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Should we recognise that “laws of nature” extend to laws of our human nature? (Which, would then frame civil law.)

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Laws of Nature are a key part of the foundation of modern science. This reflects not only natural, law-like regularities such as the Law of Gravitation that promotes the Earth to the heavens (from being the sump of the cosmos) but also the perspective of many founders that they were thinking God’s creative, ordering providential and world-sustaining thoughts after him. The focal topic asks us whether our civil law is effectively an accident of power balances, or else, could it be accountable to a built in law that pivots on first duties coeval with our humanity.

The issue becomes pivotal, once we ponder the premise that the typical, “natural” tendency of government is to open or veiled lawless oligarchy:

So, let us hear Cicero in his On The Republic, Bk 3 [c. 55 – 54 BC]:

{22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Republic, Bk 3

This, of course, is further reflected in his De Legibus, which lays out a framework:

With respect to the true principle of justice, many learned men have maintained that it springs from Law. I hardly know if their opinion be not correct, at least, according to their own definition; for “Law (say they) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary.” This, they think, is apparent from the converse of the proposition; because this same reason, when it [37]is confirmed and established in men’s minds, is the law of all their actions.

They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law, whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones.

We see in the Angelic Doctor, a broadening of the framework, elaborating four domains of law:

Thus, following Aquinas, we can see that arguably there is an intelligible core of law coeval with our responsible, rational, significantly free nature. This built-in law turns on inescapable, thus self-evident truths of justice and moral government, which rightly govern what courts may rule or parliaments legislate, per the premise of justice moderated by requisites of feasible order in a world that must reckon with the hardness of men’s hearts. Where, we are thus duty bound, morally governed creatures.

Hence, we come to the sense of duty attested to by sound conscience [“conscience is a law”], that breathes fire into what would otherwise be inert statements in dusty tomes. We may term these, by extension, the Ciceronian First Duties of Reason:

FIRST DUTIES OF RESPONSIBLE REASON

We can readily identify at least seven inescapable first duties of reason. “Inescapable,” as they are so antecedent to reasoning that even the objector implicitly appeals to them; i.e. they are self-evident. Namely, duties,

1 – to truth, 

2 – to right reason

3 – to prudence, 

4 – to sound conscience, 

5 – to neighbour; so also, 

6 – to fairness and

7 – justice 

x – etc.

[I add, Mar 12, for clarity:] {Of course, there is a linked but not equivalent pattern: bounded, error-prone rationality often tied to ill will and stubbornness or even closed mindedness; that’s why the study of right reason has a sub-study on fallacies and errors. That we seek to evade duties or may make errors does not overthrow the first duties of reason, which instead help us to detect and correct errors, as well as to expose our follies.}

Such built-in . . . thus, universal . . . law is not invented by parliaments, kings or courts, nor can these principles and duties be abolished by such; they are recognised, often implicitly as an indelible part of our evident nature. Hence, natural law,” coeval with our humanity, famously phrased in terms of “self-evident . . . rights . . . endowed by our Creator” in the US Declaration of Independence, 1776. (Cf. Cicero in De Legibus, c. 50 BC.) Indeed, it is on this framework that we can set out to soundly understand and duly balance rights, freedoms and duties; which is justice, the pivot of law.

The legitimate main task of government, then, is to uphold and defend the civil peace of justice through sound community order reflecting the built in, intelligible law of our nature. Where, as my right implies your duty a true right is a binding moral claim to be respected in life, liberty, honestly acquired property, innocent reputation etc. To so justly claim a right, one must therefore demonstrably be in the right.

Where, prudence can also be seen via Aristotle’s summary:  “. . . [who aptly] defined prudence as recta ratio agibilium, ‘right reason applied to practice.’ The emphasis on ‘right’ is important . . .  Prudence requires us to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong . . . If we mistake the evil for the good, we are not exercising prudence—in fact, we are showing our lack of it.”

Of course, we just saw a 400+ comment thread that saw objectors insistently, studiously evading the force of inescapability, where their objections consistently show that they cannot evade appealing to the same first duties that they would dismiss or suggest were so obscure and abstract that they cannot serve as a practical guide. The history of the modern civil rights movement once the print revolution, the civilisational ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of newspapers, bills, coffee houses etc had unleashed democratising forces speaks to the contrary. The absurdity of appealing to what one seeks to overthrow simply underscores its self evidence. But free, morally governed creatures are just that, free. Even, free to cling to manifest absurdities.

This approach, of course, sharply contrasts with the idea that law is in effect whatever those who control the legal presses issue under that heading; based on power balances and so in effect might and/or manipulation. Aquinas’ corrective should suffice to show that not all that is issued under colour of law is lawful, or even simply prudent towards preserving order in a world of the hardness of men’s hearts.

Yes, obviously, if we are governed by built-in law, that raises the question that there is a cosmic law-giver, qualified to do so not by mere sheer power but also by being inherently good and utterly wise. Such a root of reality also answers the Hume Guillotine and the Euthyphro dilemma: an inherently good and utterly wise, necessary and maximally great being root of reality would bridge IS and OUGHT in the source of all reality and would issue good and wise, intelligible built-in law.

What of Mathematics? The answer is, of course, that a core of Math is inherent in the framework of any possible world. So, this would extend that core of Math tied to sets, structures and quantities expressed in N,Z,Q,R,C,R* etc to any actual world. That answers Wigner’s puzzlement on the universal power of Math and it points to, who has power to create an actual world in which we have fine tuning towards C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life? Likewise, it is suggestive on the source of the language and algorithms found in D/RNA etc.

Lest we forget, here is Crick, to his son, March 19, 1953:

So, we have come full circle, to law as expressing ordering principles of the dynamic-stochastic physical world and those of the world of intelligent, rational, morally governed creatures. Surprise — NOT — the design thesis is central to both. END

PS: As a reminder, the McFaul dirty form colour revolution framework and SOCOM insurgency escalator

U/D Feb 14: Outlines on first principles of right reason:

Here, we see that a distinct A — I usually use a bright red ball on a table:

and contrast a red near-ball in the sky, Betelgeuse as it went through a surprise darkening (something we observed separately and independently, it was not a figment of imagination):

. . . is distinct from the rest of the world. A is itself i/l/o its characteristics of being, and it is distinct from whatever else is not A, hence we see that in w there is no x that is A and ~A and any y that is in W will either be A or not A but not both or neither. These three are core to logic: P/LOI, LNC, LEM.

We may extend to governing principles that we have duties toward — never mind whoever may disregard such (and thereby cause chaos):

U/D March 13: The challenge of building a worldview i/l/o the infinite regress issue:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Framing a ship:

. . . compare a wooden model aircraft:

. . . or a full scale, metal framework jet:

In short, there is always a foundational framework for any serious structure.

