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L&FP, 63: Do design thinkers, theists and the like “always” make bad arguments because they are “all” ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked?

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Dawkins’ barbed blanket dismissiveness comes up far too often in discussions of the design inference and related themes. Rarely, explicitly, most often by implication of a far too commonly seen no concessions, selectively hyperskeptical policy that objectors to design too often manifest. It is time to set this straight.

First, we need to highlight fallacious, crooked yardstick thinking (as exposed by naturally straight and upright plumb-lines). And yes, that classical era work, the Bible, is telling:

Notice, a pivotal point here, is self-evident truths. Things, similar to 2 + 3 = 5:

Notoriously, Winston Smith in 1984 is put on the rack to break his mind to conform to The Party’s double-think. He is expected to think 2 + 2 = whatever The Party needs at the moment, suppressing the last twisted answer, believing that was always the case, while simultaneously he must know that manifestly 2 + 2 = 4 on pain of instant absurdity. This is of course a toy example but it exposes the way crooked yardstick thinking leads to chaos:

Of Lemmings, marches of folly and cliffs of self-falsifying absurdity . . .

(Yes, real lemmings do not act like that. But, humans . . . that’s a whole other story.)

So, now, let us turn to a recent barbed remark by one of our frequent objectors and my reply, laying out a frame of thought and inviting correction — dodged, of course:

KF, 120 in the Foundations thread: [[It is now clear that SG is unwilling to substantially back up the one liner insinuation he made at 84 above, try making a good argument. Accordingly, let me respond in outline, for record, to the general case, that people like us are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked and the associated zero concessions, selectively hyperskeptical dismissiveness policy. Here, I will show the rational responsibility of the design inference and related ideas, views and approaches, for record and reference:

I will use steps of thought:

1: Reason, in general: Notice, supporters and fellow travellers of evolutionary materialistic scientism undermine the responsible, rational freedom required for reason to be credible. They tend to discount and discredit objectors, but in fact their arguments and assertions are self-referentially incoherent, especially reduction of mind to computationalism on a wetware substrate. Reppert is right to point out, following Haldane and others:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

2: This extends to Marx’s class/cultural conditioning, to Freud’s potty training etc, to Skinner’s operant conditioning , to claims my genes made me do it, and many more. So, irrationality and undermining of the credibility of reason are a general issue for such supporters and fellow travellers, it is unsurprising to see projection to the despised other (a notorious defence mechanism) and linked failure to engage self referentiality.

3: First principles of right reason: Classically, the core of reason starts with distinct identity, excluded middle, non contradiction. Something x is what it is i/l/o its core characteristics, nothing can be both x and not x in the same sense and circumstances, any y in W = {x| ~x} will be x, ~x, not both or neither. And more. Claimed quantum counter examples etc actually are rooted in reasoning that relies on such. And yes, there have been enough objections that this has come up and is in UD’s Weak Argument Correctives. We leave it to objectors like SG to tell us whether they acknowledge such first principles of right reason: _______ and explain why ________ .

4: Self evidence: There are arguments that, once we have enough experience and maturity to understand [a sometimes big if], will be seen as true, as necessarily true and as true on pain of immediate absurdities on attempted denial. That error exists is a good case in point, and if one is able to see that the attempt to deny objectivity of knowledge for a given reasonably distinct field of thought such as morals or history or reality [metaphysics], or the physical world, or external reality, or in general, etc, one is claiming to objectively know something about that field and so refutes oneself.

5: self referential incoherence and question begging: We just saw an example of how arguments and arguers can include themselves in the zone of reference of an argument in ways that undermine it, often by implying a contradiction. Such arguments defeat themselves. Question begging is different, it assumes, suggests or imposes what should be shown and for which there are responsible alternatives. Arguments can be question begging, and then may turn out to be self refuting.

6: Deduction, induction, abduction (inference to the best [current] explanation [IBE]) and weak-form knowledge: Deduction uses logical validity to chain from givens to conclusions, where if givens are so and the chain valid, conclusions must also be true. Absent errors of reasoning, the debate rapidly becomes one over why the givens. Induction, modern sense, is about degree of support for conclusions i/l/o evidence of various kinds as opposed to demonstration, statistics, history, science, etc are common contexts. Abduction, especially IBE, compares live option alternatives and what they imply, on factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power, to choose the best explanation so far. In this context weak sense common knowledge is warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief. Which, is open to correction or revision and extension.

