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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
Piotr @368:
You are wrong again. My example (or any other example of a living population evolving over many generations) shows how a population can “climb Mt. Improbable” without violating any statistically grounded principles (like the 2LOT or any variation on that theme).
Everyone knows that a population can proceed from A to B without violating the 2LOT. No-one is arguing that anything that actually exists violates the 2LOT. That is not the issue. The question is how did the population proceed from A to B? What mechanisms were involved? Are those mechanisms inherently thermodynamically favorable, or were the thermodynamic constraints dealt with and taken into account by those highly improbable arrangements of matter you dismiss and by the highly improbably coding instructions that materialists think just happen to have come into existence? Furthermore, as I said right in the OP, the interesting aspect of living organisms is not so much the thermal properties (although those are interesting and merit discussion), but the informational and organizational aspects. Nevertheless, the continued assertion by materialists (not necessarily you, but an extremely common assertion) that either (a) the 2LOT is irrelevant to biological systems, or (b) the 2LOT constraints don't need to be looked at closely because "hey, Earth is an open system" (or similar phrasing) is pure nonsense. The thermodynamics of the system under study are an issue. OOL researchers acknowledge they are an issue. And they are an issue that has not yet found any explanation under the materialistic paradigm.Eric Anderson
June 2, 2015
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scordova: 359 Kelvin Room temperature would be fine. Extra credit for determining the difference due to holding the coins in your hands for a few moments.Zachriel
March 28, 2015
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What is the thermodynamic entropy of twenty copper pennies?
C'mon Mung show some brain power, I did the calculation for 500 copper pennies, surely you can do it for a mere 20. How about 20 copper pennies at 359 Kelvin? Otherwise Zachriel will own you.scordova
March 28, 2015
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Mung: Are you claiming that available microstates cannot be expressed in information theory? Try a simple example. What is the thermodynamic entropy of twenty copper pennies? Does it matter whether they are 'organized' all heads or random heads and tails?Zachriel
March 28, 2015
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Mung: Are you claiming that available microstates cannot be expressed in information theory? There is a parallel in statistical thermodynamics to information theory. 'Thermo bits', in this formulation, refers to the statistics of microstates, while 'info bits' refers to the statistics. Hence, when you say "Thermodynamics can be reformulated in information theory terms, in which 'thermo bits' mean the same thing as 'info bits'," you are drawing an equivalence between "two apples" and "two". If that was not your intent, that's fine. Just clarify your statement. Mung: If it gets too hot, it becomes too {disorganized disordered}. And the entropy is? Too high. Mung: If it becomes too cold it becomes too {organized ordered}. And the entropy is? Too low.Zachriel
March 28, 2015
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Salvador:
In some cases one might want to have lower entropy to get more organization. Example: a living creature is raised way past the boiling point of water so that it dies. In this case too much entropy is deadly.
How does one obtain more organization by introducing less entropy Sal?
Example: a living creature is raised way past the boiling point of water so that it dies. In this case too much entropy is deadly.
Example: a living creature is lowered way past the freezing point of water so that it dies. In this case too little entropy is deadly. Right Sal? If it gets too hot, it becomes too disorganized. If it becomes too cold it becomes too organized. And the entropy is?Mung
March 28, 2015
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Salvador: A warm living human being has more statistical entropy than a dead lifeless ice cube, What is "statistical entropy" Sal? How does one calculate "statistical entropy" Sal? What does it even mean to say that an ice cube is dead and lifeless? Was the ice cube once alive?Mung
March 28, 2015
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Zachriel:
We might have bits of information about the weather, or a horse race, or about Sally (did she or didn’t she?). Or we might just have plain ol’ bits. But that’s not thermodynamics, which refers to available microstates.
So you agree that information is always ABOUT something? http://www.matheory.info/reviews.html Zachriel:
Or we might just have plain ol’ bits.
Don't be stupids. Zachriel:
But that’s not thermodynamics, which refers to available microstates.
So? Are you claiming that available microstates cannot be expressed in information theory?Mung
March 28, 2015
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scordova:
[Note: I'm a creationist, but I'm writing to discourage creationists from using 2nd Law arguments in favor of creation. There are many reasons to doubt evolution, but the 2nd Law isn't one of them.]
