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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
#342
EA: The primary problem with your example, is that it doesn’t address any of the points at issue. Who is arguing that there isn’t enough “flux of entropy on Earth sufficient to allow for such a decrease”? Look back at myths #2 and #3. I’m happy to stipulate that there is sufficient “flux of entropy on Earth”. So what? It most certainly does not show “how life beats low probabilities.” It doesn’t show anything. It is an exercise in irrelevance.
Eric, when a moderator takes part in the discussion, he should post his own comments like everyone else instead of defacing other people's posts with boldface interpolations. You are wrong again. My example (or any other example of a living population evolving over many generations) shows how a population can "climb Mt. Improbable" without violating any statistically grounded principles (like the 2LOT or any variation on that theme). All probabitistic pro-ID arguments that I have ever seen (and don't tell me that your reliance on them is a myth) try to impress people with big exponents and hyperastronomically low probabilities. But you know, probabilities are tricky. If you don't know how to interpret them, your number games become exercises in irrelevance.Piotr
March 25, 2015
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Zachriel: The contents of a cell with a hole in its membrane will spread through the test tube per thermodynamics.
IOW you agree with #364.
Zachriel: Without the hole, thermodynamics keeps the contents of the cell within its membrane (lipid bilayer).
Hold on, this doesn't seem so obvious to me. First off, after the cell dies things will take the same course as initiated by the needle - again due to the 2nd law. But exactly for a lifetime those tendencies towards equilibrium are kept at bay. -- more later --Box
March 25, 2015
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DNA_Jock, where in #352 do I state that the 2nd law is violated?
I never said you did. What you are doing, repeatedly, is adding extra hokum onto the 2LoT, such as "things tend to get more disordered", and calling this your general understanding of the 2nd law, or the "Extended" 2nd law. You do claim that life violates this "extended" 2nd law. In reality, nothing violates the 2LoT, even design. Plenty of things violate your Creationist LoT (CLoT), all the time, without any 'intelligent' intervention. Because the CLoT is bunk.
Now my point is very simple: our agreement is based on our general understanding of the 2nd law
I am confident that any agreement you might have with Zachriel or Curly H is NOT based on your general understanding of the 2nd law. It's probably just a coincidence; even a stopped clock is correct twice a day...DNA_Jock
March 25, 2015
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Box: We agree cells won’t reassemble from their bits and pieces [ based on our general understanding of the 2nd law ]. The contents of a cell with a hole in its membrane will spread through the test tube per thermodynamics. Without the hole, thermodynamics keeps the contents of the cell within its membrane (lipid bilayer). So?Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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Zachriel, let me fix that for ya:
Zachriel: We agree cells won’t reassemble from their bits and pieces [ based on our general understanding of the 2nd law ].
Box
March 25, 2015
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Box: I have not yet provided such a follow-up argument. We agree cells won't reassemble from their bits and pieces. So what?Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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Zachriel,
Box: How about the sterile needle that pokes a hole in the cell? I really don’t see any relevance of what you are saying.
Zachriel: Without the hole, thermodynamics keeps the contents of the cell within its membrane. With the hole, thermodynamics spreads the contents into the test tube.
What of it? What is your point?
Zachriel: It’s a strawman.
What is a strawman? I'm saying that we all agree that the cell won't self-assemble based on our general understanding of the 2nd law. Where is the strawman? I can understand that you are worried about the consequences of this general understanding wrt OOL, however I have not yet provided such a follow-up argument.
Zachriel: Cells are posited to be the result of billions of years of evolution, not instantaneous assembly in a test tube.
Where in #352 do I state otherwise?Box
March 25, 2015
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Eric Anderson: The 2LoT does not just exist and apply everywhere, it imposes certain restraints, drives in a certain direction, provides us an expected trajectory of events. Sure. For instance, biological chemistry is driven by thermodynamic reactions, each step consuming energy to make transformations. You can think of life as swirls within swirls in the energy flow. Eric Anderson: We would never suggest (as some seem to do in the abiogenesis context) that no explanation of how the ISS got to its current location is needed because, hey, both states are consistent with the Law of Gravity. That's right. The Law of Gravity is not an explanation of the ISS, and while we must consider the Law of Gravity to explain the ISS, it is not a "violation" of the Law of Gravity; it doesn't require an "extension" of the Law of Gravity, nor does it represent a different "understanding" of the Law of Gravity; nor is it "overcoming" the Law of Gravity (though it does require overcoming the force of Earth's gravity).Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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Zachriel @355:
Both states are consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so it takes more than the 2nd law of thermodynamics to explain the difference.
