021
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WJM, yes, we know you have taken up a view that the world we all experience in common is something like a simulation, or a projection of mind. Yes, you have somehow thought it simpler to so think than to accept the testimony of our senses and day to day experiences, and I am aware that others hold similar views, e.g. cartoonist ScotT Adams seems to at least toy with such. The result of such a view is to utterly corrode the credibility of our senses and minds, it is a species of the Plato's Cave, grand delusion fallacy. A sounder stance is to surrender such hyperskepticism about the world of our common experience, and to use the baseline view that we expect that our experiences are substantially accurate, whilst our worldview level speculations are far more riddled with difficulties and proneness to error, subject to well warranted corrections. Such as, we know our visual system's colour perception filters how we see things and that we are prone to optical illusions such as mirages etc. In that context, we know we use language, argue, make choices, experience pangs of conscience in much the same way we have hunger pangs, etc. We know that first principles of logic, or right reason are inescapable, starting with distinct identity of symbols, sounds etc with which we communicate. We have no good reason to think that our sensed duty to truth, right reason, prudence etc -- something that is pervasive and on longstanding record -- is delusional, indeed its inescapability at first level is good reason to recognise such as true and binding. In that context we may go on to connect to worldview frameworks, but that is an onward step. KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2021
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Jerry, no, the dictionaries are not being circular. We have a conscience attested sense of ought, of obligation to the right, the true, the sound etc that is inescapable; it is even strongly present in your argument; that is how first principles and duties are, they cannot be evaded. They are highlighting that morality is the title for that subject matter. A label is not circular. I hope you don't mind my injecting another term, ethics considered as the main branch of philosophy that studies morality. I clip:
Principles are broad general guidelines that all persons ought to follow. Morality is the dimension of life related to right conduct. It includes virtuous character and honorable intentions as well as the decisions and actions that grow out of them. Ethics on the other hand, is the [philosophical and theological] study of morality . . . [that is,] a higher order discipline that examines moral living in all its facets . . . . on three levels. The first level, descriptive ethics, simply portrays moral actions or virtues [ --> what we see in action on the ground]. A second level, normative ethics (also called prescriptive ethics), examines the first level, evaluating actions or virtues as morally right or wrong [--> thus, what are the core principles and cases at work]. A third level, metaethics, analyses the second . . . It clarifies the meaning of ethical terms and assesses the principles of ethical argument . . . . Some think, without reflecting on it, that . . . what people actually do is the standard of what is morally right . . . [But, what] actually happens and what ought to happen are quite different . . . . A half century ago, defenders of positivism routinely argued that descriptive statements are meaningful, but prescriptive statements (including all moral claims) are meaningless . . . In other words, ethical claims give no information about the world; they only reveal something about the emotions of the speaker . . . . Yet ethical statements do seem to say something about the realities to which they point. “That’s unfair!” encourages us to attend to circumstances, events, actions, or relationships in the world. We look for a certain quality in the world (not just the speaker’s mind) that we could properly call unfair. [Clarke & Rakestraw, Readings in Christian Ethics, Vol. 1: Theory and Method. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2002), pp. 18 – 19.]
I trust you won't mind a second clip:
However we may define the good, however well we may calculate consequences, to whatever extent we may or may not desire certain consequences, none of this of itself implies any obligation of command. That something is or will be does not imply that we ought to seek it. [--> this brings out the is-ought gap] We can never derive an “ought” from a premised “is” unless the ought is somehow already contained in the premise [--> so, what happens when we see that every argument, every rational, responsible act inescapably embeds key first duties, forcing us to seek a bridge at world root level, the only place such can be bridged? We see we need an IS that adequately founds ought, we need the inherently good and utterly wise as source of worlds. The issue then becomes, what candidates can fill the bill. So the challenge is, are we willing-- yes, willing -- to acknowledge that there is a fire behind the smoke reeking from every act, argument etc we make.] . . . . R. M. Hare . . . raises the same point. Most theories, he argues, simply fail to account for the ought that commands us: subjectivism reduces imperatives to statements about subjective states, egoism and utilitarianism reduce them to statements about consequences, emotivism simply rejects them because they are not empirically verifiable [--> where the verification principle collapsed due to self referential incoherence], and determinism reduces them to causes rather than commands [--> the problem of arguments on evolutionary materialism and its fellow travellers, including those trying to reduce morality to culturally derived conditioning] . . . . Elizabeth Anscombe’s point is well made. We have a problem introducing the ought into ethics unless, as she argues, we are morally obligated by law – not a socially imposed law, ultimately, but [--> intelligible, recognisable, inescapable, in key parts undeniably self-evident] divine law [--> the divine being the inherently good and utterly wise source of worlds, answering Euthyphro and Hume alike: is that inherently bridges ought at root level, and an is that inherently grounds intelligible ought] . . . . This is precisely the problem with modern ethical theory in the West . . . it has lost the binding force of [--> intelligible, inescapably self-evident, core, non-arbitrary] divine commandments . . . . If we admit that we all equally have the right to be treated as persons, then it follows that we have the duty to respect one another accordingly. Rights bring correlative duties: my rights . . . imply that you ought to respect these rights. [--> the right is the dual of the duty, so there is mutuality and we cannot justly claim as a right what subjugates others to do or enable wrong, so mutuality, consistency and equity come in on rights claims] [Holmes, Arthur, Ethics: Approaching Moral Decisions (Downers Grove, IL: 1984), pp. 70 – 7, 81.]
