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Why materialist neuroscience must necessarily remain a pseudo-discipline

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At MercatorNet today:

all that fMRI ((brain imaging) really does is show which brain areas have high oxygen levels when a person is thinking something. It simply cannot tell us what people are thinking, because many brain centres are active and those that are active may be activated for many reasons. Each brain is unique so data from studies must be averaged. But thoughts are not averaged; they belong to the individual.

Then, when you are done with that you run smack dab into the hard problem of qualia.

Qualia? As Mario Beauregard and I (Denyse O’Leary) wrote in The Spiritual Brain,

There are good reasons for thinking that the evidence for materialism will actually never arrive. For example, there is the problem of qualia. Qualia (singular, quale) are how things appear to us individually—the experiential aspects of our mental lives that can be accessed through introspection. Every person is unique, so complete understanding of another person’s consciousness is not likely possible in principle, as we saw in Chapter Four. Rather, when we communicate, we rely on general agreement on an overlapping range of meaning. For example, historian Amy Butler Greenfield has written a three-hundred-page book about one primary color, A Perfect Red.

As “the color of desire,” red is a quale if ever there was one. Reviewer Diane Ackerman notes:

Anger us, and we see red. An unfaithful woman is branded with a scarlet letter. In red-light districts, people buy carnal pleasures. We like to celebrate red-letter days and roll out the red carpet, while trying to avoid red tape, red herrings and going into the red. Indeed, fashion houses rise and fall on the subtleties of shades of red. Yet, however “red” affects us individually, we agree communally to use the word for a range of meanings and connotations, not merely a range in the color spectrum. (pp. 104–5)

Sometimes, the signals can be completely opposite and we still converge on a common meaning! In the United States, red connotes “conservative” in politics; in Canada, it connotes “liberal.”

Scan that, genius. Your first task will be to sort out the people who are exclusively Canadian in culture from those who are exclusively American in culture, and good luck with it. You picked it up; you own it.

Materialist neuroscience has a hard time with qualia because they are not easily reducible to a simple, nonconscious explanation. In The Astonishing Hypothesis, Francis Crick grumbles:

It is certainly possible that there may be aspects of consciousness, such as qualia, that science will not be able to explain. We have learned to live with such limitations in the past (e.g., limitations of quantum mechanics) and we may have to live with them again.

Crick was a real scientist, honest enough to admit that. Don’t expect quacks, cranks, and hustlers to notice, or want to. They take refuge in pseudo-disciplines, claiming that, as a book review in The Scientist put it,

“‘Brains are hot,’ Sally Satel and Scott O. Lilienfeld acknowledge in Brainwashed, their ‘exposé of mindless neuroscience’ (mostly practiced not by neuroscientists, they stress, but by ‘neuropundits,’ among others). The ‘mediagenic’ technology of fMRI imaging has made the brain, aglow with metabolic hotspots, into a rainbow emblem of the faith that science will soon empower us to explain, control, expose, exploit, or excuse every wayward human behavior from buying to lying, from craving to crime.”

This is not so much an unsolved problem as an unsolvable one, at least in the terms in which the materialist wants it solved.