This is a good observation, on both counts. We are kind of back to square one, but that is alright. So far so good. Now let us take the next step: Given that everything we observe in the universe is consistent with the 2LoT, can we take the position that the 2LoT is irrelevant for purposes of explaining the origin of certain systems? No. It does not follow. The 2LoT does not just exist and apply everywhere, it imposes certain restraints, drives in a certain direction, provides us an expected trajectory of events. Otherwise, it would be meaningless. So we can now ask the next logical question: When considering a particular state, are there certain conditions of the 2LoT that have to be dealt with or countered or taken into account in order to achieve that state? Abiogenesis researchers apparently think the answer to this question is "yes." So we can keep pointing out that every state is consistent with the 2LoT, but it does not follow that the 2LoT does not impose constraints or that the 2LoT is irrelevant to determining how a particular state can -- or in the case of origins, was -- achieved. The International Space Station orbiting the Earth is consistent with the Law of Gravity. But we'd better believe the Law of Gravity imposed severe constraints on getting the ISS into orbit. We would never suggest (as some seem to do in the abiogenesis context) that no explanation of how the ISS got to its current location is needed because, hey, both states are consistent with the Law of Gravity.Eric Anderson
March 25, 2015
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Zachriel: Of course it’s relevant. Both states are consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so it takes more than the 2nd law of thermodynamics to explain the difference. Box: How about the sterile needle that pokes a hole in the cell? I really don’t see any relevance of what you are saying. Without the hole, thermodynamics keeps the contents of the cell within its membrane. With the hole, thermodynamics spreads the contents into the test tube. Box: But the parts won’t reassemble into a living cell by natural forces alone Zachriel: No, they won’t. But then again, no one says they should. Box: So what? What is your point? It's a strawman. Cells are posited to be the result of billions of years of evolution, not instantaneous assembly in a test tube.Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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DNA_Jock, where in #352 do I state that the 2nd law is violated? We all seem to agree - even Zachriel agrees #355 and even Curly Howard seems to agree (in #349 he proposes intervention by intelligent agents in order to repair things) - that Humpty Dumpty (see #348) cannot be put back together again; let alone by natural forces. Now my point is very simple: our agreement is based on our general understanding of the 2nd law (see #352). EA: Box, I agree there is something worthwhile in discussing the "underlying principle" or "underlying concept" behind the 2LoT, rather than just the thermal application. If this can be articulated in a way that is clearly understandable, I think it can be a fruitful area of discussion (Sewell has tried (most of his critics misunderstand what his larger point is), but I'm not sure it is quite there yet).Box
March 25, 2015
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// UD moderators: allow me to suggest the deletion of this post and other posts relating to it – #355, #354 and #353 – they serve no other function than to distract and lower the level of discussion. //
What a strange suggestion. The topic of this thread is 2LoT, and the Myths that surround ID arguments, e.g.
Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.
Therefore the fallaciousness of your general understanding of the 2LoT is very much on topic, however much you might want to disavow these statements:
I gather that the second law – as a statistical law – cannot be overcome under materialism. However there is a spiritual realm which organizes matter – thereby overcoming the 2nd law. I hold that this is just what we see around us; as Granville Sewell and others pointed out many times.
life violates the “extended” 2nd law
DNA_Jock
March 25, 2015
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Zachriel: Of course it’s relevant. Both states are consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so it takes more than the 2nd law of thermodynamics to explain the difference.
How about the sterile needle that pokes a hole in the cell? I really don't see any relevance of what you are saying.
Box: But the parts won’t reassemble into a living cell by natural forces alone
Zachriel: No, they won’t. But then again, no one says they should.
So what? What is your point? - - - // UD moderators: allow me to suggest the deletion of this post and other posts relating to it - #355, #354 and #353 - they serve no other function than to distract and lower the level of discussion. //Box
March 25, 2015
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Box: As per usual, irrelevant to the argument that I presented in #352. Of course it's relevant. Both states are consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so it takes more than the 2nd law of thermodynamics to explain the difference. Box: But the parts won’t reassemble into a living cell by natural forces alone No, they won't. But then again, no one says they should.Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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Zachriel: Yet before you poke the needle, the contents stayed within the cell. That’s also consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
As per usual, irrelevant to the argument that I presented in #352.Box
March 25, 2015
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Mung: Thermodynamics can be reformulated in information theory terms, in which “thermo bits” mean the same thing as “info bits.” No. "Two apples" are not the same as "two". Box: I would say our general understanding of the 2nd law. Yet before you poke the needle, the contents stayed within the cell. That's also consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics.Zachriel
March 25, 2015
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Scordova #348, Thank you for the Humpty Dumpty argument. It seems to me that the 2nd law is very relevant to this argument:
If we place a small amount of sterile salt solution in a test tube at just the right temperature and acidity, add a living cell, and then poke a hole in that cell with a sterile needle, the contents will leak out. We will have in our test tube all of the molecules needed for life, in just the right proportions (relative to each other) and already assembled into complex specified DNAs, RNAs, proteins, lipids, and carbohydrates. [ But the parts won’t reassemble into a living cell by natural forces alone ].
