Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is nature really a struggle in which natural selection is the key factor?

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British physicist David Tyler comments:

In a perceptive essay, Daniel Todes focuses attention on the reactions of Russian biologists to Darwin’s writings. Many of these naturalists “were evolutionists before 1859”, so they did not dissent from common ancestry. However, their experiences of the living world were quite different from Darwin and Wallace, who drew their inspiration from densely populated tropical forests and related habitats. They witnessed a struggle for existence that matched the description Thomas Malthus had given of human communities. Using the same logic, Darwin and Wallace were stimulated to think about winners and losers in populations of animals and plants. The Russian scientists lived in a different world.

[They] “investigated a vast under-populated continental plain. For them, nature was not an “entangled bank” – the image Darwin took from the Brazilian jungle. It was a largely empty Siberian expanse in which overpopulation was rare and only the struggle of organisms against a harsh environment was dramatic.”

The Russian response to living in a harsh environment was to develop “the language of communalism – stressing not individual initiative and struggle, but the importance of cooperation within social groups and the virtues of social harmony.” The analysis of Malthus did not match the biological communities in their part of the world, so Darwin’s metaphor of the “struggle for existence” was not, in their view, well grounded.

That’s always what bothered me. I see competition in nature, to be sure, but also lots of cooperation. Otherwise, life could not survive against non-life. There is much more non-life than life. That much should be obvious. For more, go here.

Tyler also points out that the modern synthesis that is supposed to save Darwinism is gone.

Earlier this year, Eugene Koonin published a masterly analysis of the impact of genomics on evolutionary thinking. This proved to be too meaty a study for a concise blog, and my initial draft was abandoned. Happily, a shorter overview has now been published, and this abstracts salient points from the research paper. Koonin notes that the 1959 Origin centennial was “marked by the consolidation of the modern synthesis” but subsequent years have witnessed great changes which have undermined its credibility. “The edifice of the modern synthesis has crumbled, apparently, beyond repair.”

Koonin uses the metaphor of “the landscape of evolutionary biology”. There are three distinct revolutions have occurred over the past half-century: the molecular, the microbiological and the genomic revolutions.

“[T]his year is the perfect time to ask some crucial questions: how has evolutionary biology changed in the 50 years since the hardening of the modern synthesis? Is it still a viable conceptual framework for evolutionary thinking and research?”

The molecular revolution culminated, says Koonin, in the neutral theory, which means that purifying selection is more common than positive selection. The microbiological revolution brought the world of prokaryotes into the domain of evolutionary biology, but it then became apparent that the concepts of Darwinism and the modern synthesis “applied only to multicellular organisms”. The genomic revolution revealed that the living world was “a far cry from the orderly, rather simple picture envisioned by Darwin and the creators of the modern synthesis”. In particular, it is now interpreted as an “extremely dynamic world where horizontal gene transfer (HGT) is not a rarity but the regular way of existence, and mobile genetic elements that are vehicles of HGT are ubiquitous”. “The discovery of pervasive HGT and the overall dynamics of the genetic universe destroys not only the tree of life as we knew it but also another central tenet of the modern synthesis inherited from Darwin, namely gradualism. In a world dominated by HGT, gene duplication, gene loss and such momentous events as endosymbiosis, the idea of evolution being driven primarily by infinitesimal heritable changes in the Darwinian tradition has become untenable.”

Koonin is serious in saying that all the concepts of the modern synthesis are in need of a fundamental overhaul. “Moreover, with pan-adaptationism gone forever, so is the notion of evolutionary progress that is undoubtedly central to traditional evolutionary thinking, even if this is not always made explicit. The summary of the state of affairs on the 150th anniversary of the Origin is somewhat shocking. In the postgenomic era, all major tenets of the modern synthesis have been, if not outright overturned, replaced by a new and incomparably more complex vision of the key aspects of evolution. So, not to mince words, the modern synthesis is gone.”

Koonin tentatively identifies two candidates to fill the vacuum left by the discarded modern synthesis. The first of these appears to emphasis the role of chance; the second appears to emphasise law. “The first is the population-genetic theory of the evolution of genomic architecture, according to which evolving complexity is a side product of non-adaptive evolutionary processes occurring in small populations where the constraints of purifying selection are weak. The second area with a potential for major unification could be the study of universal patterns of evolution such as the distribution of evolutionary rates of orthologous genes, which is nearly the same in organisms from bacteria to mammals or the equally universal anticorrelation between the rate of evolution and the expression level of a gene. The existence of these universals suggests that simple theory of the kind used in statistical physics might explain some crucial aspects of evolution.”