Comments
If the soul is the seat of knowledge, belief, memory, choice, etc., then why does Alzheimer’s disease impair these functions?
For the SAME reason a hardware malfunction impairs the software. Duh.Joe
June 25, 2013
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keiths:
Software can’t run without hardware. Do you think the soul stops functioning when the body dies?
No, but the body won't be communicating with anyone. And software doesn't cease to exist just because there isn't any hardware.
If the soul does the thinking and calls the shots, how can splitting the brain prevent it from continuing to do so?
The hardware malfunction prevents it. Also who says the sould does all the thinking and calls all of the shots? Reference please.
Are you really claiming that the soul no longer has control of the body after the corpus callosum is cut?
Who says the soul has control over the body? The soul gives the body life, but I don't know about controlling it.
Do you think the soul is no longer capable of speaking, and the body is talking on “automatic”?
Do you have any references for the stuff you spew?Joe
June 25, 2013
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OT: Today on the Michael Medved Show, Jay Richards Will Discuss Eric Hedin, Guillermo Gonzalez Academic Persecution Cases - See more at: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/06/today_on_the_mi_3073751.html#sthash.EgBeKlcz.dpufbornagain77
June 25, 2013
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kieths, I don't go to TMZ since I consider the administrator of that blog as one of the most intellectually dishonest people I have ever met in my life., and thus consider posters who post there and video(s) listed there as extremely suspect.,, But 'coincidentally' other Theists, who have much more patience and care than I do with dogmatic atheists and their consistently deceptive tactics, have recently taken the time to go through the video in question and dissect it. Brain split between atheism and theism Published: 15 June 2013 (GMT+10) http://creation.com/atheism-theism-brain-splitbornagain77
June 25, 2013
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Keiths "Here are some more questions: What do you think about the patient whose right hemisphere believes in God and whose left hemisphere is an atheist?" That's easy, the right hemisphere is correct! :) I think you and Bornagain discussed pretty much all that could be about this topic. Like Bornagain said, the patient as a person is intact. For example, if split brain patient's name was Richard Dawkins....wait that would be a good example for half brain patient :) Anyway, if split brain patient's name was John Smith and we ask him: "John, do you feel as one person?" I think he would answer "Yes.". The self aware consciousness or mind or thought controller is still John Smith, not two persons. I understand experiments with patients show peculiar new behavior but that would be expected. Brain hemispheres were once connected and person developed like that from childhood. Cutting connections between two cooperating processors is quite an event. If anything, it’s amazing how it all still works after something severe as that. "Alzheimer’s patients can end up forgetting who they are, who they’re married to, what their children look like, etc. If the soul is the seat of memory, why do they forget these things?" In this reality we depend on all our material components working correctly. Unfortunately components eventually fail, we suffer and die. Does the self aware consciousness or mind or thought controller disappear when person dies? There are strong clues it doesn’t, just read the links on near death experience above. Also, ask yourself these questions re. the brain as one of our main parts/components: Are neurons or axons or synapses or electro chemical potentials or patterns of electro chemical potentials conscious/aware of themselves? What or who is conscious/aware of itself? If we have materialistic answer maybe you are right.Eugen
June 25, 2013
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bornagain,
For instance the only one I’m really interested in, which you did not even provide a specific reference for (unprofessional on your part for I certainly do not trust anything atheists say without reference), is the atheist-theist one you mentioned.
Geez, BA, didn't you even follow the link I gave to my TSZ post? See my first comment in this thread. The Ramachandran video includes the description of the patient with one theist hemisphere and one atheist hemisphere. Make sure you watch the other two videos as well. The links are in the middle of the OP at TSZ. Unprofessional, indeed.keiths
June 25, 2013
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keiths, as is typical of atheists, you are just explaining away evidence you don't like. Regardless of your excuse making, having a 'whole person', personality wise, come out unscathed after a hemispherectomy is simply devastating to your a-priori materialistic position, period, especially considering that physical impairment followed an overall predicted pattern whilst the base personality of the person did not! For crying out loud this fact directly answers your questions and presents you with a conumdrum you can't honestly answer save to wave your hands as you just did!!! ,,,, You claim amnesia presents a problem for a theists,,, REALLY? Have you not ever heard of the complete life review in Near Death Experiences where every minute detail of the persons life is reviewed, in panoramic fashion, in the presence of God?,,, Not mention I referenced people who were blind from birth who could see for the first time,, you seem to give far more power to the soul over severe 'hardware malfunctions' of the body/brain in this lifetime than is warranted. You seem to be far more impressed with your questions than I am. For instance the only one I'm really interested in, which you did not even provide a specific reference for (unprofessional on your part for I certainly do not trust anything atheists say without reference), is the atheist-theist one you mentioned. Now this is curious, was this guy a split personality like Cybil or something like that or was he just one person who