Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is nature really a struggle in which natural selection is the key factor?

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British physicist David Tyler comments:

In a perceptive essay, Daniel Todes focuses attention on the reactions of Russian biologists to Darwin’s writings. Many of these naturalists “were evolutionists before 1859”, so they did not dissent from common ancestry. However, their experiences of the living world were quite different from Darwin and Wallace, who drew their inspiration from densely populated tropical forests and related habitats. They witnessed a struggle for existence that matched the description Thomas Malthus had given of human communities. Using the same logic, Darwin and Wallace were stimulated to think about winners and losers in populations of animals and plants. The Russian scientists lived in a different world.

[They] “investigated a vast under-populated continental plain. For them, nature was not an “entangled bank” – the image Darwin took from the Brazilian jungle. It was a largely empty Siberian expanse in which overpopulation was rare and only the struggle of organisms against a harsh environment was dramatic.”

The Russian response to living in a harsh environment was to develop “the language of communalism – stressing not individual initiative and struggle, but the importance of cooperation within social groups and the virtues of social harmony.” The analysis of Malthus did not match the biological communities in their part of the world, so Darwin’s metaphor of the “struggle for existence” was not, in their view, well grounded.

That’s always what bothered me. I see competition in nature, to be sure, but also lots of cooperation. Otherwise, life could not survive against non-life. There is much more non-life than life. That much should be obvious. For more, go here.

Tyler also points out that the modern synthesis that is supposed to save Darwinism is gone.

Earlier this year, Eugene Koonin published a masterly analysis of the impact of genomics on evolutionary thinking. This proved to be too meaty a study for a concise blog, and my initial draft was abandoned. Happily, a shorter overview has now been published, and this abstracts salient points from the research paper. Koonin notes that the 1959 Origin centennial was “marked by the consolidation of the modern synthesis” but subsequent years have witnessed great changes which have undermined its credibility. “The edifice of the modern synthesis has crumbled, apparently, beyond repair.”

Koonin uses the metaphor of “the landscape of evolutionary biology”. There are three distinct revolutions have occurred over the past half-century: the molecular, the microbiological and the genomic revolutions.

“[T]his year is the perfect time to ask some crucial questions: how has evolutionary biology changed in the 50 years since the hardening of the modern synthesis? Is it still a viable conceptual framework for evolutionary thinking and research?”

The molecular revolution culminated, says Koonin, in the neutral theory, which means that purifying selection is more common than positive selection. The microbiological revolution brought the world of prokaryotes into the domain of evolutionary biology, but it then became apparent that the concepts of Darwinism and the modern synthesis “applied only to multicellular organisms”. The genomic revolution revealed that the living world was “a far cry from the orderly, rather simple picture envisioned by Darwin and the creators of the modern synthesis”. In particular, it is now interpreted as an “extremely dynamic world where horizontal gene transfer (HGT) is not a rarity but the regular way of existence, and mobile genetic elements that are vehicles of HGT are ubiquitous”. “The discovery of pervasive HGT and the overall dynamics of the genetic universe destroys not only the tree of life as we knew it but also another central tenet of the modern synthesis inherited from Darwin, namely gradualism. In a world dominated by HGT, gene duplication, gene loss and such momentous events as endosymbiosis, the idea of evolution being driven primarily by infinitesimal heritable changes in the Darwinian tradition has become untenable.”

Koonin is serious in saying that all the concepts of the modern synthesis are in need of a fundamental overhaul. “Moreover, with pan-adaptationism gone forever, so is the notion of evolutionary progress that is undoubtedly central to traditional evolutionary thinking, even if this is not always made explicit. The summary of the state of affairs on the 150th anniversary of the Origin is somewhat shocking. In the postgenomic era, all major tenets of the modern synthesis have been, if not outright overturned, replaced by a new and incomparably more complex vision of the key aspects of evolution. So, not to mince words, the modern synthesis is gone.”