It is not difficult to predict that Koonin’s analysis will not be received quietly by the very vocal leaders of evolutionary biology. They are still entrenched in neoDarwinism and show no signs of conceding any ground to anyone.

Go here for more.

Actually, Koonin is just as likely to be ignored as not quietly received. The fantasy creation story of fashionable atheism is in many places, government policy. Its proponents often have tenure and get their pay every month. The only solution is eventual retirement parties, followed by a big revaluation – = what do we really know? How much is mere propaganda?

Comments
weasel man:
Schneider’s ev program simulates a couple of known evolutionary mechanisms and shows that they are sufficient to generate information in a genome.
Two problems with that: 1- Shannon Information is nothing more than mere complexity 2- EV does not correlate to living organisms. Also "evolutionary mechanisms" is irrelevant. Design is natural. Unitelligent mechansims? How, exactly, was that determined? But anyway keep being a weasel, it suits you very well...Joseph
November 25, 2009
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Mung at 102, Schneider's ev program simulates a couple of known evolutionary mechanisms and shows that they are sufficient to generate information in a genome. He then shows that the information generated reflects what is found in real biological systems. You can read his papers and his code to see that this creation of information occurs. While his simulation doesn't show that this is how the information came about in the real biological systems, it does show that it could come about via these known, natural, unintelligent mechanisms. That refutes tgpeeler's (and others') claim that information cannot be the result of natural processes.Mustela Nivalis
November 25, 2009
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Are those mechanisms blind and undirected? THAT is what is being debated.
Joseph is correct. This is what computer simulations allegedly demonstrate, and why they are claimed to be relevant to the debate over biological information.Mung
November 25, 2009
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It is generally agreed that the sense of information isolated by Claude Shannon and used in mathematical information theory is legitimate, useful, and relevant in many parts of biology. In this sense, anything is a source of information if it has a range of possible states, and one variable carries information about another to the extent that their states are physically correlated. But it is also agreed that many uses of informational language in biology seem to make use of a richer and more problematic concept than Shannon's. - here
Mung
November 25, 2009
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Mung at 94, I’m interetsd in finding out: 1. how he defines information 2. how he measures it 3. how his definition differs from the “colloquial and informal” usage 4. how he ties it to Shannon information. His PhD thesis is online and very readable. The description of his simulator and a lot of discussion about it is available on the ev homepage.Mustela Nivalis
November 25, 2009
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Mung at 93, How does Shannon define information mathematically? His seminal paper is available online. There are many other online resources that discuss and apply Shannon Information.Mustela Nivalis
November 25, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis
As it turns out, an increase in Shannon Information has been demonstrated in a simulation of simple evolutionary mechanisms corresponding to a real world organism.
Seeing that "evolution" is not being debated saying "evolutionary mechanisms" is useless and misleading. Are those mechanisms blind and undirected? THAT is what is being debated. And for anyone interested: The Problem of Information for the Theory of Evolution Has Tom Schneider Really Solved It?:Joseph
November 25, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis
For the record, I have observed your participation here on several threads and it is my personal opinion that you lack both a basic understanding of biology and the desire to acquire the required education.
IOW you can't answer my questions so you refuse to deal with them. You are an intellectual coward and a loser. You couldn't support your position if your life depended on it. All you can do is blindly parrot the high priests of evolution. And you sure as heck can't form a coherent argument. Oh BTW I will take my knowledge of biology over yours any and every day. I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. That said I will continue to respond to you as people reading this blog need to know how much of a coward you are.Joseph
November 25, 2009
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(Now – I know I will get no traction for my conclusions here, and that is fine. It is unnecessary to me)
Sounds like we're on the same track:
iirc, Shannon defines “information” as a reduction in uncertainty. I guess by that definition, the more information we have, the more certain we are. more certain about what?
Mung
November 24, 2009
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Hello R0b, There is certainly no need to be confused by the point I am making. It is appropriately narrow. There is no information within any atom of matter; there is only information about an atom of matter. And the only way to create that information is for the atom of matter to be perceived and for that perception to be transmitted. And that transmission will necessarily be by the use of symbols - no matter to where or how it is being transmitted. That includes from the sensory organ to the brain (or other organ), or from one entity to another. That is my point in a nutshell. (Now - I know I will get no traction for my conclusions here, and that is fine. It is unnecessary to me)Upright BiPed
November 24, 2009
