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L&FP42: is knowledge warranted, credibly true (so, reliable) belief?

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It’s time to start delivering on a promise to address “warrant, knowledge, logic and first duties of reason as a cluster,” even at risk of being thought pedantic. Our civilisation is going through a crisis of confidence, down to the roots. If it is to be restored, that is where we have to start, and in the face of rampant hyperskepticism, relativism, subjectivism, emotivism, outright nihilism and irrationality, we need to have confidence regarding knowledge.

Doing my penance, I suppose: these are key issues and so here I stand, in good conscience, I can do no other, God help me.

For a start, from the days of Plato, knowledge has classically been defined as “justified, true belief.” However, in 1963, the late Mr Gettier put the cat in among the pigeons, with Gettier counter-examples; which have since been multiplied. In effect, there are circumstances (and yes, sometimes seemingly contrived, but these are instructive thought exercises) in which someone or a circle may be justified to hold a belief but on taking a wider view such cannot reasonably be held to be a case of knowledge.

As a typical thought exercise, consider a circle of soldiers and sailors on some remote Pacific island, who are eagerly awaiting a tape of a championship match sent out by the usual morale units. They get it, play it and rejoice that team A has won over team B (and the few who thought otherwise have to cough up on their bets to the contrary). Unbeknownst to them, through clerical error, it was last year’s match, which had the same A vs B match-up and more or less the same outcome. They are justified — have a right — to believe, what they believe is so, but somehow the two fail to connect leading to accidental, not reliable arrival at truth.

Knowledge must be built of sterner stuff.

Ever since, epistemology as a discipline, has struggled to rebuild a solid consensus on what knowledge is.

Plantinga weighed in with a multi-volume study, championing warrant, which(as we just noted) is at first defined by bill of requisites. That is, we start with what it must do. So, warrant — this builds on the dictionary/legal/commercial sense of a reliable guarantee of performance “as advertised” — will be whatever reliably converts beliefs we have a right to into knowledge.

The challenge being, to fill in the blank, “Warrant is: __________ .”

Plantinga then summarises, in his third volume:

The question is as old as Plato’s Theaetetus: what is it that distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief? What further quality or quantity must a true belief have, if it is to constitute knowledge? This is one of the main questions of epistemology. (No doubt that is why it is called ‘theory of knowledge’.) Along with nearly all subsequent thinkers, Plato takes it for granted that knowledge is at least true belief: you know a proposition p only if you believe it, and only if it is true. [–> I would soften to credibly, true as we often use knowledge in that softer, defeat-able sense cf Science] But Plato goes on to point out that true belief, while necessary for knowledge, is clearly not sufficient: it is entirely possible to believe something that is true without knowing it . . .

[Skipping over internalism vs externalism, Gettier, blue vs grue or bleen etc etc] Suppose we use the term ‘warrant’ to denote that further quality or quantity (perhaps it comes in degrees), whatever precisely it may be, enough of which distinguishes knowledge from mere true belief. Then our question (the subject of W[arrant and] P[roper] F[unction]): what is warrant?

My suggestion (WPF, chapters 1 and 2) begins with the idea that a belief has warrant only if it is produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly, subject to no disorder or dysfunction—construed as including absence of impedance as well as pathology. The notion of proper function is fundamental to our central ways of thinking about knowledge. But that notion is inextricably bound with another: that of a design plan.37

Human beings and their organs are so constructed that there is a way they should work, a way they are supposed to work, a way they work when they work right; this is the way they work when there is no malfunction . . . We needn’t initially take the notions of design plan and way in which a thing is supposed to work to entail conscious design or purpose [–> design, often is naturally evident, e.g. eyes are to see and ears to hear, both, reasonably accurately] . . .

Accordingly, the first element in our conception of warrant (so I say) is that a belief has warrant for someone only if her faculties are functioning properly, are subject to no dysfunction, in producing that belief.39 But that’s not enough.

