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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
Piotr More on Cause and effect for you; http://www.neutonus-reformatus.de/download/dellian_newtonian_causality.pdfAndre
March 18, 2015
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Piotr I can agree that the formulation of the law of casualty is very difficult but if you want to know do some research on Laplace...... http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/hedjar/Documents/CEN340/Laplace%20Transform-Cont.pdfAndre
March 18, 2015
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Kairosfocus: Whatever mode you are in is a matter for you. Just to put the matter on "the record" as you often say, why is KeithS banned from commenting at this site?timothya
March 18, 2015
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CJY, 73: good concerns. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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#91 Andre, Please enlighten me and others: what's the physical formulation of the Law of Causality?Piotr
March 18, 2015
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Poitr You do know what science is right? It is the practice to understand and learn what cause what....Andre
March 18, 2015
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F/N: Those puzzled by Piotr's dismissiveness on causality are right to trip a red flag. For, despite all sorts of argument to the contrary, causality is antecedent to the possibility of doing science; as a logical-rational basis. Given the link of causality to weak investigatory forms of the principle of sufficient reason, e.g.:
[PSR, weak form:] Of any particular thing A that is [. . . or (ii) is possible, or even (iii) is impossible], we may ask, why it is [. . . or (ii') why it is possible, or (iii') why it is impossible], and we may expect -- or at least hope -- to find a reasonable answer. Of course, for any given case, X, we may simply directly proceed to ask why is X so, or why is X possible or why is X impossible, and seek a reasonable answer. So, the weak form as it stands is unobjectionable . . . . We thus see by definite and instructive example [such as pondering how a fire comes about, is sustained and ceases] , the principle of cause and effect. That is, [d'] if something has a beginning or may cease from being -- or, generally it is contingent -- it has a cause. Common-sense rationality, decision-making and science alike are founded on this principle of right reason: if an event happens, why -- and, how? If something begins or ceases to exist, why and how? If something is sustained in existence, what factors contribute to, promote or constrain that effect or process, how? The answers to these questions are causes. Without the reality behind the concept of cause the very idea of laws of nature would make no sense: events would happen anywhere, anytime, with no intelligible reason or constraint. As a direct result, neither rationality nor responsibility would be possible; all would be a confused, unintelligible, unpredictable, uncontrollable chaos with nothing having a stable existence or identity . . .
. . . the dismissal of causality and cause-effect bonds is tantamount to a rejection of rationality in science. Which should have a very familiar ring to it in light of say Haldane's observation on the self referential incoherence of evolutionary materialism as undermining mind:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Cf here for Pearcey's update.)]
Evo mat activists have a LOT of explaining to do. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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Poitr If the law of causality was philosophical as you presume it to be then science would be of no use. It is only people with a materialistic agenda that deny causality. Fixed it for you denier.Andre
March 18, 2015
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TA feel free to comment but keep away from trollish tactics such as led me to close that thread. But understand that I am no longer in a mode of action that presumes reasonable dialogue on the merits of actual fact, reason and prudence. For cause. KF PS: I should note I inserted a little test in 123 in the previous thread, that seems to have been failed on one or more of several possible levels. That, was a key part of my turning point.kairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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PS: RDW caught my eye with an excellent catch:
Piotr: “feeding only on a minuscule fraction of the usable energy available on Earth” RDW: And how does this feeding mechanism which can acquire and direct this minuscule energy to generate increased complexity come into existence? Can anyone point to any process outside of biology where very complex functional systems self-organize themselves needing only some matter in the presence of external energy?