flipped between opinions on his belief about God? Either way the question and answer will be interesting and I look forward to you providing a solid reference so that I can look his case history over a bit more carefully, but I certainly don't foresee this case turning over all the evidence I have presented to you from quantum mechanics. Basically keiths, as far as hard core science is concerned, you have no foundation within science anymore! Or as Rutherford said: Physics is the only real science, everything else is stamp collecting! :)bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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bornagain, Hemispherectomy is almost always done on children, because their brains are plastic enough to recover function after the operation. If there is a soul, then why should it make a difference? Shouldn't hemispherectomies work just as well on adults as on children? Likewise, if the cerebral hemispheres aren't important, than why do cerebral strokes damage important functions? And one of the most glaringly obvious questions for the dualist: If the soul is the seat of knowledge, belief, memory, choice, etc., then why does Alzheimer's disease impair these functions? Alzheimer's patients can end up forgetting who they are, who they're married to, what their children look like, etc. If the soul is the seat of memory, why do they forget these things? On the other hand, if the soul is not the seat of memory, but the brain is (and this is obviously true), then we forget everything the moment our brain dies. Are you comfortable with the idea that all souls have amnesia? I also notice that you still haven't answered my questions. Why? If you are as confident in your position as you claim to be, they should be a piece of cake. Here are some more questions: What do you think about the patient whose right hemisphere believes in God and whose left hemisphere is an atheist? Is that person's soul a theist or an atheist? How can you tell? Does only one hemisphere have a soul? If so, where does the hemisphere without a soul get its knowledge, beliefs, etc.? These are very difficult questions for someone in your position. I understand why they make you uncomfortable, and why you'd rather not answer them. Couldn't you just be honest and admit that?keiths
June 24, 2013
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5for, whatever,,, I'm comfortable with the evidence I have presented thus far for my position since I have, in fact, refuted his position all the way down to the foundation of reality itself, have presented evidence from physics for the reality of the souls and have severely compromised his cherry picked evidence. All in all not a bad day.bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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BA, you can run, but you can't hide from the onlookers..5for
June 24, 2013
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keiths, Are you being purposely obtuse? I know that is a redundant question to ask an atheist, but anyways get real! Hemisopherectomies, regardless of your willed blindness, directly answer your question in that brain malfunction in one hemisphere is shown to have a dramatic negative effect on a whole person, who is certainly not 'willing' the seizures to happen. Moreover the result of hemispherectomy operation is that the 'whole person' comes out unscathed once the malfunctioning 'hardware', to use Joe's term, is removed. This explains your split brain anomaly and presents you, as a atheistic materialist, with the inexplicable conundrum as to why the 'whole person' is unscathed in such radical surgery removing half the brain. THAT IS NOT A MINOR POINT KEITHS!! If you were not so wedded to your dogmatic atheistic view of reality perhaps you could see this. i.e. The evidence you place so much faith in, or is that 'lack of faith' in, is pathetically weak when viewed objectively and all facts are brought in to be weighed instead of just cherry picked as you wish to do! Moreover Why do you place so much weight on this cherry picked evidence and refuse to address the fact that quantum mechanics has falsified your materialistic/atheistic worldview by '70 standard deviations' and '80 orders of magnitude' respectfully? i.e. Why is not the fact that our best science about how we interact with reality at the most foundational level completely falsifies atheism/materialism by such staggering degree not important to you? i.e. your bias is showing dude!bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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Joe:
Software can run improperly given malfunctioning hardware...I think even a good soul cannot repair a malfunctioning brain.
You didn't answer my question:
Software can’t run without hardware. Do you think the soul stops functioning when the body dies? If so, most of your dualist friends won’t like that idea.
keiths:
If the soul knows something, why can’t it just say so?
Joe:
It’s being repressed or misrepresented by a malfunctioning person.
If the soul does the thinking and calls the shots, how can splitting the brain prevent it from continuing to do so? Are you really claiming that the soul no longer has control of the body after the corpus callosum is cut? Do you think the soul is no longer capable of speaking, and the body is talking on "automatic"?keiths
June 24, 2013
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bornagain, Somehow I'm not surprised that you won't answer my questions. Instead, you keep mentioning hemispherectomies and quantum mechanics. But the hemispherectomy evidence doesn't explain the split-brain cases, and neither does quantum mechanics. Why do you keep mentioning them when they don't help you explain the split-brain observations? Also, why do the following questions frighten you? You have an opportunity to answer them decisively and make the strongest possible case for the existence of an immaterial soul. Why pass up this great opportunity? Here are the questions again:
One hemisphere can believe, know, think and choose things that the other does not. Here are some questions that I hope you will have the courage to answer: 1. How is that possible if there is a single soul that does all the believing, knowing, thinking, and choosing? If the soul ties the hemispheres together, they should believe, know, think and choose the same things. They don’t. One hemisphere can even be a theist while the other is an atheist! How do you explain that? 2. Is there one soul before the operation, and two afterwards? If so, why does cutting the corpus callosum cut the soul in two? Why should an immaterial soul be affected by a physical operation? 3. Do you agree that the evidence shows that each hemisphere does its own knowing, believing, thinking and choosing? If not, why not? What alternate explanation can you offer for the observations concerning split-brain patients?
keiths
June 24, 2013
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keiths,
Software can’t run without hardware. Do you think the soul stops functioning when the body dies?
that's pretty simplistic in your thinking kieths especially considering that I showed you 'conserved' transcendent component to life already (i.e. quantum entanglement on a massive scale within your body). i.e your philosophical bias is showing!,,, Why don't you put the anything close to the same standards on Darwinian evidence as you do to research for souls keiths?
Near-Death Experiences: Putting a Darwinist's Evidentiary Standards to the Test - Dr. Michael Egnor - October 15, 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, about 20 percent of NDE's are corroborated, which means that there are independent ways of checking about the veracity of the experience. The patients knew of things that they could not have known except by extraordinary perception -- such as describing details of surgery that they watched while their heart was stopped, etc. Additionally, many NDE's have a vividness and a sense of intense reality that one does not generally encounter in dreams or hallucinations.,,, The most "parsimonious" explanation -- the simplest scientific explanation -- is that the (Near Death) experience was real. Tens of millions of people have had such experiences. That is tens of millions of more times than we have observed the origin of species (or origin of life, or origin of a protein), which is never.,,, The materialist reaction, in short, is unscientific and close-minded. NDE's show fellows like Coyne at their sneering unscientific irrational worst. Somebody finds a crushed fragment of a fossil and it's earth-shaking evidence. Tens of million of people have life-changing spiritual experiences and it's all a big yawn. Note: Dr. Egnor is professor and vice-chairman of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/10/near_death_expe_1065301.html "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield. Michaela's Amazing NEAR death experience - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLEmETQdMkg&feature=player_detailpage#t=629s
One can see that severe bias of atheists being played out in the following research where the atheistic researchers, who set out to prove Near Death Experiences illusory, were unable to accept the conclusion of what there own 'unexpected' evidence was telling them
Memories of Near Death Experiences (NDEs): More Real Than Reality? - Mar. 27, 2013 Excerpt: University of Liège researchers have demonstrated that the physiological mechanisms triggered during NDE lead to a more vivid perception not only of imagined events in the history of an individual but also of real events which have taken place in their lives!,,, ,,,researchers,, have looked into the memories of NDE with the hypothesis that if the memories of NDE were pure products of the imagination, their phenomenological characteristics (e.g., sensorial, self referential, emotional, etc. details) should be closer to those of imagined memories. Conversely, if the NDE are experienced in a way similar to that of reality, their characteristics would be closer to the memories of real events. The researchers compared the responses provided by three groups of patients, each of which had survived (in a different manner) a coma, and a group of healthy volunteers. They studied the memories of NDE and the memories of real events and imagined events with the help of a questionnaire which evaluated the phenomenological characteristics of the memories. The results were surprising. From the perspective being studied, not only were the NDEs not similar to the memories of imagined events, but the phenomenological characteristics inherent to the memories of real events (e.g. memories of sensorial details) are even more numerous in the memories of NDE than in the memories of real events. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130327190359.htm A Doctor's Near Death Experience Inspires a New Life - video Quote: "It's not like a dream. It's like the world we are living in is a dream and it's kind of like waking up from that." Dr. Magrisso http://www.nbcchicago.com/on-air/as-seen-on/A-Doctor--186331791.html
Of related note: One of the more fascinating branches of Near Death Studies have been the studies of people who were born blind who have had NDE’s, who could see for the first time in their life during their NDE. This simply has no explanation within the materialistic framework, whereas, in the theistic framework, this is expected:
Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Ring/Ring-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1997-16-101-147-1.pdf
Nice consistent finding for a soul, which is exactly what one should like in his evidence if he were being objective in his research! Of note keiths, perhaps you can write this Harvard neurosurgeon with your, ahem, devastating split brain evidence so as to stop him from encouraging millions of people about life after death