Morality, then, is something that goes down to the roots of reality and addresses how the responsibly, rationally, significantly free, self-moved creature discerns and decides towards the sound, true, good, wise. Where, such understanding grows with time, experience, reflection, maturity. Part of which involves listening to sound, conscience guided reason and recognising that this dimension of our existence pervades our thought, speech, reasoning, arguing, quarrelling, decisions, actions. What I have put on the table from the OP, is to identify that we face first duties that are inescapable, are intelligible, are self-evident and frame understanding of morality. The good involves fulfillment of first duties, at first level: truth, right reason, prudence, fairness, justice, thus the civil peace of justice in which there is due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. I pointed out that objectors routinely argue against such in various ways but reflect a clear pattern, they cannot but appeal to our recognition of these duties. They are inescapable, they are inescapably true, they are self evident. Where, the sadly real world case of a kidnapped, bound, sexually assaulted, murdered child destroyed to bring perverted brief pleasure to a human warped into monstrous behaviour, challenges us to face why such is patently, self-evidently evil. And why those who evade or dismiss such show inadvertently, that something is severely broken with their moral and intellectual compasses. KFkairosfocus
February 15, 2021
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SA2, how we learn to fulfill duties is simply irrelevant to grounding whether we have them. It is clear that many struggle with the idea that we are genuinely free and responsible, rational creatures. They don't realise how self-defeating the alternative is, a species of the grand delusion, Plato's Cave denizens fallacy. If our sense of obligation attested by conscience, our sense of being able to decide for ourselves, also to freely follow and agree/disagree [whether warranted or not], are delusional, simply artifacts of unconscious forces and socio-cultural conditioning, our entire credibility as able to think, warrant, know etc collapses. We have already seen cases in point above, from leading evolutionary materialistic thinkers. Those, we don't need to belabour, though Provine gives a typical case in point of the implicit self-serving exception for the elites advocating such views:
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent [--> including your own to reason, infer and conclude rather that simply being swept along by whatever junk is embedded in the garbage in, garbage out, blind chance and necessity programmed and organised computational substrate entertaining the delusion it is thinking freely and rightly, for itself as an elite scientist and spokesman?] . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will [--> without responsible freedom, mind, reason and morality alike disintegrate into grand delusion, hence self-referential incoherence and self-refutation. But that does not make such fallacies any less effective in the hands of clever manipulators] . . . [1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address, U of Tenn -- and yes, that is significant i/l/o the Scopes Trial, 1925]
The self-referential incoherence and self-defeat are patent. However, many will cling to the self-refuting for ideological reasons. Duly, noted. KFkairosfocus
February 14, 2021
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KF @336 said.
As I commented: >>To see where this argument goes off the rails, let’s remind ourselves of UD contributor StephenB’s key principle: Scientists do not use observed evidence to evaluate the principles of logic; they use the principles of logic to evaluate such evidence.
I totally agree. I didn't say otherwise.
It is only by following this approach that the researcher can uncover counterintuitive observed facts about [his or her experience] and develop groundbreaking models, laws or theories for explaining them.
Fixed it for you to reflect the self-evident existential truth you keep ignoring. The only thing any researcher can investigate and make factual discoveries about is his or her own experience. Period.
Only through rationality can we discover surprises and anomalies because only rationality can tell us what is odd.
Have you never heard of Tesla, epiphany or intuition?