Yes, there are many orders of magnitude differences in energy flow level and entropy number values between microscale configs to give FSCO/I and something like melting an ice cube. That is interesting, but has been pointed to all along in say the Wiki clip on informational entropy cired in the just linked. Likewise, the energy expended at CERN to achieve tiny energy scale particle transactions is utterly out of proportion . . . I would not like to sign CERN's energy bill cheques! . . . but such is besides the point and serves only to distract focus from what is pivotal. Namely, just taking the toy case of 1,000 coins in a string, we have 1.07*10^301 possible configs, with an utterly dominant peak around the 50-50 H:T point. If coins flip at random, there will be a strong statistical trend to move to the dominant cluster of near 50-50 distribution in no particular special order, gibberish-noise in effect. But, there are in that config space all sorts of ASCII code text strings such as the 1st 143 characters of this post etc. But given the statistics of such a toy, mobilising the entire observed cosmos' atoms to try to blindly look for such needle in haystack configs would only allow 10^111 configs. That sounds like a lot until one compares 10^301, 190 orders of magnitude beyond. Turning the first into a straw, the comparative haystack would dwarf the observed cosmos. As in, pick a straw sized sample from such a stack blindly. Next to no search, no plausible reason to expect to be able to find anything but the bulk, gibberish. That is what is being obfuscated. Similarly trying to get rid of the stack by putting us down at a convenient location on or next to an island of function then calling up hill-climbing begs the question of getting to the shores of such islands. Search for golden search comes from the set of subsets of the config space of size W, i.e. from a higher order space of scale 2^W, where W for our toy is 1.07*10^301. Calculator smoking territory, as has repeatedly been pointed out but of course ignored or dismissed. That pattern strongly reminds me of how Marxist activists c 1980 used to behave, and I will draw an analogy and make some projections on it. On track record of ideologically indoctrinated, polarised agenda activists, expect this sort of questioning of their doctrine to be studiously ignored (per a notorious tactic in Wilson's The Arte of Rhetorique . . . ) or subjected to the trifecta fallacy: red herring distractors, led to strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems and set alight rhetorically to cloud, confuse, poison and polarise the atmosphere. Let's see if that projection can be falsified . . . but RDW, don't hold your breath a-waiting.kairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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Kairosfocus said this: "FYI-FTR: I have promoted and augmented some remarks in 123 in the energy audit thread to an OP insert, regarding the obviously largely ignored or dismissed but inextricably involved statistical underpinnings of 2LOT and implications for the massive constructive work and FSCO/I involved in OOL. As a bonus, I have added clips on a longstanding summary of the OOL challenge and the exchange of mutual ruin between Shapiro and Orgel on metabolism vs RNA world type models: https://uncommondescent.com.....it-police/ I note, again, FYI-FTR. KF" Comments have been disabled on that thread. Where should I comment on your contribution? It appears that KeithS is now banned from contributing to this website. Can anyone explain why?timothya
March 18, 2015
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Andre:
do I have to remind you that the law of causality is the bedrock of science?
Is it? Causation is a heuristically useful notion in science, but the whole concept is philosophical rather than purely scientific, and I only ever hear of "the law of causality" from people with a religious agenda trying to deploy the hoary "First Cause" argument. There is no such law in physics.Piotr
March 18, 2015
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As Andre has pointed out, there are only two possibilities for OOL...
Umm... no. Andre said something incoherent about the origin of the Universe, without mentioning life at all.
Your faith in materialist evolution is also an “evolution of the gaps” argument...
Nope. Science tries to fill in the gaps; religion worships them.Piotr
March 18, 2015
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FYI-FTR: I have promoted and augmented some remarks in 123 in the energy audit thread to an OP insert, regarding the obviously largely ignored or dismissed but inextricably involved statistical underpinnings of 2LOT and implications for the massive constructive work and FSCO/I involved in OOL. As a bonus, I have added clips on a longstanding summary of the OOL challenge and the exchange of mutual ruin between Shapiro and Orgel on metabolism vs RNA world type models: https://uncommondescent.com/molecular-animations/piotr-and-ks-dna_jock-vs-et-al-and-compensation-arguments-vs-the-energy-audit-police/ I note, again, FYI-FTR. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2015
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Piotr @ 77 Can't let that Divine foot in the door, can we? As Andre has pointed out, there are only two possibilities for OOL and the truly scientific approach would be not to discount one out of hand, if, as you say, you don't know yet. Your faith in materialist evolution is also an "evolution of the gaps" argument, ie. we don't know how we got from dead chemicals to reproducing life but materialist/evolution must be the answer. CheersCross
March 18, 2015
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Piotr
But entities capable of complicating their organisation further and further thanks to replication and differential survival (using low-entropy energy sources) are life by definition.