7: Worldviews context: Why accept A? B. But why B? C, etc. We see that we face infinite regress, or circularity or finitely remote first plausibles . . . which, frame our faith points . . . as we set out to understand our world. Infinite regress is impossible to traverse in reasoning or in cause effect steps, so we set it aside, we are forced to have finitely remote start points to reasoning and believing, warranting and knowing — first plausibles that define our views of the world. Thus, we all live by faith, the question is which, why; so, whether it is rational/reasonable and responsible. Where, too, all serious worldview options bristle with difficulties, hence the point that philosophy is the discipline that studies hard, basic questions. Question begging circles are a challenge, answered through comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and balance of explanatory power: elegantly simple, neither ad hoc nor simplistic.

[Let’s add an illustration:]

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

[or in Aristotle’s words:]

8: Failure of evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow traveller views: It will be evident already, that, while institutionally and culturally dominant, evolutionary materialistic scientism and fellow travellers are profoundly and irretrievably incoherent. Yes, a view backed by institutions, power brokers in the academy, the education system and the media can be irretrievably, fatally cracked from its roots.

9: Logic of being (and of structure and quantity), also possible worlds: Ontology and her grand child, Mathematics, grow out of core philosophy, particularly distinct identity and consideration of possible worlds. A possible world, w, is a sufficiently complete description of how our world or another conceivable or even actual world is or may be; i.e. a cluster of core, world describing propositions. In that context, a candidate being or entity or even state of affairs, c, can be impossible of being [e.g. a Euclidean plane square circle] or possible. Possible beings may be contingent [actual in at least one possible world but not all] or necessary [present in every possible world]. We and fires are contingent, dependent for existence on many independent, prior factors; what begins or may cease of existence is contingent. Necessary beings are best seen as part of the fabric or framework for this or any possible world. We can show that distinct identity implies two-ness, thence 0, 1, 2. Ponder, W = {A|~A}, the partition is empty, 0, A is a unit, ~A is a complex unit, so we see 2. So, onward via von Neumann’s construction, the counting numbers N. Thence, Z, Q, R, C, R* etc in any w. This is what gives core Mathematics its universal power.

10: The basic credibility of the design inference: of course, we routinely recognise that many things show reliable signs of intelligently directed configuration as key cause, i.e. design. For example, objectors to the design inference often issue copious, complex text in English, beyond 500 to 1,000 bits of complexity. In the 70’s Orgel and Wicken identified a distinct and quantifiable phenomenon, functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information, which I often abbreviate FSCO/I. Organisation is there as things like a fishing reel [my favourite, e.g. the ABU 6500 CT] or a watch [Paley, do not overlook his self replicating watch thought exercise in Ch 2]

or an oil refinery or a computer program [including machine code]

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

or the cell’s metabolic process-flow network [including protein synthesis]

[with:]

Step by step protein synthesis in action, in the ribosome, based on the sequence of codes in the mRNA control tape (Courtesy, Wikipedia and LadyofHats)

[and:]

all can be described in a suitably compact string of Y/N questions, structured through description languages such as AutoCAD. The inference posits that, with trillions of cases under our belt, reliably, FSCO/I or its generalisation, CSI, will be signs of design as key cause. The controversies, as may be readily seen, are not for want of evidence or inability to define or quantify, but because this challenges the dominant evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers. Which, of course, long since failed through irretrievable self referential incoherence.
_____________________

So, challenge: let SG and/or others show where the above fails to be rational and responsible, if they can__________________ Prediction, aside from mere disagreement and/or dismissiveness, assertions, or the trifecta fallacy of red herrings, led away to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and set alight to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere, they will not be able to sustain a case for general failure to be rational and responsible.]]

The good argument challenge is duly open for response. END

U/D, Nov 4: As it seems certain objectors want to attack the descriptive metaphor, islands of function amidst seas of non function, let me put up here a couple of infographics I used some years ago to discuss this concept. But first, as the primary contexts have to do with protein synthesis and OoL, let me first put up Vuk Nicolic’s video illustrating just what is required for protein synthesis:

. . . and Dr James Tour’s summary presentation on OoL synthesis challenges:

Now, this is my framework for discussing islands of function:

. . . and, on associated active information:

Thus, we can discuss the Orgel-Wicken functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information concept, FSCO/I, similarly:

We see here the needle in a haystack, blind search challenge and how it is dominated by not the hill climbing on fitness functions that is commonly discussed but by the issue of arriving at shorelines of first function. Obviously and primarily, for origin of cell based life [cf. Tour] but also to move from that first unicellular body plan to others. Where, we can observe too that even within an island of function, incremental changes will be challenged by intervening valleys, tending to trap on a given peak or plateau.