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I’m very interested in your views on Schneider’s papers, once you’ve had the time to review them. I'm pretty sure both ev and Schneider's work have been discussed previously in the ID community, maybe over at iscid. I'm interetsd in finding out: 1. how he defines information 2. how he measures it 3. how his definition differs from the "colloquial and informal" usage 4. how he ties it to Shannon information.
Mung
November 24, 2009
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“Information” has a couple of common mathematical definitions. Are you willing to use Shannon Information for the rest of this discussion? The colloquial definition of information does not permit measurement, an essential characteristic of the scientific method.
Could we back up a few steps? How does Shannon define information mathematically? How do Chaitin-Kolmogorov define information mathematically? How does Shannon Information provide us with the means to measure information? Is it crucial to the discussion that we be able to "measure" information? How much information is in a novel? How much information is in a Berlinski essay on the Big Bang theory? iirc, Shannon defines "information" as a reduction in uncertainty. I guess by that definition, the more information we have, the more certain we are. more certain about what?Mung
November 24, 2009
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tgpeeler at 87, It will take me a little while to review Thomas Schneider’s work. In the meantime, I wonder what these evolutionary “mechanisms” are and again, I say, how is it possible for the information Schneider says is created by “evolution” to exist apart from some set of symbols that are arranged according to some set of rules? This is why the definition of information is so important. Since we've agreed to use Shannon Information as the metric, it is possible to compute the amount of information in a particular binding site, as Schneider does. Your questions about symbols and rules aren't applicable. And how did Schneider’s program come into existence? Did it write itself or happen by accident? What if I randomly changed a piece of code? Would you think that would improve his program or crash it? And if I changed it randomly again? And if his code could error correct itself wouldn’t that make it even more obvious that it didn’t arise by accident? Or by any conceivable “evolutionary process”? You're confusing the simulator itself with what is being simulated. Schneider's thesis discusses molecular binding sites observed in real biological organisms. He found an interesting correspondence between the amount of information required to identify a binding site and the amount of information present in the binding site. His software simulates simple mutation and differential reproductive success based on fitness. It's quite possible to modify the parameters of his simulation to determine the effects of different random changes. Applying random changes to the simulator itself would be the equivalent of trying to apply random changes to the laws of physics and chemistry -- they are the givens, not what is being modeled. I'm very interested in your views on Schneider's papers, once you've had the time to review them.Mustela Nivalis
November 24, 2009
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jerry:
So anybody who feigns confusion is being disingenuous. They are trying to play mind games with the ID people.
Speaking for myself, I can assure you that my confusion is not feigned, and my objective is clarification, not mind games. (Of course, that's exactly what you would expect a mind game player to say.) As I said before, my understanding of the colloquial usage of information doesn't seem to jibe with tgpeeler's claims. I don't know any way to align my understanding to his without asking for clarification. But we're still not on the same page. The lion's behavior in tgpeeler's scenario is not a symbol as I understand the term. So I'm left not knowing what tgpeeler means by symbol. And while he has at times described rules as syntactic, tgpeeler has recently described them as dictating what combinations of symbols mean. That changes my understanding of his usage of the term rules. The Encyclopedia of Philosophy article that you recommended shows that different people take different and contradictory approaches to the concept of information. Interestingly, the authors' metaphysical position seems to contradict that of tgpeeler, Stephen Meyer, and others in this debate. Upright BiPed's approach is yet another data point. When he says, "There is no information in the structure of an atom," presumably that applies to DNA molecules also. But we commonly speak of DNA containing information, so Upright BiPed's usage seems different from the common usage. I realize that the call for good definitions seems pedantic, but superficially reasonable arguments sometimes turn out to be specious when the details are fleshed out.R0b
November 24, 2009
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I would like to throw something out here - just because the obfuscation around the topic is often mind-numbing. Firstly, you always hear people saying things like...there is information that exist in, say, the structure of an atom, or the frequency at which a substance resonates, etc, etc,. This is incorrect because it is a category mistake as to what information is. There is no information in the structure of an atom. The structure of an atom is a matter of its existence, but it contains nothing more than its structure. It simply exists. The only time that information is extracted from the structure of an atom is when it is 1) perceived and 2) transmitted. Information is the product of perception – and perception cannot happen without transmission. The lowly earthworm does not accidently crawl onto a sidewalk and spend its remaining days desperately trying to dig a hole in the concrete. Instead, it senses its surroundings and transmits those perceptions to its ability to move on. Such is the case in every instance where information is exists, and is used. Perception is manifest step in the creation of information, and transmission must then follow. That transmission may be from my fingertips to my brain or from one’s lips to another’s ears, but in every case the transmission can only be accomplished by symbols and their rules (what we term as language in all its various and wonderful forms). All the rummaging over information (its measurement, qualities, value, definitions, usefulness) is completely secondary to its creation in the first place. Perception (and its transmission by symbols and rules) is the quality of an agent, and only of an agent. This conclusion is intractably validated by our universal experience with “information”. So when we see information being recorded, transcribed, and used to manipulate the atoms within living tissue, it is a dead give-away that it came about by the act of an agent. That’s why Tom Peeler’s challenge is valid, and it’s valid every time it is presented.Upright BiPed
