Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
SalC: pardon, but I think 6 above -- including the PS -- points to where I think some key concerns lie and why I think essentially any argument of consequence design supporters raise will face massive strawman caricature and dismissal challenges as well as linked ad hominem attacks. We have to deal with that problem, aggressively. KFkairosfocus
March 16, 2015
March
03
Mar
16
16
2015
08:21 PM
8
08
21
PM
PDT
Scordova, I'm glad for your forthrightness on this. Some lingering questions though: The Sun has had an abundance of high order energy for billions of years. Why no life on the Sun? Similarly, Venus, the moon, Jupiter etc. Why no life? It doesn't satisfy me when people say that there is no liquid water in those locations. So what? My computer doesn't have liquid water. Why can't Venus make a self-replicating computer? Maybe these questions aren't "Second Law" questions, but just what AM I getting at? Is there some scientific principle that can explain why Venus doesn't have life, notwithstanding its lack of liquid water?Collin
March 16, 2015
March
03
Mar
16
16
2015
08:09 PM
8
08
09
PM
PDT
EA, I just commented in reply to many of the errors of projection you outlines, here: https://uncommondescent.com/molecular-animations/piotr-and-ks-dna_jock-vs-et-al-and-compensation-arguments-vs-the-energy-audit-police/#comment-554356 Let me clip the summary on statistical underpinnings of 2LOT that are pivotal to understanding why I question views looking for statistical miracles:
As a simple example, used by Yavorsky and Pinsky in their Physics (MIR, Moscow, USSR, 1974, Vol I, pp. 279 ff.]) of approximately A Level or first College standard and discussed in my always linked note as being particularly clear, which effectively models a diffusion situation, we may consider . . . a simple model of diffusion, let us think of ten white and ten black balls in two rows in a container. There is of course but one way in which there are ten whites in the top row; the balls of any one colour being for our purposes identical. But on shuffling, there are 63,504 ways to arrange five each of black and white balls in the two rows, and 6-4 distributions may occur in two ways, each with 44,100 alternatives. So, if we for the moment see the set of balls as circulating among the various different possible arrangements at random, and spending about the same time in each possible state on average, the time the system spends in any given state will be proportionate to the relative number of ways that state may be achieved. Immediately, we see that the system will gravitate towards the cluster of more evenly distributed states. In short, we have just seen that there is a natural trend of change at random, towards the more thermodynamically probable macrostates, i.e the ones with higher statistical weights. So “[b]y comparing the [thermodynamic] probabilities of two states of a thermodynamic system, we can establish at once the direction of the process that is [spontaneously] feasible in the given system. It will correspond to a transition from a less probable to a more probable state.” [p. 284.] This is in effect the statistical form of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Thus, too, the behaviour of the Clausius isolated system above is readily understood: importing d’Q of random molecular energy so far increases the number of ways energy can be distributed at micro-scale in B, that the resulting rise in B’s entropy swamps the fall in A’s entropy. Moreover, given that FSCI-rich micro-arrangements are relatively rare in the set of possible arrangements, we can also see why it is hard to account for the origin of such states by spontaneous processes in the scope of the observable universe. (Of course, since it is as a rule very inconvenient to work in terms of statistical weights of macrostates [i.e W], we instead move to entropy, through s = k ln W. Part of how this is done can be seen by imagining a system in which there are W ways accessible, and imagining a partition into parts 1 and 2. W = W1*W2, as for each arrangement in 1 all accessible arrangements in 2 are possible and vice versa, but it is far more convenient to have an additive measure, i.e we need to go to logs. The constant of proportionality, k, is the famous Boltzmann constant and is in effect the universal gas constant, R, on a per molecule basis, i.e we divide R by the Avogadro Number, NA, to get: k = R/NA. The two approaches to entropy, by Clausius, and Boltzmann, of course, correspond. In real-world systems of any significant scale, the relative statistical weights are usually so disproportionate, that the classical observation that entropy naturally tends to increase, is readily apparent.)