You're confused. You confuse arguments for creation with arguments against evolution. You're also confused about 2nd Law arguments. I'm going to guess that this all harks back to your past. At some point you made a fool of yourself with a misguided "2nd Law" argument. Am I right? And so now you think it incumbent upon you to declare that "2nd Law" arguments ought to be avoided by creationists and ID proponents. Without being able to say why. Emotion is a poor substitute for reason.Mung
March 28, 2015
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Box, I missed your question in #54 (btw thank you for the kind words):
An increase in organization implies a decrease of statistical entropy, right?
The answer depends on who you ask!!!! I will say "NO". A warm living human being has more statistical entropy than a dead lifeless ice cube, if we argue the human being has more organization than the ice cube, then it is clear in that case more organization in being alive required more entropy, not less. In some cases one might want to have lower entropy to get more organization. Example: a living creature is raised way past the boiling point of water so that it dies. In this case too much entropy is deadly. It's not a matter of having too much or too little entropy, but just the right amounts. ;-)scordova
March 27, 2015
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One more time- The 2LoT is irrelevant for the simple fact that our opponents don't have anything anyway. They don't have a model. they don't have entailments and they don't have any testable hypotheses. They can't even say if their claims are feasible! Now if they ever come up with something tat will be the time to show how the 2LoT prevents it, if applicable. But right now they don't have anything so just leave it at that, but keep reminding them with every post.Joe
March 26, 2015
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Mung: Who ever claimed that “two apples” is the same as “two.” M: Thermodynamics can be reformulated in information theory terms, in which “thermo bits” mean the same thing as “info bits.” We might have bits of information about the weather, or a horse race, or about Sally (did she or didn't she?). Or we might just have plain ol' bits. But that's not thermodynamics, which refers to available microstates.Zachriel
March 26, 2015
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...and that the tosses are independent...DNA_Jock
March 26, 2015
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Well, in about 95% of trials with a fair coin the number of heads will be between 228 and 272 (that is, 250 +/- 2 standard deviations). The probability of exactly 250 heads and 250 tails coming up is C(500,250)*2^(-500) = (500!/(250!)^2)*2^(-500) = 1.167443...e+149/3.273390...e+150 = 0.035878... . In plain English, you can expect exactly 250 heads more or less once per 30 trials. The probability of all heads is, of course, 1/3.273390...e+150 = 3.054936...e-149. Of course the tosses have to satisfy the condition that the probability distribution is uniform.Piotr
March 26, 2015
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Mung: Thermodynamics can be reformulated in information theory terms, in which “thermo bits” mean the same thing as “info bits.” Zachriels: No. “Two apples” are not the same as “two”. And all of you are morons. But then all of you already knew that. If you all don't understand the conversation then you all should just stay out of it. Who ever claimed that "two apples" is the same as "two." You're such a bunch of dullards Zachriels. The point is that if you want to count apples, and you want to count pears, and if you want to count dullards, and you find that there are two of each...Mung
March 25, 2015
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scordova:
To illustrate. Start out with 500 fair coins 100% heads in a big box. Shake the box. It will become 50% heads. No amount of further shaking will make it 100% heads again in this universe.
Calculate the probabilities for us Salvador. What is the probability that after vigorous shaking we will find exactly 250 coins heads and exactly 250 coins tails?
No amount of further shaking will make it 100% heads again in this universe.
That depends. There is still a probability that can be assigned to the distribution. The second law does not prohibit an all heads from appearing any more than the second law prohibits a configuration of 250 heads and 250 tails. Heisenberg knew this, but you apparently still don't.Mung
March 25, 2015
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scordova:
Some may have wondered why me (a creationist) has taken the side of the ID-haters with regards to the 2nd law.
Not really. What we really want to know is why you can start your own threads over at TSZ but cannot originate your own threads here at UD. You used to be able to author threads here at UD, what changed? Did someone here at UD take away your ability to author threads here and if so, why? Or is your failure to start your own threads here voluntary? You claim you were persecuted here for your beliefs and ostracized. How so?Mung
March 25, 2015
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Box: IOW you agree with #364. No, because you add the nebulous "general understanding". Zachriel: Without the hole, thermodynamics keeps the contents of the cell within its membrane (lipid bilayer). Box: Hold on, this doesn’t seem so obvious to me. The physics of lipid bilayers can be complex, but the basic principle is that amphiphiles will spontaneously form a two-molecule wide membrane in water. The hydrophilic heads will face the outside of the membrane, while the hydrophobic tails will be inside the membrane. http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-59ecc5a50b981e1bc2f85632b5e94cce?convert_to_webp=trueZachriel
March 25, 2015
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So I take it then that, in your opinion, it is not mandatory to point to a physical law?