Comments
re KF at 104: 1. I know what abduction is. The article you linked to was a good summary. 2. You write, "My point is that [abduction] extends from forensics, science, history etc to grand worldviews inference." There are flaws with this argument, some of which I'll mention below. 3. The general idea is that abductive reasoning is dependent upon the acceptance of the truth of the facts, observation, etc. which go into an explanation, and those are always tentative and provisional, to some degree. "Forensics, science, history etc." are places where this is used. These are NOT like math, in which every step of the explanation is true, and has a truth likewise established by deduction from a beginning set of axioms. 4. Of course explanations which lead to contradictions are discarded. But again, these are provisional contradictions, not purely logical contradictions as are found in math. 5. You write, "9: This framework is manifest in science etc but extends to the study of reality and associated major worldviews options. So, it is inconsistent to accept for science etc but reject for worldviews analysis on comparative difficulties." I disagree. There is a major difference between the "empirical base" you mention in your paragraph 1 that we can access in forensics, science, history, etc. and that available for views about "reality and associated major worldviews options". Whenever you talk about the details about this you immediately start with a view of things (yours) that is not necessarily true and is considered differently by many people with different worldviews. 6. You conclude, "10: Thus, radical doubt on metaphysical reasoning as a whole is incoherent epistemologically and logically." Doubt about metaphysical reasoning is perfectly reasonable, given that by definition metaphysical reasoning doesn't have a large empirical base to rest on, but rather is associated with ideas in people's minds for which there is no consensus procedures for testing those ideas as there are forensics, science, history, etc. Calling it "radical doubt" is itself a worldview opinion of yours that is a subject for disagreement. It is just one of the ways that you dismiss the views of others. 7. And you add, " Though, this seems a common stance today for advocates of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers, showing yet again fundamental incoherence." Again, a standard, vacuous dismissal of other viewpoints. Even if someone is not an adherent to "evolutionary materialistic scientism" (me), your use of "fellow travellers" allows you to lump everyone who does not agree with you into the same boat.Viola Lee
February 8, 2021
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Seversky, while I am still focused elsewhere just now, I cannot but note:
Moral claims are not about the nature of observable reality – the way things are – they are about the way we should behave towards one another. They are about “ought” not “is”. To that extent, they are neither true nor false.
Let me comment stepwise: >> Moral claims are not about the nature of observable reality – the way things are –>> - first, the way things are is not confined to OBSERV[ation], many realities are empirically unobservable; they are of a different order in the logic of being. We see them with the mind's eye, not that of our physical bodies. - Where actually, our eyes are transducers, the actual seeing is just as mental, as mV potentials, ion flow gradients, synapses and pulse repetion frequencies in sets of neurons etc are worlds apart from an insightful, deeply interpreted vision of your world with intelligible entities in it. Denial of mental reality and ability of mind to access reality at least in part even through a glass darkly, is self-defeating. - Actually, you just made here a worldviews commitment to in effect your known evolutionary materialistic scientism. Something that is demonstrably not merely controversial but which in many ways is outright incoherent and so false - similarly, things can be not only physical objects and configurations but abstracta up to and including states of affairs etc. - in that context, a truth is a claim that accurately describes reality, what is the case about states of affairs, not merely physical objects and configurations. And on that, I was just reading a book and manifesto on how an artist sees and draws with powerful verisimilitude, the human figure and form, brimming over with stories in subtle action, reflecting intent and so much more . . . observation and its documentation is itself richly mental. A world of vision lurks there. - where, once there are free, responsible, rational, morally governed creatures so that justice is due balance of rights, freedoms and duties, we can and do have moral truths, accurate descriptions of duties, rights, freedoms, due balance etc. - of course, that due balance can be violated, creating a gap between current states of affairs and what ought to be the case, implying a need for correction where possible (i.e. there are prudential moral truths also). >> they are about the way we should behave towards one another.>> - can it be the case that there are particular ways that we SHOULD behave towards one another? Patently, yes, due balance of rights, freedoms and duties, which are manifestly intelligible. Therefore, there can be intelligible moral truths. - for example, I have often used as a key test case [based on a sad actual event] that it is the case that we ought not to kidnap, bind, sexually assault and murder a young child for one's pleasure. - I have for cause further held that this is a self-evident truth, i.e. once one is of maturity to understand s/he will recognise it as true, and necessarily so on pain of immediate absurdity on attempted denial. - moreover, this case implicitly embeds a world of duty in the community of creatures of our order, laying out rights, freedoms and duties with due balance. For, this is a case of that ever so instructive first duty, duty to neighbour. - Where the first duties being pointed to (as outlined in the OP) are inescapable, even objections such as this argument you are making implicitly pivot on them. Inescapable, so inescapably true, thus self-evident. True descriptions that it is the case that certain things are how the world should be but too often is not. >>They are about “ought” not “is”.>> - indeed, however, it can be the case that X ought to be so, whether or not X actually is so. >>To that extent, they are neither true nor false.>> - it can be the case that something X ought to be, - it can be the case that circumstances do or do not conform to X - it can be the case that we ought to acknowledge that moral claims can bind us to duty, but we may refuse to acknowledge their weight - it can be the case that such denial opens the door to spreading injustice via substitution of might and manipulation for recognition of truths about due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities - it can be the case that such a substitution pivots on refusal to recognise that such duties express a built in law that is coeval with our humanity and governs our rational freedom, pointing to its source in the root of reality. That being, post Hume and Euthyphro, the sole locus where is and ought can be bridged. KFkairosfocus
February 8, 2021
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VL, argument by best current explanation, or abduction, is a major frame of inductive argument, modern sense. My point is that such extends from forensics, science, history etc to grand worldviews inference. I am busy just now with a new lockdown here on emergence of a fresh cluster of CV-19 cases so I will come back later. KF PS: Let me take slower: 1: Empirical base, a body of established facts, observations, predictions -- borders advance with time (hence, current . . . ): {facts f1,f2 . . . | observations o1, o2 . . . | predictions p1, p2 . . .}, call this B 2: Often, this is puzzling, and needs a reasonable account, an EXPLANATION, for which there are competing cases: e1, e2 . . . en 3: some ek => B is an explanation, supported by the breadth of B, where if ek then B, the question is how credible is ek. 4: Here, principle of explosion applies, across time: "we may eliminate those yielding self contradictions or falsities on trying to imply our body of observations and general facts." That is, it is a necessary condition of truth for ek that it consistently, reliably implies truth, not falsehood. Incoherence and counter-factual implications falsify ek. 5: Thus the triple comparative difficulties and/or reliability test, factual adequacy, coherence, explanatory power [neither ad hoc nor simplistic] 6: The best current explanation will be empirically reliable, coherent and balanced, superior to alternatives from the candidates, e1, e2 . . . en. 7: ek entailing falsity implies its falsehood, entailing contradiction implies incoherence thus falsehood, we have a logical criterion for truth. 8: Ability to sustain factual adequacy as the empirical base grows shows reliability and is a strong test, common in science. Best explanations will be simple enough not to be an ad hoc patchwork, but powerful and reliable across time. They will be superior to other candidates. 9: This framework is manifest in science etc but extends to the study of reality and associated major worldviews options. So, it is inconsistent to accept for science etc but reject for worldviews analysis on comparative difficulties. 10: Thus, radical doubt on metaphysical reasoning as a whole is incoherent epistemologically and logically. Though, this seems a common stance today for advocates of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travvellers, showing yet again fundamental incoherence.kairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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John_a_designer/101
A moral subjectivist believes there are NO OBJECTIVE MORAL VALUES.
That's true. For those who do believe in objective moral values, perhaps they could point to where they are stored and in what form. Were they part of the basic stuff of the Universe when it formed 13.8 billion years ago or were they added later and, if so, from where and by whom?