LOL!!!! Do you actually believe this drivel? How on earth can you trust your mind and say this is correct? Evidence? Has it been tested? Perhaps you are far more religious than what you would like to admit.....Andre
March 18, 2015
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Piotr Whether we are talking about creation of a universe ex nihilo or life ex nihilo, the same principle applies, nothing in this universe can be its own cause, it violates the law of causality and do I have to remind you that the law of causality is the bedrock of science?Andre
March 17, 2015
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#78, Of course tranfers of energy produce a lot of structure everywhere in the Universe, from subatomic scales to galaxy superclusters. But entities capable of complicating their organisation further and further thanks to replication and differential survival (using low-entropy energy sources) are life by definition.Piotr
March 17, 2015
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#79 Andre, You are now seguing from the origin of life on Earth to the beginning of the Universe -- events separated by ten billion years. This thread is supposed to be about abiogenesis, life, and the 2LOT, not the Big Bang. If you have nothing intelligent to say about the topic, you can just stay silent.Piotr
March 17, 2015
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Piotr We have two options, either the universe created itself or a creator did it, since we know empirically that for anything to be its own cause it has to exist before it existed, we can rule out spontaneous creation because we know its illogical and impossible for anything to be its own cause. We thus have one option left, The universe was created by a creator, now please do pray tell how that is a god of the gaps argument? should we give you more time to keep running your illogical fools errand?Andre
March 17, 2015
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@piotr #63 "feeding only on a minuscule fraction of the usable energy available on Earth" And how does this feeding mechanism which can acquire and direct this minuscule energy to generate increased complexity come into existence? Can anyone point to any process outside of biology where very complex functional systems self-organize themselves needing only some matter in the presence of external energy?RalphDavidWestfall
March 17, 2015
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Finally an admission.
That we don't (yet) know something? It normal in science.
So, God could have done it, right?
Yes, the god of the gaps.Piotr
March 17, 2015
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39 kairosfocus March 17, 2015 at 8:52 am Sparc, he obviously was there first, on record in NFL; though Orgel and Wicken were first of all, he cites Orgel. I worked from Orgel, Wicken and Thaxton et al. Your attempted inquisition is simply showing you to be determined to find any objection you can to dismiss something that is a directly observable common reality. A reality that routinely traces to design and which happens to be there in copious quantities in the cell and life forms generally. FSCO/I is real, get over it. KF PS: Oops this is in a cross thread situation, I cited WmAD on FSCO/I in extenso from NFL here at 131 in the Piotr etc thresd: https://uncommondescent.com.....ent-554393
I am aware that you cite Dembski again and again. But did Dembski ever reacted to your ideas? Did he ever talk to you? And what about Behe, Johnson, Meyer, Luskin? FSCO/I didn't make it in any of theit books or even posts at EN&V. You really must be ahead of times.sparc
March 17, 2015
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Piotr @ 63 "we don’t know how life originated" Finally an admission. So, God could have done it, right? CheersCross
March 17, 2015
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All, apologies for starting the thread and not being able to participate actively due to other commitments the last day. I will try to read through the comments in the next 24-48 hours.Eric Anderson
March 17, 2015
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I see I am a little late to the party, but I couldn`t resist a `quick` comment given the responses to the subject matter. I hope I can help provide some clarification from my point of view. Due to time constraints, I will probably have to withdraw back to lurking after this. 2 scenarios: 1. There exists a pile of wooden beams and a pile of nails. A carpenter proceeds to organize the pile of wood and nails into a doghouse. Not horribly far from equilibrium, but definitely moving away from equilibrium. Of course 2LOT isn't violated. From what I understand, the heat released by the carpenter as well as all friction created, etc, etc, leaves no unaccounted balance of energy for the movement of the beams and nails into their respective positions. It's all good. 2. The same pile of wooden beams and nails. No carpenter this time. We can have as much energy flow from the sun, as much flow towards equilibrium elsewhere as we want, and no sane person would expect to see the pile of wooden beams and nails configure themselves into a well organized doghouse. And for those so desperate for rhetorical points who might obfuscate with, ``but there is no scientific way to determine a functional difference between a tunnel under the pile that provides