A neurosurgeon confronts the non-material nature of consciousness - December 2011 Excerpted quote: To me one thing that has emerged from my experience and from very rigorous analysis of that experience over several years, talking it over with others that I respect in neuroscience, and really trying to come up with an answer, is that consciousness outside of the brain is a fact. It’s an established fact. And of course, that was a hard place for me to get, coming from being a card-toting reductive materialist over decades. It was very difficult to get to knowing that consciousness, that there’s a soul of us that is not dependent on the brain. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/he-said-it-a-neurosurgeon-confronts-the-non-material-nature-of-consciousness/ The Easter Question - Eben Alexander, M.D. - March 2013 Excerpt: More than ever since my near death experience, I consider myself a Christian -,,, Now, I can tell you that if someone had asked me, in the days before my NDE, what I thought of this (Easter) story, I would have said that it was lovely. But it remained just that -- a story. To say that the physical body of a man who had been brutally tortured and killed could simply get up and return to the world a few days later is to contradict every fact we know about the universe. It wasn't simply an unscientific idea. It was a downright anti-scientific one. But it is an idea that I now believe. Not in a lip-service way. Not in a dress-up-it's-Easter kind of way. I believe it with all my heart, and all my soul.,, We are, really and truly, made in God's image. But most of the time we are sadly unaware of this fact. We are unconscious both of our intimate kinship with God, and of His constant presence with us. On the level of our everyday consciousness, this is a world of separation -- one where people and objects move about, occasionally interacting with each other, but where essentially we are always alone. But this cold dead world of separate objects is an illusion. It's not the world we actually live in.,,, ,,He (God) is right here with each of us right now, seeing what we see, suffering what we suffer... and hoping desperately that we will keep our hope and faith in Him. Because that hope and faith will be triumphant. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eben-alexander-md/the-easter-question_b_2979741.html
etc..bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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Software can’t run without hardware.
Software can run improperly given malfunctioning hardware.
Do you think the soul stops functioning when the body dies?
I think even a good soul cannot repair a malfunctioning brain.
If the soul knows something, why can’t it just say so?
It's being repressed or misrepresented by a malfunctioning person.Joe
June 24, 2013
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keiths:
Why should an immaterial soul be affected by a physical operation?
Joe:
For the same reason that immaterial software is affected by the material hardware.
Software can't run without hardware. Do you think the soul stops functioning when the body dies? If so, most of your dualist friends won't like that idea.keiths
June 24, 2013
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Joe, That makes no sense. Split-brain patients can talk. If the soul knows something, why can't it just say so? The obvious answer: there is no soul. When you cut the connection between the hemispheres, the communication channel is gone. There is no soul to bridge the gap.keiths
June 24, 2013
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LoL!@keiths:
If there were a single, immaterial mind, it would know what both hemispheres know.
It might, however given the hardware issue, it may not be able to do anything about it.
Why should an immaterial soul be affected by a physical operation?
For the same reason that immaterial software is affected by the material hardware.Joe
June 24, 2013
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keiths I am certainly not afraid of your evidence seeing as number, I presented countervailing evidence (hemispherectomies) that explains the nuances and provides an additional conundrum you can't explain, and number 2, I presented evidence from quantum mechanics that has completely blown your materialistic presuppositions clean out of the water. THOSE ARE NOT MINOR POINTS!!! You atheists are really something, you guys completely ignore little facts like being falsified by our best science or that you can't even explain the origination of a single neuron by purely material processes much less a whole brain by purely material processes and then when you guys think you got some minor quirk in the brain that can't be explained by theism, or perhaps an inverted retina which was 'poorly designed', or etc.. you guys jump all over it as if you are being sincere in your science, all the while ignoring the fact you have no foundation in science in the first place. Perhaps you should ask yourself, why are you being so dishonest as to how the evidence actually sits? Why are you letting you atheism dictate what evidence you consider important? etc..bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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bornagain, You seem to be afraid to answer the questions I posed. Why is that? I also see that you've been Googling "corpus callosum", desperately searching for something -- anything -- to quote. The Caltech study doesn't help your case. All it shows is that alternate communication pathways develop in people who are born without a corpus callosum. You need to explain the opposite situation. In an adult whose corpus callosum is cut, the hemispheres lose communication. One hemisphere can believe, know, think and choose things that the other does not. Here are some questions that I hope you will have the courage to answer: 1. How is that possible if there is a single soul that does all the believing, knowing, thinking, and choosing? If the soul ties the hemispheres together, they should believe, know, think and choose the same things. They don't. One hemisphere can even be a theist while the other is an atheist! How do you explain that? 2. Is there one soul before the operation, and two afterwards? If so, why does cutting the corpus callosum cut the soul in two? Why should an immaterial soul be affected by a physical operation? 3. Do you agree that the evidence shows that each hemisphere does its own knowing, believing, thinking and choosing? If not, why not? What alternate explanation can you offer for the observations concerning split-brain patients? (A commenter named Steve suggested at TSZ, in all apparent seriousness, that aplit-brain patients were an example of spirit possession. I hope you can do better than that.)keiths