Many systems of your body, obviously, are designed to work in a certain kind of environment . . . . this is still not enough. It is clearly possible that a belief be produced by cognitive faculties that are functioning properly in an environment for which they were designed, but nonetheless lack warrant; the above two conditions are not sufficient. We think that the purpose or function of our belief-producing faculties is to furnish us with true (or verisimilitudinous) belief. As we saw above in connection with the F&M complaint [= Freud and Marx], however, it is clearly possible that the purpose or function of some belief-producing faculties or mechanisms is the production of beliefs with some other virtue—perhaps that of enabling us to get along in this cold, cruel, threatening world, or of enabling us to survive a dangerous situation or a life-threatening disease.

So we must add that the belief in question is produced by cognitive faculties such that the purpose of those faculties is that of producing true belief.

More exactly, we must add that the portion of the design plan governing the production of the belief in question is aimed at the production of true belief (rather than survival, or psychological comfort, or the possibility of loyalty, or something else) . . . .

[W]hat must be added is that the design plan in question is a good one, one that is successfully aimed at truth, one such that there is a high (objective) probability that a belief produced according to that plan will be true (or nearly true). Put in a nutshell, then, a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth. We must add, furthermore, that when a belief meets these conditions and does enjoy warrant, the degree of warrant it enjoys depends on the strength of the belief, the firmness with which S holds it. This is intended as an account of the central core of our concept of warrant; there is a penumbral area surrounding the central core where there are many analogical extensions of that central core; and beyond the penumbral area, still another belt of vagueness and imprecision, a host of possible cases and circumstances where there is really no answer to the question whether a given case is or isn’t a case of warrant.41 [Warranted Christian Belief (NY/Oxford: OUP, 2000), pp 153 ff. See onward, Warrant, the Current Debate and Warrant and Proper Function; also, by Plantinga.]

So, we may profitably distinguish [a] Plantinga’s specification (bill of requisites) for warrant and [b] his theory of warrant. The latter, being (for the hard core):

a belief has warrant for a person S only if that belief is produced in S by cognitive faculties functioning properly (subject to no dysfunction) in a cognitive environment [both macro and micro . . . ] that is appropriate for S’s kind of cognitive faculties, according to a design plan that is successfully aimed at truth.

Obviously, warrant comes in degrees, which is just what we need to have. Certain things are known to utterly unchangeable certainty, others are to moral certainty, others for good reason are held to be reasonably reliable though not certain enough to trust when the stakes are high, other things are in doubt as to whether they are knowledge, some things outright fail any responsible test.

That’s why I have taken up and commend a modified form, recognising that what we think is credibly, reliably true today may oftentimes be corrected for cause tomorrow. (Back in High School Chemistry class, I used to imagine a courier arriving at the door to deliver the latest updates to our teacher.)

Yes, I accept that many knowledge claims are defeat-able, so open-ended and provisional.

Indeed, that is part of what distinguishes the prudence and fair-mindedness of sober knowledge claims hard won and held or even stoutly defended in the face of uncertainty and challenge from the false certitude of blind ideologies. Especially, where deductive logical schemes can have no stronger warrant than their underlying axioms and assumptions and where inductive warrant provides support, not utterly certain, incorrigible, absolute demonstration.

That said, we must recognise that some few things are self-evident, e.g.:

While self-evident truths cannot amount to enough to build a worldview, they can provide plumb line tests relevant to the reliability of warrant for what we accept as knowledge:

Such, of course, bring to the fore Ciceronian first duties of reason:

Marcus [in de Legibus, introductory remarks, C1 BC, being Cicero himself]: . . . we shall have to explain the true nature of moral justice, which is congenial and correspondent with the true nature of man [–> we are seeing the root vision of natural law, coeval with our humanity] . . . . “Law (say [“many learned men”]) is the highest reason, implanted in nature, which prescribes those things which ought to be done, and forbids the contrary” . . . . They therefore conceive that the voice of conscience is a law, that moral prudence is a law [–> a key remark] , whose operation is to urge us to good actions, and restrain us from evil ones . . . . the origin of justice is to be sought in the divine law of eternal and immutable morality. This indeed is the true energy of nature, the very soul and essence of wisdom, the test of virtue and vice.

We may readily expand such first duties of reason: to truth, to right reason, to prudence, to sound conscience, to neighbour, so also to fairness and justice. Where, it may readily be seen that the would-be objector invariably appeals to the said duties. Does s/he object, false, or doubtfully so, or errors of reason, or failure to warrant, or unfairness or the like, alike, s/he appeals to the very same duties, collapsing in self-referentiality. So, instead, let us acknowledge that these are inescapable, true, self-evident.