Again that means there are no real interpersonal moral obligations, therefore, there is no basis for universal human rights.
No, it doesn't. In what way are the interpersonal moral obligations we assume voluntarily towards each other any less "real" than those imposed on us by some external force or being? The Christian God, for example, does not provide a detailed rationale for His moral prescriptions but if they were the product of reason then what is to prevent us as rational beings - made in imago dei - from doing the same?
They’re the one who are arguing that nobody really has any rights.
Strawman. We do not argue that there are no moral rights just that we can decide them for ourselves rather than have them imposed on us by someone else. Are you saying you would not know right from wrong without someone else to tell you which was which, because that is what it sounds like?
Moral subjectivism then is a very irrational self-refuting moral perspective. I have every right to criticize that kind of thinking, even if I doesn’t come across as being nice or “civil.” I am not very patient with people who show up online peddling nothing but nonsense.
Moral subjectivism does not mean "anything goes". It means that we all look inside ourselves and decide what matters for ourselves, those we love and the people we live alongside in society. Since the vast majority of people have the same basic needs and interests, we should be able to converge - eventually - on some sort of common morality. It's a lot messier than have a neat set of rules handed down on tablets of stone and it doesn't offer the certainty that some people crave but that doesn't mean we can't do it if we put our collective minds to it.
Please notice that those who believe morality is subjective are making a self-refuting argument. They are arguing that there are no true and “objective” moral values and obligations. But the premise there are no true and “objective moral values and obligations is a universal truth claim about morality. But how can subjective opinions and beliefs be universal?
Please notice that those who claim that morality has some sort of objective existence - that it exists independent of those it is intended to govern - have been entirely unable to substantiate that claim. Indeed, all too often it looks like special pleading on behalf of the claimants own beliefs. When people here talk about an objective morality that overrides all others, they are clearly not talking about Muslim or Bhuddist or Hindu moralities.
Basically they are arguing, it is true there is no moral truth.
That depends on what you mean by "truth". As I've said before, I go by the correspondence theory of truth which holds that our claims or propositions or statements about reality are true to the extent they are observed to correspond to reality they purport to describe or explain. Moral claims are not about the nature of observable reality - the way things are - they are about the way we should behave towards one another. They are about "ought" not "is". To that extent, they are neither true nor false.Seversky
February 7, 2021
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Bornagain77/89
Too funny! Viola Lee and Seversky, who are the ones who are denying the reality of our free will choices, are acting as if I had the free will choice to believe otherwise, i.e. to believe that I don’t really have free will.
What do you mean by "free will"? Is it the ability to make a choice between two or more options that are not subject in any way to external influences or does it also require the ability to actualize whatever choice is made? In other words, if I choose to become a Jedi Knight but am unable do actually become one because they are fictional and do not exist as such in reality in this Universe (apart from in the Star Wars movies), is that sufficient for "free will". As another example, I know that I did not consciously choose my sexuality. I did not sit down one day and carefully weigh up the pros and cons of heterosexuality or homosexuality and finally decide "I think I will be straight". No, what happened was that at a certain point, I just began noticing and reacting to girls in a way I hadn't previously. I'm pretty sure I could not become homosexual now just by an effort of will and I suspect it's the same for most if not everyone here. What price free will here? There is also, as has been pointed out many times before, the Biblical account of Peter's triple denial of Christ even though he had been specifically warned beforehand by Jesus that this is what would happen. That is pretty clear anecdotal evidence that we do not have free will. Speaking personally, I experience the exercise of free will but it is not absolute. I, like everyone else, was formed in part by influences over which I had no control and was not even aware of a the time so the question is not whether or not I actually have free will but to what extent I have it.Seversky
February 7, 2021
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A moral subjectivist believes there are NO OBJECTIVE MORAL VALUES. Again that means there are no real interpersonal moral obligations, therefore, there is no basis for universal human rights. That is their perspective not mine. I would argue that they have rights even if they don’t believe that. They’re the one who are arguing that nobody really has any rights. Moral subjectivism then is a very irrational self-refuting moral perspective. I have every right to criticize that kind of thinking, even if I doesn’t come across as being nice or “civil.” I am not very patient with people who show up online peddling nothing but nonsense. The purpose of my life is to help make a better world. However, you can’t make a better world if there is no moral truth or no real basis for universal human rights. So, moral subjectivism is a morally and intellectually bankrupt way of thinking that is based on egocentric self-righteousness that cannot be defended rationally or logically. As I have pointed out here before it’s self-refuting.
Please notice that those who believe morality is subjective are making a self-refuting argument. They are arguing that there are no true and “objective” moral values and obligations. But the premise there are no true and “objective moral values and obligations is a universal truth claim about morality. But how can subjective opinions and beliefs be universal?
Basically they are arguing, it is true there is no moral truth. This is logic 101. You don’t have an argument if you begin with a self-refuting premise. If you fail to posit a self-evidently true or factually true premise your argument fails on logical grounds. Logical contradictions can’t be true. Moral subjectivism fails because it is based on a self-refuting, therefore, irrational claims. Actually, it’s a subjective (or a relativistic “group-think morality”) based on egocentric self-righteousness that’s being used by the secular progressive left to justify immorality, intolerance and contempt for ones fellow man (people who adhere to a religious or traditionalist “conservative” world view.) But if it’s subjective why would you feel compelled to try to convince anyone else that it’s true? (Again that is logically self-refuting.) Obviously what is “true for you” is not necessarily true for anyone else. Moral subjectivism then is not based on reason but on rationalization. And, your rationalization does not refute that there really is objective moral truth and, therefore, a solid basis for universal human rights. Truthfully, irrational egocentric moral subjectivism offers no way to improve the world.john_a_designer
February 7, 2021
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Addendum to 5 above: Of course I accept that we try to figure out the best explanation for things. However this is a human activity different from logical deduction in mathematical systems. We use logical deduction, but the propositions with which we deduce are not necessarily certain the way they are in math.Viola Lee
February 7, 2021
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At 97, KF asks a bunch of questions. I like questions, usually. 1. "VL, do you believe in the universal validity of core mathematics, why or why not?" I don't totally accept everything in your article, but I do accept your conclusion that "As a result, we have good reason to expect that mathematical reasoning and core entities will in many cases behighly relevant to and have powerful predictive power for our common world" I think it is obvious that our universe can be described with great precision by mathematics. However there are some interesting things Wigner said in his essay that I posted about recently, but I'll move on and see what else you have to say. 2. " Do you accept that deductive arguments can chain to essentially any length validly? In such a chain a->b->c -> . . . n, if a is true, what is the status of n?" Yes. I'm a mathematician, and a big fan of of deductive arguments. If a is true and all the implications are true, then n is true. 3. "Do you or do you not accept that if p –> [q AND ~q] then p must be false, why or why not?" Of course. This is the core idea in proof by contradiction. 4. "In this context, do you acknowledge that deductive chains can be used in reverse as inferences to best explanation, where of competing antecedents [explanations] e1, e2 . . . en, we may eliminate those yielding self contradictions or falsities on trying to imply our body of observations and general facts, making predictions: {facts f1,f2 . . . | observations o1, o2 . . . | predictions p1, p2 . . .}, why or why not? " That sentence is too messy and unclear: perhaps an example would help. To use a deductive chain in reverse you have to be sure that the p -> q that you are assuming is in fact logically valid. "Inferences to best explanation" starts to bring in facts and observations about the real world, not pure math, and then you get all sorts of questions about whether the facts and observations are true in the same way mathematical statements are unequivocally true or false. The rest of your questions contain all sorts of assumptions and lack of clarity and specificity. For instance, 5. "Why do you reject legitimacy of scientific, historical, forensic etc reasoning?" I have no idea what you're referring to about me. All those things are not purely deductive, and don't really relate to 2) and 3) above. Of course I accept that we try figure out the best explanation for things. However this is a human activity different from logical deduction in mathematical systems. 6. "Why have you dismissed such reasoning regarding core nature of reality?" I don't think you can provide reasoning regarding the core nature of reality that is equivalent to what math can provide, as per 2) and 3) above. 7. "If you accept Darwin’s monkey brain argument or the like, how do you avoid self-referential incoherence when you claim that certain things are true or false rather than simply your own particular opinion?" I don't know what "Darwin's monkey brain" argument is. I suspect you are referring to materialism, and I am not a materialist.Viola Lee