First, the photon – this is where it got its name – has a definite energy h*f, and that energy is tied to the frequency of the light being shone on a metal surface, potentially triggering emission of electrons. Where also, for electrons to be emitted from the metal’s surface and fly off, the energy of the photon must be enough to overcome the work function, w. The remainder ends up as electron energy of motion, KE (up to a definite maximum value). Also, below a certain frequency, even with quite bright light, essentially no electrons are emitted. Above it, even with very weak light, electrons are emitted; there is a frequency threshold. Lastly, the work function is a measure of the relevant potential barrier for the metal surface.
Except we now know that none of that is what was actually going on, because none of those things actually existed or happened in the manner in which you mean them. Matter and energy do not actually exist other than as abstract patterns of information that are being processed in mind by mind via some apparently algorithmic process into mental experiences. What you're saying is akin to us watching watching a movie generated entirely by CGI and then you start telling me the physics of what I'm seeing because you believe it actually happened in a real world external of the computer processing information. None of what you are saying happened in the manner you mean it; what really happened is analogous to a CGI movie.
That is, we are here seeing how, even in quantum mechanics, our thinking and correlation of that thinking with reality as observed pivot on the recognition of distinct identity and on not confusing things with their opposites, as a crucial first step of reasoned scientific and general thought.>>
Nobody is confusing anything with it's opposite; you are confusing your hypothesis of an external, objective reality for a necessary truth because, I guess, you think that the principles of logic fail absent an objective, external universe. They do not fail. The principle A=A does not require that an objective, external universe exists where A=A to all observers. It has in fact been conclusively proved to not be the case because "A" doesn't exist as such except in the experience of the observer. That is where the principles of logic actually apply when it comes to evaluating evidence ascertaining facts because that is factually, necessarily where we are applying them and what we are applying them to even if we believe otherwise. There is no such thing as "natural law" in the manner in which it is generally conceptualized. It would be more accurate to say there are processing algorithms (like a CGI engine) that translate information into generally shared experiential patterns but which, to one degree or another, vary due to other, more individualistic algorithms also acting on that information.
Yes we can ponder how we map what is going on by superposing contributions of different states, in an odd way similar to fourier superpositions of sinusoids to build up waves. Yes, depending on setup, small particles can be got to act as waves or as particles. What that tells us is they are something else, sometimes called a wavicle.
Except no such particles or waves exist in the manner you're describing, nor can you, even in principle, provide any evidence they do. Everything you are saying as it relates to an objective reality external of mind is pure, unadulterated speculation, and cannot ever be anything other than that, because you have zero access to any such world even if it were to exist. It is pure faith. I absolutely know, empirically, that my experiences occur in mind. The initial assumption by Occam's Razor and logic should be that mental experiences are about and are generated by mental commodities. Until you can demonstrate evidence to support the hypothesis that an objective external world exists, your worldview is pure speculation, and that is the reason all of your ideological and metaphysical positions extrapolated through that fatally flawed lens continue to fail both logically and scientifically. You have, and can have, no empirical evidence of an objective world external of mind, because empiricism cannot occur there. Empirical evidence can only ever be about what is going on in mind.William J Murray
February 14, 2021
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JaD, I am a bit baffled. You say, "I would argue that the obligation to be honest is self-evident to most human beings because it’s almost innate…." Later you say, "As I have said earlier my argument is not strictly a deductive one. It is also an inductive one." I certainly believe that being honest is a core principle of my moral life, for a variety of reasons. But I don't remember your arguing that we were discussing induction about what might be innate in human beings, as you have stressed logically valid arguments. I also base my beliefs on what I see as a common core of human qualities. However to say that I believe that all (most) human beings care about being honest, for instance, is an opinion based on induction, not a logically validated argument about an objective obligation to be honest. Those are two different things, and it has been my understanding that you have been arguing for the latter, Maybe I have misunderstood what you meant by "objective standard"? But then you return to saying, "However, the main point I have always pushed is that moral subjectivism is an insufficient basis for interpersonal morality or human rights. Again, “How can morality be based on personal opinions? How are your personal opinions morally binding on anyone else?” So here is my question: what is the basis for interpersonal morality and human rights? 1. Is it inductive conclusions based on our understanding of what we observe about human beings (including looking inwards at ourselves), or 2. is it a conclusion, deductive or otherwise, about the existence of objective standards that transcend individual human beings and to which we all have some obligation. That seems to be the issue under discussion. What do you think the basis for interpersonal morality and human rights is?Viola Lee
February 14, 2021