It may help, too to bring out first principles of right reason, such as:

Laws of logic in action as glorified common-sense first principles of right reason

Expanding as a first list:

Such enable us to better use our senses and faculties to build knowledge. END

U/D May 16, regarding the Overton window, first, just an outline:

Next, as applied:

Backgrounder, on the political spectrum:

Comments
Paige, so what's next? Merit badges in rioting, looting, oral sex, the Tower of Power, and how to fist your boyfriend in a gay pride parade while keeping your tutu in place? Nothing wrong with any of that diversity, right? Viva le Progress!Karen McMannus
May 16, 2021
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KF you started this current part of the thread at 239. You think the world is going to hell in a handbasket, for various reasons, and I am concerned for other reasons. Then Stephen chimed in with stereotypes about “progressives”. What you call tangents are actually details, and details are worth discussing.Viola Lee
May 16, 2021
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SB
They are forcing some of these poor kids to earn a “diversity” badge. Bad stuff
Yes. Who could ever think that diversity was a bad thing?paige
May 16, 2021
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SB @281, who said that the scouts were only American? They were started as an English institution by Lord Bayden Powell during the Boer war. In, I must say, a way that can only be judged by today’s standards as child abuse.paige
May 16, 2021
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VL (et al), the rightful focus of this thread from OP on is knowledge and its warrant. If that is not set straight, nothing else thereafter can be straight, whatever litanies of attack points, strawman caricatures, hobby horses and demands for year zero resets age made. That for nigh on 300 comments there has been a strong tendency to distractive, polarising tangents speaks volumes on why we need to refocus the central issue. Where, if that is not straight, for cause, there is no confidence in the soundness of opinions and assertions. For, there is no reason to take it that we are not dealing with today's Cretans, liars, lazy gluttons, addicted to perverted pleasures, filled with rationalisations of error and worse than mere error, refusing manifest duty to truth, right reason, prudence and neighbour. It is patently ill advised to cede any credibility much less power to such. The predictable consequences for the ship of state are on record from the days of Plato. KF PS: An instructive article https://philosophynow.org/issues/101/The_Ship_of_Fools note the magazine's cover illustration.kairosfocus
May 16, 2021
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Paige: --- "The Boy Scouts still exist. One of my daughters is still a leader. They have had gay leaders, female leaders and transgendered leaders. How has this made the scouts any less of a good influence on our youth? Please provide examples." I did a quick Google search and found this: "On February 18, 2020, the National BSA filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and is currently restructuring its financial situation. On November 16, 2020, the National BSA disclosed in their bankruptcy filings that 92,700 former Scouts had reported sexual abuse by members of the organization." Meanwhile, it recently came to my attention that this same bunch supports Black Lives Matter, a communist organization that has called for the disruption of the nuclear family. They are forcing some of these poor kids to earn a "diversity" badge. Bad stuffStephenB
May 16, 2021
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Well, thanks, I think. For what it's worth I've been married once, heterosexually, for quite a few decades, with, as I've said children and grandchildren, and I'm pleased to be able to say that. I also feel good about those friends of mine who have done likewise. But I have lots of friends that I also support who have had all sorts of different situations: divorces, re-marriages, no children, long-term relationships without marriage, same-sex marriages, etc. All of these people, some more than others in ways not related to their marriage situations, have contributed to our society in, in general, just as moral a way as I have. My nuclear marriage, while good, doesn't give me a special moral status in my eyes. But you say my main problem is that I "refuse to accept" the nuclear's family's "rightful role". as the primary institution and the most important cultural influence." Actually, what I don't accept is your characterization as a "refusal" on my part. I think it would be good if our society were such that there were fewer divorces, for instance, just as I think it would be good as for us to have ways for wealth and education to be more equally distributed in society so children could get a more equitable growth opportunities (to name something else I think would be good.) But the world is not like that, so I support all those people who have to cope with different situations. But, and this is where we disagree: I think you refuse to accept that same-sex attraction is a natural (and in the words of some of my friends, God-given) part of who they are, and who thus deserves the right to a secular marriage. Now I know various religious groups don't accept this, and that is fine: they don't have to give their blessings. But marriage is a civil act, and doesn't necessitate any religious connection. I was married by a district judge, and had no religious ceremony or blessing, and my marriage has been as solid as any. But I have friends who are now in same-sex marriages, some with religious connections and some without. I'm as happy for them as I am my heterosexual friends, because I think my same-sex friends deserve all the emotional, loving, legal, etc. benefits that marriage conveys.Viola Lee