Koonin tentatively identifies two candidates to fill the vacuum left by the discarded modern synthesis. The first of these appears to emphasis the role of chance; the second appears to emphasise law. “The first is the population-genetic theory of the evolution of genomic architecture, according to which evolving complexity is a side product of non-adaptive evolutionary processes occurring in small populations where the constraints of purifying selection are weak. The second area with a potential for major unification could be the study of universal patterns of evolution such as the distribution of evolutionary rates of orthologous genes, which is nearly the same in organisms from bacteria to mammals or the equally universal anticorrelation between the rate of evolution and the expression level of a gene. The existence of these universals suggests that simple theory of the kind used in statistical physics might explain some crucial aspects of evolution.”

It is not difficult to predict that Koonin’s analysis will not be received quietly by the very vocal leaders of evolutionary biology. They are still entrenched in neoDarwinism and show no signs of conceding any ground to anyone.

Go here for more.

Actually, Koonin is just as likely to be ignored as not quietly received. The fantasy creation story of fashionable atheism is in many places, government policy. Its proponents often have tenure and get their pay every month. The only solution is eventual retirement parties, followed by a big revaluation – = what do we really know? How much is mere propaganda?

Comments
p.s. This is why I believe Michael Behe's irreducible complexity argument is irrelevant. It's elegant, but it addresses the physical 'machines.' Therefore it has nothing to say about how they were built in the first place. Behe's argument is better than Darwin's by orders of magnitude, in my estimation, but neither of them explain what needs to be explained. Apologies to Dr. Behe. Bill Dembski and Stephen Meyer are on the right track. Not that I am anybody to make such pronouncements but they seem correct to me.tgpeeler
November 23, 2009
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Hell, you give me one. I use information as the term is generally used and as is cited by these authors, all of whom are neo-Darwinists. The concept of information is rich and therefore difficult to pin down into a formula or equation but perhaps if we just assume for the moment that life and 'information,' whatever that turns out to be, exactly, are inextricably linked, then we can proceed anyway. If you disagree that 'information' and life are inseparable perhaps you can cite some example of a living thing that doesn't have DNA/RNA. Otherwise, I still think I'm on pretty solid ground here. My other point is that it is impossible to have (create, transmit, understand) information apart from a language. No one can deny that since the denial would necessarily involve language and therefore create an internal self-contradiction. Rendering the claim nonsense. Literally. I am trying to look at this problem in the most fundamental way. If Kupper is right, and I believe he is (about this), that the problem of the origin of life is the problem of the origin of information, that is akin to saying that the problem of the origin of life is the problem of the origin of language. I say this, again, because you can't have life without information and you can't have information without language. And since ALL languages are a system of symbols and rules what must ultimately be explained are the symbols and rules if you are going to explain life. Darwin's idea, no matter how "plausible" it sounded, doesn't even begin to address the real issue. This is a devastating argument, I believe, to naturalism and its story of life, neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory. I expect a lot of resistance to it but I don't expect good counter-arguments and I have never received good counter-arguments. In order to counter my claims, it seems to me that you must either separate life from information or information from language or language from symbols and rules. None of those things are possible. If you think it is possible then one example will be enough to falsify my claim. Or, you can show how some algorithmic process based on physical law can create information. But before you could do that, you would have to show how physics can describe some set of symbols and rules, i.e. a language, but physics has nothing to say, and will never have anything to say, about why some particular arrangement of symbols means something. Heck, the laws of physics are themselves written in the language of mathematics. I'm pretty sure that it is not even coherent to attempt to explain how "the laws of physics," can possibly explain language. But you are welcome to try. If someone cannot explain the origination of symbols and rules within their metaphysical framework, they are dead in the water. I, not being a materialist, can easily explain information and language. I have "mind" and "Mind" in my metaphysical explanatory tool kit. The naturalist does not. All he has is physics. You can't get to information from "there." You just can't.tgpeeler
November 23, 2009
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faded-Glory and jerry: I just posted over at Cornelious' thread. Turf-13 appears to represent a "loss of function", and hence a "loss of information". So, if fG's comment about Cornelius Hunter refers to this, then we're back to zero I suspect.PaV
November 23, 2009
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tgpeeler at 69, If you’ll allow me to cite a few authors: You're allowed. ;-) Now, how about that mathematically rigorous definition of information? Until we agree on one, there is little to discuss.Mustela Nivalis