But, what of the thesis, that there is in effect a readily accessible first functionality, incrementally connected to all major body plans, allowing unlimited, branching tree of life body plan level macro evolution?

The Smithsonian’s tree of life model, note the root in OOL

Obviously, this architecture implies such continuity. The first problem, obviously is the root and the plethora of speculations and debatable or even dubious syntheses that have been made into icons of the grand evolutionary narrative and taught as effective fact, already tell us something is wrong. A second clue is how the diagram itself implies that transitional forms should utterly dominate the space, with terminal tips being far less common. On basic statistics, we should then expect an abundance of these transitions or “links.” The phrase, missing link, tells the tale instead.

For, the trade secret of paleontology, is the utter rarity of such forms, to the point where punctuated equilibria was a major school intended to explain that general absence. Where, Darwin, notoriously, noted the gaps but expected and predicted that on wider investigations they would go away. But now, after 150 years of searching, billions of fossils seen in situ, millions in museum back office drawers [only a relative few can be displayed] and over a quarter of a million fossil species, the pattern of gaps is very much still here, hot denials and dismissals notwithstanding. That is especially true of the Cambrian fossil life form revolution, where the major current body plans for animals pop up with nary an intermediate. So much so, that there have been significant efforts to make it disappear, obfuscating its significance.

We also have molecular islands of function, starting with protein fold domains. Thousands, scattered across the AA sequence space, no easy path connecting them. Even just homochirality soon accumulates into a serious search space challenge as molecules are complex and mirror image handedness is not energetically enforced, why racemic forms, 50-50 mixes of left and right handed molecules are what we tend to get in lab syntheses. This then gets more complicated where there are multiple isomers as Tour discusses.

In short, a real issue not a readily dismissible notion without significant empirical support.

And so forth.

U/D2 Nov 4: I just found where I had an image from p. 11 NFL, so observe:

ID researcher William A Dembski, NFL, p.11 on possibilities, target zones and events

Where, we can further illustrate the beach of function issue:

And, some remarks:

U/D 3 Nov 7: The all-revealing Eugenics Conference Logo from 1912 and 1921 showing how it was seen as a capstone of ever so many sciences and respected domains of knowledge, especially statistics, genetics, biology and medicine, even drawing on religion, with, politics, law, education, psychology, mental testing and sociology . . . menacingly . . . also being in the roots:

“Eugenics is the self-direction of human evolution”: Logo from the Second International Eugenics Conference, 1921, depicting Eugenics as a tree which unites a variety of different fields.

U/D 4, Nov 10: A reminder on cosmological fine tuning, from Luke Barnes:

Barnes: “What if we tweaked just two of the fundamental constants? This figure shows what the universe would look like if the strength of the strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) and the value of the fine-structure constant (which represents the strength of the electromagnetic force between elementary particles) were higher or lower than they are in this universe. The small, white sliver represents where life can use all the complexity of chemistry and the energy of stars. Within that region, the small “x” marks the spot where those constants are set in our own universe.” (HT: New Atlantis)

U/D 5, Nov 12: As there is dismissiveness of the textual, coded information stored in DNA, it is necessary to show here a page clip from Lehninger, as a case in point of what should not even be a debated point:

For record.

U/D 6, Nov 14: The per aspect design inference explanatory filter shows how right in the core design inference, alternative candidate causes and their observational characteristics are highlighted:

Explanatory Filter

Again, for record.