May 16, 2021
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SB (attn, Vl, Paige, Seversky et al): As I again ponder the OP and its foundational nature in restoring sanity to thought on what is called knowledge as a requisite to restoring soundness in general, I am astonished by the drift to trying to fly before one can crawl. Let's see if we can at least rescue a few things from the problem of tangents, pet peeves at the Judaeo-Christian heritage of our civilisation and a herd of favourite hobby horses. And yes, I am going to make an analysis in sweeping, highly compressed outline yet again. Startpoint, hyperskepticism, bane of our intellectual culture: 1: Hyperskepticism vs hypercredulity Over a decade ago as I pondered the thinking around UD on selective hyperskepticism, one of the issues was, isn't there an issue of hypercredulity (with particular reference to those clinging to alleged outdated crutches of "religion")? The sound answer turned out to be no. For, if one is selectively hyperskeptical, disbelieving what s/he ought to have believed (had s/he applied responsibly consistent standards of evidence) it is because one already has believed what one should not believe. What, appears in the OP as, crooked yardstick thinking vs a naturally straight and upright plumb line. Where obviously, if one is irked by and cannot acknowledge a plumb-line, self evident truth, that is diagnostic of warped yardsticks being used as reference standards for one's thinking. So, we come to: 2: The crooked yardstick, the highest form of the agit prop operator's art: obviously, there is just one way to be straight, but there literally are infinitely many ways to be crooked, so if one has made a particular brand of crookedness his/her yardstick of what is imagined straight, accurate, upright, then all comers that fail to match one's magic key (think, Yale lock) will be locked out. So, the agit prop operator knows that a strong enough cleverly warped ideology provides a lock-in and a lock-out. Where, s/he needs to have designated authorities as the new magisterium (Mr Smith, what is 2 + 2? . . . whatever the Party needs at the moment . . .), and to polarise emotions through beguiling narratives that become the icons and myths of the year zero great reset new order. (See why Red Guard shock troops/rioters of the new order burn or censor inconvenient books and destroy inconvenient monuments? They need to warp the understanding of history so people forget the sound lessons of history, for, such ideologues know that sound history is their worst enemy, being full of cases of plumb-lines being discarded only to end in shipwreck.) 3: A flawed political spectrum: In this context, a major means of warping thought (thus, what is deemed canonical knowledge and the conventional wisdom of those seeing themselves as vanguards of the new order . . .) is the deeply flawed left/centre/right [LCR] political spectrum and the linked myth that progress lies to the left of the ever drifting centre as the overton window shifts. (It seems, I have a chart to add to the OP on BATNAs and the window of political possibilities. DV, after this comment.) Of course, the left has had a lot of continuity, but since the collapse of monarchy as a viable order once four empires were shattered in 1914 - 18, the centre and the right have been a chaos of confusions. For instance, Fascism, explicitly derived from radical socialist thought, has been typically deemed "right wing" in part influenced by Stalin and his agit prop that put him in the "centre." of all things. Instead, as the to be added to OP will show in a nutshell, a better, historically anchored spectrum is from autocracy and oligarchy [lawless then lawful] then the C18 - 20 breakthrough, constitutional representational democracy pivoting on rights, then fading into anarchy and state of nature as a repeller pole. The key is, to understand that democracies provide freedom but in themselves are dangerously unstable. (That's why they were in severe discredit from the collapse of Athens through the Peloponnesian war until the printing revolution, the ferment surrounding the reformation and the rise of sufficient productivity and leisure that people at large could form a viable, informed, morally governed public that respected the natural moral law and supported it through strong cultural influences.) Democracies are critically dependent on cultural buttresses that stabilise them so that we preserve lawfulness while enjoying unprecedented, widespread freedom through the civil peace of justice, due balance of rights, freedoms and duties. By contrast, there is a very stable, historically dominant form of government: lawless oligarchy. (Autocrats need supportive elites so apart from foundational situations -- such as Exodus 18 records -- oligarchy is the historic centre of government. The debate over the long haul of history was to have lawful states, given the propensity of elites to become utterly perverse and nihilistically corrupt, with Nero Caesar as Exhibit B, Caligula edging him out slightly on perversity but not as well known. Rom 1 in our NT gives a sketch of the times. Recall, Empire, there was what happened after