November 24, 2009
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This whole discussion of information and biology is a joke. It is well known within biology just what is meant by information in the genome and it corresponds to how we use it here at ID. It is not Shannon information though apparently you can apply the Shannon information concept to it. But Shannon information has nothing to do with the information or instructions found in the genome which governs so many biological processes. So anybody who feigns confusion is being disingenuous. They are trying to play mind games with the ID people. It is easy to understand and the motives for pretending to not understand are the usual. So dealing with them when they ask for clarification is another example of playing the fools errand. One discussion of biological information is at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/information-biological/ And there are others. I recently finished a Teaching Company course on the DNA of humans and it was by an extremely anti ID person who constantly talked about information content of the genome and how it is used in biology. So anyone here who claims not to understand what information is are playing a game and those who want to pursue it with them then you are on the fools errand being led by the anti ID people.jerry
November 24, 2009
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#86 tgpeeler Your comment illustrates the need to clarify how the word "information" is being used - even when not defined mathematically. The zebra will flee when the lion charges. It is possible that this is because the zebra has some kind of process that associates charging lions with being killed and eaten, or it could be because zebras just instinctively flee when large animals charge at them. In either case it is not logically different as far as the zebra is concerned from a zebra fleeing when it hears a loud rumbling preceding an earthquake. It is not material that the lion happens to be a living threat. All that has happened is that the zebra has associated phenomenon X which is observed with phenomenon Y which is not (yet) observed. In this sense lightening is information about thunder and dark clouds information about rain. Indeed we say that clouds are a sign of rain (but not a symbol of rain). Physics has no problem producing signs of this type. The bee example is only different because it is harder to explain how the position of the food causes the behaviour of the bees. But it is within the scope of physics to do so. There are subtler uses of information. The response of the zebra and the bee is pretty much hard-wired but of course some species respond to signs because they have learned the association between sign and signified. For Pavlov's dogs the bell was a sign of food. A further development is confined to humans. I will use an example that the philosopher Grice famously used. Suppose I wish to communicate to you that your wife has been having an affair with someone else. If I send you a compromising photograph then that is little different from clouds giving information about rain. There is clear causal relationship between the compromising position and the photograph. The photograph would be incriminating and tell you about the affair even if you found it on the street. But if I draw a picture of your wife and her lover behaving improperly this only gives you information if you make some assumptions about my intention in drawing the picture - what Grice would call non-natural meaning. At this point we could say the picture is not just a sign but a symbol. Why do I make these distinctions. Well DNA is information in much the sense of the bee's dance. There is a regular association between the DNA and the amino acids and while there is a physical causal chain between the two it is not obvious simply by inspecting the sign what is signifies. But DNA is not information in the sense of the picture. The bases are not symbols of the corresponding amino acids. There is no need to make assumptions about the creator of the DNA to garner the information.Mark Frank
November 24, 2009
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Mustela @ 85 It will take me a little while to review Thomas Schneider’s work. In the meantime, I wonder what these evolutionary "mechanisms" are and again, I say, how is it possible for the information Schneider says is created by "evolution" to exist apart from some set of symbols that are arranged according to some set of rules? And how did Schneider's program come into existence? Did it write itself or happen by accident? What if I randomly changed a piece of code? Would you think that would improve his program or crash it? And if I changed it randomly again? And if his code could error correct itself wouldn't that make it even more obvious that it didn't arise by accident? Or by any conceivable "evolutionary process"?tgpeeler
November 24, 2009