February 7, 2021
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Here is a premise that I regularly use in my arguments, including the ones I have been making here on this thread: Subjective beliefs and/or opinions are not a sufficient basis for interpersonal moral obligations. Is that self-evidently true or not? I can argue that it is. And if that’s true I can further argue that not only is there but there MUST BE an objective basis for not only interpersonal moral obligations but universal human rights-- which are really interpersonal moral obligations writ large.john_a_designer
February 7, 2021
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VL, do you believe in the universal validity of core mathematics, why or why not? Do you accept that deductive arguments can chain to essentially any length validly? In such a chain a->b->c -> . . . n, if a is true, what is the status of n? Do you or do you not accept that if p --> [q AND ~q] then p must be false, why or why not? In this context, do you acknowledge that deductive chains can be used in reverse as inferences to best explanation, where of competing antecedents [explanations] e1, e2 . . . en, we may eliminate those yielding self contradictions or falsities on trying to imply our body of observations and general facts, making predictions: {facts f1,f2 . . . | observations o1, o2 . . . | predictions p1, p2 . . .}, why or why not? In this light, can we then often select a best [current] explanation e_b, such that it is superior on factual adequacy, coherence, explanatory power [neither simplistic nor ad hoc], why or why not? If not, then why do you reject legitimacy of scientific, historical, forensic etc reasoning? If so, then why have you dismissed such reasoning regarding core nature of reality? If you accept Darwin's monkey brain argument or the like, how do you avoid self-referential incoherence when you claim that certain things are true or false rather than simply your own particular opinion? KFkairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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seversky:
In my experience, he is only interested in science insofar as it can be interpreted as supporting his religious presuppositions.
And that is exactly what you do, seversky. Except for the fact that you are not interested in science.ET
February 7, 2021
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At 93, KF writes, "VL, on what basis of warrant do you believe we have free will, what do you mean by such free will (given rhetoric of “compatibilism”) and how do you found that free will in the basis — root — for our existence? KF" I experience both my consciousness and my sense of making choices as experiential givens, and I start from there. I don't believe that we can know much about the metaphysical ground of existence, and I particularly don't believe that we could capture that metaphysical ground in words. Therefore, my "warrant" for my belief in free will is that I choose to so believe. I choose to live my life as if I am responsible for my actions. Call it faith, if you will, which I think is more reasonable than thinking we know more than we can about the issue. I recognize that those who think this issue can be resolved by logic (which I don't) will see my reliance on choice as a justification for believing in free will as circular. But belief by faith is a mainstay of all (most) religions, so even though my beliefs are not embedded in any particular religious traditions (being informed by many, I think) I still am not remiss in choosing to have faith in certain understandings about humankind and the world as a whole.Viola Lee
February 7, 2021
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Seversky, last time I checked, denies the existence of free will altogether, but VL does not. VL: "NOTE EXTREMELY WELL: I am not denying the existence of libertarian free will." Apparently VL just tries to have his cake and eat it to. VL, says that the closing of the free will loop hole merely means, "we,, are capable of making non-determined choices, which is a weak form of free will."
What I am saying that the “closing of the free will loophole” doesn’t establish that our human free will exists. The closing of the free will loophole is strong evidence that the universe, and thus us, are not superdetermined. That means that there is support for the idea that human beings, embedded in the quantum world as we are, are capable of making non-determined choices, which is a weak form of free will. However this capability would still be subject to the world of quantum events, of which our physical selves are a part, which derives its non-determined nature from the probabilistic nature of QM.
Well oh goody, we are up to at least an honest confession of "a weak form of free will." One wonders if this 'weak form of free will' allowed VL to choose to write that particular sentence or if the 'probabilistic nature of QM dictated that he write that particular sentence? :) Whatever theoretical hair VL is trying to split with this 'weak form of free will' that he allows for I have no idea, (frankly I think he is just trying to BS his way out of the mess he is currently in with free will and QM), but what I do know is that, (in regards to the probabilistic nature of QM that VL is appealing to in order to try to find a workaround to the 'strong' free will that allows us to write sentences and choose measurement settings in QM), and as I already pointed out in post 89, via Weinberg, “In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure,,, Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,,’ Or should I write it as such? "NOTE EXTREMELY WELL: “In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure,,, Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,," Again, VL's argument from "the probabilistic nature of QM" against free will, and in so far as it can even be called a coherent argument against free will in the first place, fails big time!bornagain77
February 7, 2021
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VL, on what basis of warrant do you believe we have free will, what do you mean by such free will (given rhetoric of "compatibilism") and how do you found that free will in the basis -- root -- for our existence? KFkairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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BA writes, "Viola Lee and Seversky, who are the ones who are denying the reality of our free will choices, ..." You don't read very well, BA. I am not denying the reality of free will. I believe we have free will, and have said that a number of times in previous threads. What I am saying that the "closing of the free will loophole" doesn't establish that our human free will exists. The closing of the free will loophole is strong evidence that the universe, and thus us, are not superdetermined. That means that there is support for the idea that human beings, embedded in the quantum world as we are, are capable of making non-determined choices, which is a weak form of free will. However this capability would still be subject to the world of quantum events, of which our physical selves are a part, which derives its non-determined nature from the probabilistic nature of QM. This doesn't establish libertarian free will and the existence of an immaterial free will completely independent of events at the QM level. That would be a different issue. NOTE EXTREMELY WELL: I am not denying the existence of libertarian free will. I am focusing on making it clear that Zeilinger's closing of the free will loophole does not establish the existence of libertarian free will, which is the conclusion you want to draw. As Seversky said, you are "only interested in science insofar as it can be interpreted as supporting his religious presuppositions." Interpreting the closing of the free-will loophole as supporting libertarian free will is an example of such an unfounded interpretation.Viola Lee
February 7, 2021
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BA77, we need no great argument to see that if we lack freedom to think for ourselves on the merits, our whole intellectual life is cast into utter discredit. That alone should long since have swept the board of those who have been putting up theories that if taken seriously discredit their own thought. By the mere fact of arguing or at least trying to persuade, they prove that not even they take their theories seriously. Why should we? KF PS: Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. Cf. here on (and esp here) on the self-refutation by self-falsifying self referential incoherence and on linked amorality.]
kairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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F/N: Read a commentary on the playout of the agit prop game https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/02/rigging_the_election_for_china_and_profit_.html >>February 7, 2021 Rigging the Election for China and Profit By Clarice Feldman Emerald Robinson tweets: @EmeraldRobinson The corporate media: "People who say there was a shadow campaign to rig the 2020 election are conspiracy theorists!" Time Magazine: "Read our story on the shadow campaign to rig the 2020 election!" She’s referring to the most astonishing story of the week, Molly Ball’s article in Time: ”The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign that saved the 2020 election,” a sordid tale of how Big Tech, BLM, organized labor and big business, particularly the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, colluded to defeat Donald J. Trump’s reelection. The participants justified their behavior as “saving democracy.” Was this a “modified limited hangout” in the old Watergate sense? An effort to undo the public perception that the election was illegally stolen with an alternative that there was an unsavory but legitimate perception management by powerful people and institutions to defeat the man who had captured the angst of the middle class and worked to improve their lives? Or were members of the cabal playing neener neener on the voters they bested to further dispirit them and keep them from tipping over the chessboard they set up to wipe out the pawns? . . . >> KFkairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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In 81 Viola Lee states,
I don’t think he (BA77) really wanted to understand what I was saying.
In 82 Seversky, our resident atheist, steps in to support VL and and states,
It’s nothing personal. In my experience, he is only interested in science insofar as it can be interpreted as supporting his religious presuppositions.
Too funny! Viola Lee and Seversky, who are the ones who are denying the reality of our free will choices, are acting as if I had the free will choice to believe otherwise, i.e. to believe that I don't really have free will. The blatantly self-refuting logic inherent in Seversky and Viola Lee's complaint about me refusing to accept their supposedly rational "argument' against free will is humorously captured in this following quote by Jerry Coyne,
THE ILLUSION OF FREE WILL - Sam Harris - 2012 Excerpt: "Free will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it." - Jerry Coyne - per Sam Harris org
That statement should literally be the very definition of a 'self-refuting' logical fallacy, And I am sure Coyne made that statement with a completely straight face,, :) The fallacy in Coyne, Viola Lee, and Seversky's argument against the reality of free will really needs no explaining, but anyways, as Martin Cothran explained, "The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument (against free will) convincing is if they are not true."
The Medial Pre-Frontal Cortex Did It: Sam Harris’s Free Will Martin Cothran - November 9, 2012 Excerpt: There is something ironic about the position of thinkers like Harris on issues like this: they claim that their position is the result of the irresistible necessity of logic (in fact, they pride themselves on their logic). Their belief is the consequent, in a ground/consequent relation between their evidence and their conclusion. But their very stated position is that any mental state — including their position on this issue — is the effect of a physical, not logical cause. By their own logic, it isn’t logic that demands their assent to the claim that free will is an illusion, but the prior chemical state of their brains. The only condition under which we could possibly find their argument convincing is if they are not true. The claim that free will is an illusion requires the possibility that minds have the freedom to assent to a logical argument, a freedom denied by the claim itself. It is an assent that must, in order to remain logical and not physiological, presume a perspective outside the physical order. https://evolutionnews.org/2012/11/sam_harriss_fre/In 67 Viola Lee states,
And as J B S Haldane put the irresolvable problem for atheists way back in 1932, "In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.”
“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” - J B S Haldane - “When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.
And as C S Lewis put it, "unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins",,,
“One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.”? - C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry (aka the Argument from Reason)
In short, VL and Sev are trying to argue that I am not being reasonable, yet their denial of free will completely undermines our ability to reason in a coherent fashion in the first place. i.e. It is a completely insane position, As Dr. Egnor quipped, "Someday, I predict, there will be a considerable psychiatric literature on the denial of free will. It’s essentially a delusion dressed up as science. To insist that your neurotransmitters completely control your choices is no different than insisting that your television or your iphone control your thoughts. It’s crazy."
JERRY COYNE JUST CAN’T GIVE UP DENYING FREE WILL Coyne’s denial of free will, based on determinism, is science denial and junk metaphysics MICHAEL EGNOR - APRIL 27, 2020 Excerpt: "Someday, I predict, there will be a considerable psychiatric literature on the denial of free will. It’s essentially a delusion dressed up as science. To insist that your neurotransmitters completely control your choices is no different than insisting that your television or your iphone control your thoughts. It’s crazy." https://mindmatters.ai/2020/04/jerry-coyne-just-cant-give-up-denying-free-will/
Moreover, as VL and Sev themselves demonstrated in their comments that assumed that I had the free will necessary to change my mind about their self-refuting argument against the reality of free will,,,, VL and Sev themselves can't live their lives consistently as if they really had no free will. ,,, Nor can anyone else,,,
Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: This is an amazing case of Orwellian doublethink. Minsky says people are "forced to maintain" the conviction of free will, even when their own worldview tells them that "it's false." When I teach these concepts in the classroom, an example my students find especially poignant is Flesh and Machines by Rodney Brooks, professor emeritus at MIT. Brooks writes that a human being is nothing but a machine -- a "big bag of skin full of biomolecules" interacting by the laws of physics and chemistry. In ordinary life, of course, it is difficult to actually see people that way. But, he says, "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
In what should be needless to say, if you can't live your life consistently as if your worldview were actually true, then your worldview can't possibly reflect reality as it really is, but your worldview must instead be based on a delusion,
Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 - Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true.?Conclusion: Atheism is false.?http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
VL tries to argue, "But AHA, I'm not arguing that are free will choices are determined, I am arguing that quantum events are probabilistic and indeterminate and even arguing that "if we assume that we have a certain amount of free will, then, subject to certain other assumptions, elementary particles must have free will too.”
The correct conclusion is that the results of quantum mechanics are real: entanglement, probabilistic events, etc., and that the indeterminacy of the world starts at the very most fundamental level, and thus we can conclude that we also are not fully determined. However, the article posted at mit’s site that I linked to above said “So what does Conway and Kochen’s Free Will theorem state? The theorem states that, if we assume that we have a certain amount of free will, then, subject to certain other assumptions, elementary particles must have free will too.” I recommend the article. That is quantum events may provide the core basis for our being able to make non-determined choices, but it is an unjustified leap of a huge magnitude to go from the indeterminacy of the universe embedded in quantum events to the libertarian free will that BA is invoking.
Now, of course, VL does not specify where the dividing line of his panpsychicic belief of believing particles have free will, between us having a 'certain amount of free will' ourselves, exactly is, but he assures us that, whatever that dividing line may be, it is a "unjustified leap of a huge magnitude to go from the indeterminacy of the universe embedded in quantum events to the libertarian free will that BA is invoking." I think this gives new meaning to the phrase 'trying to have your cake and eat it to'. VL is caught between a rock and hard place. He wants to deny the reality of our free will altogether, yet he is forced, because of advances in quantum mechanics, to admit that we at least have a 'certain amount of free will' ourselves. Yet, I guess (since VL is hardly being clear in his argument), that VL is now trying to argue that this 'certain amount of free will' that we have is merely the result of the prior indeterminate, probabilistic, and even, according to VL, "elementary particles must have free will too.”. As should be needless to say, this IS NOT a rational argument. This is a VERY desperate attempt to find something, anything, to deny the reality of our own free will, i.e. to deny the reality of our own immaterial mind. Moreover, there is a 'small' scientific problem with VL trying to claim that our free will choices are merely the result of the probabilistic, indeterminate, and even the 'free will', state of the particles themselves. Namely, the particles themselves do not even exist until we ourselves choose what to measure. As the following 'Wheeler Delayed Choice experiment' that was done with atoms explained, " "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it,"
Reality doesn’t exist until we measure it, (Delayed Choice) quantum experiment confirms - Mind = blown. - FIONA MACDONALD - 1 JUN 2015 Excerpt: "It proves that measurement is everything. At the quantum level, reality does not exist if you are not looking at it," lead researcher and physicist Andrew Truscott said in a press release. http://www.sciencealert.com/reality-doesn-t-exist-until-we-measure-it-quantum-experiment-confirms
And as John Wheeler himself explained, “We have become participators in the existence of the universe. We have no right to say that the past exists independent of the act of observation.”
“We have become participators in the existence of the universe. We have no right to say that the past exists independent of the act of observation.” – John Wheeler