failure of the Republic, in a desperate attempt to shore up order. Over the past century, Case no 3 is a yardstick of such misrule, Hitler. Actually, no 2 Stalin and no 1 Mao outstrip him by far. Fidel, is a piker on numbers murdered but has been made into an icon of the progressives, along with his associate one Ernesto "Che" Gueverra, late Dentist of Chile. The same who appears on so many tee shirts worn by the ill informed. That we don't typically understand the associated lesson on how radical revolutions led by ruthless ideologues predictably end in lawless, ideologically driven oligarchy, speaks volumes on the crooked yardsticks we have already swallowed.) We can now fill in blanks and connect dots regarding our present perils as the ongoing US Black theme colour revolution by McFaul subversion of elections, media and law reaches Reichstag fire phase. This, in context of a wider geostrategic global 4th generation war, de facto World War IV. (The Cold War was WW3, and since 1979 it overlapped with then emergent WW4. WW3 ended with the collapse of the Iron Curtain and the USSR, now a generation ago and it seems largely forgotten, with bloodily bought lessons unheeded. Do I need to add that WW2 was emerging for almost a decade before it broke out into full blown global high kinetic nuke threshold war between 1939 and 1941? Do I need to underscore that Stalin's shift to territorial pushes in the late 30's had a lot to do with that, cf the key enabling step, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact? Without that cynical pact, the move against Poland, carved up between Germany and the USSR, and the blitz in the West May 10, 1940 -- 81 years ago this month -- would have been impossible. 1939 is of course, the point where fission was discovered, setting the clock ticking on the race to nukes.) Don't we even recognise that George Orwell's two-minute hate was meant as satirical parody not a blueprint for the media? ( Coke, it's the real thing vs the usual chant of the latest agit prop agenda item should tell us a few things on how we are being indoctrinated.) 4: Moral yardstick 1 and the first duties of reason: Above, it was suggested that I should abandon listing a cluster of Ciceronian first duties as canons of highest reason framing our built in moral government, in favour of a simple case of the manifest self evident truth of child torture for pleasure. My problem, here, is that I recall vividly that much the same, minus a sock puppet or two, were busily objecting and evading in much the same way when i used a real world case of kidnapping, sexual torture and murder of a young child on the way home from school. We have crooked yardstick thinking at work. The proper response to litanies of evil bible talk points, blind scientism, equally blind colour revolution thought policing, attacks on family, church and other buttresses of democracy is to recognise them as symptoms, not root causes. The root issue is, warped thinking, warped because it irks at the moral government that shapes rationality through self-evident first duties. Which, such will stoutly resist, claiming that truth and reason are on their side. Of course, neatly omitting that truth and reason have probative force precisely because we have consciences that testify to the binding force of the first duties. I clip from 152 above, which was studiously evaded:
– Here [in Cicero's opening remarks for his De Legibus, 50 BC], there is a structure of thought, from BEFORE 50 BC, which speaks to Greek-Roman reflection on justice, government, law and state, with implicit antecedents going back to the river valley civilisations of the wider fertile crescent. – Again, they start with our ensouled, enconscienced rationality as key defining characteristics of our humanity. Where, in the relevant sense from Plato’s The Laws Bk X, soul means self-moved, reflexively causal entities that thus show themselves to be alive through acting as first causes. – The duties of the first cluster [= truth, right reason, prudence] are duties to our core nature. Those of the second cluster [ = neighbour, fairness, justice, etc . . . leading onward to sound civil law] are duties of community of those of like nature, i.e. mutuality. – recall, this is something that is coming from pagan thought, not theistic thought. Yes, Paul and Jesus pointed to such acknowledged nature but I think it is manifest that the nature is a commons of responsible thinkers across time, space and culture. When Paul described cretans as criticised by one of their own as liars, lazy gluttons etc, he was pointing to the view of their own enlightened thinkers. (And BTW, this does not mean every time they spoke they lied, just that if they saw an opening to gain advantage, they would freely deceive and defraud. The result can be imagined.)
In short, we need to listen to Cicero summarising his antecedents, to restore balance. No it's not oh those Bible thumping fundies want to set up a right wing Christofascist theocracy, let's hit them with the usual agit prop barrage. Instead, we need to set reason itself straight, including that aspect of prudence that we properly term warrant, core of responsible knowledge claims. Which, undermines crooked yardstick narratives and talking points. Let me for variety cite something I recently ran across (a sign of the vicissitudes of encounter with the past by dint of Google), what is apparently a far better known clip from his On The Republic, Bk 3, c 54 BC:
, On the Republic, Bk 3: {22.} [33] L . . . True law is right reason in agreement with [--> our morally governed] nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it [--> as universally binding core of law], and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people [--> as binding, universal, coeval with our humanity], and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. [--> sound conscience- guided reason will point out the core] And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment. . . . – Marcus Tullius Cicero, c. 55 - 54 BC
Let's focus the key clip again:
True law is right reason in agreement with [--> our morally governed] nature , it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions . . . We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people [--> as binding, universal, coeval with our humanity], and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. [--> sound conscience- guided reason will point out the core]
_________ In short, law, rightly framed, is rooted in first duties of reason giving moral knowledge. Which brings us back to the pivotal nature of knowledge and so of warrant as that which gives sound credibility to knowledge claims in a world of error and deliberate deceit. We need to get knowledge straight and we need to get the role of the candle of the Lord within straight, conscience. It is only then that we will be able to save the buttresses that sustain an order of civilisation that should be regarded as precious, historically rare, always under threat of the corrupt, incompetent and selfishly ambitious, and also worth fighting for. That we despise the precious gem we have in hand, seeking to replace it with what we imagine shines brighter, is a sign of how suicidally warped our age is. KFkairosfocus
May 16, 2021
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VL: --- "what do you think about families consisting of divorced people with children who then remarry to create a blended family. Or what about single-parent families? Both of these are “other kinds of families” that I support. Does my support for them indicate hatred, or cold indifference, to the nuclear family?" As I reflect further, and as you respond to my comments, it seems to me that the main problem with your position is not so much that you hate the traditional nuclear family (a heterosexual union consisting of a mother and father who will transmit sound moral values) so much as you refuse to accept its rightful role as the primary institution and the most important cultural influence.StephenB
May 16, 2021
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Jerry
Which ones are not absurd or vacuous? Name a couple. Let me start by picking a vacuous one, universal health care.
How is this vacuous? There are many countries that provide health care for everyone, regardless of status. Canada, UK, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand and many more. In fact, there are more countries in the G20 that provide it than those who don’t. And don’t get me wrong. They each have weaknesses, serious weaknesses. But most of them score better than us on life expectancy, infant mortality, and many other measures of health care. Where we surpass other countries is the quality of health care for those who can afford it. That is not the legacy I would like to leave for our country.paige
May 16, 2021
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SB
If a school decides that biological males who identify as females should not be permitted to shower with girls or use their restrooms, would that be an imposed restriction on other people’s freedom.
Who’s people’s freedoms?
If a preacher makes a pubic declaration that homosexual activity is intrinsically disordered and could send a soul to hell, would that qualify as an imposed restriction?
No. A preacher is free to declare whatever he wants and try to get others to impose restrictions on homosexuals. Just as those who disagree with the preacher are free to advocate for restrictions on the preacher because of his homophobic beliefs. That is what freedom is about. Don’t blame the system because the homosexuals are better at marketing than the preachers.
If, when the boy scouts existed, they had decided that a transgender should not be permitted to serve as scout leader, would that have qualified as an imposed restriction?
The Boy Scouts still exist. One of my daughters is still a leader. They have had gay leaders, female leaders and transgendered leaders. How has this made the scouts any less of a good influence on our youth? Please provide examples.paige
May 16, 2021
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I agree with Paige on almost all of those positions.
Which ones are not absurd or vacuous? Name a couple. Let me start by picking a vacuous one, universal health care. What is that? I have no idea. Is it the best health care in the world. That is obviously not available to any but a few because of scarcity of resources. So what level is the minimum for universal health care? And does universal mean the world? This is one of those things that sounds good but is meaningless because it can never be specified or implemented. But I am a good guy because I propose it. Who could ever be against it? The rest are similarly misguided.jerry
May 16, 2021
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Well, Stephen, your description of my position isn't the way I see the situation. Bit I'm curious, what do you think about families consisting of divorced people with children who then remarry to create a blended family. Or what about single-parent families? Both of these are "other kinds of families" that I support. Does my support for them indicate hatred, or cold indifference, to the nuclear family?Viola Lee