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VL, Where are you from, Mars? If you don’t understand the obligation to be truthful and honest then you are not human. I would argue that the obligation to be honest is self-evident to most human beings because it’s almost innate… Of course there are sociopaths. Moral subjectivists that I have encountered here on this site in the past have typically used the argument that ‘because there are so many cultures and so many different systems of morality, it proves that morals are subjective.’ But that argument proves nothing. First of all they switch horses mid-stream. Moral subjectivism is not the same as cultural relativism which really is the example they are presenting. Secondly it doesn’t follow that all societies are morally equal. For example, was the Nazi system of morality morally equal to other western societies? If there are differences there is a higher moral standard. When some of the Nazi defendants at the Nuremberg trials tried to defend themselves by arguing that they were just following orders or following the laws of the Third Reich was that a moral defense? In other words, were they being punished just because their side lost but morally their arbitrarily chosen ethical system was just as good as any others? As I have said earlier my argument is not strictly a deductive one. It is also an inductive one. For example, I would argue that the vast majority of cultures and sub-cultures have an obligation to be truthful and honest. Even in subcultures like Gypsies or the Mafia there is the so-called “honor among thieves” ethic. However, the main point I have always pushed is that moral subjectivism is an insufficient basis for interpersonal morality or human rights. Again, “How can morality be based on personal opinions? How are your personal opinions morally binding on anyone else?” https://uncommondescent.com/laws/should-we-recognise-that-laws-of-nature-extend-to-laws-of-our-human-nature-which-would-then-frame-civil-law/#comment-723821 Atheist philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein said, “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” Morality was one of the subjects of which Wittgenstein said “there can… be no… propositions,” that is, according to Schulte, there can be no true-or-false propositions. (Joachim Schulte, Wittgenstein: An Introduction, p.61.) The atheists who show up here should heed Wittgenstein’s advice because on ethics and morality they really have nothing to say.john_a_designer
February 14, 2021
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Kairosfocus “ SA2, the duties are inherent in being a rational, communicative, responsible, error-prone, significantly free creature.” No. The duties are learned and reinforced by parents and society, through centuries of experience. Again, I suggest that you pick one of these duties and provide evidence that it is inherent, or proof that it cannot be learned.Steve Alten2
February 14, 2021
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No one is using a consistent definition of "morality" so when one uses the term, it is essentially talking past others. The dictionary definition in #173 "relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior" begs the question of what is the meaning of the word "right" or just what is right behavior. Tamerlane, Hitler, Pol Pot and other mass murders thought they were doing the right thing by their personal objectives or the objectives of their people. So according to the above definition they were doing the moral thing. A thought that's intrinsically repulsive to nearly everyone but all these mass murders had large numbers of followers who agreed with them. So something is basically missing in this definition of “morality.” I claim it is what is considered to be “right.” So what is right or wrong in many situations in history has been determined by the person in power who determines what is right based on their whims or personal objectives. Or morality is then based on power. It has usually been a king or some other ruler determining what is right. This is something else that is repugnant to just about everyone in our society because it is so arbitrary. We have often heard the expression of the "benevolent king" or ruler but as we all know that is an exception not the rule. But it could also be a privileged sub group such as white plantation owners in the pre Civil War South who determined that slavery was not only acceptable but desired. Similarly certain groups have acquired power to only enrich themselves. Or in our current US situation, certain groups have acquired vast riches and are using it to ensure their power. So as I said in #156, standards of behavior or what is moral are determined by power. And this has been the norm for nearly all of history. But are there others standards to use to define what is correct or right behavior besides what the current person or system in power believes at the moment. Standards that are independent of who is in power and who has the vast riches. I maintain that there are. There are three possibilities and maybe all three should be combined to get the ideal system for behavior. One I mention in #156 is based on religion. Whether it is popular or not, for most of the last two thousand years, the tenets of Christianity have been the power base to overrule or guide the secular authority in the Western world. Often for the good but they did little for the average person. A lot of the other parts of the world were under the tenets of Islam. Other religions have provided somewhat different rules for behavior and many are actually in conflict with each other. Even under these religious systems, the masses suffered. There were no exceptions. Serfdom and slavery were common in Christianity as well as the rest of the world. Rather than get in to a conflict over which religion is right, it may be worthwhile looking to them to see what is in common and what is not. What are religion based prescriptives and what are society based prescriptives. For example, "Thou shall not kill" from the 10 Commandments is not necessarily a religious doctrine but one that affects society. Most non religious persons including avowed atheists have little problem with these tenets. Then there are non religious prescriptives that lead to the well being of society. For most of history a gradated caste system was the norm with a few at the top and the masses below at the whims of these few people and there was little progress for these masses over the centuries. So what besides religion could help these people prosper? I have mentioned the one big one change that was unique in human history but which then led to the modern world and the increasing well being of nearly all in terms of material well being, health and