Comments
Jerry: Again, why is a useless process, Weasel, being discussed?
I tend to agree with you on this. Nobody has suggested that this is how evolution works, so any arguments about it do not get us any closer to whether evolution or God best explains the diversity of life.Sir Giles
November 6, 2022
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Again, why is a useless process, Weasel, being discussed?jerry
November 6, 2022
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Perhaps you should go back and read some of the previous posts on this, Whistler. We've covered this. Dawkins was clear about the role of the target and how it wasn't meant to be a model for natural selection.Viola Lee
November 6, 2022
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As for Weasel, it rewards gibberish strings for increments that are closer to a preloaded target. It is worse than worthless, it is fallaciously misleading.
:) Dawkins being an advocate for intelligent design and nobody from his atheistic band caught him. It's beyond hilarious !whistler
November 6, 2022
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KF writes, "[Weasel] rewards gibberish strings for increments that are closer to a preloaded target." Yes, that is what it does, illustrating that such procedure gets to the target much quicker than pure chance. That is not worthless. (The fact that the strings are gibberish is irrelevant: the target string could be gibberish also and nothing about the nature of the program would be changed.) And it is only "misleading" to people like you who try to project into it all sorts of things it was never intended to be. Also, do you agree that my explanation of Weasel at 170 is accurate?Viola Lee
November 6, 2022
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VL,
In Weasel, as I have explained, the principle being illustrated by Weasel is that a cumulative set of steps selected along the way can get to a target much faster than multiple random and simultaneous independent events
Actually, it shows no such thing, especially when most of the relevant configuration space is gibberish. No one disputes that an incremental random search with hill climbing, within an island of function will find a local peak. As U/D to OP will also show, it will tend to be trapped there, too. What is being suppressed by Weasel is first, that for there to be a viable life form, sound metabolism, encapsulation with smart gating [for homeostasis] and a viable additional von Neumann kinematic self replicating mechanism are necessary at every stage. This then feeds into the real search challenge given that most configurations are predictably gibberish and non functional, and that by the nature of requiring a large number of well matched, properly arranged and coupled parts, fulfilling the three requisites, function is naturally confined to small isolated zones in the space of possible configurations. These, long ago and not by me, were termed islands of function. Another way of putting it is to see that we naturally have narrow fine tuned, locally isolated operating points. This is an abundantly confirmed fact of getting things to work. So, challenge no 1 is to get from a Darwin warm pond or the like to a first operating point. No one has a clue how that could come about by blind chance and/or mechanical necessity, as say Tour has highlighted. Of course, disregarded. Next, from a first working body plan, the same challenge obtains for getting to others. Again, disregarded. As for Weasel, it rewards gibberish strings for increments that are closer to a preloaded target. It is worse than worthless, it is fallaciously misleading. The lesson is, crooked yardstick thinking is at work. KFkairosfocus
November 6, 2022
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Upright Biped
They are the primal “islands of function” that were predicted to exist, confirmed via experiment, and avoided by ID critics as an on-going strategy.
You're back! I thought you were the one doing the avoiding. What, pray, do you mean by the primal island of function? What came before RNA world?Alan Fox
November 6, 2022
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And this is why I abandoned the failed, 19th century, racist theory of evolution, which was used to justify colonialism and the slow genocide of so-called “inferior” humans.
Nonsense, slavery and oppression dates back as long as civilization. Ancient Greeks and Romans were experts, Biblical slavery, and on through until the age of enlightenment. Darwin was an abolitionist.Alan Fox
November 6, 2022
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A simpler illustration is the game of Yahtzee. You have five dice and three rolls. The goal is to get all five dice the same, called a yahtzee. The chances of this occurring in one roll is 6^4 = 1/1296. So if you roll and if you don’t get a yahtzee, you roll again, and then if no yahtzee, roll a third time, the probability of getting a yahtzee is about 0.0023, or about 1/4%. However, the way the game is played each time you roll you can select which dice to leave as they are and which to roll. To pick a simple example, after two rolls if you have three 6s, you throw the other two dice and now have a 1/36 chance of completing the yahtzee. The probability tree for computing the chances of getting a yahtzee in the game is very complicated (I worked on it one time), but of course the chance are better than the “pure chance” method which has a probability of 1/4%. Someone on the internet has calculated the probability to be about 4.6% (his method looks good to me), or about 25 times better than just throwing all five dice each time. This is the same process Weasel is modeling.Viola Lee
November 6, 2022