May 16, 2021
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SB
What you hate is the prospect of a nuclear family as an exclusive institution.
Since the nuclear family has never been an exclusive institution, why would I hate it?paige
May 16, 2021
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Sandy/267
You support contradictory causes which give us a hint about you. Would have been better for you to be a naive student.
I agree with Paige on almost all of those positions. Maybe it's naïve to think you can fit people neatly into boxes like "conservative" or "liberal" or that labelling them as such tells you everything they believe in. Maybe it's naïve to think that "worldview" is anything other than a vague and incoherent concept.Seversky
May 16, 2021
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Viola Lee: --- "However, you are mistaken to think that I hate any of these things. I support multiple types of families, and I don’t support thinking of the nuclear family as you mean it as the only acceptable form of family." If you think so little of the nuclear family that you would neutralize its once privileged status as the primary institution that supports natural rights by comparing it favorably to "other types" of families, and, in the process, destroy its original purpose, and if you would transfer that special privilege to the secular state, which rejects natural rights in principle, then I don't know of any other word to describe your attitude other than hate or, perhaps, cold indifference, which is almost the same thingStephenB
May 16, 2021
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"If a preacher makes a pubic declaration that homosexual activity is intrinsically disordered and could send a soul to hell, would that qualify as an imposed restriction?" No. It's the preacher's prerogative to say that to his or her congregation. If somebody doesn't like it, they can just choose not to go to that church. In fact, anyone can make such a public declaration if they wish. Others may choose to ignore them or argue with them or dislike them for that position–those are all possible consequences–but someone saying that doesn't impose restrictions on anyone else's freedoms.Viola Lee
May 16, 2021
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Paige --- "I support freedom for religion except when it imposed restrictions on other people’s freedoms." If a school decides that biological males who identify as females should not be permitted to shower with girls or use their restrooms, would that be an imposed restriction on other people's freedom. If a preacher makes a pubic declaration that homosexual activity is intrinsically disordered and could send a soul to hell, would that qualify as an imposed restriction? If, when the boy scouts existed, they had decided that a transgender should not be permitted to serve as scout leader, would that have qualified as an imposed restriction?StephenB
May 16, 2021
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Stephen, add "What you hate is the prospect of a nuclear family as an exclusive institution. However, you are mistaken to think that I hate any of these things. I support multiple types of families, and I don't support thinking of the nuclear family as you mean it as the only acceptable form of family, but that doesn't mean that I hate the position that it is. You seem to be the one that seems to think not being for something and hating it are synonymous. And re 265, it is the phrase "by definition" that I object to. There is no "definition of progressives" that uniformly describes some monolithic group of people, and your use of the phrase is just one of the ways that you embedded in your sterotypes.Viola Lee
May 16, 2021
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Paige
Sandy Paige probably you are a young and unexperienced(not to use a harsher term ) student.
On the contrary. I am in my mid sixties, have worked in over 25 countries in North and South America, Asia, Australasia, Africa and Europe, and continue to work with people from over 70 countries, covering most cultures and religions. I am not a member of either party, although I support some policies from both. I oppose abortion but don’t see a path towards eliminating the demand for them. I oppose deficit budgets except in times of crisis. I support the right for someone to take a knee or burn the flag. I support full support for veterans. I oppose super-pacs. I support freedom of speech, which also includes the right of people to advocate for consequences (eg, boycotting, withholding advertising revenue, etc) for people who’s speech you disagree with. I support freedom for religion except when it imposed restrictions on other people’s freedoms. I support same sex marriage but also support the right of any church to not preside over SSM. I support universal health care but not government delivery of these services. I support the 2nd amendment. I believe that there is systemic racism but it is much better than it was 50+ years ago. I think change is inevitable so it is in our best interest to help guide this change rather than blindly resist it.
:) You support contradictory causes which give us a hint about you. Would have been better for you to be a naive student.Sandy
May 16, 2021
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---"Nobody hates the nuclear family." You missed my comment @263.StephenB
May 16, 2021