education. That was freedom for all. This particular freedom is for every person with no special class structure that had gradations in it. The best example of this was Pennsylvania in the English colonies. It was not by accident that the US was born in Philadelphia. Also through out history there has been a study of natural law which is a system of law based on a close observation of human nature, and based on values intrinsic to human nature that can be deduced and applied independent of positive law (from Wikipedia) So I propose the basis of right behavior and morality includes these three type of correct behavior which seem to lead to the well being of nearly all. This will not end disagreements but it can be then the basis for why one advocates a certain behavior vs another. And what restrictions should be imposed on someone's freedom. I have strong personal beliefs on these restrictions which I tend not to bring up and usually prefer not to debate them here. This is not the place for such debates. This is a site on Intelligent Design and political issues are usually inappropriate. However, it seems to be a passion for a few here in the last few months as our exterior world is changing fast and seemingly not in a good direction.jerry
February 14, 2021
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WJM, I gave a link. Recall, we deal with people here who tried to redefine non-being into a quantum foam. I clip from the linked, to show the problem:
Dr Larry Krauss’ opening remarks during his debate with philosopher Dr William Lane Craig: “The interesting thing about the universe is it’s not logical. At least it’s not classically logical….It’s [science] taught us that the universe is the way it is whether we like it or not….The point is if we continue to rely on our understanding of the universe on…classical logic…then we’d still be living in a world where heavier objects, we think, fall faster than light objects…instead of doing the experiment to check it out. We can’t rely on what we think to be sensible; we have to rely on what the universe tells us is sensible….The universe just simply isn’t sensible.” [Anonymous Physicist:] Do you know anything about quantum mechanics, for example? About the fact that there can be linear superpositions of physical states? . . . . we can have a state of physical reality where an electron has spin “up” and spin “down” simultaneously . . . . It is equivalent to having a person being alive and dead, simultaneously. Presumably you would claim that a person cannot be both alive and dead simultaneously. But quantum mechanics proves otherwise *with the following caveat*. . . . Macroscopic states, due to something called “decoherence”, generally assume classical behaviors . . . . I cannot accept the “law of noncontradiction” because I know of instances where it does not apply . . . . there is a problem with classical notions of contradiction when one goes to the quantum level — the way the universe works
As I commented: >>To see where this argument goes off the rails, let’s remind ourselves of UD contributor StephenB’s key principle: Scientists do not use observed evidence to evaluate the principles of logic; they use the principles of logic to evaluate such evidence. It is only by following this approach that the researcher can uncover counterintuitive observed facts about nature and develop groundbreaking models, laws or theories for explaining them. Only through rationality can we discover surprises and anomalies because only rationality can tell us what is odd. We can see this from the way that the very same quantum mechanics was put together; not least because we may otherwise lose our way in the thicket of quantum weirdness. Now, proverbially, the theoretical physicists of a century ago scratched out their analyses on chalk boards . . . . To work on those chalk boards, the physicists used specific chalk scratch-marks that functioned as symbols connected together in rather definite ways, e.g. h for the now famous Planck’s constant 6.626 *10^ -34 Js. So, for instance when Einstein explained the photoelectric effect and thus set quantum theory on its feet once and for all (it had been viewed as rather dubious till that time) — winning a Nobel Prize along the way – he deduced something like: KE_max = h*f – w Each of these symbols is quite definite and symbolises something specific. The mathematical-logical relationships between them are just as definite, too. First, the photon – this is where it got its name – has a definite energy h*f, and that energy is tied to the frequency of the light being shone on a metal surface, potentially triggering emission of electrons. Where also, for electrons to be emitted from the metal’s surface and fly off, the energy of the photon must be enough to overcome the work function, w. The remainder ends up as electron energy of motion, KE (up to a definite maximum value). Also, below a certain frequency, even with quite bright light, essentially no electrons are emitted. Above it, even with very weak light, electrons are emitted; there is a frequency threshold. Lastly, the work function is a measure of the relevant potential barrier for the metal surface. That is, we are here seeing how, even in quantum mechanics, our thinking and correlation of that thinking with reality as observed pivot on the recognition of distinct identity and on not confusing things with their opposites, as a crucial first step of reasoned scientific and general thought.>> Yes we can ponder how we map what is going on by superposing contributions of different states, in an odd way similar to fourier superpositions of sinusoids to build up waves. Yes, depending on setup, small particles can be got to act as waves or as particles. What that tells us is they are something else, sometimes called a wavicle. But all along the very process of empirical testing pivots on the logic T => O, ~ O undermines T ans O supports it for now. That logic comes back to the same point. KF PS, Krauss conflated Aristotelian physics with aristotle's summary of core logic. Chalk and cheese.kairosfocus
February 14, 2021
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SA2, the duties are inherent in being a rational, communicative, responsible, error-prone, significantly free creature. To be free is to have choices, which can be good or bad, wise or foolish and much more, implying duty to choose aright with possibility to do otherwise. Choose towards truth, sound reasoning, prudence with discernment and warrant, etc. Education and training, if sound, prepare one for that, they don't invent or program the capability or the duty. Such a suggestion is perilously close to arguing for grand delusion, which is utterly self-defeating. KFkairosfocus