In short, for over 100 years, 2LOT has not stood on its own as an empirical law that somehow comes up with a magic quantity ds that gives us time's arrow. It is deeply connected to molecular level behaviours of systems. I then went on to discuss a bridge to the FSCO/I concept and will clip again . . . though to understand my argument I point to the comment in the context of the OP, onward linked notes and exchanges. I have felt very much that what I and many others have actually argued has been twisted beyond reason into strawman caricatures. Which has been an unfortunate problem with debates on evo going back to the Scopes trial and beyond to the misrepresentation of Paley's full watchmaker argument. For in Ch 2 of NT he went on to insightfully discuss implications of a time-keeping, self replicating watch. Anyway, let us draw on L K Nash::
A closely parallel first example by L K Nash, ponders the likely outcome of 1,000 coins tossed at random per the binomial distribution. This turns out to be a sharply peaked bell curve centred on 50-50 H-T as has been discussed. The dominant cluster will be just this, with the coins in no particular sequence. But, if instead we were to see all H or all T or alternating H and T or the first 143 characters of this comment in ASCII code we can be assured that of the 1.07*10^301 possibilities, such highly specific, “simply describable” sets of outcomes are utterly maximally unlikely to come about by blind chance or mechanical necessity, but are readily explained on design. That sort of pattern is a case of complex specified information, and in the case of the ascii code, functionally specific complex organisation and associated information; FSCO/I, particularly digitally coded functionally specific information, dFSCI. This example draws out the basis of the design inference on FSCO/I; as, the observed cosmos of 10^80 atoms or so, each having a tray of 1,000 coins flipped and observed every 10^-14 s, will in a reasonable lifespan to date of 10^17 s look at 10^111 possibilities. An upper limit to the number of Chem rxn speed atomic scale events in the observed cosmos to date. A large number, but one utterly dwarfed by 10^301 possibilities or so. Reducing the former to the size of a hypothetical straw, the size of the cubical haystack it would be pulled from would reduce our observed cosmos to a small blob by comparison. That is, any reasonably isolated and special, definable cluster of possible configs, will be maximally unlikely to be found by such a blind search. Far too much haystack, too few needles, no effective scale of search appreciably different from no search. On the scope of events we can observe, then, we can only reasonably expect to see cases from the overwhelming bulk. This, with further development, is the core statistical underpinning of 2LOT. And, as prof Sewell pointed out, the statistical challenge does not go away when you open up a system to generic, non functionally specific mass or energy inflows etc, opened up systems of appreciable size . . . and a system whose state can be specified by 1,000 bits of info is small indeed (yes a coin is a 1-bit info storing register) . . . the statistically miraculous will be still beyond plausibility unless something in particular is happening that makes it much more plausible. Something, like organised forced motion that sets up special configs. In short, we cannot properly expect a: molecular noise or general statistical and chemical behaviour in a Darwin’s warm salty lightning struck pond or other typical proposed pre-life setting to b: spontaneously and cumulatively do the massive quantity of functionally specific and complex configuration work — forced, ordered motion at micro or macro levels — that c: is required to get us anywhere serious along the road to self replicating, metabolising, coded info using cell based life. d: No more than we can reasonably expect to compose this post by flipping coins. In short, the proposed OOL frameworks expect forces overwhelmingly of diffusion, disorganisation etc to spontaneously carry out a cascade of statistical miracles and create FSCO/I. Where 2LOT in light of the statistical underpinnings in effect says, such statistical miracles are unobservable due to the relative weights of clusters of microstates consistent with given macrostates. Or as G N Lewis etc would put it, the entropy of a system is effectively the average missing info to specify its microstate (range of micro-level freedom of distribution of micro level mass and energy) given the macro state conditions. The spontaneous direction of change . . . say we start with 500H-500 T in the coins will be away from low uncertainty micro state clusters to high uncertainty ones; the famous time’s arrow description of entropy. In the long run, spontaneous changes will settle the states in dominant clusters, an equilibrium. Consistent with this, we can constrain systems to be far from that by imposing a pattern of forced ordered motion. But, we will pay a price. Work comes from converting energy sources into useful ordered motion, often by way of shaft work as seen in the OP. High quality energy is extracted, flows through a working system, which may execute a programmed series of motions that create desired configs, then degraded waste energy must be rejected, often as heat. The net entropy rise for such will exceed the reduction of entropy occasioned by the constructive work as described. That comes from Szilard’s analysis of Maxwell’s Demon a thought intelligence carrying out such organising work. The problem with the spontaneous OOL stories we are being told, is they want to get organisation for free, through statistical miracles. That is Darwin’s warm pond — which is NOT coupled to an effective and informed energy-work device — is in effect a perpetual motion device of the second kind. This is covered up by suggesting that somehow energy and materials flux through the pond (or like environment) can be used to compensate. Won’t work for a conventional perpetuum mobile of the second kind and won’t work for this. Hence my cry to call in the energy auditors to assess relevant energy-work flows.