November 23, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis, The latest in abio research says it takes quite a bit of agency intervention just to get an RNA molecule that will catalyze ONE bond. And please tell us about any of the rigor in any definitions used by evolutionists. Heck you can't even provide a testable hypothesis for your position. What does that say about you?Joseph
November 23, 2009
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Mustela @68 If you'll allow me to cite a few authors: Francis Crick: “In spite of our differences we all use a single chemical language, or, more precisely, as we shall see, two such languages, intimately related to each other.” Life Itself, page 39. “A protein is like a paragraph written in a twenty-letter language, the exact nature of the protein being determined by the exact order of the letters. With one trivial exception, this script never varies. Animals, plants, microorganisms and viruses all use the same set of twenty letters although, as far as we can tell, other similar letters could easily have been employed, just as other symbols could have been used to construct our own alphabet.” Life Itself. pages 44-45. Richard Dawkins: “You can treat the genetic code as a dictionary in which sixty-four words in one language (the sixty-four possible triplets of a four-letter alphabet) are mapped onto twenty-one words in another language (twenty amino acids plus a punctuation mark).” River Out of Eden, page 11. “Life is just bytes and bytes and bytes of digital information.” River Out of Eden, page 19. “Indeed, the whole DNA/protein-based information technology is so sophisticated – high tech, it has been called by the chemist Graham Cairns-Smith – that you can scarcely imagine it arising by luck, without some other self-replicating system as a forerunner.” River Out of Eden, page 150. “We have seen that DNA molecules are the centre of a spectacular information technology.” The Blind Watchmaker, page 126. Bernd-Olaf Kuppers: “To start with, a brief introduction to modern evolution theory is given (chapter 1). A central and fundamental concept of this theory is that of “biological information,” since the material order and the purposiveness characteristic of living systems are governed completely by information, which in turn has its foundations at the level of biological macromolecules (chapter 2). The question of the origin of life is thus equivalent to the question of the origin of biological information.” Information and the Origin of Life, from the introduction. “The term “biological information” requires clarification, and this is the purpose of part II. It will be shown that three dimensions of information can be distinguished: its syntactic, semantic, and pragmatic aspects.” “In contrast to this (syntactic), the semantic aspect is essential, since the elements of an organism that are governed by information have a special purpose and a meaning in the context of the maintenance of its life functions (chapter 4).” Information and the Origin of Life, From the introduction. Hubert P. Yockey: “The existence of a genome and the genetic code divides the living organisms from nonliving matter. There is nothing in the physico-chemical world that remotely resembles reactions being determined by a sequence and codes between sequences.” Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, page 2. “The belief of mechanist-reductionists that the chemical processes in living matter do not differ in principle from those in dead matter is incorrect. There is no trace of messages determining the results of chemical reactions in inanimate matter. If genetical processes were just complicated biochemistry, the laws of mass action and thermodynamics would govern the placement of amino acids in the protein sequences.” page 5. “Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies.” page 6. “The genetic information system is the software of life and, like the symbols in a computer, it is purely symbolic and independent of its environment. Of course, the genetic message, when expressed as a sequence of symbols, is nonmaterial but must be recorded in matter or energy.” (my emphasis) page 7. “Life is guided by information and inorganic processes are not.” page 8. It is in this sense that I refer to information. I don't think I'm out on a limb here. Looking forward to our discussion.tgpeeler
November 23, 2009
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tgpeeler at 67, The search for a perpetual motion machine is probably still an active area of research but that’s hardly an argument in its favor. Perpetual motion machines are not an active area of research because they have been demonstrated to inherently violate the laws of thermodynamics. Abiogenesis, on the other hand, suffers from no such fatal flaw. In fact, considerable progress is being made. While I usually hesitate to recommend Wikipedia, it's abiogenesis page is a reasonable overview with some good links to chase down the original research. If a book is something that contains information encoded in a language then perhaps you would agree with me that all books have authors. Take that as a major premise. Seems pretty undeniable to me. Since the idea of a book without an author is ludicrous in the extreme. Then let’s take as the minor premise that biological information encoded in the genetic language is a book. Calling a dog's tail a leg doesn't mean that a dog has five legs. Tell me the rigorous mathematical definition of information you are using and we may be able to have an interesting discussion.Mustela Nivalis