February 14, 2021
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Jad, you've stressed logically valid arguments as opposed to opinions. So let me apply some logic: You write, "If being truthful and honesty is a morally binding obligation then truthfulness and honesty is an example– a prime example– of an objective moral obligation." This is a conditional statement in the form "if p then q". In a conditional statement, if the premise p is false, you can not determine the truth value of q. (Google conditional statement truth tables for an explanation.) Therefore, the conclusion of your statement is necessarily true only if the premise is true. Therefore, you need to show that your premise, "being truthful and honest is a morally binding obligation ..." is true. How do you know that "being truthful and honest is a morally binding obligation" is true. That is what you have not established. This is not nonsense. This is logic.Viola Lee
February 14, 2021
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Let me keep this very general. (Since I don’t have the time or patience for a lot of nonsense.) We can’t have a debate or discussion about morality unless you are talking about moral obligation-- right or wrong, what you ought or ought not to do. How can morality be based on personal opinions? How are your personal opinions morally binding on anyone else? In other words, OPINIONS ARE NOT OBLIGATIONS. For example, if you are not being truthful and honest why should I trust anything you are saying? If there is not a morally binding interpersonal standard of honesty (which by the way has been defined legally and not just in the U.S.) what’s the point of having a debate or discussion? If being truthful and honesty is a morally binding obligation then truthfulness and honesty is an example-- a prime example-- of an objective moral obligation.john_a_designer
February 14, 2021
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I would like to support and add to some of the things WJM said at 327 in response to JaD JaD had written, "Because you have an opinion doesn’t mean it’s true. Opinions are not truth:, and WJM replied, "That’s why I said “IMO.”" I'll add that just because one has an opinion doesn't mean its not true either. When Jad wrote, "You cannot establish something to be true (either epistemologically or morally) unless you have some kind of objective standard," WJM replied, "I guess that depends on what you mean by “establish.” Do you mean establish objectively? That makes your statement rather circular." I have asked JaD to show his logical arguments that would establish objectively that objective standards exist. JaD doesn't seem to want to do this. He continues to post what he sees as adverse consequences if objective truths don't exists, but argumentum ad consequentiam is not a valid logical argument. When JaD wrote, "Morally I am not obligated to accept your subjective and ungrounded moral opinions. You have no right to tell me what to think and believe.," WJM replied, "Is stating my opinion the same as telling you what to think and believe?" Yes. In other posts JaD has even used the phrase "force him to believe." Having other people express their beliefs isn't the same as telling, or forcing, others to believe. It's just part of sharing our different perspectives. WJM quotes JaD as saying, "To say that an objective standard does not exist is to make a truth claim about truth which is self-refuting. No one can claim the “truth is there is there is no truth,” without being logically self-refuting." This is either a tautology or a "shifting the goalposts" logical error. When I say that I think (i.e., IMO) objective moral standards don't exist, I am not stating that as an Objective Truth, with a capital "T"", but rather as what I think, provisionally, is likely to be true, with a little "t". I'm quite willing to defend this opinion, but certainly not by invoking dogmatic statements that capital T truths exist. To say that I think it is True that objective Truths don't exist would be subject to the fallacy JaD is mentioning. But that is not what I am saying. One last logical point. JaD says, often, something to this effect: if there are objective moral standards then we can make objective moral judgments about individual situations." However, the truth of this statement depends on the truth of the premise that objective moral standards exist, and this it what JaD seems reluctant to defend. And, as WJM points out, JaD's would need to objectively establish that objective moral standards existing order to avoid merely offering a subjective opinion that objective standards exist.Viola Lee
February 14, 2021
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From where I'm sitting, I'm the one who isn't actively denying a self-evident, existential truth because it would undermine my entire ideology. I'm not the one clinging to an unsupportable hypothesis to sustain my worldview out of the fear it may lead to - *gasp* - solipsism. I'm not the one waving a magic wand to bridge the domain transfer/translation gap between a material world and mental phenomena. I'm not the one denying the (quantum) science.William J Murray
February 14, 2021
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Kairosfocus @ 316. You keep talking obit our “duties”. Can you pick one of these and explain why it is inherent and not explained by learning, reinforcement, feedback and conditioning at an early age? A duty to truth is already off the table.Steve Alten2
February 14, 2021
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KF @323: Again: knowledge can be had. Nobody is refuting that. There are truths. Nobody is contesting that. First principles of logic are valid. Nobody has said or implied otherwise. Yet, you keep talking as if someone has disagreed with those things.William J Murray
February 14, 2021
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Typo @ #324,"No one can claim the “truth is there is there is no truth,” without being logically self-refuting." Should read, "No one can claim the “truth is there is no truth,” without being logically self-refuting."john_a_designer
February 14, 2021
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JAD said:
IMO? SO WHAT?