It could be stated as a law I suppose, but it would not be the 2nd law of thermodynamics. As far as I know, there hasn't been any codified law for such things in science books. The closes thing is Pasteur's law of biogenesis. Going back to the 500 fair coins, as pointed out, the number of design space microstates is 2^500, but these microstates are not the same as the thermodynamic microstates which number in the range of 2^(8.636 x 10^25) microstates (if the coins are pure copper pennies). One might ask, "how do we actually count the thermodynamic microstates?" Hehehe. Not so easily, and only by inference! The way this is done is brutally involved. The problem is we cannot apply the 2nd law to design space microstates, but we can apply the LLN to design space microstates. Example: A system of 500 fair coins 100% heads is circumstantial evidence of design, since the expectation is 50% heads not 100%, and 100% heads is both improbable and not do to chance processes that increase uncertainty in heads/tails configuration (chance processes like shaking or other mindless forms of flipping the coin). We circumstantially infer design based on the LLN. There is surely a physical law we could assert that is in play, but it just doesn't have a name. Since the microstates in question (heads/tails) are design space microstates and not thermodynamic microstates, the 2nd law should not be used. Now, I should add, heating the coins makes the molecules more chaotic in their vibrations, in that sense adding heat adds "disorder" to the molecules themselves, but this doesn't say much about whether the system of 500 coins will or will not evidence design. I could for example have a system of 500 fair coins outside in the cold and then when I bring them inside so I can arrange them, as they heat up, they get more thermodynamic entropy (and thus the molecules are more are "disordered", and I use the term quite loosely) but nevertheless I organize the warmed coins into a design. This is an example where the molecules themselves could be more "disordered" even after the process of making a design. That's why I said, one should consider that a warm living human being has more thermodynamic entropy ("disorder" if one really insists on using an inaccurate term) than a lifeless cube of ice. I don't like the word "disorder" to describe thermodynamic entropy. It's inaccurate, but it's still in many textbooks, and the misnomer is because of a passing comment by Boltzmann which hasn't been quite exorcised from physics, chemistry, and engineering. Hey, since we don't have a name for the law of 500 fair coins converging on 50% heads, maybe we could give it a name, like "Matzke's law" after this little affair: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-statistics-question-for-nick-matzke/scordova
March 25, 2015
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To illustrate. Start out with 500 fair coins 100% heads in a big box. Shake the box. It will become 50% heads. No amount of further shaking will make it 100% heads again in this universe. Breaking Humpty Dumpty results in a similar problem. There is a certain irreversibility to the situation.
Now suppose there is a natural filter which separates heads from tails and sends the latter back to the box. You are likely to end up with all heads after about ten rounds of shaking followed by selection.Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Scordova: To illustrate. Start out with 500 fair coins 100% heads in a big box. Shake the box. It will become 50% heads. No amount of further shaking will make it 100% heads again in this universe. Breaking Humpty Dumpty results in a similar problem.
I fully agree. And this is exactly what I was trying to say when I wrote in #352:
Box: Of all the micro- and macrostates possible in the test tube, those constituting a living cell are statistically improbable.
So I take it then that, in your opinion, it is not mandatory to point to a physical law?Box
March 25, 2015
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do you hold that naturalistic (or oridinary) forces would actually preclude putting Humpty Dumpty back together again without a miracle because of the law of large numbers?
Yes. To illustrate. Start out with 500 fair coins 100% heads in a big box. Shake the box. It will become 50% heads. No amount of further shaking will make it 100% heads again in this universe. Breaking Humpty Dumpty results in a similar problem. There is a certain irreversibility to the situation.scordova
March 25, 2015
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Scordova,
Scordova: I was disagreeing with the use of the 2nd law, I’d agree naturalistic (or oridinary) forces would actually preclude the formation of life without a miracle.