June 24, 2013
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keiths, I did respond. You did'nt like my responce and you are purposely ducking the quantum evidence which directly falsifies you!,,, Moreover,,, Bridging the Gap - October 2011 Excerpt: Like a bridge that spans a river to connect two major metropolises, the corpus callosum is the main conduit for information flowing between the left and right hemispheres of our brains. Now, neuroscientists at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) have found that people who are born without that link—a condition called agenesis of the corpus callosum, or AgCC—still show remarkably normal communication across the gap between the two halves of their brains. http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/13465 now how is that possible if your hypothesis is rigidly true? keiths, you got to many holes in your theory!bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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bornagain, Your explanation doesn't make sense. It would help if you would answer the specific questions I posed. Please answer the questions -- each one -- and then I will respond.keiths
June 24, 2013
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I hold certain information patterns to be imprinted on the brain, and when communication is impaired between the two halfs then conflicting signals of information will arise towards the mind.,,, In fact the hemispherectomy evidence I cited shows an entire half of the brain being removed so as to eliminate the conflicting (undesirable) signals that were arising from one half of the brain, and yet, this is directly contradictory to your 'only brain' hypothesis, in that the patients were not 'less than' the person then they were before save for some physical impairment. i.e. Argument from divisibility: Case for the Existence of the Soul - (Argument from Divisibility) - JP Moreland PhD - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SJ4_ZC0xpM&feature=player_detailpage#t=2304s All in all you evidence is very weak when all things are considered and countervailing evidence is allowed to weigh in! Moreover, the quantum mechanical evidence I cited completely bypasses all this and goes directly to the heart of the matter and falsifies your materialistic worldview directly. ,,, Now when you can show me something, anything, with '70 standard deviations' certainty for materialism, perhaps you will have a leg to stand on, but as it is now, you merely have some interesting anecdotal evidence that does nothing as to addressing the far larger problems, scientifically, that you have looming over your position!bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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bornagain, How about responding directly, in your own words, to this part of my comment to Eugen:
The evidence shows that one hemisphere can know things the other hemisphere doesn’t know. One hemisphere can believe things the other hemisphere doesn’t believe (in Ramachandran’s amazing example, one hemisphere was theist and the other was atheist). One hemisphere can try to do things, and the other hemisphere can try to stop it (e.g. the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other). How does a believer in the soul explain that? Does the soul split in two when the corpus callosum is cut? If so, why? And if the soul remains “in one piece”, then why does one hemisphere know, believe, desire, and do things that the other hemisphere does not? If you admit that each of the hemispheres does its own knowing, believing, desiring, etc., then you are admitting that the soul does not do these things — the brain does. It’s a tremendous problem for the dualist.
How do you -- bornagain77 -- answer those questions?keiths
June 24, 2013
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Now keiths, I certainly don't think your split brain evidence is nearly as strong as you think it is as to falsifying the mind, especially concerning the fact that you got the hemispherectomy evidence I cited directly contradicting your hypothesis, in fact, considering nuances revealed in hemispherectomies, I would hold it explains it much better than your hypothesis of 'only brain' does. Moreover, you got direct falsification from quantum mechanics to deal with! Or do you like most Darwinists, ignore all crushing evidence against your position and only concentrate where you can hide in the shadows of complexity???bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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It turns out, besides DNA, that quantum entanglement/information has been confirmed to be deeply embedded in protein structures as well;
Coherent Intrachain energy migration at room temperature - Elisabetta Collini and Gregory Scholes - University of Toronto - Science, 323, (2009), pp. 369-73 Excerpt: The authors conducted an experiment to observe quantum coherence dynamics in relation to energy transfer. The experiment, conducted at room temperature, examined chain conformations, such as those found in the proteins of living cells. Neighbouring molecules along the backbone of a protein chain were seen to have coherent energy transfer. Where this happens quantum decoherence (the underlying tendency to loss of coherence due to interaction with the environment) is able to be resisted, and the evolution of the system remains entangled as a single quantum state. http://www.scimednet.org/quantum-coherence-living-cells-and-protein/ Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/
Moreover, These following studies indicate that quantum information cannot be destroyed (i.e. quantum information is found to be 'conserved')
Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Quantum no-deleting theorem Excerpt: A stronger version of the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem provide permanence to quantum information. To create a copy one must import the information from some part of the universe and to delete a state one needs to export it to another part of the universe where it will continue to exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_no-deleting_theorem#Consequence
related note:
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings - Steve Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings
clear implications of all this?
Does Quantum Biology Support A Quantum Soul? – Stuart Hameroff - video (notes in description) http://vimeo.com/29895068 Quantum Entangled Consciousness (Permanence of Quantum Information)- Life After Death - Stuart Hameroff - video https://vimeo.com/39982578
And if the '70 standard deviations' establishment of quantum entanglement is not strong enough for some:
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality - Apr 20, 2007 Excerpt: Markus Aspelmeyer, Anton Zeilinger and colleagues from the University of Vienna, however, have now shown that realism is more of a problem than locality in the quantum world. They devised an experiment that violates a different inequality proposed by physicist Anthony Leggett in 2003 that relies only on realism, and relaxes the reliance on locality. To do this, rather than taking measurements along just one plane of polarization, the Austrian team took measurements in additional, perpendicular planes to check for elliptical polarization. They found that, just as in the realizations of Bell's thought experiment, Leggett's inequality is violated – thus stressing the quantum-mechanical assertion that reality does not exist when we're not observing it. "Our study shows that 'just' giving up the concept of locality would not be enough to obtain a more complete description of quantum mechanics," Aspelmeyer told Physics Web. "You would also have to give up certain intuitive features of realism." A team of physicists in Vienna has devised experiments that may answer one of the enduring riddles of science: Do we create the world just by looking at it? - 2008 Excerpt: Leggett’s theory was more powerful than Bell’s because it required that light’s polarization be measured not just like the second hand on a clock face, but over an entire sphere. In essence, there were an infinite number of clock faces on which the second hand could point. For the experimenters this meant that they had to account for an infinite number of possible measurement settings. So Zeilinger’s group rederived Leggett’s theory for a finite number of measurements. There were certain directions the polarization would more likely face in quantum mechanics. This test was more stringent. In mid-2007 Fedrizzi found that the new realism model was violated by 80 orders of magnitude; the group was even more assured that quantum mechanics was correct. http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P3/
The clear implication is noted here:
“I’m going to talk about the Bell inequality, and more importantly a new inequality that you might not have heard of called the Leggett inequality, that was recently measured. It was actually formulated almost 30 years ago by Professor Leggett, who is a Nobel Prize winner, but it wasn’t tested until about a year and a half ago (in 2007), when an article appeared in Nature, that the measurement was made by this prominent quantum group in Vienna led by Anton Zeilinger, which they measured the Leggett inequality, which actually goes a step deeper than the Bell inequality and rules out any possible interpretation other than consciousness creates reality when the measurement is made.” – Bernard Haisch, Ph.D., Calphysics Institute, is an astrophysicist and author of over 130 scientific publications. - quote taken from "Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness - A New Measurement" video lecture
Verse and music:
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Creed - My Sacrifice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-fyNgHdmLI
bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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To make the case for a transcendent soul, let's look at quantum entanglement first: Here is a clip of a talk in which Alain Aspect, along with a bit of the history of the debate between Einstein and Bohr, talks about the failure of ‘local realism’, or the failure of reductive materialism, to explain quantum entanglement with 'hidden variables':
The Failure Of Local Realism – Reductive Materialism – Alain Aspect – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145
The falsification for local realism (reductive materialism) as to trying to explain quantum entanglement, was recently greatly strengthened:
Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism – November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html Quantum Measurements: Common Sense Is Not Enough, Physicists Show – July 2009 Excerpt: scientists have now proven comprehensively in an experiment for the first time that the experimentally observed phenomena cannot be described by non-contextual models with hidden variables. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090722142824.htm Closing the last Bell-test loophole for photons - Jun 11, 2013 Excerpt: In the years since, many "Bell tests" have been performed, but critics have identified several conditions (known as loopholes) in which the results could be considered inconclusive. For entangled photons, there have been three major loopholes; two were closed by previous experiments. The remaining problem, known as the "detection-efficiency/fair sampling loophole," results from the fact that, until now, the detectors employed in experiments have captured an insufficiently large fraction of the photons, and the photon sources have been insufficiently efficient. The validity of such experiments is thus dependent on the assumption that the detected photons are a statistically fair sample of all the photons. That, in turn, leaves open the possibility that, if all the photon data were known, they could be described by local realism. The new research, conducted at the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Communication in Austria, closes the fair-sampling loophole by using improved photon sources (spontaneous parametric down-conversion in a Sagnac configuration) and ultra-sensitive detectors provided by the Single Photonics and Quantum Information project in PML's Quantum Electronics and Photonics Division. That combination, the researchers write, was "crucial for achieving a sufficiently high collection efficiency," resulting in a high-accuracy data set – requiring no assumptions or correction of count rates – that confirmed quantum entanglement to nearly 70 standard deviations.,,, http://phys.org/news/2013-06-bell-test-loophole-photons.html