shelter verses an actual doghouse`` may I suggest either for this argument you focus on the configuration of the doghouse or just replace the doghouse with a car, the carpenter with a bunch of carpenters, and the wood and nails with ... you get the point ... So the idea of 'compensation with a greater trend to equilibrium elsewhere' does nothing in this specific case. Why? Why can't we just rely on thermal flow to produce this specific case of organization? Obviously, thermal energy has been accounted for in both scenarios and there is no violation of 2LOT, just as a flying airplane does not violate the law of gravity. But merely pointing out that there exists either sufficient energy flow and/or sufficient disorganization elsewhere does nothing to explain how this specific instance of organization in a direction away from equilibrium came about. Is there a proximate cause we are missing just as a specific structure at a certain acceleration generating lift is required to compensate for gravity rather than just spouting a truism that nothing can violate the law of gravity so obviously everything is ok. The point to the whole 'violation' semantic is that IF a large couple tonne chunk of metal suddenly started flying around with no properly understood compensation for gravity AND the reason given was that as long as something as heavy was falling down elsewhere or that there are heavier planets above the earths atmosphere so there is obviously no violation of the law of gravity then, to someone who knew a thing or two about gravity, it would definitely APPEAR as if the chunk of metal was violating the law of gravity GIVEN the incorrect compensation argument. Let me explain further. Even taking unguided abiogenesis and evolution for granted, which would allow us to directly connect energy from the sun over vast amounts of time to the organization of the doghouse, we find that there is more to the picture than merely energy flow. Energy must flow first to create a self-replicating robot much more complex and in a state many orders of magnitude further from equilibrium than the doghouse. This self replicating robot must be flexible enough to evolve - the available search space for the evolution of it's code and hardware given its starting software and hardware must allow millions of years of evolution. These millions of years of evolution must create a secondary CPU within the previous system that is capable of modeling its surroundings and generating internal plans for the doghouse which are used to control actuators that build the doghouse. So, we are stuck in a loop. Why not just bet on the sun whipping up a doghouse in the first place? You have all the energy from the sun required for 'compensation.' The doghouse is much closer to equilibrium and the energy required to compensate is also much less than the energy required to evolve the self replicating robot that built it. If there is any connection at all between equilibrium, disorganization, and 2LOT then this is definitely a 2LOT problem. It appears that is exactly what OOL researches are looking for -- The self-organizing cycles that are not extremely improbable given realistic conditions and energy flows that compensate for 2LOT (if indeed 2LOT has anything to do with equilibrium and disorganization) in the generation of extremely organized and far from equilibrium machines and codes. How is this different than discovering how structure and acceleration produce lift to compensate for the law of gravity? Let's not confound the fact that there must be compensation with lazy pronouncements that any energy transfer will provide the required compensation. This appears to be the point of every ID proponent that I've read who has had a say in this matter. So, the question still remains. How do some systems travel in an extended direction far from equilibrium at seemingly insurmountable odds while still following 2LOT. Actually, this is more a question of how does such a system arise and continue to evolve, since there is no problem with the thermodynamics of the already functional self-repair and cellular replication which keeps the system going. Where is the 2LOT compensation in the generation of such a system? As far as I can tell, the only way that this question and point of 'violation' is moot is if it can be shown that 2LOT has nothing to do with any directional flow to or from equilibrium and that directions to or from equilibrium have nothing to do with disorganization as it relates to the probability of states. If this is indeed the case, of which I am not yet convinced, then we will still need to find that factor which allows highly improbable organization to reach far from equilibrium states since mere energy flow (not specifically guided) is apparently not up to the task either theoretically or experimentally. Refer to the above 2 scenarios. Then, it just wouldn't be a 2LOT issue. However, in this case, if it were not a 2LOT issue then the defenders would not need to provide any compensation argument referencing the flow of energy from the sun. We'll see ... Just so I don't have to spell it out again, 'violation' in this argument is not an actual violation; it is merely a rhetorical tool akin to Schrodinger's cat. It is more of a paradox -- in a sense it is an apparent violation given the available energy flow compensation argument.CJYman
March 17, 2015