November 23, 2009
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Mustela @ 63 "Thus far, not all known chemical processes have been eliminated, by a long shot. Abiogenesis is an active area of research. If you want to posit a non-material explanation, you need to provide some hard evidence in favor of it rather than taking potshots at science." The search for a perpetual motion machine is probably still an active area of research but that's hardly an argument in its favor. The problem is not chemical processes. The problem, on any naturalistic/materialistic account of life, is that chemical processes, driven by the laws of physics, are conceptually inadequate to explain what really needs to be explained, and that is biological information. Information is the distinguishing characteristic of all life so that is what needs to be explained. Not brains or feathers or claws or fins. The existence of information in any context requires the existence of a language (symbols and rules for the manipulation or organization of those symbols into terms which are then combined in various ways defined by the rules of the language so as to encode, transmit, and decode information). But the problem for the materialist/naturalist is that neither physics nor chemistry have anything to say about why "it is raining" and "es regnet" both mean the same thing. And they never will because they deal with the physical world. But information is abstract. It is encoded in a physical substrate but it is apart from that substrate. It is a blatant category mistake to try to explain the abstract only in terms of the material (and denying the existence of the abstract entity in the process). This is a typical move of the naturalist. I can't explain design in terms of physics so I deny the existence of design and it becomes "apparent design." I can't explain the existence of a moral law in terms of physics so I deny the existence of a real moral law. But that move is unavailable now because information cannot be denied without using information. Checkmate. The materialist is painted into a corner from which he cannot escape. So what is the answer? Just a thought, we always know that information reduces to, or is explained by, mind. Only a mind, something "outside" of the physical world, although "encoded," if you will, in the physical world, can deal with symbols, the representation of one thing for another. Or the rules which govern those symbols. You can't begin to explain the contents of this post in terms of the laws of physics but a mind provides a very satisfying explanation. Let me put it this way. If a book is something that contains information encoded in a language then perhaps you would agree with me that all books have authors. Take that as a major premise. Seems pretty undeniable to me. Since the idea of a book without an author is ludicrous in the extreme. Then let's take as the minor premise that biological information encoded in the genetic language is a book. Let's call it the book of life. No one disputes this. That biological information is encoded in DNA by the rules of a genetic language. The conclusion is readily apparent. The book of life has an author. This categorical syllogism is valid and it is sound. Therefore its conclusion is necessarily true.tgpeeler
November 23, 2009
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jerry at 65, "Please describe a natural law you can violate with your brain." Please explain the natural laws responsible for the clothes you have on you. Non sequitur. You made the claim that "[Intelligence] does not obey the natural law." It is incumbent upon you to support that assertion or retract it.Mustela Nivalis
November 23, 2009
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"Please describe a natural law you can violate with your brain." Please explain the natural laws responsible for the clothes you have on you.jerry
November 23, 2009
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"Cornelius Hunter, a fellow ID advocate, just showed you one such example in a post made today" We are at one and counting. Till we get to about two or three million examples, it really can't be taken seriously. Actually that is hyperbole, it is really around two or three hundred thousand. PS - That example has been around for almost a year now and is very interesting. Take one down and pass it around, 199,999 more genes to go. (I am sure there are several more but the number required to show an on going process is closer to the 200,000 than one)jerry
November 23, 2009
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jerry at 60, "Without positive evidence for a particular hypothesis (and a clear articulation of that hypothesis), there is no rational reason to consider it." Nonsense. You keep repeating this word. It's quite rude and has no place in polite discourse. Intelligent actions can modify life to a large extent now and most in the biological community believe it will soon be able to create life from scratch. So the capability is not disputed. So we have a known capability for creating and modifying life. What you want is a video tape or a copy of the plans from 3.5 billion years ago. Don’t be absurd. All I'm asking for is a clearly articulated hypothesis and some objective, empirical evidence for non-materialistic behavior or mechanisms. "Even if one were to demonstrate that no known material processes could account for a particular observation, that would not constitute support for non-material explanations. There could well be a currently unknown material explanation, for example." Another stupid comment. Another (extremely) rude comment. One might get the impression