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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
Zachriel @334: tabasco's point is relevant (and correct) in terms of pointing out that not all ID arguments need involve the 2LoT (most of them don't, and we're all happy with that fact). But it does not follow, as you seem to be implying, that the 2LoT cannot be relevant to either (a) design arguments, or (b) critiques of abiogenesis. Please don't try to apply tabasco's very narrow point a bridge too far. The fact that not all arguments against abiogenesis involve the 2LoT certainly doesn't mean that none of them can.Eric Anderson
March 24, 2015
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Box: 1. The 2nd law deals with probable and improbable states. 2. Functional organization implies improbable states. 3. Therefor the 2nd law (also) deals with functional organization. 1. The 2nd law is a subset of things that "deal with probable and improbable states". 2. Functional organization is a subset of things that "deal with probable and improbable states". 3. Fallacy of the undistributed middle.Zachriel
March 24, 2015
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Sal @323:
I think a small place, but not much. The one place I saw it was in the problems posed by spontaneous assembly of organisms in the absence of energy. Bradley, Thaxton, and Olsen referred to “configurational entropy” in their classic ID book, Mystery of Life’s origin, but they really could have done their analysis without appeal to that concept, imho.
Thanks for the thoughts. A follow-up question: We would all agree, presumably, that something like a bacterial flagellum arising spontaneously from a chemical soup on the early Earth is not going to happen. Why is that? In other words, if you were explaining to a young student or a newcomer to the debate why you think it would not happen, what would you say (in plain English, sans special terminology, dense calculations, etc.)?Eric Anderson
March 24, 2015
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Zachriel, let me fix that for you (in line with Niwrad #333): 1. The 2nd law deals with probable and improbable states. 2. Functional organization implies improbable states. 3. Therefor the 2nd law (also) deals with functional organization.Box
March 24, 2015
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niwrad: functional organization has a lot to do with the 2nd law of statistical mechanics, because this field deals with probable and improbable states. As delineated by tabasco, that's a fallacy of the undistributed middle:
1. The 2LoT is a probabilistic argument. 2. ID arguments are also probabilistic arguments. 3. Therefore ID arguments involve the 2LoT.
Zachriel
March 24, 2015
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Zachriel
There may be a critical difference between order and functional organization, but it has nothing to do with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Functional organization has no special place in the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Eric Anderson is right, functional organization has a lot to do with the 2nd law of statistical mechanics, because this field deals with probable and improbable states. Functional organization implies improbable states, then the 2nd law also deals with functional organization.niwrad
March 24, 2015
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Eric Anderson: There is a critical difference between mere “order” and functional “organization.” There may be a critical difference between order and functional organization, but it has nothing to do with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Eric Anderson: In contrast, if we are talking about a physical system spontaneously by virtue of the 2LoT under purely natural conditions, then, no, there is a huge difference between mere order and functional organization Functional organization has no special place in the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Eric Anderson: The very first entry on the list defines “thermodynamically favorable” as follows: “meaning it has a reasonable likelihood of proceeding. Hint: Thermodynamically favorable is not the same as kinetically favorable.Zachriel
March 24, 2015
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DNA_Jock @318: We go to the google search link you provided and what do we see? The very first entry on the list defines "thermodynamically favorable" as follows: "meaning it has a reasonable likelihood of proceeding." Seems like there has been a lot of sound and fury for nothing. (Of course we still haven't even talked about larger chemical cascades, which was also part of my sentence to Piotr.) Now shall we keep beating this red herring, or do you want to address the substantive issue all this relates to, per the OP: spontaneous formation of a living system under early Earth conditions?Eric Anderson
March 24, 2015
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Eric Anderson: There is a critical difference between mere “order” and functional “organization.”
Not in the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
If you simply mean that all physical systems are subject to the 2LoT, then fine. But that is not the issue at hand and is irrelevant to the discussion (see myths in OP). In contrast, if we are talking about a physical system spontaneously by virtue of the 2LoT under purely natural conditions, then, no, there is a huge difference between mere order and functional organization.Eric Anderson
March 24, 2015
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Salvador: The thermodynamic information bits are not the same as specified complexity information bits. How would anyone know? What is a "thermodynamic information bit" and what is a "specified complexity information bit"? How do you measure "thermodynamic information" and how do you measure a "specified complexity information"? By convention, a bit is a binary digit. It is a unit of measurement. Now if the binary digit or "bit" represent a YES/NO or TRUE/FALSE answer to a query that can be answered in binary terms, which of those two do you assert cannot be reduced to YES/NO or TRUE/FALSE representations? In fact, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, it is through information theory that "entropy" is stripped of it's mystery.Mung
March 23, 2015
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Mung,
There is an abstraction that goes beyond joule per kelvin...