The following recent article by Sal gives us a small glimpse as to what it truly means for non-local entanglement to be confirmed to an order of '70 standard deviations':
SSDD: a 22 sigma event is consistent with the physics of fair coins? - June 23, 2013 Excerpt: So 500 coins heads is (500-250)/11 = 22 standard deviations (22 sigma) from expectation! These numbers are so extreme, it’s probably inappropriate to even use the normal distribution’s approximation of the binomial distribution, and hence “22 sigma” just becomes a figure of speech in this extreme case… https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/ssdd-a-22-sigma-event-is-consistent-with-the-physics-of-fair-coins/
The following study added to the falsification of local realism from another angle:
Looking Beyond Space and Time to Cope With Quantum Theory – (Oct. 28, 2012) Excerpt: To derive their inequality, which sets up a measurement of entanglement between four particles, the researchers considered what behaviours are possible for four particles that are connected by influences that stay hidden and that travel at some arbitrary finite speed. Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions. Outside the boundary, either the influences can’t stay hidden, or they must have infinite speed.,,, The remaining option is to accept that (quantum) influences must be infinitely fast,,, “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” says Nicolas Gisin, Professor at the University of Geneva, Switzerland,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121028142217.htm
Where this 'outside space and time' quantum entanglement gains traction as to establishing a transcendent soul for each man is here. Quantum entanglement/information has now been found in molecular biology on a massive scale:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA - Elisabeth Rieper - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Quantum entanglement between the electron clouds of nucleic acids in DNA - Elisabeth Rieper, Janet Anders and Vlatko Vedral - February 2011 http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1006/1006.4053v2.pdf
bornagain77
June 24, 2013
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It's not, however, a problem for the material soul :) In my model, we are all partly shared souls, and the more we understand each other (literally "see from another's point of view" or "feel another's pain") the more shared we are. As a nice converse of the split-brain patients, there are twins who are so alike they are not fully separate - they complete each other's sentences, and move in almost perfect unison. I'd say those two souls are nearly one. In the split-brain patient, one soul is nearly two. But there are other ways for the two brain halves to communicate than via the corpus collosum - there are other physiological connections too, and the language-speaking "half" can literally tell the other half things. This is one form of therapy. So just as two people who are close can almost become one, it's possible that a nearly-two-souled person can move towards becoming one. But I'm not talking about an immaterial soul (though I guess you could adapt my "solution" :)). I'm talking about the perfectly straightforward, if wonderful, processes by which we understand one another's minds, as well as our own. Hofstadter's Strange Loops.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 24, 2013
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Hi Eugen,
I can’t see how split brain issue can be a problem for theists.
Not for theists per se, but it's a huge problem for people who believe in an immaterial soul that is the 'true self' -- the seat of will, consciousness, morality, rationality, etc.
I didn’t read much on the topic but I think split brain patients are still identifying themselves as one person.
Sure, but that's because only the left hemisphere controls speech. It thinks it is the person, and it says so. Did you watch the two videos I linked to in the body of the OP? The right hemisphere can communicate by pointing, while the left hemisphere can speak. link, link The evidence shows that one hemisphere can know things the other hemisphere doesn't know. One hemisphere can believe things the other hemisphere doesn't believe (in Ramachandran's amazing example, one hemisphere was theist and the other was atheist). One hemisphere can try to do things, and the other hemisphere can try to stop it (e.g. the man who attacked his wife with one arm and defended her with the other). How does a believer in the soul explain that? Does the soul split in two when the corpus callosum is cut? If so, why? And if the soul remains "in one piece", then why does one hemisphere know, believe, desire, and do things that the other hemisphere does not? If you admit that each of the hemispheres does its own knowing, believing, desiring, etc., then you are admitting that the soul does not do these things -- the brain does. It's a tremendous problem for the dualist.keiths
June 24, 2013
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Keiths I can't see how split brain issue can be a problem for theists. I didn't read much on the topic but I think split brain patients are still identifying themselves as one person. Even some people without such operation have a split personality. Operation is such trauma for the brain which was used to having two somewhat different processing units working together. Lets call halves of the brain an electro chemical holographic processors. While processors were connected they cooperated in making decisions. Suddenly the the path of interaction between the two halves is interrupted, broken. Peculiar behavior which patients get into after the operation should be no surprise. Space Shuttle used to have three cooperating processors. Same data was inputted to all and after processing, decisions were made by "consensus" or by "voting" - two against one.Eugen
June 24, 2013
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