that you have so little confidence in your own arguments that you need to bluster instead. "When the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. When the facts aren't on your side, pound on the table." First of all who said non-material You did, up at 16: "The choice is between 100% naturalistic and not 100% naturalistic changes in life forms." and do you consider intelligence non material. As far as is known, intelligence is an emergent phenomena of a complex, physical brain. Destroy the brain and the intelligence is no longer detectable. No non-material supposition required. It does not obey the natural laws. Please describe a natural law you can violate with your brain. If there are only two possibilities and one has been eliminated, then hello, doesn’t that support the other possibility. Your arguments from incredulity do not eliminate the possibility of unknown material mechanisms. In fact, the history of science suggests that the scientific method is very good at identifying the mechanisms responsible for initially unexplained phenomena. Yes, there is always the possibility of some unknown process accounting for life but speculating on some unknown process when all the probable ones have been eliminated does not make it a 100% probability as you and every anti ID person want. Thus far, not all known chemical processes have been eliminated, by a long shot. Abiogenesis is an active area of research. If you want to posit a non-material explanation, you need to provide some hard evidence in favor of it rather than taking potshots at science.Mustela Nivalis
November 23, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis, Nice talk but what is your hypothesis pertaining to blind and undirected processes?Joseph
November 23, 2009
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Jerry, Cornelius Hunter, a fellow ID advocate, just showed you one such example in a post made today. fGfaded_Glory
November 23, 2009
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"Without positive evidence for a particular hypothesis (and a clear articulation of that hypothesis), there is no rational reason to consider it. " Nonsense. Intelligent actions can modify life to a large extent now and most in the biological community believe it will soon be able to create life from scratch. So the capability is not disputed. So we have a known capability for creating and modifying life. What you want is a video tape or a copy of the plans from 3.5 billion years ago. Don't be absurd. "Even if one were to demonstrate that no known material processes could account for a particular observation, that would not constitute support for non-material explanations. There could well be a currently unknown material explanation, for example." Another stupid comment. First of all who said non-material and do you consider intelligence non material. It does not obey the natural laws. If there are only two possibilities and one has been eliminated, then hello, doesn't that support the other possibility. Only in an Alice in Wonderland world would you find people taking the bet that it doesn't. Yes, there is always the possibility of some unknown process accounting for life but speculating on some unknown process when all the probable ones have been eliminated does not make it a 100% probability as you and every anti ID person want. I would assume that the possibility of the alternative gets higher and higher as each alternative possibility is eliminated. Now most of those who challenge ID have an a priori attachment to an ideology that must be adhered to so logic and common sense go out the window. When the anti ID people start making some sense, we will pat attention to them. But arguments such as yours have been tried over and over again and are bogus. So I suggest if you are going to challenge ID, then do so with empirical evidence. Your arguments are non sequiturs.jerry
November 23, 2009
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Faded Glory, No one and I mean no one has ever presented any naturalistic mechanism that has been shown to create novel complex capabilities on any consistent basis. We have had more than one evolutionary biologist and several regular biologist come here. We are talking all the changes from a simple prokaryote cell to human beings so there is a lot of change that went on. We been asking here for over five years that I have observed and nothing yet. People always claim it exists but somehow never seem to be able to tell us what it is. I would think that would tell you something. If you disagree, be our guest and educate us. So cite all you want but until you or someone else can bring up something relevant, then I suggest you remain quiet about people knowing the causes for evolution.jerry
November 23, 2009
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Jerry at 21, “Arguments from incredulity are unconvincing”" Nonsense. Not when the examples pile up and the rationale for the findings are backed up by good science and logic. It doesn't matter how many logical fallacies are piled together, they're still fallacies and therefore unconvincing. “positive evidence for non-natural mechanisms is required.” Again nonsense. Without positive evidence for a particular hypothesis (and a clear articulation of that hypothesis), there is no rational reason to consider it. Even if one were to demonstrate that no known material processes could account for a particular observation, that would not constitute support for non-material explanations. There could well be a currently unknown material explanation, for example. If one wants to posit a non-material explanation, one must provide positive, objective, empirical evidence. I'd be interested in hearing how one could do that, even in principle.Mustela Nivalis