Thank you for clarifying. - - - On #375: To be clear: do you hold that naturalistic (or oridinary) forces would actually preclude the formation of life putting Humpty Dumpty back together again without a miracle because of the law of large numbers? [edit:] is it, in your opinion, not mandatory to point to a physical law?Box
March 25, 2015
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there is a close relationship
Yes, absolutely. ID and the modern formulation of the 2nd law in terms of statistical mechanics depend on statistical principles (like the law of large numbers). However ID does not depend on the 2nd law, any more than the 2nd law depends on ID, they are sort of sister ways of viewing things statistically, their founding fathers are statistical concepts (which include the Law of Large Numbers). Trying to derive ID from the 2nd law is sort of like trying to get someone to give birth to their own full (not-half) sister. The concepts are related, but not in the way most creationists and IDists think.scordova
March 25, 2015
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Scordova: That’s what I disagree with.
I was disagreeing with the use of the 2nd law, I'd agree naturalistic (or oridinary) forces would actually preclude the formation of life without a miracle. Sorry for the confusion! My apologies.scordova
March 25, 2015
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Scordova, Most of what you wrote appeals to me, however I find some comments puzzling.
Box: But the parts won’t reassemble into a living cell by natural forces alone
your reply:
Scordova: That’s what I disagree with.
and then you go on explaining that you in fact do agree with my statement (?):
Scordova: With respect to OOL and Humpty Dumpty, the expected outcome is non-life, not life. Life emerging in those situations is a very severe violation of expectation (both theoretical and empirical) and if there is a violation of expectation, at some point one might call it a miracle.
I gather that you don't agree with the reason why the punctured cell won't reassemble. According to you it's not due to the second law, but due to the law of large numbers. On the other hand you also state that there is a close relationship:
Scordova: It [LLN] is the law of math that makes the 2nd law of thermodynamics a law of physics.
Box
March 25, 2015
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Scordova, Would you be so kind to comment on #352?
I was trying to be kind by not commenting. :-)
Thank you for the Humpty Dumpty argument.
You are welcome. :-)
It seems to me that the 2nd law is very relevant to this argument:
If we place a small amount of sterile salt solution in a test tube at just the right temperature and acidity, add a living cell, and then poke a hole in that cell with a sterile needle, the contents will leak out. We will have in our test tube all of the molecules needed for life, in just the right proportions (relative to each other) and already assembled into complex specified DNAs, RNAs, proteins, lipids, and carbohydrates. [ But the parts won’t reassemble into a living cell by natural forces alone ].
That's what I disagree with. I'm trying to spare creationists and IDists from making such arguments in the future, it will lead to some embarrassing exchanges if your opponent has even cursory skills in calculating thermodynamic entropy or has understanding of statistical mechanics and information theory. I have some background in these areas since my formal training is in Engineering and Physics.
What prevents the parts from self-organizing into a living cell? And how do we know?
It is not the 2nd Law of thermodynamics, but rather the Law of Large Numbers. See: https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/the-fundamental-law-of-intelligent-design/
After being in the ID movement for 10 years, and suffering through many debates, if someone were to ask me what is the most fundamental law upon which the ID case rests, I would have to say it is the law of large numbers (LLN). It is the law that tells us that a set of fair coins randomly shaken will converge on 50% heads and not 100% heads. It is the law that tells us systems will tend toward disorganization rather than organization. It is the law of math that makes the 2nd law of thermodynamics a law of physics. Few notions in math are accorded the status of law. We have the fundamental theorem of calculus, the fundamental theorem of algebra, and the fundamental theorem of arithmetic — but the law of large numbers is not just a theorem, it is promoted to the status of law, almost as if to emphasize its fundamental importance to reality.
Well, that bit about "law of large numbers" being promoted to status of law is a tongue-in-cheek exaggeration, but the rest is accurate.