Even Weinberg himself, an atheist, admitted that, in the instrumentalist approach to quantum mechanics, "In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure,,, Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made,,,’
The_Trouble_with_Quantum_Mechanics__by_Steven_Weinberg Excerpt: The introduction of probability into the principles of physics was disturbing to past physicists, but the trouble with quantum mechanics is not that it involves probabilities. We can live with that. The trouble is that in quantum mechanics the way that wave functions change with time is governed by an equation, the Schrödinger equation, that does not involve probabilities. It is just as deterministic as Newton’s equations of motion and gravitation. That is, given the wave function at any moment, the Schrödinger equation will tell you precisely what the wave function will be at any future time. There is not even the possibility of chaos, the extreme sensitivity to initial conditions that is possible in Newtonian mechanics. So if we regard the whole process of measurement as being governed by the equations of quantum mechanics, and these equations are perfectly deterministic, how do probabilities get into quantum mechanics?,,, The instrumentalist approach is a descendant of the Copenhagen interpretation, but instead of imagining a boundary beyond which reality is not described by quantum mechanics, it rejects quantum mechanics altogether as a description of reality. There is still a wave function, but it is not real like a particle or a ?eld. Instead it is merely an instrument that provides predictions of the probabilities of various outcomes when measurements are made. It seems to me that the trouble with this approach is not only that it gives up on an ancient aim of science: to say what is really going on out there. It is a surrender of a particularly unfortunate kind. In the instrumentalist approach, we have to assume, as fundamental laws of nature, the rules (such as the Born rule I mentioned earlier) for using the wave function to calculate the probabilities of various results when humans make measurements. Thus humans are brought into the laws of nature at the most fundamental level. According to Eugene Wigner, a pioneer of quantum mechanics, “it was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness.”11 Thus the instrumentalist approach turns its back on a vision that became possible after Darwin, of a world governed by impersonal physical laws that control human behavior along with everything else. It is not that we object to thinking about humans. Rather, we want to understand the relation of humans to nature, not just assuming the character of this relation by incorporating it in what we suppose are nature’s fundamental laws, but rather by deduction from laws that make no explicit reference to humans. We may in the end have to give up this goal, but I think not yet. Some physicists who adopt an instrumentalist approach argue that the probabilities we infer from the wave function are objective probabilities, independent of whether humans are making a measurement. I don’t find this tenable. In quantum mechanics these probabilities do not exist until people choose what to measure, such as the spin in one or another direction. Unlike the case of classical physics, a choice must be made, because in quantum mechanics not everything can be simultaneously measured. As Werner Heisenberg realized, a particle cannot have, at the same time, both a definite position and a definite velocity. The measuring of one precludes the measuring of the other. Likewise, if we know the wave function that describes the spin of an electron we can calculate the probability that the electron would have a positive spin in the north direction if 4/8 that were measured, or the probability that the electron would have a positive spin in the east direction if that were measured, but we cannot ask about the probability of the spins being found positive in both directions because there is no state in which an electron has a definite spin in two different directions. https://www.coursehero.com/file/78050243/The-Trouble-with-Quantum-Mechanics-by-Steven-Weinberg-The-New-York-Review-of-Bookspdf/
So thus VL may try to appeal to the indeterminate and probabilistic nature of quantum events, (and may even try to claim that the particles themselves have a certain amount of free will), but the particles themselves do not even exist until WE ourselves choose what to measure. In short, our free will choices take primacy over whatever indeterminate, probabilistic, and/or free will choices, VL tries to invoke for the particles themselves. In conclusion, VL's argument against our free will, in so far as it can even be considered a rational argument against us having free will, fails big time. One final note, might I suggest that VL and Sev use their free will choices wisely and stop fighting against the God Who has created them?
Deuteronomy 30:19 I am now giving you the choice between life and death, between God's blessing and God's curse, and I call heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Choose life.
bornagain77
February 7, 2021
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PPS: Let's mark up using the magic of cognitive dissonance driven confession by projection to the despised other, i/l/o first duties: https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ >>There was a conspiracy unfolding behind the scenes,>> - now they have won and are about to run a show trial, they are going to whitewash the conspiracy that was being complained of; trying to shape-shift what a conspiracy is - duly note this when next you hear sneering about conspiracy theories >> one that both curtailed the [expected post election] protests and coordinated the resistance from CEOs.>> - the plutocrats and red guards with backers were all in on this dirty form McFaul colour revolution, the same pointed out for months. >> Both surprises were the result of an informal alliance between left-wing activists and business titans. >> - the confession >>The pact was formalized in a terse, little-noticed joint statement of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and AFL-CIO published on Election Day. Both sides would come to see it as a sort of implicit bargain–>> - in short the actors are now mask-less, on stage >>inspired by the summer’s massive, sometimes destructive racial-justice protests–>> - they refuse to admit that red guard riots designed to create crisis were riots - contrast, how an isolated incident of a fringe is exploited 24/7 to project not mere riot but insurrection and indelible stigma to be purged, Reichstag fire style >>in which the forces of labor came together with the forces of capital to keep the peace>> - when H says peace he means war . . . The White Rose Martyrs >> and oppose Trump’s assault on democracy.>> - they just confessed their intent by projection to the despised, scapegoated other >>The handshake between business and labor was just one component of a vast, cross-partisan campaign to protect the election>> - inverted confession, i.e. we see admission of the manipulation of an election >>–an extraordinary shadow effort>> - 4g war is war in the shadows, here, a McFaul dirty form colour revolution [I add to OP to refresh minds] >>dedicated not to winning the vote>> - just, distorting it >> but to ensuring it would be free and fair, credible and uncorrupted.>> - an obvious chain of turnabout projection big lies, there is simply no credible evidence of Mr Trump's campaign setting out on electoral fraud. >>For more than a year, a loosely organized coalition of operatives scrambled to shore up America’s institutions>> - the year long campaign to open the door toeffectively uncontrolled uncontrolled mail in ballots, 3rd party ballot harvesting and frustration of scrutineering and proper chain of custody on ballots >> as they came under simultaneous attack from a remorseless pandemic and an autocratically inclined President. >> - the would be entrenched lawless oligarchs just painted an inadvertent portrait of themselves by projection to the despised other >>Though much of this activity took place on the left,>> - it was rooted in marxist, culture form critical theory, red guard tactics and agit prop etc. Guilty as charged and mapped at the time >>it was separate from the Biden campaign>> - plausible deniability >>and crossed ideological lines, with crucial contributions by nonpartisan and conservative actors.>> - the elites have been pervaded with the crooked yardstick ideologies across nominal lines, forming a corrupt swamp - others were manipulated face cards or are compromised and subject to extortion and intimidation >>The scenario the shadow campaigners were desperate to stop was not a Trump victory.>> - another big lie imposed by cynical power >> It was an election so calamitous that no result could be discerned at all,>> - they wanted to roadblock constitutional protections that would break corrupt processes >>a failure of the central act of democratic self-governance that has been a hallmark of America since its founding.>> - in short, confession of coup by manipulated election. U/D: AT's de-spun summary is telling, naming names: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2021/02/rigging_the_election_for_china_and_profit_.html