November 23, 2009
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faded_glory, The inference goes like this: 1- We make an observartion. 2- We try to figure out what can account for it. 3- If chance and necessity do not suffuce AND it has some specification only then do we infer design. Now to refute that design inference all YOU have to do is to then demonstrate that either chance and necessity can account for it OR no specification exists. However all you can do is whine. Go figure...Joseph
November 23, 2009
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jerry: 'You continually misstate the ID position which is starting to lead me to think you are not doing it naively.' Come on now, I am not even trying to state the ID position here, so where am I misstating it? Is this just a prelude to the predictable flaming that always seems to happen when someone asks questions that ID-ers are uncomfortable with? Your position seems to be 'natural mechanisms of evolution are lacking, therefore ID'. Here is a paper that provides a nice summary of the natural mechanisms as currently understood, so how can you possibly claim that they don't exist? fGfaded_Glory
November 23, 2009
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and, if you push a different combination of buttons, then you’ll get a completely different form of information, though it still continues to be rich in complexity. But what about the pink elephant in the room?
That's correct. We have a description of how we get different results by pushing a button, but that does not in the least explain all the downstream activities, nor how this particular switch came to control them. Consider an assembly line, where throwing a single switch changes the end product that is produced. Someone might marvel at the ability of the switch to produce macro-evolutionary changes.Mung
November 22, 2009
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Allen MacNeil (6):
Kimura, Ohta, Jukes, and Crow dropped a monkey wrench into that idea, and then Gould and Lewontin finished the job with their famous paper on “the spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian paradigm”.
Interestingly, Allen, this is how I became such a Darwinian critic. I began in 2000 to look for some kind of explanation for macroevolution. I read Kimura's "Neutral Evolution" (which, to use Stanley and Jukes term, is "Non-Darwinian Evolution"), and Lewontin's 1974 book, followed by Hoyle's "Mathematics of Evolution". It was clear then that neo-Darwinism (= Modern Synthesis) was dead.
So, as I have said many times before, when ID supporters set their sights on “neo-Darwinism” as a target for criticism, they set their sights on a model that has been all but abandoned. The carnival has moved on, folks, and ID supporters are fighting battles that evolutionary biologists left behind a half century and more ago
Evo-devo doesn't really solve anything, Allen. Take the origin of just one gene: whence does it come? Some kind of mechanism has to be prescribed. You seem content to just simply say: "That's a problem for those working on abiogenesis. For me, once 'life' began, the mechanisms for variation were there and there must be some laws that dictate how these changes come about, and eventually we'll discover them. In fact, we're well on the road to such discoveries." This is convenient. But it is just simply an effort to completely sidestep the problems we face; namely, how did these complicated mechanisms of interaction arise in biology. Evo-devo appears to be no more than saying that if you push a particular set/combination of buttons on a computer, you'll get rich information as output (the analogy being that Hox-genes represent no more than 'buttons' that 'evolution pushes'), and, if you push a different combination of buttons, then you'll get a completely different form of information, though it still continues to be rich in complexity. But what about the pink elephant in the room? Where did the computer come from in the first place? The Modern Synthesis was supposed to give us this answer, but now its dead and being buried. So what then takes its place? Somehow you are intellectually comfortable in suspending these kinds of questions from critical analysis. This, then, becomes a question of whether or not proper logic is being applied to the raw facts that are, and have been, uncovered---which seems to me to run more along the lines of philosophy than pure biology. Just one more thing, if I may. You also write this:
Creationists have of course moved the goalposts, arguing that “they accepted all along that new species could arise from existing ones, it’s just “microevolution”, which everyone accepts. This despite the fact that speciation has always been considered to be the first (and perhaps most important) stage in macroevolution, and that less than two decades ago creationists were confidently stating that “true” speciation had not only never been observed, it couldn’t ever be observed because it can’t happen.