What prevents the parts from self-organizing into a living cell? And how do we know? I would say our general understanding of the 2nd law. Under the 2nd law DNA, RNA, proteins and so forth will degenerate and eventually disperse. IOW the content of the test tube will go in the opposite direction of the functional organization of the living cell – due to the 2nd law. Of all the micro- and macrostates possible in the test tube, those constituting a living cell are statistically improbable.Box
March 25, 2015
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Eric
The types of reactions that are and are not thermodynamically favorable under purely natural conditions (remember, no catalysts, no enzymes, no controlled chemical cascades) is a very important issue.
I can understand the 'no enzymes' on a prebiotic Earth but no catalysts? Where does that come from, Eric? Are there no metals (or other inorganic catalysts) present on the prebiotic earth? EA: Good point. Discussed and addressed earlier in the thread.franklin
March 24, 2015
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Actually, Eric, the “substantive” issue that I was addressing was your monumental ignorance of thermodynamics and chemistry, demonstrated by the following statement: EA: DNA_Jock, your attitude is unhelpful for constructive discussion, particularly since you have demonstrated no such thing. What you have demonstrated is that you are so obsessed with the concept that a catalyst speeds a reaction but doesn't "change" the reaction, that you have missed the substantive question: Are there reactions that occur involving a catalyst or a specific chemical cascade that would not reasonably be expected to occur under early Earth conditions without such?
The types of reactions that are and are not thermodynamically favorable under purely natural conditions (remember, no catalysts, no enzymes, no controlled chemical cascades) is a very important issue.
Eric twists in the wind:
DNA_Jock @318: We go to the google search link you provided and what do we see? The very first entry on the list defines “thermodynamically favorable” as follows: “meaning it has a reasonable likelihood of proceeding.” Seems like there has been a lot of sound and fury for nothing. (Of course we still haven’t even talked about larger chemical cascades, which was also part of my sentence to Piotr.) Now shall we keep beating this red herring, or do you want to address the substantive issue all this relates to, per the OP: spontaneous formation of a living system under early Earth conditions?
Touchingly cute. But the full quote is:
If the DG is negative, meaning the products are at a lower energy than the reactants, then the reaction is thermodynamically favorable, meaning it has a reasonable likelihood of proceeding. The DG does not indicate how fast this reaction will happen.
So, given the universally accepted definition of “thermodynamically favorable” as “delta-G is negative”, would you now care to answer the pop quiz questions, viz:
1) Can a catalyst change whether a reaction is thermodynamically favorable? 2) Can an enzyme?
DNA_Jock
March 24, 2015
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Id argue that if we could get the membrane to reform and then were able to physically replace every molecule back into the cell, then we could put humpty dumpty back together.Curly Howard
March 24, 2015
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Thanks for the thoughts. A follow-up question: We would all agree, presumably, that something like a bacterial flagellum arising spontaneously from a chemical soup on the early Earth is not going to happen. Why is that? In other words, if you were explaining to a young student or a newcomer to the debate why you think it would not happen, what would you say (in plain English, sans special terminology, dense calculations, etc.)?
I'd appeal to the Humpty Dumpty argument (which is more general than the flagellum). I will never forget in 2005, one of the world’s top origin of life researchers, Dr. Robert Hazen, at my undergraduate alma mater George Mason University, angrily protested at an intelligent design lecture I organized for Jonathan Wells. Dr. Hazen stood up and accused Dr. Wells of promoting religion. Dr. Wells calmly smiled and responded by posing the following observation to Dr. Hazen in front of the students and faculty (an observation which he has often repeated to others):
If we place a small amount of sterile salt solution in a test tube at just the right temperature and acidity, add a living cell, and then poke a hole in that cell with a sterile needle, the contents will leak out. We will have in our test tube all of the molecules needed for life, in just the right proportions (relative to each other) and already assembled into complex specified DNAs, RNAs, proteins, lipids, and carbohydrates. But we will not be able to make a living cell out of them. We cannot put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
Dr. Hazen just stood there speechless, turning red before he stormed out of the room. To his credit a few weeks later he praised Dr. Wells at another student meeting. But Wells' insight left a lasting impression on me. Many of my ID arguments are just technical elaborations (chemistry, math, cybernetics, etc.) of the Humpty Dumpty argument. The Humpty Dumpty argument was also good enough for one of the world's top chemists and nano-engineers, James Tour.scordova
March 24, 2015
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Thermodynamics can be reformulated in information theory terms, in which "thermo bits" mean the same thing as "info bits." Meanwhile, my @329 awaits a response. Feel free to take a stab at it tabasco. I am presenting nothing new here. What I say has been known for years. Decades even.