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ROb @ 83 "For instance, animals without language capabilities observe their environment, thus taking in information. Why does this not count as communication of information without language?" Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my position on this. I am talking about information at a conceptual level. The cases that you describe do count as communication of information but there are still symbols and rules. Let's say that a lion is charging me, a zebra. That communicates to me, the zebra, that I best be getting my a$$ in gear or I'm history. As opposed to, say, a lion lying on the ground and paying no attention to me, in which case that communicates something else. In either case, the symbol is the lion's behavior and the rule is "lion charging = not good" and "lion not charging = good for now." The "natural selection" move won't work here because ns denies teleology so there would be no reason for anything to mean anything if one has a genuine intellectual commitment to the concept of ns. Which I say is nonsense but that is an entirely different conversation. To use another example, honey bees communicate with each other, by means of an elaborate dance, where the food is. Some dance steps mean go here and other dance steps mean go there. Why is this so? And why does it "mean" anything to other honey bees? It's because one set of movements (symbols) means one thing and another set of movements means another (rules). Without these symbols and rules no communication takes place. If all of a sudden I started writing this in German and you didn't understand the rules (vocabulary, syntax, and grammar) then no communication could take place. For communication to take place, as far as I can tell, it takes symbols and rules, under all circumstances, and an understanding of those rules on both the transmitting end (where the encoding takes place) and the receiving end (where the decoding takes place). The medium is irrelevant as long as it does not garble the message and this, I believe, was the focus of Shannon. How many bits can you jam through a pipe and have them come out on the other side as they went in. This is the problem for materialism and materialists. Nothing in the laws of physics has anything to say about why this is so. Only a mind or living thing can associate one thing with another. In the case of a bee, you may say, well, does the bee have a mind? I'd have to say no. But obviously the ability to recognize the symbols and understand the rules is either "learned" somehow or is pre-loaded into the DNA of the bee. A very interesting question but one that would never be addressed if the information question is ignored. I hope this helps or stimulates further questions.tgpeeler
November 24, 2009
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tgpeeler at 84, Thank you for your agreement to use Shannon Information as our definition. As it turns out, an increase in Shannon Information has been demonstrated in a simulation of simple evolutionary mechanisms corresponding to a real world organism. I recommend Thomas Schneider's ev papers and software as an excellent description of this process. Schneider's work clearly demonstrates that information can be generated by known evolutionary mechanisms, with no intelligence involved.Mustela Nivalis
November 24, 2009
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Mustela @ 80 "Are you willing to use Shannon Information for the rest of this discussion?" Yes. I am. Even though Shannon Information, as far as I can tell, only deals with the statistical aspect of information and ignores the syntactic and semantic aspects. But those aspects can safely, I believe, be ignored for the purposes of our discussion. You still have the same problem. Even at the statistical level you have symbols (0s and 1s) and rules for why a particular sequence of 0s and 1s means something and another does not, and why this is. Now explain to me solely in terms of physical laws why this is and which physical law addresses each component of the problem. Problem 1 - symbols. Problem 2 - rules. Thanks.tgpeeler
November 24, 2009
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Pardon the intrusion, but I don't see how tgpeeler's claims hold up, even under the colloquial usage of information. For instance, animals without language capabilities observe their environment, thus taking in information. Why does this not count as communication of information without language? Or even simpler, information about an object includes its momentum. If the object collides inelastically with another object, e.g. two billiard balls, the second object takes on the first object's momentum. Is this not a case of information being communicated? As to languages without rules, I already provided one to tgpeeler in a previous thread. The language of positive integers over the alphabet {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9} has no syntax rules -- every string is grammatical. I suspect that tgpeeler will respond to my counterexamples by disputing semantics. Thus Mustela's request for a univocal and quantitative definition. Why is it not reasonable for Mustela to try to nip the impending semantic problems in the bud?R0b
November 24, 2009
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Joseph, For the record, I have observed your participation here on several threads and it is my personal opinion that you lack both a basic understanding of biology and the desire to acquire the required education. Regrettably, I will refrain from responding to you again, hopefully saving both of us considerable frustration.Mustela Nivalis
November 24, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis, Shannon does not deal with "information" per se. Rather Shannon was only dealing with mere complexity. This is all discussed in "Signature in the Cell". You should read it as opposed to agruing from ignorance as if that ignorance is meaningful discourse. As for measurement- that leaves your position out of it.Joseph
November 24, 2009
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tgpeeler at 79, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I genuinely fail to understand how you think we can have a rational conversation without defining our terms. "Information" has a couple of common mathematical definitions. Are you willing to use Shannon Information for the rest of this discussion? The colloquial definition of information does not permit measurement, an essential characteristic of the scientific method. As an example of the problems with failing to clearly define terms, you yourself use the word "language" above in a vague and equivocal manner (not deliberately, I'm sure). The "language" of DNA is vastly different from human language, so drawing parallels is unlikely to lead to knowledge. Shannon information, then?Mustela Nivalis