Now I'm not a creationist---and never have been, if we're talking about the literal interpretation of Genesis. I do believe that God is the author of life, and that life reflects God's creative power. Now many might also see this same creative power at work and choose to interpret it along the lines of what is called 'theistic evolution', your TE above. That's how I used to think. But now having looked around a bunch, I see an emperor without clothes. In your quote, for example, you say that the Grants have 'documented' the generation of a new species. Well, wonderful. But when it comes to Darwinism, that's not the real question. The real question is whether or not this new organism is a "species" or a "variety". That is the central question. Darwin saw "varieties" as "incipient species"; that is, that which, compared to cultivated, broadly-based, known species, was formerly considered to be simply a "variety", was now, in fact, to be considered, per his theory, an "incipient species", destined to "evolve" more and more until it became a full-blown "species" on its own. And not only that---and this is critical because Darwin didn't publish the "Origins" until Wallace wrote his paper describing the "principle of divergence"---this "incipient species" might be on its way in "displacing" the original "parent" species. If we view what the Grant's have done---or may have done (I haven't looked at their work yet, so I'll suspend judgment)---what we really need to know is if this 'new species' is on its way to displacing other species, and eventually being the source of countless new species, which, taken together, will form a 'family' or a 'class'. I surely have my doubts about this because no one has ever seen anything like this ever happen. And if this phenomena of "divergence" cannot be documented, then Darwinism is dead--- an admission you studiously shrink away from. So, Allen, we need much, much more than what the Grants are giving us. Remember the lizards on those Adriatic islands that basically formed a new speices in less than 35 generations? We know about new species being formed. But we've never seen what might be termed "progressive evolution". I await.PaV
November 22, 2009
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Allen MacNeil (43):
Even if it eventually becomes possible to “model” abiogenesis in the laboratory, nothing guarantees that such a “model” process is how abiogenesis actually happened four billion years ago. And, since no record of what must have been a geochemical process remains in rocks dating from that time (indeed, there are no rocks dating from that time), I am fairly confident that this situation will always be the case.
But, Allen, where is the fossil evidence of all the intermediate forms that Darwin hypothesized? I'm not asking just for forms (I'm sure you'll talk about Eohippus, or the putative line leading to modern-day whales--but these are few, and offer not real proof of what descended from what in what order), but a whole lot of intermediate forms. If evolution is 'gradual' as Darwin supposed, then there should be a veritable treasure-chest full of them. You remember he talked aobut this "difficulty on the theory". If we could find these intermediates, the whole discussion would be over. So, on the one hand you want to say that there is no fossil evidence for origins--nor, per your hypothesis, will there ever be--and then, on the other, you simply go your merry way when it comes to the rather severe difficulty the lack of fossil intermediates poses to the theory of evolution in the first place. (And, BTW, invoking hox-genes and such is to me nothing more than begging the question: that is, "How did life evolve? By mutations to Hox-genes. How did Hox-genes come about? Through evolution!) Now, let me ask you a further question. Below the surface of what you're propsoing is the supposition that once organisms are able to replicated themselves that "anything is possible"--evolution can do it all!! Well, we know that bacteria came about, what, over 2 billion years ago at least. And we know that nothing mutates faster than bacteria do. So you have a billion and a half years of bacteria just wildly mutating away, and what do you have??? At the end of this process, you have......bacteria. If evolution/(replication + NS) is so powerful, then what happened? Rather, why didn't anything happen? If this process is so powerful, then how do you explain this grand impotence? Any suggestions?PaV
November 22, 2009
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"On the contrary, with the decrease in importance on natural selection, other equally natural mechanisms are discovered to account for speciation and macroevolution." You continually misstate the ID position which is starting to lead me to think you are not doing it naively. There is nothing that has replaced natural selection. There are no natural processes that explain macro evolution. Allen is misrepresenting what is happening. They found natural selection etc to be wanting. They have not found alternatives that explain anything of consequence. The main still viable alternative is intelligent input and that is anathema to Allen and all the atheists because of its metaphysical implications. They must load the dice so that ID cannot be a possibility and that is not science being practiced but ideological dictums. Intelligence is still the best scientific explanation for what has been observed. Till they come up with something, it will remain so and no amount of fog that is spread by those who oppose ID will change that. Faded Glory, the anti ID people here are intellectually bankrupt. When they can back up something they say with science, we will listen to them.jerry
November 22, 2009
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Koonin's paper, and also Allen McNeill in this blog, nicely explain how the old concept of Darwinism has had its day, and insofar as ID argues against that it appears to be correct. What the OP does not do, though, is invoke any need for Intelligent Design as an alternative explanation. On the contrary, with the decrease in importance on natural selection, other equally natural mechanisms are discovered to account for speciation and macroevolution. To me it seems that just like quantum physics replaced Newtonian physics without the need to invoke ID, modern evolutionary biology has replaced Darwinism without the need for ID. As so many keep saying, for ID to make an impact it has to focus on researching ID, not on arguing against other theories. ID could be correct about a thousand things it argues against, but unless it demonstrates that is correct about ID it still counts for nothing. fGfaded_Glory