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---"And please let me know your source for your statement” “Progressives, by definition, are supporters of a totalitarian government because they view the state (not the family) as the primary institution for shaping the culture.” I didn't use a source. If I had, I would have cited it. Why should I call on someone else to say what only I can say in the way I want to say it? Please don't be so petty. We have bigger fish to fry than that. The point you need to understand is that the nuclear family should be the primary institution and the state should be secondary. The former is supposed to offer direction for the latter and not the other way around.StephenB
May 16, 2021
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SB
Of course you left out the “nuclear” family One of the ways that progressives show their hatred for it is to define it out of existence by including elements that don’t belong there.
Nobody hates the nuclear family. We will be celebrating our 40th anniversary this year. We were married in a church and our three baptized kids are married, two in a church and one in a synagogue. Each of them now has their own nuclear family, one Catholic, one Jewish and one weak Christian.That doesn’t mean that other types of families, including single parent, shared custody, adoptive, multi-generational and same sex families cannot contribute equally to society. The only thing that inhibits this is the stigmas, prejudices and roadblocks that they often face by people who think that the nuclear family is the only one that should be acknowledged.paige
May 16, 2021
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---"I don’t hate nuclear families. My spouse and my children, who are now grown and some have kids of their own, are the most important social units in my life." What you hate is the prospect of a nuclear family as an exclusive institution that does not include "same-sex" marriage as a legitimate component.StephenB
May 16, 2021
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Paige ---"I don’t think that VL or I have ever said anything to support the “cancel culture”, but we are accused of supporting it. As well, neither VL or I have said anything in support of authoritative or totalitarian regimes, but those implications have been made." I am saying, in effect, that by arguing against natural rights and duties, you are supporting the opposite world view, which inexorably leads to authoritarianism and the cancel culture.StephenB
May 16, 2021
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---"And, I will add that Stephen’s comment is a prime example of something we have been discussing here, and that I mentioned: without knowing very much about me he throws me into a demonized stereotypical group for which he has nothing but disgust." I was responding to [a] the world view that you have been expressing for days and [b] the specific concerns that you cited @253. If, indeed, you are non-progressive in some areas, then that is a good thing and there may be some hope for you. Meanwhile, your overall posture is progressive in nature. You assume, for example, that it isn't appropriate for me to feel "disgust" over the progressivist world view, even when I am aware of its destructive nature. It is appropriate to feel disgust over something that really is disgusting. You don't seem to get that. Meanwhile, you assume, wrongly, that I am disgusted with you, as opposed to your world view. I make distinctions like that. Progressives do not. You don't simply disapprove of KF's world view, for example, you disapprove of *him*, and you have made this clear on many occasions.StephenB
May 16, 2021
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Stephen, I left out nuclear because families are bigger than the nuclear family, and in the modern world there are so many combinations of blended families and single -parent families, all of whose health are important to me, that I wanted to included a larger notion. I don't hate nuclear families. My spouse and my children, who are now grown and some have kids of their own, are the most important social units in my life. As Paige pointed out, you are illustrating two related things that I think are part of the problems in the world: working from very dichotomized, demonized stereotypes and not caring to find out about the views of real individuals who are unlikely to fit those stereotypes. And please let me know your source for your statement" “Progressives, by definition, are supporters of a totalitarian government because they view the state (not the family) as the primary institution for shaping the culture.” That doesn't sound at all like what myself and my friends, who I would consider progressives, believe.Viola Lee
May 16, 2021
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BA @ 254, thanks for the kind words.StephenB
May 16, 2021
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---"(Note: I left out “nuclear” because families comes in all sorts, including the extended family: grandparents, parents, and children that help establish the continuity that helps family extend over time.)" Of course you left out the "nuclear" family One of the ways that progressives show their hatred for it is to define it out of existence by including elements that don't belong there.StephenB
May 16, 2021
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Thanks, Paige, for saying some things I could have said, also.Viola Lee
May 16, 2021
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