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There is an easy way to test natural selection as a creative mechanism. That is the Darwinian process of 1) variation, 2) inheritability and 3) selection would leave a forensic trail as it creates something unique. If it acts, then that trail should be there. If it doesn’t, it won’t be there. Easy to check. No need for Weasels. Prediction: no one is interested in verifying this. So it will not happen. Aside: is Darwinian Evolution an all at once selection? Theoretically, all of the final sequence is useless except the magic final nucleotide. So it’s one big single selection of a very long otherwise useless sequence. Aside2: why is something irrelevant for anything (Weasel Program) being discussed?jerry
November 6, 2022
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. Hello Q, Gosh, I wonder what tiny steps preceded … You could add specification and semantic closure to your list, given that the whole topic is moot until they are in place. They are the primal “islands of function” that were predicted to exist, confirmed via experiment, and avoided by ID critics as an on-going strategy.Upright BiPed
November 6, 2022
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KF: SG, 164, those words you tried to put in my mouth do not belong there, as should be obvious. I think you have a few further things to walk back. KF
My apologies. The quote in my comment was from AF, not KF.Sir Giles
November 6, 2022
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More thoughts on Weasel First, I am not a Dawkins fan. I saw him speak once, and thought his understanding of philosophy and religion was poor, and I am even less impressed with his current thoughts about society. I am interested in Weasel as it applies to both theoretical and applied math. From a theoretical point of views, iterative processes such as Weasel are one of my favorite subjects (other examples are Conway’s Game of Life, and the Mandelbrot set and fractals in general). I’m also interested in how math is applied to the real world by making models which are meant to reflect some aspect of the real world. In Weasel, as I have explained, the principle being illustrated by Weasel is that a cumulative set of steps selected along the way can get to a target much faster than multiple random and simultaneous independent events. To be clear, in this sense Weasel is an intelligently designed model to illustrate that principle. It is not meant to model natural selection. With that said, a brief review of what Weasel does. 1. Start with a target string. The fact that Dawkins picked a meaningful string of 28 letters and spaces is irrelevant. He could have chosen complete gibberish. 2. Start with a randomly selected string of 28 characters. The chance of selecting the target string is 27^28, or about 10^40, which obviously is not going to have. 3. Call this first string Parent 1 in Generation 1 (Gen1) 4. Parent 1 now has a number of children: let us say 100. (I don’t know how many Dawkins used.) 5. Each child is produced by doing the following: for each letter in the parent string, select a random number between 0 and 1. If that number is less than a certain number (say 0.05, or 5%: this is the mutation rate), change the letter at random. If not, leave the letter alone. In this way, using a mutation rate of 5%, about 3/4 of the children would be different than the parent. 6. Now compare each one of the children to the target string, and count how many letters match. Then, out of the 100 children, pick the child string which has the most matching letters. (Have some arbitrary procedure for breaking ties.) This child becomes Parent 2 in Generation 2. 7. Now repeat the process: this is the iteration. The parents will get closer and closer to the target string, and of course get there vastly faster than if you were just randomly selecting random strings each generation. This is the principle Dawkins was trying to illustrate.Viola Lee
November 6, 2022
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SG, 164, those words you tried to put in my mouth do not belong there, as should be obvious. I think you have a few further things to walk back. KFkairosfocus
November 6, 2022
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re 159 to hnorman42: Thanks for being interested in discussing “Weasel” You write, “At first sight it seems like in the passage you quoted he’s confessing that it’s intelligent design.: I don’t think there is any “confession” here. He explains quite clearly that the program is unlike evolution in that the program knows the target and evaluates strings in respect to the target. The phrase “intelligent design” was not in broad usage in 1986, but in effect he was saying that the honing in on the target is a product of intelligent design because in fact Dawkins intelligently designed the program to do that. As I tried to make clear in 137, there is an important distinction to be made between what Weasel is trying to illustrate and what it is not. There I wrote,
There is an important distinction between what he was trying to do (show that the presence of some selecting mechanism could produce results far differently than pure chance) and what he was NOT trying to do (having the selection mechanism he used be a model for the natural selection in the biological world.)
Does that distinction make sense to you, and seem significant. You write, “He evidently thinks he’s saying something on behalf of blind watchmaker evolution. The question is what.” Yes, he is trying to illustrate the first issue I mention above: that if you have a process that cumulatively selects and advance towards a target, you can reach the target much faster than if you try to reach the target all in one step by the simultaneous random selection of a number of independent events. It is the difference between small accumulative steps guided by a selection process versus one large random step that he is comparing. The selection process he is using is, if you will, ID, not natural selection (he calls it analogous to artifical breeding), but that is a separate issue from the small selection steps vs one large random step. This is where the iterative process that Dawkins created is mathematically interested and applicable to the real world. You write, “He seems to think it’s supporting cumulative selection but it’s not. For natural selection, the weasel would have to be regarded as a single-step problem. The “selections” that take take place along the way in the simulation are meaningful only in an ID perspective.” I’ve already agreed with your second sentence, and pointed out that modeling natural selection was not the goal of the program. However, I don’t understand your first sentence. Even if Weasel is about natural selection, how would one consider natural selection a one-step process? Natural selection takes place with large number of organisms living approximately contemporaneously over multiple generations. It seems to me that it is very much a multi-step process. Can you explain more what you mean? ThanksViola Lee