Indeed.
Because you have an opinion doesn’t mean it’s true. Opinions are not truth.
That's why I said "IMO."
You cannot establish something to be true (either epistemologically or morally) unless you have some kind of objective standard.
I guess that depends on what you mean by "establish." Do you mean establish objectively? That makes your statement rather circular. Do I need to establish, by some objective standard, the truth of the assertion that I love my wife? I said that my opinion is that morality doesn't rise to the level of a self-evident truth. Is there some kind of objective standard I need to meet to establish that this is factually my opinion?
Morally I am not obligated to accept your subjective and ungrounded moral opinions. You have no right to tell me what to think and believe.
Is stating my opinion the same as telling you what to think and believe? Let's try this out: JAD, think and believe there is no God. Did my supposed lack of the right to do a thing prevent me from doing it?
To say that an objective standard does not exist is to make a truth claim about truth which is self-refuting. No one can claim the “truth is there is there is no truth,” without being logically self-refuting.
I didn't, nor have I ever, said "there is no truth." There is a self-evident existential truth that you and KF are on the wrong side of. I think I've been pretty clear about that.
If you begin with a self-refuting premise you DO NOT HAVE an argument.
Fortunately, I haven't presented a self-refuting premise.
Both epistemologically and morally such thinking leads to relativism, subjectivism and then nihilism. Moral nihilism has always been disaster for any civilized society.
Fortunately, my thinking isn't self-contradictory or, as KF likes to put it, self-referentially absurd. Not that I care about civilized society that much, if you can call what we're in a "civilized society."William J Murray
February 14, 2021
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KF @322, The researchers do not think they have undermined the principles of logic. Neither do I. What they have revealed is that we applying them incorrectly, conceptually, to the wrong thing, under an incorrect paradigm. The fact is that when one experiences a picture of a red ball on the table, that is the only place "the picture of the red ball on the table" actually exists - in the observer's experience. There is no table and there is no picture of a red ball that exists outside of that mental experience. Shared mental experiences are not the same thing as an external, objective reality. "External, objective reality" is a hypothesis that attempts to organize certain experiences into a model. Unfortunately, no evidence for that hypothesis can ever, even in principle, be acquired, and it has - scientifically, if you want to go that route - been conclusively disproved. It is self-evidently true that mental experience = de facto reality. If anything actually exists outside of mind, it is forever out of our reach.William J Murray
February 14, 2021
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JaD, what is the argument for establishing that objective standards exist?Viola Lee
February 14, 2021
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WJM,
IMO, morality doesn’t rise to the level of providing self-evidently true statements about existence.