Here’s a brief summary of the most significant of them, devoid of the leftist spackle of the author. Business, the AFL-CIO, and Black Lives Matter worked together to change voting systems and laws, to get hundreds of millions of dollars to make voting less secure and worked with social media to keep the Biden message upfront, the Trump message buried and the country terrified of widespread violence if the president won re-election. (4.6 percent of people who voted for Biden said in a poll that they would not have done so, had the information about Hunter Biden’s corruption not been scotched by the media.) The participants see themselves as the protectors of democracy and want their story told, the author explains. Initial moves were coordinated by Mike Podhorzer, senior adviser to Richard Trumka, president of the AFl-CIO. He saw in the COVID-19 reaction an opportunity to bypass normal, more secure election procedures, and working with Planned Parenthood, Indivisible, and Move On, “progressive data geeks and strategists, representatives of donors and foundations, state-level grassroots organizers, Working Families Party, racial-justice activists and others, to manipulate the election procedures. In time, they persuaded Congress to steer COVID relief funds for election administration, a feat aided by the Leadership Conference of Civil and Human Rights. When the $400 million grant proved insufficient for their means, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative dropped into their hands another $300 million, which the National Vote at Home Institute used to advise secretaries of state on the new, insecure voting procedures. (Chan is the wife of Mark Zuckerberg -- Facebook’s chairman, CEO and controlling shareholder). Having altered the rules, the next step was taken by the Voter Participation Center, which sent out ballot applications to 15 million people “in key states” and urged people not to “wait until election day.” ”In the end, nearly half the electorate cast ballots by mail in 2020, practically a revolution in how people vote.” But rigging election procedures was only a part of the cabal’s work. They also worked at pressuring media platforms to remove content or accounts which in their view “spread disinformation.” Among those pressured to silence opposition views were Mark Zuckerberg and Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey. Huge efforts were undertaken to persuade voters that the final results would not be known on election night until 70% of the public was made to believe that Biden won, including media election analysts.
I wonder what those who were deriding our warnings while this was live have to say now? KFkairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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F/N: We are at such a sad pass that we need to go back to first principles and rebuild our understanding. Starting with first duties as expressions of the law of our nature and with bitter lessons of largely forgotten or ignored history. KF PS: One of those lessons, from Ac 27:
[On Luke's microcosm on the ship of state, Jan 1, 2013:] Entrenched highly ideological orthodoxies — and this includes successful revolutionaries, whether on institutional or community scale — that control resource flows to their benefit and which exert enormous power in institutions and society [I was speaking here about today's evolutionary materialism dominated science], tend to be very resistant to what is new and unsettling to their comfort zones and interests. Where there has been indoctrination and polarisation, we can see this multiplied by the problem of lack of logical thinking ability and sheer lack of awareness of the true state of the balance of warrant on the merits of facts and evidence. The perceived heretic, then is a threat to be fought off, marginalised, discredited and if necessary destroyed. By any and all means, fair or foul. [--> this was 2013] (I find the obsession with suggestions of a threat of religious subversion of [scientific, political, education, media and cultural] institutions long since subverted by radical secularists slightly amusing but quite sad in the end. The key threat is unaccountable, out of control power in the hands of elites prone to corruption, not that this once happened with religious elites. In the past 100 years, we saw major secularist movements and neopagan movements of political messianism that did much the same to horrific cost. And the welfare state of the past generation has not been a whole lot better. [Just ask the ghosts of the dozens of millions who have been aborted for convenience.]) Where is there a solution? Frankly, at this stage, I think things are going to have to crash so badly and some elites are going to have to be so discredited by the associated spreading failure, that media propaganda tactics cannot cover it up anymore. My model for that comes from one of the red-flag sources that will give some of the objectors [to the design theory movement in science] the vapours. Acts 27. What, how dare you cite that, that . . . that . . . textbook for theocratic tyranny by the ignorant, insane, stupid and/or wicked followers of that bronze age misogynistic homophobic genocidal racist war god! (Do you hear how your agit-prop talking points are enmeshing you in the classic trap of believing your own propaganda?) Let’s start with, Paul of Tarsus, c. AD 59, was not in the Bronze Age but was an appellate prisoner in chains on early Imperial era grain ships having a hard time making way from the Levant and Asia Minor to Rome, in the second case ending up in a bay on Crete. What followed is a classic exercise in the follies of manipulated democracy, a case study that will well repay study in our time.
It was late in the sailing season, and the merchant-owner was worried about his ship in an open bay at Fair Havens, given what winter storms can do. The passengers were not too impressed by the nearby settlements as a wintering place. (Sailing stopped in Autumn and opened back up in Spring. [--> EVERYONE knew why, the ships of that day could not bear up the storms of winter, and as time wore on in the fall, sailing became increasingly dangerous]) The key technico, the kubernete — steersman, more or less like a pilot of an airliner — knew where his bread was buttered, and by whom. In the middle was a Centurion of the elite messenger corps. We are at ship’s council, and Paul, in chains, is suggesting that the suggestion to venture our with a favourable wind to try to make it to a more commodious port down-coast was excessively risky not only to boat but life. The financial and technical talking heads and the appeal of comfort allowed him to be easily marginalised and dismissed. Then we saw a gentle south breeze, that would have allowed a reach down the coast. (The technicos probably knew this could be a precursor to a storm, but were not going to cut across the dominant view. [Let's add, how many days would it have taken to simply WALK to Phoenix, 40 mi away by sea? 3 - 4? We can readily see how the implicit, you won't get money back if you "abandon" the voyage and the rosy description of a smooth, low risk afternoon's sail could easily have swayed opinions.]) They sailed out. Bang, an early winter noreaster hit them and sprang the boat’s timbers (why they tried to hold together with ropes [--> called frapping]) so the ship was in a sinking condition from the beginning. Worse, they were heading for sandbars off the coast of today’s Libya. For two weeks all they could do was use a sea anchor to control drift and try to steer vaguely WNW. Forget, eating. That is when Paul stood forth as a good man in a storm, and encouraged them with a vision from God. By this time, hope was to be shipwrecked on a coast. (Turned out, [probably] north coast of Malta [possibly, east end].) While the ship was at risk of being driven aground and set out four anchors by the stern from midnight on, the sailors tried to abandon the passengers on a ruse, spotted by Paul and/or Luke his travelling companion. By this time, the Centurion knew who to take seriously and the ship’s boat was cut away. He then took the decision to save Paul and refused the soldiers’ request to kill the prisoners to prevent escape (for which their lives would have been forfeit). So, they made it to a beach on Malta, having lost the ship in any case AND nearly their own lives.
kairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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Jerry, I had not seen the first, but was aware of the confession by twisted projection. The Reichstag fire echo is in full swing. Athens' democracy failed in ways Plato summarised in his parable of the ship of state. That has ever been the fate of states falling to rule by mobs and their manipulators, who are generally moneyed interests to buy the manipulation. Beyond a certain point the mob may get out of control and turn man eater, as in the French revolution, i.e. the Jacobins may rise to power. Often, the power elites get away with using mob chaos and/or manipulation to gain lawless power. In the case of Athens, folly ended in defeat and a puppet regime that was tyrannical. It was overthrown, and Athens recovered to more stable government but the geostrategic loss was decisive. Macedon would take Greece, Alexander would defeat Persia, his generals would split the kingdom, Rome the ruthless was coming. I see that Lee Smith is arguing that plutocrats making bedfellows with critical theory marxists and collaborating with the Chinese tyrants have subverted -- further -- the American republic through a corruption of elites, institutions and clearly now elections. China playing Persia, but without launching two failed invasions [backdrop to the Peloponnesian war], exploiting civil rifts and 4th gen civil war. I agree that the NY Contractor in chief and blue collar billionaire tried to support the deplorables but found the swamp too pervaded by corruption, to the point that he could not staff key institutions with reformers. He was continually undermined and was targetted for ruin. The two ill-founded impeachments, the one in progress being without even a fig leaf of constitutionality, speak volumes. However, note, civil war. 4th gen, so war in the shadows designed to exploit the sleeping giant effect. A critical mass has to come to see the mortal danger and arise, with sound leadership. That means, taking a Pearl Harbor and running of the strategic board, especially as degree of lawless intent was clearly underestimated. Following the metaphor, I think the impeachment trial and surrounding circumstances may prove to be a Coral Sea, a point where strategic overstretch [a Pearl Harbor raid is a move of a weaker but better prepared faction seeking to gain and consolidate a shock victory] runs into a serious bloody nose. After this, a Midway and the beginnings of a Guadalcanal battle of breaking followed by a long island bypass/hop slog until a base can be built to take the power centres under decisive bombardment. The corrupt elites will see strategic decision against them this year, but that points onward to a long onward grind to break their hold on their