November 6, 2022
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Alan Fox @165,
I don’t know, Querius. One thing I do know is that you don’t know either
Yes, exactly. And this is why I abandoned the failed, 19th century, racist theory of evolution, which was used to justify colonialism and the slow genocide of so-called "inferior" humans. -QQuerius
November 6, 2022
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Sorry to interrupt the festive postings for the purpose of turning Kairosfocus into a piñata. With all this talk about "islands of fitness" that come and go reminds me of the dangers of reduced genetic diversity. For example, Panthera tigris is in danger of extinction precisely due to over-adaptation to several ecosystems. https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2021/02/17/siberian-tigers-c-sumatran-mates/ This trend is precisely what Darwinism predicts, but the result is extinction instead of genome persistence. Thus, animals with greater genetic diversity maintain a greater ability to adapt to inevitable changes in climate and ecosystems, while "more evolved and adapted" species fail to survive. Thus, the survival of the fittest individual is at odds with the survival of the fittest genome. There's an additional issue of genomic entropy where preservation of unfit humans increases the genetic load of undesirable mutations (hemophilia comes to mind), which is variously estimated to be around 100 mutations per generation in humans. https://medium.com/@andreipetrut19/the-degradation-of-human-genomes-fbf5a686d25f These are currently observable, measurable examples of "evolution in action," which actually seems to be wholly deleterious. -QQuerius
November 6, 2022
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Gosh, I wonder what tiny steps preceded RNA or the ADP-ADP cycle.
I don't know, Querius. One thing I do know is that you don't know eitherAlan Fox
November 6, 2022
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KF: Good grief! What’s that smell? Oilofadhom?
It is well known that those who can’t articulately counter an argument that runs contrary to their deeply held belief will often resort to ad hominems and condescension. This becomes even more prevalent in people who find it almost impossible to admit that they may be wrong. Another tactic often used by those who can’t accurately counter an argument that runs contrary to their deeply held beliefs is to apply labels to those who disagree with them in an attempt to discredit their opponent and, by association, discredit the argument.Sir Giles
November 6, 2022
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Gosh, I wonder what tiny steps preceded RNA or the ADP-ADP cycle. No fair using the speculative words "musta," "coulda," or "mighta," the mainstays of Darwinism. For pre-RNA or pre-ADP-ATP Darwinists throw the anti-scientific magician's black cloak of deep time, extinctions, and lack of fossil evidence. Artist: This is a masterful painting of a cow eating grass. Critic: Where's the grass? Artist: The cow has eaten it. Critic: Where is the cow? Artist: Surely, it's obvious to you that the cow would not stick around after eating all the grass! -QQuerius
November 6, 2022
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AF, weasel rewards non functional gibberish strings for increments of proximity to a pre loaded target.
Nobody spending more than five minutes researching the Weasel program could think other than it shows finding some string of characters is quicker if proximity to the target is rewarded. I have spent more than five minutes, so your repetition is not needed. I do smile at "non-functional gibberish" though. What the target string and intermediate strings are is utterly irrelevant. You just can't resist packing your sentences with words and phrase intended to spread a little oil of ad hom.
It communicates the impression of progress to something meaningful and functional when in fact it was pre loaded as a target. It could have been done in two stages, input an arbitrary string and hit enter. Then, print line, only not Hello world but the already loaded string. The input is just the equivalent of run.
Dawkins was careful to point out in The Blind Watchmaker that real evolution does not involve searches or targets. Nobody spending more than five minutes researching the Weasel program would think otherwise.
As for your latest on appearing and disappearing niches . . . that’s just islands of function using a sophisticated French sounding word.
Islands of function work only in your imagination. The fitness landscape is dynamic, it changes over time. Climate changes, sea levels rise and fall, mountains erode, valleys flood, tectonic plates shift, meteors arrive. Niche (ecological niche) is merely the biological term for all the factors that affect a species in its habitat. Wikipedia on niches See also: Ontogenetic niche shift Marginal distribution (biology) Fitness landscape Niche differentiation Overpopulation Phylogenetic niche conservatism Unified neutral theory of biodiversity for a fuller picture!!!
But of course as we all know the zero concession policy is in effect. KF
Good grief! What's that smell? Oilofadhom?Alan Fox
November 6, 2022