Herbert Bernard Callen was an American physicist best known as the author of the textbook Thermodynamics and an Introduction to Thermostatistics, the most frequently cited thermodynamic reference in physics research literature.
Mung
March 24, 2015
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Eric, to Zachriel:
But it does not follow, as you seem to be implying, that the 2LoT cannot be relevant to either (a) design arguments, or (b) critiques of abiogenesis. Please don’t try to apply tabasco’s very narrow point a bridge too far.
Eric, That's why I eagerly await your response to my #319:
Eric, in the OP:
Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy. Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy.
Eric, Please state the 2nd Law in terms of informational entropy, and then in terms of organizational entropy, and provide references to the literature. [Emphasis added]
Then we can apply it to design and abiogenesis.tabasco
March 24, 2015
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Eric,
tabasco’s point is relevant (and correct) in terms of pointing out that not all ID arguments need involve the 2LoT (most of them don’t, and we’re all happy with that fact).
Box and niwrad aren't. Box:
1. The 2nd law deals with probable and improbable states. 2. Functional organization implies improbable states. 3. Therefor the 2nd law (also) deals with functional organization.
niwrad:
functional organization has a lot to do with the 2nd law of statistical mechanics, because this field deals with probable and improbable states.
tabasco
March 24, 2015
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Niwrad #340, that is excellent news, I'll be sitting front row! :)Box
March 24, 2015
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We would all agree, presumably, that something like a bacterial flagellum arising spontaneously from a chemical soup on the early Earth is not going to happen.
I would emphatically agree with that. What use would a bacterial flagellum be to a chemical soup? EA: Let the discussion go with Sal where it is going. If you are willing to approach things with an open mind as regards abiogenesis and the possible applicability of the 2LoT to that issue, it could even be interesting.Piotr
March 24, 2015
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#335 Box, "Improbable" in what sense? As opposed to thermodynamic equilibrium in a volume of gas, "functional organisation" can only be reached via a long stepwise process (in which every consecutive step may be quite probable). Do you know how to calculate and interpret sequential probabilities? Do you recall Dawkins's metaphor of Mount Improbable? My simple challenge remains unanswered. Why are you guys so shy (or so evasive) if everybody here is an expert on entropy/probability/organisation? Hey, I see that Eric Anderson has added a comment to my post #121:
EA: Piotr, though not directed at me, I would note that your challenge is pointless, as it has no basis in reality. At least you started it with “let’s imagine . . .” That part is true.
Oh, come on, Eric. You couldn't be more wrong. The exercise I propose, while somewhat idealised for the sake of clearer exposition, is entirely realistic. If the generation period were shorter (say, a couple of days rather than one year), my hypothetical organisms would correspond rather closely to, say, Escherichia coli in various respects. What really amazes me is that although the problem is not complicated, and hardly original (to be honest, it's a variant of something discussed by others before me), nobody seems to have the vaguest idea how to approach it. I don't demand a rigorous solution -- we are talking informally. Some ballpark estimates would suffice, as long as you know how to get them. EA: The primary problem with your example, is that it doesn't address any of the points at issue. Who is arguing that there isn't enough "flux of entropy on Earth sufficient to allow for such a decrease"? Look back at myths #2 and #3. I'm happy to stipulate that there is sufficient "flux of entropy on Earth". So what? It most certainly does not show "how life beats low probabilities." It doesn't show anything. It is an exercise in irrelevance.Piotr
March 24, 2015
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Eric The very fact that Zachriel is so active in defence in our threads about the 2nd law is proof that he feels this argument as very dangerous for evolution. And he is right! (probably the unique time he is :) ).niwrad
March 24, 2015
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Box I have always problems with Zachriel but I am glad that at least you always understand me. :) Maybe next Sunday or Monday I will release my next article on the 2nd law, according to your wise "approach". Stay tuned. ;)niwrad
March 24, 2015
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Eric Anderson: Please don’t try to apply tabasco’s very narrow point a bridge too far. As Box and niwrad's recent comments make clear, there is still some confusion on the matter. Eric Anderson: The fact that not all arguments against abiogenesis involve the 2LoT certainly doesn’t mean that none of them can. Sure. If those arguments are ever made, then those can be addressed at that time.Zachriel
March 24, 2015
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