Hope this helps, and helps draw out the bridge to discussion on FSCO/I. KF PS: I am now of the view that essentially ANY well informed discussion by a supporter of design theory will be twisted into strawman tactic simplistic dismissible caricatures and that this underlying problem will have to be sharply exposed and corrected. This is a broader form of my longstanding conviction that there is a dangerous trifecta rhetorical fallacy we face: red herrings led away to strawman caricatures and set alight to poison, cloud, confuse and polarise the atmosphere, frustrating serious and sober discussion.kairosfocus
March 16, 2015
March
03
Mar
16
16
2015
08:09 PM
8
08
09
PM
PDT
My Book In the Beginning and Other Essays on Intelligent Design Is Now Out in an Expanded Edition Granville Sewell March 16, 2015 Excerpt: The new Chapter 4 is a June 2013 BIO-Complexity article, "Entropy and Evolution," which is a more "scientific" version of this story. The new Chapter 3, "How the Scientific Consensus is Maintained," gives a little history of my attempts to publish these ideas, and of the attempts of ID opponents to suppress them. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/my_book_in_the094441.html Other Types of Entropy - Granville Sewell - September 6, 2012 Excerpt: If you insist on limiting the second law to applications involving thermal entropy, and that the only entropy is thermal entropy, than Sal is right that the second law has little to say about the emergence of life on Earth. But it is not just the “creationists” who apply it much more generally, many violent opponents of ID (including Asimov, Dawkins, Styer and Bunn) agree that this emergence does represent a decrease in “entropy” in the more general sense, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/other-types-of-entropy/ Biological Information - Entropy, Evolution and Open Systems 11-15-2014 by Paul Giem - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_G9HtsfXfs
In the following paper, Andy C. McIntosh, professor of thermodynamics and combustion theory at the University of Leeds, holds that non-material information is what is constraining the cell to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium. Moreover, Dr. McIntosh holds that regarding information as independent of energy and matter 'resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions'.
Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems - Andy C. McIntosh - 2013 Excerpt: ,,, information is in fact non-material and that the coded information systems (such as, but not restricted to the coding of DNA in all living systems) is not defined at all by the biochemistry or physics of the molecules used to store the data. Rather than matter and energy defining the information sitting on the polymers of life, this approach posits that the reverse is in fact the case. Information has its definition outside the matter and energy on which it sits, and furthermore constrains it to operate in a highly non-equilibrium thermodynamic environment. This proposal resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions, which despite the efforts from alternative paradigms has not given a satisfactory explanation of the way information in systems operates.,,, http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/9789814508728_0008
Here is a recent video by Dr. Giem, that gets the main points of Dr. McIntosh’s paper over very well for the lay person:
Biological Information – Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems 11-22-2014 by Paul Giem (A. McIntosh) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR_r6mFdwQM
Dr. McIntosh's contention that 'non-material information' must be constraining life to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium has been borne out empirically. Classical Information in the cell has now been physically measured and is shown to correlate to the thermodynamics of the cell:
Maxwell’s demon demonstration (knowledge of a particle’s position) turns information into energy – November 2010 Excerpt: Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the “Maxwell demon” thought experiment devised in 1867.,,, In Maxwell’s thought experiment the demon creates a temperature difference simply from information about the gas molecule temperatures and without transferring any energy directly to them.,,, Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a “spiral-staircase-like” potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-maxwell-demon-energy.html Demonic device converts information to energy – 2010 Excerpt: “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,” says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. “This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale,” says Jarzynski. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=demonic-device-converts-inform
As should be needless to say, the physical demonstration that 'information has a thermodynamic content' is extremely bad news for neo-Darwinism (and OOL for that matter). As well, as if that was not bad enough for neo-Darwinism, it is now found that 'non-local', beyond space-time matter-energy, Quantum entanglement/information 'holds' DNA (and proteins) together:
Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – short video https://vimeo.com/92405752 Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint - 2010 Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours. “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ The DNA Mystery: Scientists Stumped By “Telepathic” Abilities – Sept, 2009 Scientists are reporting evidence that contrary to our current beliefs about what is possible, intact double-stranded DNA has the “amazing” ability to recognize similarities in other DNA strands from a distance. Somehow they are able to identify one another, and the tiny bits of genetic material tend to congregate with similar DNA. The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. per daily galaxy
bornagain77
March 16, 2015
March
03
Mar
16
16
2015
08:09 PM
8
08
09
PM
PDT
I'm and ID proponent and creationist, but with respect to the 2nd law I've had to side with the ID-haters on the question of the 2nd law. I've never been quite forgiven by many of my peers for breaking ranks. A living human has substantially more thermodynamic entropy than a frozen dead rat. Anyone who actually bothers to calculate entropy as taught in Chemistry, Engineering, and Physics textbooks will know this. All things being equal, entropy increases with mass. I don't participate here much anymore. My dissent and disagreement with other ID proponents and creationists isn't exactly welcome. Here are computations that show entropy INCREASE with complexity of design: https://uncommondescent.com/management/a-designed-objects-entropy-must-increase-for-its-design-complexity-to-increase-part-1/ https://uncommondescent.com/computer-science/a-designed-objects-entropy-must-increase-for-its-design-complexity-to-increase-part-2/ Here are derivations that connect Clausius, Boltzman Shannon, Dembski: http://creationevolutionuniversity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=72 Taking the above link, one can even make conversion factor from Clausius entropy expressed in Joule/Kelvin to Shannon Entropy expressed in Bits. Two people on opposite sides of the ID issue (Gordon Davisson and Myself) independently arrived at the same conversion factor! See: https://uncommondescent.com/physics/gordon-davissons-talk-origins-post-of-the-month-october-2000/ https://uncommondescent.com/physics/shannon-information-entropy-uncertainty-in-thermodynamics-and-id/ I probably wasn't really ever forgiven for this heresy: https://uncommondescent.com/computer-science/rube-goldberg-complexity-increase-in-thermodynamically-closed-systems/ Bottom line, I wish ID proponents would de-emphasize the 2nd law, it doesn't add credibility to the ID case, it just adds confusion. Good work, btw, Eric Anderson. PS For the Physics Buffs, I did find these gems: https://uncommondescent.com/physics/landmark-1929-physics-paper-on-the-decrease-of-entropy-in-a-thermodynamic-system-by-the-intervention-of-intelligent-beings/ and https://uncommondescent.com/computer-science/forgotten-creationistid-book-endorsed-by-nobel-prize-winner-in-physics/scordova
March 16, 2015
March
03
Mar
16
16
2015
07:34 PM
7
07
34
PM
PDT
Eric:
Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.
We don't. When we point out that the earth is an open system, we're explaining why OOL and evolution skeptics are foolish to invoke the second law. The second law forbids violations of the second law. That's all it does. OOL and evolution don't violate the second law. They involve open systems which can export entropy into their surroundings. The second law is not a problem for them. EA: Same problem as the prior comment. The "open" system canard is simply a restatement of the "compensation" idea. Completely irrelevant.keith s
March 16, 2015
March
03
Mar
16
16
2015
07:21 PM
7
07
21
PM
PDT
Also, as I keep reminding all of you, to deny the validity of the compensation argument is to deny the validity of the second law itself. They are inseparable. Every local decrease in entropy would violate the second law if the compensation argument were invalid. EA: Again you fall prey to an unhelpful discourse-halting myth. The compensation argument you keep putting forth is made by abiogenesis proponents as a response to skeptics pointing out the problems with abiogenesis. But the compensation argument is irrelevant and a red herring. It does not address the question at hand. It doesn't make any difference whether there is "compensation" going on elsewhere. It doesn't matter whether compensation is the most true fact in the universe. It simply is not relevant. Thus, it doesn't answer anything. Its primary function is as a handwaving device to avoid dealing with the real issues.keith s
March 16, 2015
March
03
Mar
16
16
2015
07:12 PM
7
07
12
PM
PDT
Eric:
Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.
On the other thread, Box immediately proves Eric wrong:
I gather that the second law – as a statistical law – cannot be overcome under materialism. However there is a spiritual realm which organizes matter – thereby overcoming the 2nd law. I hold that this is just what we see around us; as Granville Sewell and others pointed out many times.
Too funny. EA: What is too funny -- no, sad, actually -- is that even after I laid out the point clearly you are still unable or unwilling to make a genuine attempt at discourse. Box did not argue in the quote you cited that the 2nd Law had been violated, in the sense that it does not hold. He is saying that the normal effects of the 2nd Law can be countered by engineering and design. That doesn't mean the 2nd Law has been proven to have exceptions. Is just means that the 2nd Law has been taken into account in the engineering/design process. If you are still having trouble with this concept, do a quick Google search for something like "aviation overcome-gravity" and you will see what I mean.keith s
March 16, 2015
March
03
Mar
16
16
2015
07:00 PM
7
07
00
PM
PDT
1 12 13 14

Leave a Reply