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AF, weasel rewards non functional gibberish strings for increments of proximity to a pre loaded target. It communicates the impression of progress to something meaningful and functional when in fact it was pre loaded as a target. It could have been done in two stages, input an arbitrary string and hit enter. Then, print line, only not Hello world but the already loaded string. The input is just the equivalent of run. As for your latest on appearing and disappearing niches . . . that's just islands of function using a sophisticated French sounding word. But of course as we all know the zero concession policy is in effect. KFkairosfocus
November 6, 2022
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For natural selection, the weasel would have to be regarded as a single-step problem. The “selections” that take place along the way in the simulation are meaningful only in an ID perspective.
This makes no sense. Where there is selective pressure acting on a population of organisms, the bias results in individuals with phenotypes better able to thrive under that selective pressure (intra-species competition for available resources) leaving more offspring. There's no single step, the effect is cumulative. How do you look at this from an ID perspective? The niches that open up to exploitation, change over time, and disappear could be designed, front loaded by the Universe's creator which would be a sort of ID, I guess.Alan Fox
November 6, 2022
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VL @ 145 I read over the pages from "The Blind Watchmaker" about the weasel simulation. At first sight it seems like in the passage you quoted he's confessing that it's intelligent design. We know that can't be right. He evidently thinks he's saying something on behalf of blind watchmaker evolution. The question is what. The passage you quoted actually represents a caveat - but a complete reversal on his part would be appropriate here. He seems to think it's supporting cumulative selection but it's not. For natural selection, the weasel would have to be regarded as a single-step problem. The "selections" that take take place along the way in the simulation are meaningful only in an ID perspective.hnorman42
November 6, 2022
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Q, prezactly. KFkairosfocus
November 6, 2022
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F/N: It seems now advisable to put a useful 101 by Wiki on the table, given the sort of tangents that are being -- in my view, mostly needlessly -- put up, in the interest of checking various rabbit trails:
The four causes or four explanations are, in Aristotelian thought, four fundamental types of answer to the question "why?", in analysis of change or movement in nature: the material, the formal, the efficient, and the final. Aristotle wrote that "we do not have knowledge of a thing until we have grasped its why, that is to say, its cause."[1][2] While there are cases in which classifying a "cause" is difficult, or in which "causes" might merge, Aristotle held that his four "causes" provided an analytical scheme of general applicability.[3] Aristotle's word aitia (Greek: ?????) has, in philosophical scholarly tradition, been translated as 'cause'. This peculiar, specialized, technical, usage of the word 'cause' is not that of everyday English language.[4] Rather, the translation of Aristotle's ????? that is nearest to current ordinary language is "explanation."[5][2][4] In Physics II.3 and Metaphysics V.2, Aristotle holds that there are four kinds of answers to "why" questions:[2][5][6] Matter The material cause of a change or movement. This is the aspect of the change or movement that is determined by the material that composes the moving or changing things. For a table, this might be wood; for a statue, it might be bronze or marble. [--> you need materials to compose a physical system, from a cricket ball to a computer information system] Form The formal cause of a change or movement. This is a change or movement caused by the arrangement, shape, or appearance of the thing changing or moving. Aristotle says, for example, that the ratio 2:1, and number in general, is the formal cause of the octave. [--> there are built in patterns of the world and in objects, entities and processes, such include those of structure and quantity [i.e. mathematics] and in turn stochastic patterns are arguably part of this, often fitting particular distributions such as binomial, Gaussian or beta] Agent The efficient or moving cause of a change or movement. This consists of things apart from the thing being changed or moved, which interact so as to be an agency of the change or movement. For example, the efficient cause of a table is a carpenter, or a person working as one, and according to Aristotle the efficient cause of a child is a parent. [--> what actuates or begins or sustains or ends something or some process] End, or purpose The final cause of a change or movement. This is a change or movement for the sake of a thing to be what it is. For a seed, it might be an adult plant; for a sailboat, it might be sailing; for a ball at the top of a ramp, it might be coming to rest at the bottom. [--> a gateway for agency and intent] The four "causes" are not mutually exclusive. For Aristotle, several, preferably four, answers to the question "why" have to be given to explain a phenomenon and especially the actual configuration of an object.[7] For example, if asking why a table is such and such, an explanation in terms of the four causes would sound like this: This table is solid and brown because it is made of wood (matter); it does not collapse because it has four [--> adequate!] legs of equal length (form); it is as it is because a carpenter made it, starting from a tree (agent); it has these dimensions because it is to be used by humans (end).