IMO? SO WHAT? Because you have an opinion doesn’t mean it’s true. Opinions are not truth. You cannot establish something to be true (either epistemologically or morally) unless you have some kind of objective standard. Morally I am not obligated to accept your subjective and ungrounded moral opinions. You have no right to tell me what to think and believe. To say that an objective standard does not exist is to make a truth claim about truth which is self-refuting. No one can claim the “truth is there is there is no truth,” without being logically self-refuting. If you begin with a self-refuting premise you DO NOT HAVE an argument. Both epistemologically and morally such thinking leads to relativism, subjectivism and then nihilism. Moral nihilism has always been disaster for any civilized society.john_a_designer
February 14, 2021
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F/N: I have added to the update, a look at a red, not quite ball in the sky, Betelgeuse. This was a case of objective observations by many, here imaging the star as a disk, but I for one among many went out and took a look at the dimming star wondering with many if this was the start of the long expected blow-up. We need to anchor to controlling facts that allow us to recognise that we credibly are spanning Kant's ugly gulch between appearance and reality. KF PS: As a reminder:
We may agree, perhaps, to understand by metaphysics an attempt to know reality as against mere appearance, or the study of first principles or ultimate truths, or again the effort to comprehend the universe, not simply piecemeal or by fragments, but somehow as a whole [--> i.e. the focus of Metaphysics is critical studies of worldviews] . . . . The man who is ready to prove that metaphysical knowledge is wholly impossible . . . himself has, perhaps unknowingly, entered the arena . . . To say the reality is such that our knowledge cannot reach it, is a claim to know reality ; to urge that our knowledge is of a kind which must fail to transcend appearance, itself implies that transcendence. [--> this is the "ugly gulch" of the Kantians] For, if we had no idea of a beyond, we should assuredly not know how to talk about failure or success. And the test, by which we distinguish them, must obviously be some acquaintance with the nature of the goal. Nay, the would-be sceptic, who presses on us the contradictions of our thoughts, himself asserts dogmatically. For these contradictions might be ultimate and absolute truth, if the nature of the reality were not known to be otherwise . . . [such] objections . . . are themselves, however unwillingly, metaphysical views, and . . . a little acquaintance with the subject commonly serves to dispel [them]. [Appearance and Reality, 2nd Edn, 1897 (1916 printing), pp. 1 - 2; INTRODUCTION. At Web Archive.]
kairosfocus
February 14, 2021
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WJM, how clever, and how futile. To try to rationally justify first principles, one inevitably uses said principles. Remember, just to communicate-- including to object as you did -- we rely on distinct identity, as Paul probably cited from Logic 101 c 50 AD. They cannot be proved as a direct result, they are recognised, acknowledged, accepted as start points, on pain of descent into absurdity. BTW, this includes to conceptualise, work through and communicate the principles and mathematics of quantum theory, as was already linked. If the researchers imagine they then undermine said first principles, they become self-referentially incoherent. Some clearly do so, as is linked. Better, they should reflect on superpositions and on how our maps are not the reality. KF PS: Note the photograph of a red ball on a table. The fact speaks for itself.kairosfocus
February 14, 2021
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Jerry definition is a description that gives the general point. Mores have to do with what a culture or sub culture sets out as moral standards. This is generally subject to analysis of various degrees of sophistication. Codes of conduct are linked. Definition does not elaborate codes, mores, analysis or methods etc, it is a first step. KFkairosfocus
February 14, 2021
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According to quantum experimentation, not only am I entitled to my own opinions, I am entitled to my own facts. While it is self-evidently true that A=A, the problem is, KF, that you (and others) are applying A=A and the principle of non-contradiction to the wrong thing, conceptually speaking. You're conceptually applying the principles of logic as if they are about something that exists outside of mind in an objective state for all observers. This has been incontrovertibly demonstrated to not be the case. The principles of logic can only apply to personal, mental experience and nothing else. IOW, I cannot experience something having state A and having state not-A at the same time in the same place. IOW, I cannot experience a cube that is completely red on all external surfaces AND, at the same time and in the same place, experience it being "not red" in the same manner. That doesn't mean the person standing there alongside me experiences a red cube; QM clearly demonstrates that there is no red cube there at all external of our experiences of it. There is literally nothing there that exists, in and of itself, as a "red cube."William J Murray
February 14, 2021
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the definition of what morality is, is not the elaboration of mores or their analysis, or codes of conduct etc. It is but a beginning, but beginnings are where we do just that, begin
I haven’t a clue what this means. Are you trying to say “correct behavior” needs to be defined or agreed to? Which case how is that different from the claim “correct behavior” is determined by who has power? Is “correct behavior” determined by the objectives of those in power? Does this mean all morality is subjective? In which case it has no meaning. In which case there is no agreed upon definition. In which case we are all talking past each other.jerry
February 14, 2021
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WJM: "Convince me that logic is necessary. KF: "Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?" WJM: I don't care how you do it, that's up to you. KF: Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument? WJM: Are you even listening? I don't care how you do it, just convince me. KF: How, then, will you know if I impose upon you? WJM: Because I will be convinced, obviously. KF: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? WJM: Nope, I haven't admitted any such thing.William J Murray
February 14, 2021
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Jerry, the definition of what morality is, is not the elaboration of mores or their analysis, or codes of conduct etc. It is but a beginning, but beginnings are where we do just that, begin. KFkairosfocus
February 14, 2021
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