What is the more abstract version of the 2nd Law? I asked Eric a similar question:
Eric, Please state the 2nd Law in terms of informational entropy, and then in terms of organizational entropy, and provide references to the literature.
tabasco
March 23, 2015
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Mung:
The second law of thermodynamics is a matter of probability, as are the arguments for intelligent design.
tabasco:
It does not follow that intelligent design arguments are second law arguments.
Mung:
Indeed. So take that up with Sal, who can’t understand the distinction.
He understands the distinction. He wrote this just above:
The information bits referred in thermodynamic should not be conflated and equivocated with the information bits that IDists are interested in. They are not the same kinds of information.
tabasco
March 23, 2015
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tabasco: It does not follow that intelligent design arguments are second law arguments. I never said they were. I find it difficult to believe that I even implied that they were. tabascio: Because 2LoT arguments are only a small percentage of probabilistic arguments. Indeed. And wasn't that my original point? Mung: The second law of thermodynamics is a matter of probability, as are the arguments for intelligent design. Mung: There is an abstraction that goes beyond joule per kelvinMung
March 23, 2015
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tabasco: It does not follow that intelligent design arguments are second law arguments. Indeed. So take that up with Sal, who can't understand the distinction. Or do you think ID arguments should be presented in terms of joule per kelvin?Mung
March 23, 2015
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Salvador, just wondering, was your ability to create your own threads here at UD taken away from you?Mung
March 23, 2015
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Sal @302: Thanks for your thoughts.
You're welcome.
Myths #1 and #2 for abiogenesis skeptics relate to your comments, and I agree that a focus on entropy, particularly as it relates to an attempt to tie a thermal measure to an informational measure is problematic.
The thermodynamic information bits are not the same as specified complexity information bits. So even though the 2nd law might be expressed in terms of bits, its not talking about the same class of information an IDist is talking about. An IDist might say 500 fair coins can contain 500 specified complex information bits, whereas a thermodynamice analysis will say it has 8.25 * 10^25 thermodynamic information bits -- assuming we're using copper pennies. :-)
I’m curious: given that even abiogenesis proponents acknowledge there are thermodynamic considerations that need to be addressed and overcome for a viable abiogenesis scenario, do you think there is any place for a thermodynamic critique of abiogenesis?
I think a small place, but not much. The one place I saw it was in the problems posed by spontaneous assembly of organisms in the absence of energy. Bradley, Thaxton, and Olsen referred to "configurational entropy" in their classic ID book, Mystery of Life's origin, but they really could have done their analysis without appeal to that concept, imho.
(Your concern seems primarily to be with the attempted tie of thermodynamics to the design inference, which is a separate issue.)
Exactly. The crux of the matter is the 2nd law of thermodynamics deals with entropy defined in terms of the energy microstates of the particles (molecules) of a system, whereas ID is considers a different kind of microstate. A system of 500 fair coins to a typical IDist has 2^500 heads/tails microstates, whereas a thermodynamicist would view that same 500-fair-coins system (of copper pennies) as having 2^8.25 * 10^25 thermodynamic microstates -- an insanely large number! The root of the problem is the conflation and equivocation of what constitutes a microstate. Oh well, I've ruffled enough feathers for the day....:-)scordova
March 23, 2015
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Granted, But I’m not sure how this is relevant. Instead of comparing warm verses frozen why not try comparing a frozen rat verses frozen compost pile. Which one has the most entropy? To make it a fair comparison let’s stipulate that both the rat and the compost pile are made up of the same materials in the same quantities. For extra credit compare a frozen rat with a warm but sterile compost pile. thanks in advance peace
Actually to make an even more poignant example, "which has more thermodynamic entropy, a warm living man on Thursday or that same man dead and frozen when buried under an avalanche?" Answer: The warm living man. Removing too much entropy from someone can be lethal. Again, my protests is why all this objection about lowering entropy. It can be vital to life and complexity. But to answer your question, if the compost pile is 100 time heavier than the rat, it has more entropy. The reason? There are three ways to increase entropy of a system: 1. increase temperature 2. increase the amount of material in the system 3. both #1 and #2 What has more entropy, a living healthy lamb on Thursday or that same lamb who died because all its blood was drained in a ceremonial sacrifice on Friday? Answer: the living lamb has more entropy, not less. Here is why.... Assume for the sake of argument the amount of water in the blood is a liter. The standard molar entropy of water is 69.95 J/K/mol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(data_page) This implies approximately a liter of water has an entropy on the order of: S = 69.95 J/K/mol * 1000 g water * 18.01528 mol/g = 1,260,169 J/K Before I go further, the calculation above is textbook for Chemistry, Physics and Engineering students give or take some environmental variation from standard conditions. We can convert this entropy in J/K into bits using the conversion factor 1,260,169 * 1.045 x 10^23 = 1.31 * 10^29 bits [The conversion factor can be deduced by inspecting equation for dimensionless entropy stated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_constant ] Thus the living lamb has 1.31 * 10^29 bits more entropy than the dead lamb that lost a liter of water when its blood was spilled out. The moral of the story is THERMODYNAMIC entropy numbers are not too informative about the design complexity of a system. WORSE, it does not reflect well on the ID community to conflate the informational bits of energy microstates related to thermodynamic entropy with the informational bits related to specified complexity. For example, usually when I talk about 500 fair coins, we could arrange the coins to evidence 500 bits of specified complexity, whereas doing the standard molar entropy calculations as physics, chemistry, or engineering student would do, we would arrive at: 8.636 x 1025 Shannon Bits as I derived here https://uncommondescent.com/physics/shannon-information-entropy-uncertainty-in-thermodynamics-and-id/ Btw, someone with some Nobel Prize winning genes supported my calculations in that thread. Look in the comment section to see who I'm referring to. :-) https://uncommondescent.com/physics/shannon-information-entropy-uncertainty-in-thermodynamics-and-id/ The information bits referred in thermodynamic should not be conflated and equivocated with the information bits that IDists are interested in. They are not the same kinds of information. This thread https://uncommondescent.com/physics/shannon-information-entropy-uncertainty-in-thermodynamics-and-id/ tried to distinguish between the two kinds of information, and I even provided the calculations hinting it was disastrous to conflate thermodynamic information bits with specified complexity/improbability bits. But that hasn't stopped others from quoting literature linking information theory and thermodynamics as if it supports ID. It does not because the information bits in thermodynamics are based on energy microstates whereas the information bits in ID are based on design/not-design microstates. I could try to convey the absurdity of these sorts of conflations and equivocations by asking, "what has more entropy a living man on Thursday, or a dead frozen man with all his blood drained out from an avalanche accident on Saturday?" Answer: the warm living man has more entropy, not less. So why again are we so obsessed with finding ways to lower entropy in order to achieve living designs? But it seems, these basic considerations fall on deaf ears....except for guys like you. :-) Thanks for listening. Peace.scordova
March 23, 2015
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#319, Exactly. What is the definition of "organisational entropy"? How do you measure it?Piotr
March 23, 2015
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I wrote (#314)
tens of thousand thousands
Sorry, I was typing in haste. I meant it was probably just tens of thousands at best (unfortunately).Piotr
March 23, 2015
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Eric, in the OP:
Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy. Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy
Eric, Please state the 2nd Law in terms of informational entropy, and then in terms of organizational entropy, and provide references to the literature.tabasco
March 23, 2015
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Eric @315,
I’d be happy to answer your question, as soon as you tell me what you have in mind by the word ‘favorable’ in this context. You obviously have a very narrow and specific meaning in mind and you are hoping to trip me up on a technicality so that you can score a point, rather than addressing the substance of my comment to Piotr.
It is true that I have a specific meaning for "thermodynamically favorable" in mind: the universally accepted one: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=thermodynamically+favorable that is, the Gibbs Free Energy change ("delta-G") is negative (i.e. favorable) Your comment to Piotr (288) read
The types of reactions that are and are not thermodynamically favorable under purely natural conditions (remember, no catalysts, no enzymes, no controlled chemical cascades) is a very important issue.
How can I "address the substance" of this comment if you don't know what "thermodynamically favorable" means?DNA_Jock
March 23, 2015
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Eric Anderson: There is a critical difference between mere “order” and functional “organization.” Not in the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
March 23, 2015
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Zachriel @306:
Any theory of abiogenesis must be consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Without a theory to consider, there’s no way to evaluate the specifics. Metabolism-first hypotheses propose that life organizes itself as a natural response to the dissipation of energy, but these ideas are still incomplete.
So far, so good. Yes, everyone, proponents and skeptics alike, agrees that abiogenesis theories must be consistent with the 2LoT. So presumably if there are aspects of a particular abiogenesis theory that run contrary to our normal experience with the 2LoT, then those aspects would be fair game for criticism.