This does not contradict or replace the frame of chance and/or [mechanical/physical] necessity and/or intentionally directed configuration. An ordinary fair die is rolled in the hands and tossed. It rotates around its centre of mas due to imparted angular momentum, it moves horizontally and vertically as a projectile facing air resistance and related forces, it collides with a table top and further rotates, dissipating its kinetic energies of translation and rotation. Thanks to eight corners and twelve edges, it exhibits the butterfly effect and settles to an uppermost face with effectively a flat random distribution. It is thrown as part of a game to generate just such random numbers from 1 to 6. Being an Asian die, the 1 is dished out and painted red as Asians tend to believe this makes for a more clearly flat random distribution. Then, with two or three dice and the value now being the sum, a peaked distribution now emerges, which allows for a peaks and tails pattern. Decision rules of the game reflect that peaks and tails pattern. We see here, the four factors and the three key causal patterns in joint action. They are NOT contradictory, but complementary or even intersecting [one hesitates to mention Venn diagrams these days], and one focuses what is more relevant at a given time. Let me add that the logic of being and possible worlds perspective allows yet further intersections, through pondering what is possible vs impossible of being [contradictory core characteristics and euclidean plane square circles . . . the EP part being there to cut off further rabbit trails tactics]. Then we contrast contingent and necessary beings. It is contingent entities that are subjects of cause. Necessary ones are framework for any possible world. Let me hasten to further add, we need to reflect too on Plato's self-moved, reflexively acting agent cause [in the very same text of The Laws bk X where he raised the three causes and he uses that to focus the soul as self moved, identifying self motion as key to life which is not just biological given his cosmological inference to soul as root reality] where cumulative decisions and changed internal state are part and parcel of our activities as agents. We cannot have our cakes and eat them, investment is risky but is not merely consumption, depreciation is important for capital and more. KFkairosfocus
November 6, 2022
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PM1, your lists are basically cases of necessity or of front loaded design, as you know. Self organising structures such as hurricanes [Coriolis forces writ large and dangerous] reflect mechanical necessity, and more. Taking the first item you list, notice the full title: "Dynamics in Action: Intentional Behavior as a Complex System by Alicia Juarrero " . . . a telling omission on your part. In short, you have relabelled the cluster of three forces via particular cases, you have not overturned them. And of course the four causes framework is relevant, but does not overturn the chance and/or necessity and/or art framework which as noted is in Plato, Aristotle's teacher. KFkairosfocus
November 5, 2022
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Viola Lee @147,
About covid? Mutations occur occasionally for various reasons (reproduction is not perfect) which change various aspects of the virus, which then reproduces and produces numerous new viruses which are a variant of what existed before. How to you explain “designed”? Does God purposely make the changes that produce the variants?
The COVID-19 virus is apparently interesting from a virology point of view. The version found in horseshoe bats needs mutations in one or more intermediate animal hosts for it to become infectious to humans. This also can account for its natural transmission from southern-most China for over 1,000 miles to the Wuhan area. Here's what's been discovered: 1. No intermediate hosts and no gradual variants that make this COVID virus infectious to humans have been found. No animals infected with COVID were found in the vicinity of Wuhan. 2. Considerable change (~4%) in the COVID genome occurred between horseshoe bats and COVID-19 in humans. 3. Nature normally doesn't make relatively massive changes like this in viral RNA, but in small, traceable increments. Thus, it's reasonable to conclude that human researchers at the Wuhan virology lab made the necessary changes that initiated the pandemic rather than God. A lab leak is the likely proximal cause. For the other COVID-19 variants, small changes (aka genetic drift) in the genome can be traced to geographic areas such as South Africa, for example. These were likely not engineered either by humans or by God. -QQuerius
November 5, 2022
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@139
PM1, kindly specify an empirically supported, actually observed fourth alternative to chance and/or necessity and/or design — intelligently directed configuration: _______ . Where, I believe you will find that trichotomy down the length of our civilisation, from Plato in The Laws Bk X, to Monod’s Chance and Necessity. So, no, it is not Dembski. Indeed there is an interesting related discussion in Newton’s General Scholium.
Alternative to chance and necessity or design articulated at the conceptual level: Aristotle in Physics, On the Generation of Animals, On the Soul (De Anima), and Metaphysics. Recent work that suggests Aristotle was basically on the right track: Dynamics in Action by Alicia Juarrero: shows that Aristotle's distinction between formal and efficient causes is necessary to describe the behavior complex systems. Incomplete Nature by Terrence Deacon: three levels of organization in the universe: 'simple' thermodynamic systems, self-organizing systems, and self-maintaining systems. Biological Autonomy by Mossio and Moreno: biological agency is constituted by organizational closure and thermodynamic openness. The Evolution of the Sensitive Soul by Ginsburg and Jablonka: argues that the evolution of metazoan animals can be theorized in terms of increasingly sophisticated kinds of learning.PyrrhoManiac1
November 5, 2022
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Jerry at 152, You did a Gallup poll to arrive at your conclusion? You backed it up with nothing. You should have written: "I can't say for sure, but I hope no one here believes that. I don't." So you posted what you 'assume' people think. By the way, all viruses mutate. That's why there's a new flu shot every year. As in, every year.relatd
November 5, 2022
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