November 24, 2009
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Mustela, what Upright, Joseph, and StephenB said. I told you I've never received a good argument against. Your evasion keeps the record intact. At the risk of being pedantic, because you may possibly be someone who actually thinks about things, let me quickly offer you the only possible ways to defeat my argument. 1. If naturalism doesn't entail that physics is the ultimate explanation for everything. But it does. That is part of the definition of naturalism. See The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy or the Oxford Guide Philosophy or any number of authors I could cite. 2. If you can separate information from life, or life from information. Just come up with one example of something living without DNA/RNA. 3. If you can communicate information without using a language. As I said before, I don't think you can even make that concept coherent. 4. Show me a language that doesn't have symbols and rules. Just one will do, of any kind. 5. Show me how a valid form of argument, in this case modus tollens, with true premises (it's sound), can be false. If P then Q. ~Q. Therefore, ~P. If naturalism is true (and the naturalistic story of life is true), then physics can explain everything. (True by definition.) But physics cannot explain language, information, or life. (see explanation above) Therefore, naturalism (and the naturalistic story of life) are false. Not only are they false, it's not even possible that they are true. Evolutionary "theory" is the biggest intellectual fraud of all time. Well, in science, anyway. Please attack the argument, if you like, and spare us all the bobbing and weaving. I've given you the cheat sheet as to how to make me/us look foolish. I think you'd jump at the chance. :-)tgpeeler
November 23, 2009
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----Mustela Nivalis: "It’s the “generally used” that’s the problem. If we don’t have a precise definition of a measurable quantity, we have no real way of discussing the amount of information in a particular biological system, no way to compare amounts of information, no way to determine if a mechanism creates or destroys information, indeed no way to tell if information is present at all." Darwinists crack me up. On the one hand, they claim that unguided forces can produce information and insist that the evolutionary pathway to get us there exists, even though they acknowledge that they have not yet found it. On the other hand, when ID explains WHY those unguided forces cannot climb that improbable mountain, Darwinists suddenly change tactics and claim not to know what it is. You've gotta to love it.StephenB
November 23, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis, According to Dr Meyer in "Signature in the Cell" the standard and accepted dictionary definition of information works just fine. As he points out the mathematical version can only point out mere complexity and cannot deal with content. You should probably read the book. Now how about a testable hypothesis for your position?Joseph
November 23, 2009
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"Now, how about that mathematically rigorous definition of information? Until we agree on one, there is little to discuss." Is this the case? Really? Is is possible that all these authors, and literally scores of dozens upon dozens of others are all completely capable of sharing ideas with each other under the terribly incoherent phrase of "information" right up until the point where their thoughts are meant to establish some meaning by which be intend to communicate with each other - and at that incredibly obvious moment - everything they've said becomes hopelessly meaningless because they have utterly failed to provide a rigorous mathematical model of what they had been intendeing to say? ...or is Mustela just FOS?Upright BiPed
November 23, 2009
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tgpeeler at 73, Hell, you give me one. Potty mouth. There are Christians reading this. ;-) I use information as the term is generally used and as is cited by these authors, all of whom are neo-Darwinists. It's the "generally used" that's the problem. If we don't have a precise definition of a measurable quantity, we have no real way of discussing the amount of information in a particular biological system, no way to compare amounts of information, no way to determine if a mechanism creates or destroys information, indeed no way to tell if information is present at all. Too often in these discussions I've seen people switch from one definition to another. That, often unintentional, equivocation leads to confusion. The concept of information is rich and therefore difficult to pin down into a formula or equation but perhaps if we just assume for the moment that life and ‘information,’ whatever that turns out to be, exactly, are inextricably linked, then we can proceed anyway. Without a clear definition, I couldn't possibly agree. In fact, this seems to be your conclusion, rather than a premise. For the sake of discussion, would you be willing to use Shannon's definition of information or would you prefer Kolmogorov complexity? If you disagree that ‘information’ and life are inseparable perhaps you can cite some example of a living thing that doesn’t have DNA/RNA. Otherwise, I still think I’m on pretty solid ground here. Without rigorous definitions, there is no solid ground. My other point is that it is impossible to have (create, transmit, understand) information apart from a language. Mechanisms identified by modern evolutionary theory routinely transfer information (for a particular definition of the word) from the environment to subsequent populations of organisms, with no language involved. If you deny this, we're probably using different definitions.Mustela Nivalis
November 23, 2009
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