Intelligent Designer advocates, on the other hand, often claim the 2nd law of thermodynamics prohibits the spontaneous origin of organization. However, the 2nd law of thermodynamics does not prohibit either organization or order, and there are many naturally organizing phenomena.
There is a critical difference between mere "order" and functional "organization." Particularly when we are dealing with, as we are in biology, organization that is complex, functional, and information-rich. Yes, there are many examples of naturally-occurring "order" in the physical world -- people love to bring up crystals, snowflakes and the like. In contrast, there are no known examples of spontaneous, naturally-occurring, functional, information-rich systems.
A common avenue for the Intelligent Design advocate is to then claim that it is intelligence which allows for organization above and beyond the 2nd law of thermodynamics. However, no matter clever you are, you can’t violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. You’re left with deus ex machina.
No-one is suggesting that the 2LoT gets violated through design. That is a misunderstanding of the argument. It is quite clear that intelligence allows for functional, information-rich, far-from-equilibrium systems to be designed and built, including the very computers we are using to make comments on this thread. That is not even a point at issue. The question is whether there is some designer-substitute that can be called upon in the pre-biotic early Earth environment to perform the same kind of creative work. So far, nothing of any substance has been proposed that even comes close to answering the need. Furthermore, our regular, repeated experience with cause and effect in the world clearly teaches that nothing else does answer the need, except intelligence itself.Eric Anderson
March 23, 2015
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DNA_Jock: I'd be happy to answer your question, as soon as you tell me what you have in mind by the word 'favorable' in this context. You obviously have a very narrow and specific meaning in mind and you are hoping to trip me up on a technicality so that you can score a point, rather than addressing the substance of my comment to Piotr. There are certain reactions needed to create simple organic molecules. Would the existence of catalysts make the early Earth conditions more favorable for such reactions to occur? Conversely, does the absence of catalysts make the early Earth conditions less favorable for such reactions to occur?Eric Anderson
March 23, 2015
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I wish funding agencies were really willing to lavish billions on OOL research, but since it's typical exploratory research with little chance of yielding hard results soon, it's more likely tens of thousand thousands per team, if they are lucky (and there are not too many teams concerned mainly with OOL questions. EA: Oh, it has probably exceeded a couple of billion collectively, over the decades if we take the many efforts that feed into the OOL question. If we limit it to only those researchers who say they are specifically focusing all their efforts on OOL, then it would be a more limited group. Yet even in that very limited sense, we are dealing with hundreds of researchers over several decades and several millions of dollars. It is by no means trivial. I'm with you though. Probably would be better to have more spent on OOL than on some other areas, but funds aren't unlimited.Piotr
March 23, 2015
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tabasco @300:
Why? Because 2LoT arguments are only a small percentage of probabilistic arguments. Consider Behe’s IC and “Edge of Evolution” arguments. They’re obviously probabilistic arguments, but they don’t involve the 2LoT — and Behe is smart enough not to try to link them to the 2LoT.
I think you make a good point. There are various subsets of probabilistic arguments.
Why make a mistake that Behe is smart enough to avoid?
I'm not sure what you are referring to here, but I agree that arguments about the 2LoT can be problematic. At the same time, it does not follow that they need be. Nor does it follow that it is always a "mistake" to raise 2LoT considerations or arguments in appropriate circumstances. So there are different arguments that can be made: some better, some worse. There are different contexts in which arguments can be made: drawing a design inference, critiquing abiogenesis, etc. Each has to be evaluated on its own merits.Eric Anderson
March 23, 2015
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Sal @302: Thanks for your thoughts. Myths #1 and #2 for abiogenesis skeptics relate to your comments, and I agree that a focus on entropy, particularly as it relates to an attempt to tie a thermal measure to an informational measure is problematic. I'm curious: given that even abiogenesis proponents acknowledge there are thermodynamic considerations that need to be addressed and overcome for a viable abiogenesis scenario, do you think there is any place for a thermodynamic critique of abiogenesis? (Your concern seems primarily to be with the attempted tie of thermodynamics to the design inference, which is a separate issue.)Eric Anderson
March 23, 2015
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Piotr @301:
Granted (i), why (ii) and (iii)?
Decades of intense research and billions spent trying to get it to work and still nothing even close. Then there is the huge elephant in the room: getting information -- coherent, functional, specific information -- to arise. The only place a naturalistic molecules-to-life scenario has any chance of working is in the imaginations of materialists.Eric Anderson
March 23, 2015
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Z- That was the scene I had in mind LMAODNA_Jock
March 23, 2015
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Experimental method http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/shark1053.com/files/2014/01/fargo-wood-chipper.gifZachriel
March 23, 2015
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