To understand what the law of large numbers is, it requires understanding the notion of expected value or expectation value. Rather than giving the somewhat brutal mathematical formalism of expected value, let me give an illustration with coins. If we have large set of fair coins, there is an expectation that approximately 50% of the fair coins will be heads after a vigorous shaking or flipping of the coins (a random process). That is, the expected value for the proportion of heads is 50%. As we examine sets of coins that are very large (say 10,000 coins), the outcome will tend to converge so close to 50% heads so frequently that we can say from a practical standpoint, the proportion will be 50% or close to 50% with every shaking of the set. If we consider each coin in the set as a “trial”, the example illustrates the law of large numbers. Formally stated the law of large numbers says:
the average of the results obtained from a large number of trials should be close to the expected value, and will tend to become closer as more trials are performed. Law of Large Numbers
With respect to OOL and Humpty Dumpty, the expected outcome is non-life, not life. Life emerging in those situations is a very severe violation of expectation (both theoretical and empirical) and if there is a severe enough violation of expectation, at some point one might call it a miracle. Personally, I would call it a miracle, and the miraculous emergence of life is a sufficient (but not necessary) evidence of ID. But more important to me personally, if life is a miracle, there must be a Miracle Maker. ;-) One can crawl through the math, but the Humpty Dumpty illustration is a nice way to intuitively understand the difficulty in ordinary chemistry spontaneously creating life. I use the word "ordinary" since "natural" has philosophical and theological connotations. "Ordinary processes do not make life." That statement should be beyond reproach scientifically. Whether that is a miracle or not, that is a theological or philosophical or whatever sort of question. I obviously have my opinions, but if I were in debate rather than debating ID vs. Naturalism, I'd debate ordinary vs. extra-ordinary since that frames the debate in terms of pure science and the law of large numbers. People can decide for themselves what the significance of such an extra-ordinary events like the emergence of life is.scordova
March 25, 2015
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Scordova, Would you be so kind to comment on #352?Box
March 25, 2015
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[Note: I'm a creationist, but I'm writing to discourage creationists from using 2nd Law arguments in favor of creation. There are many reasons to doubt evolution, but the 2nd Law isn't one of them.] A warm living human has substantially more thermodynamic entropy than a lifeless ice cube. This can be demonstrated by taking the standard molar entropies of water and ice and estimating the entropy of water in a warm living human vs entropy of water in a lifeless ice cube. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(data_page) Std Molar Entropy liquid water: 69.95 J/mol/K Std Molar Entropy ice: 41 J/mol/K A human has more liquid water, say 30 liters, than an ice cube (12 milliliters). Let S_humum be the entropy of a human, and S_ice_cube the entropy of an ice cube. Order of magnitude entropy numbers: S_human > 30 liters * 55.6 mol/liter * 69.95 J/K = 116,677 J/K S_ice_cube ~= 0.012 liters * 55.6 mol/liter * 41 J/K = 27 J/K approximately (ice is a little less dense than liquid water, but this is inconsequential for the question at hand). Thus warm living human has more entropy than a lifeless cube of ice. So why do creationists worry about entropy increasing in the universe as precluding evolution? Given that a warm living human has more entropy than an ice cube, then it would seem there are lots of cases where MORE entropy is beneficial. Ergo, the 2nd law does not preclude evolution. Other lines of reasoning should be used by ID proponents to criticize evolution, not the 2nd law.scordova
March 25, 2015
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Some may have wondered why me (a creationist) has taken the side of the ID-haters with regards to the 2nd law. It is because I am concerned for the ability of college science students in the disciplines of physics, chemistry and engineering understanding the 2nd law. The calculations I've provided are textbook calculations as would be expected of these students. The fundamental problem is 2LOT is concerned with energy (or position/momentum) microstates, whereas IDists are concerened with "design space" microstates. The number of microstates can both be expressed in information bits, but it does not mean we are dealing with the same microstates. I'm providing sample calculations to prove the point that it is disastrous for IDists to invoke textbook 2LOT for the simple reason 2LOT is concerened with energy (or position/momentum) microstates which has little or nothing to do with "design space" microstates of interest to ID. I'm going through textbook thermodynamics here. If we have 500 fair copper pennies, how many "design space" microstates are there? Standard ID answer: 2^500 since there are 500 coins and each coin has 2 states, a system of 500 coins then has 2^500 possible symbolic configurational states or microstates. This can also be expressed in bits: I_design_space = - log2( 1/ (2^500) ) = 500 bits What is the design space entropy? I_design_space = S_design_space = 500 bits IN CONTRAST, how many thermodynamic energy microstates are there in this system of 500 pure copper pennies at standard "room" temperature (298 Kelvin). The textbook style calculation is as follows: Mass of a copper penny 3.11 grams. Molar weight of copper 65.546. Standard molar entropy of copper 33.2 J/K/mol. Thermodynamic entropy of 500 copper pennies is therefore: S_thermodynamic = 500 * 33.2 Jolues/Kelvin/Mol * 3.11 grams 65.546 grams/ mol = 826.68 J/K The thermodynamic entropy in J/K can be converted to bits by simply dividing by Boltzman's constant and then converting the natural log measure to log-base-2 measure. Boltzmann's constant is 1.381x 10-23 J/K). The natural log to log-base-2 conversion is ln(2) = .693147. Thermodyamic entropy in bits is computed as follows: S_thermodynamic = I_thermodynmic =826.86 J/K = 826.68 J/K / (1.381x 10^-23 J/K) / .693147 = 8.636 x 10^25 bits The number of thermodynamic microstates is simply taking 2 raised to the power of I_thermodynmic 2^(8.636 x 10^25) which is a GIGANTIC number. Clearly the design space entropy is not the same as the thermodynamic entropy because the design space microstate is not the same as the thermodynamic microstate. Now let us heat the coins from room temperature to near boiling of water (373 Kelvin). What is the change in entropy or the number of microstates? At 373 Kelvin the "design space" entropy is still 500 bits since the possible number heads tails microstates does not change with this increase in temperature. However the thermodynamic entropy and thermodynamic microstates change. What is the change in entropy? Again using standard textbook thermodynamics. Specific heat of copper 0.39 J/gram Heat capcity C of 500 copper pennies: C = 0.39 J/gram/K * 500 pennies * 3.11 grams/penny/K = 606 J/K T_initial = 298 K T_final = 373 K To calculate the change in entropy I used the formulas from: http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node41.html delta-S_thermodynamic = C ln ( T_final/T_initial) = 606 J/K ln (373/298) = 136.13 J/K Total thermodynamic entropy is calculated as follows: S_thermodynamic_initial = 826.86 J/K S_thermodyanmic_final = S_thermodyanmic_initial + delta-S_thermodynamic = 826.86 J/K + 136.13 J/K = 963.0 J/K Again we can convert this to bits using procedures similar to the above conversions: S_thermodyanmic_final = 963.0 J/K = 963.0 J/K / (1.381x 10-23 J/K) / .693147 = 1.01 x 10^26 bits The ADDED number of microstates due to the increase in temperature is calculated as follows: delta-S_thermodynamic = 136.13 J/K = 136.13 J/K / (1.381x 10^-23 J/K) / .693147 = 1.42 x 10^25 bits Thus the number of thermodynamic microstates added by heating is simply found by rasing 2 to the power of delta-S_thermodynamic 2^delta-S_thermodyanmic = 2^(1.42 x 10^25) Adding heat can be said to make the copper molecules bounce around more chaotically (disorderly if you will), and hence increase the thermodynamic entropy and microstates, but it says nothing of the change in design space entropy or microstates. BOTTOM LINE: Increasing heat increases the thermodynamic entropy and the individual copper molecules look more chaotic (disorderly if you will) because they are vibrating faster from the added heat, but it does nothing to change the design space entropy. At 298 Kelvin: Design Space Entropy: 500 bits number of Design Space microstates: 2^500 Thermodyamic Entropy: 8.636 x 10^25 bits number Thermodynamic microstates: 2^(8.636 x 10^25) At 373 Kelvin by adding heat : Design Space Entropy: 500 bits number of Design Space microstates: 2^500 change in Design Space entropy due to heat change : 0 bits change in number of Design Space microstate due to heat change: 0 microstates Thermodyamic Entropy: 1.01 x 10^26 bits number Thermodynamic microstates: 2^(1.01 x 10^26) change in thermodynamic entropy due to heat change : 1.42 x 10^25 bits change in number of thermodynamic microstates due to heat change: 2^(1.42 x 10^25) microstates Moral of the story: don't use 2lot to argue for design space entropy change. Besides, as pointed out earlier, increasing design complexity usually entails increase of both design and thermodynamic entropy. Why all this obsession with reducing entropy to increase design complexity? I hope one can see it can be desirable to INCREASE entropy (both design and thermodynamic) in order to increase design complexity. A warm living complex human has more thermodynamic and design space entropy than a dead lifeless ice cube.scordova
March 25, 2015
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