November 22, 2009
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Allen:
It’s a new world out there, where design and purpose are steadily being overwhelmed by chaos and disintegration.
Me: Where is the evidence for this “chaos and disintegration” which Allen asserts is so prevalent in biology? Allen:
In the genome; have you read Dr. Koonin’s abstract (or, even better, his review paper)? It’s all there.
Actually, what Allen had written earlier is the following:
Indeed, rather than producing the exquisitely perfect adaptations of living organisms, it is becoming clear that natural selection may be important only as that process that prevents the accelerating disintegration of the genome in the face of increasing chaos. In other words, evolution isn’t a steady climb toward greater and greater complexity nor a process designed to produce perfection. here
Now I'd really like to know how he gets from one to the other. Yes, I've read the abstract. I fail to see how it makes your point.
It’s a new world out there, where design and purpose are steadily being overwhelmed by chaos and disintegration.
I'll read the entire paper soon. So all this chaos and disintegration is going on in the genome, and it's somehow steadily overwhelming design and purpose. How? What is the effect of this chaos and disintegration in the genome on the purposeful functions of the cell?Mung
November 22, 2009
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Isn’t it somewhat disconcerting to find your most cherished prejudices undermined by the facts?
Nope. I never let the facts get in the way of my prejudices. :)Mung
November 21, 2009
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"Also, the empirical observation that over 99.9% of all of the species of living organisms that have ever existed (defined morphologically) are now extinct (see the books of David Raup for corroboration). If ID is about every increasing degrees of perfection, it’s doing a really lousy job" Allen, do you believe this 99.9%. Oh, I am sure you can give some reason to back it up other than Raup's books. Given that any little variation seems to be classified as a species, over a million animal species currently on the planet, this would mean there has been approximately 1 billion animal species in the history of the planet. Of course this would not be true if the 99.9% did not apply to animals but only to such things as bacteria. Are you pointing to all the extinct bacteria species as bad design? Wikipedia says that there is currently 16,000 species of mushrooms. Does the 99.9% mean there has been 16 million mushroom species in the history of the planet. And all this indicates a lousy job for ID. You wonder why we do not take you serious some times when you spout these irrelevancies. There are supposedly 5400 mammal species on the planet, how many were there in total and how do we know that and how many were fossilized? And were they really separate species or just variations just as all the Galapagos finches are really one species and cows and bisons are one species but often are classified as several different species. If someone here had spouted that 99.9% you would have taken them apart for their ignorance.jerry
November 21, 2009
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Allen,
Also, the empirical observation that over 99.9% of all of the species of living organisms that have ever existed (defined morphologically) are now extinct (see the books of David Raup for corroboration). If ID is about every increasing degrees of perfection, it’s doing a really lousy job…
Why are you conflating perfection and survival? Is it because the Darwinian mindset demands it? That Darwinian idealism shouldn't have any purchase as a mental framework when considering whether or not design is present.Clive Hayden
November 21, 2009
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Allen,
Interesting: in comment #24, Clive Hayden wrote: “…ID in biology deals with abiogenesis, which has nothing to do with adaptation, cellular machinery, motor neurons etc….” while in comment #37 Mung wrote: “…the cell exhibits “exquisite” and “ingenious” design.” Hmm, looks like somebody didn’t get the memo. Which is it: • ID is not about the “exquisite and ingenious design of the cell” or • ID is about the “exquisite and ingenious design of the cell”? Somebody’s confused, here, and they’re confusing the rest of us.
Mung and I said the same thing. It's confusing to me why you're confused.
So, if I had to choose, I would choose Clive’s characterization about what ID is about: it’s not about biological evolution at all, it’s about how biology got started (i.e. abiogenesis), which is not part of the theory of biological evolution.
I was saying that ID is not solely a matter of adaptation, like your straw man was dressed up to show.Clive Hayden
November 21, 2009
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Also, the empirical observation that over 99.9% of all of the species of living organisms that have ever existed (defined morphologically) are now extinct (see the books of David Raup for corroboration). If ID is about every increasing degrees of perfection, it's doing a really lousy job...Allen_MacNeill
November 21, 2009
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