power bases. It's not going to be easy or without stiff local and global cost -- China is clearly going for blue ocean breakout -- but the pomo globalist elites will lose. One scenario is, c 2023, former Speaker Pelosi and President Biden face impeachment led by Speaker Trump. Backed, by the Trumpian networks forming the deplorables media. And, by a fed up hinterland blue collar and middle class coalition irreconcilably disgusted with the coastal elites and their stunts. The USA, utterly needlessly, has led itself into chaos, confusion, civil strife and severe risk of ruin. For shame. KFkairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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JaD, we are seeing the play-out of generations of undermining a sound understanding of the moral underpinnings of human morally governed rational freedom and underlying first duties, reflected in genuine fundamental rights and freedoms also. Licence and imposition of shocking perversity and horrible disorders are substituted for sound rights and freedoms, might and manipulation towards power to effect such replace truth and prudence, justice and sound reason, yielding a topsy turvy, suicidally chaotic situation. The net effect is, a clear process of dancing on the crumbling edge of a cliff. Such will not end well. ____ Sev: We are seeing a dirty McFaul colour revolution in progress, now cynically exploiting a Reichstag fire to purge and further undermine lawfulness. We tracked this in progress for months as destructive riots by red guards and dupes were portrayed as mere protests, which actually continue, we see a Reichstag fire echo playing out, and you and other inveterate objectors were in denial every step of the way. You can judge the signs of the sky but are blind to the signs of the times. Now that we see a first piece of confession by projection, with a twisted topsy turvy caricature put up as narrative, you are backed into the corner of swallowing a narrative where conspiracy practically boasted of is turned into virtue. Crooked yardstick effect. Such, will not end well. KF PS: For reference, I add, complete with Twitter editorialising (on the way to banning?): https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/1357714538783727618?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Tim Pool @Timcast · Feb 5 I don't think this even matters at this point. Time magazine just came out said that a cabal of elites rigged the election I'm sorry they said they didn't rig the election they "fortified" it, by changing the rules and laws as well as manipulating the flow of information This claim of election fraud is disputed, and this Tweet can’t be replied to, Retweeted, or liked due to a risk of violence Quote Tweet Cassandra Fairbanks @CassandraRules · Feb 5 Here is the video we found of a “vote mobile” van arriving at 3:30am and 4:30am... driving directly into the TCF Center and unloading dozens of boxes each trip. This was 8 hours after the ballot deadline. https://thegatewaypundit.com/2021/02/exclusive-tcf-center-election-fraud-newly-recovered-video-shows-late-night-deliveries-tens-thousands-illegal-ballots-michigan-arena/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=PostTopSharingButtons&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons via @gatewaypundit Show this thread This claim of election fraud is disputed, and this Tweet can’t be replied to, Retweeted, or liked due to a risk of violence
Contrast such a situation with the seven first duties of reason . . . kairosfocus
February 7, 2021
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All of America’s founding fathers, whether they were so-called Deists or Christians, were guided by the idea that moral truth, which was the basis of civil law and human rights, was transcendent or “providential,” therefore, objective and binding. They were also quite cautious of democracy-- especially direct democracy. They saw the danger of subversive “factions” illegitimately seizing power and destabilizing the government. That is one of the reasons they designed so-called checks and balances in the constitution so it would be difficult to seize or monopolize power. For example, Kevin Williamson who writes for The National Review points out: John Adams hated democracy and he feared what was known in the language of the time as ‘passion.’ Adams’s famous assessment: ‘I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either.’ Democracy, he wrote, ‘never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty.’ https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/03/donald-trump-populist-demagogue-john-adams-anticipated/ Adams goes on to warn us,
[that] no government [is] capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. Oaths in this country are as yet universally considered as sacred obligations. That which you have taken, and so solemnly repeated on that venerable ground, is an ample pledge of your sincerity and devotion to your country and its government.
The difference between then and now? The majority of people living in America at the time believed that moral values and obligations were grounded in a transcendent moral standard (an eternal self-existing Creator and Lawgiver-- God.) Today we live in a society dominated moral subjectivism and relativism. What value are so-called human rights if they are not binding? And how can they be binding if they have no grounding in something eternal and transcendent. If morals are only very transient human inventions then they carry no real binding interpersonal obligations. Without real interpersonal moral obligations there is no such thing as a right. There is certainly no possibility that human rights are universal and timeless.john_a_designer
February 6, 2021
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Jerry/80
They were worried that Trump was going to spin the election as illegitimate because of a vast left wing conspiracy interfering in the election…so they formed a vast left wing conspiracy to interfere in the election.
No, they formed a coalition of those who still believe in democracy - rather than the de-mob-cracy of Trump cultists we saw at the Capitol - to prevent the legitimate result of the election being overturned by a man who clearly regards the Constitution, the courts and the legislature as impediments to his unfettered exercise of power. Protecting the election against fraudulent attempts to subvert it is not interference, it is patriotism.Seversky
February 6, 2021
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Viola Lee/81
I don’t think he really wanted to understand what I was saying.
It's nothing personal. In my experience, he is only interested in science insofar as it can be interpreted as supporting his religious presuppositions.Seversky
February 6, 2021
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re 74: thanks, Steve. I don't think I was being hard on myself, but I did see that I didn't make the intent of the Bell quote clear right at the start of 65. However, I think in the context of the whole post, I think I was clear. However, BA responded more to his own preconceptions than he did to what I wrote. Of course, when I explained that at 67, he just dismissed that out of hand. I don't think he really wanted to understand what I was saying.Viola Lee
February 6, 2021
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Kf, I assume you are aware of two booklet length articles that appeared in last two days
The Thirty Tyrants
A reference to Athens. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/the-thirty-tyrants And
The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election
https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ The latter has generated several analysis articles but the former is more important. Both are very long. Best comment I’ve seen about disingenuous election article in Time:
They were worried that Trump was going to spin the election as illegitimate because of a vast left wing conspiracy interfering in the election...so they formed a vast left wing conspiracy to interfere in the election.
jerry
February 6, 2021
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Kairosfocus “ SA2, do you think that the onward Reichstag fire purge is a sign of anything more than weakening resistance to a slide into lawless ideologically driven oligarchy?” Your level of pearl clutching hyperbole is definitely entertaining, but it doesn’t detract from the basic facts. 1) Lou Dobbs repeatedly made claims that were not supported by evidence. 2) Claims that were extremely damaging to two companies and to the reputations of the people in charge of those companies. 3) As a result, these companies are suing him. 4) If Fox thought that Dobbs’ “evidence” was compelling, they would stand behind him. 5) They obviously don’t think so.Steve Alten2
February 6, 2021
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SA2, do you think that the onward Reichstag fire purge is a sign of anything more than weakening resistance to a slide into lawless ideologically driven oligarchy? I have already pointed to implications of confession by ruthless action by people in governance positions. And BTW, there is a story I saved off months ago in which Mr Dobbs and Ms Pilgrim c Aug 2006, were investigating and exposing what was going on with election technology firms. In my vaults, it's too late to do a 1984 memory hole. KFkairosfocus
February 6, 2021
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JaD, I understand you but note that your phrasing invites an unfortunately common perception. Further, what is fixed about our nature, beyond our bodies etc, as morally governed free rational creatures precisely cannot be set in a computational substrate or a program coded into same. Otherwise we are dealing with computation not free reasoning. It is the implicit materialism and/or fellow travellers that leads to the concept, computational substrate. Were we like that, our reasoning and knowledge claims would reduce to that's the way you were coded, so there is no credibility, it is all unconsciously controlled by7 blind mechanical necessity and/or chance. The self-referential incoherence should be plain. KFkairosfocus
February 6, 2021
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