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If the search exceeds the "observed cosmos scale time and atomic resources" of the universe, how the heck can a "molecular nanotech lab" that is part of that universe accomplish the search? EA: REC, you have been around the block enough to know better. This is a complete red herring. The distinction that is drawn is between blind search and intelligent search.REC
March 17, 2015
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General: At this point it is pretty clear that there is no serious responsiveness from several objectors, so some quick remarks for onlookers, just to point some hints . . . DNA_jock, You first have some trolling games and manners issues to resolve. Second you are showing yourself a snip-snipe strawman artist. Let me give some context, including a calc from Bradley:
I must insist we start from OOL, as this is what allows us to understand the problem most clearly. We need to get to a gated, encapsulated metabolising cell with an integral von Neumann self replicator. That is what is empirically relevant and observed. When you can show empirically actual other architectures of biological life and how they bridge to what we see, then that would become relevant. In that context, we note that there are hundreds of proteins at minimum needed (including enzymes), and tha the causal chain runs: D/RNA –> Ribosome + tRNAs etc –> AA chain, adjustments and folding, agglomeration –> biofunction There is no pattern where functional configs can cause changes to codes ahead of time so they can come into existence. Nor, given sparseness of fold-function protein string clusters in AA space, is there a credible warrant for a simple stepping stones incremental pattern across hundreds of relevant proteins. Nor, does functionally specific, complex organisation leading to interactive coupling and function come about for free. Of course, one may go back-ways and look from functioning proteins and impose a priori evolutionary materialism constraints and think that assessing info content on the basic facts of freedom of chaining, is dismissible. But, I wold think that it is not unreasonable to look at that basic point first. Where, for instance, Shannon himself used the counting of possibilities in a chain as an information metric in that famous 1948 paper. That is, it is not inherently unreasonable or shoddy to look at a state in a set of possibilities, and ask, how many structured y/n questions in a context can be used to specify the state form other possibilities, and to reckon this an information metric. Where one may go on to assess relative symbol frequencies and make adjustments on H = -SUM pi log pi, etc. And by using a suitable dummy variable one may warrant that the information metric is functional and specific based on observations. Functionality of configured complex entities is commonly observed in all sorts of settings. Here is Bradley of the original team with Thaxton who about 20 years ago presented the following (I clip from App A my always linked, where it has been for years) to the ASA:
Cytochrome c (protein) — chain of 110 amino acids of 20 types If each amino acid has pi = .05 [--> per front end chaining chemistry not after the fact chains that are seen as functioning and variations on the same fundamental protein], then average information “i” per amino acid is given by log2 (20) = 4.32 The total Shannon information is given by I = N * i = 110 * 4.32 = 475, with total number of unique sequences “W0” that are possible is W0 = 2^I = 2^475 = 10^143 Amino acids in cytochrome c are not equiprobable (pi =/= 0.05) as assumed above. If one takes the actual probabilities of occurrence of the amino acids in cytochrome c [--> thus an after the fact functional context in which the real world dynamic-stochastic process has been run through whatever real degree of common descent has happened], one may calculate the average information per residue (or link in our 110 link polymer chain) to be 4.139 using i = – SUM pi log2 pi [--> the familiar result] Total Shannon information is given by I = N * i = 4.139 x 110 = 455. The total number of unique sequences “W0” that are possible for the set of amino acids in cytochrome c is given by W0 = 2^455 = 1.85 x 10^137 . . . . Some amino acid residues (sites along chain) allow several different amino acids to be used interchangeably in cytochrome-c without loss of function, reducing i from 4.19 to 2.82 and I (i x 110) from 475 to 310 (Yockey) [--> again, after the fact of variations across the world of life to today,the real world Monte Carlo runs I spoke of] M = 2^310 = 2.1 x 10^93 = W1 Wo / W1 = 1.85 x 10^137 / 2.1 x 10^93 = 8.8 x 10^44 Recalculating for a 39 amino acid racemic prebiotic soup [as Glycine is achiral] he then deduces (appar., following Yockey): W1 is calculated to be 4.26 x 10^62 Wo/W1 = 1.85 x 10^137 / 4.26 x 10^62 = 4.35 x 10^74 ICSI = log2 (4.35 x 10^74) = 248 bits He then compares results from two experimental studies: Two recent experimental studies on other proteins have found the same incredibly low probabilities for accidental formation of a functional protein that Yockey found 1 in 10^75 (Strait and Dewey, 1996) and 1 in 10^65 (Bowie, Reidhaar-Olson, Lim and Sauer, 1990).
Now, we are actually dealing with hundreds of proteins from various families to make a living cell. In aggregate, the adjustments just seen in a simple case [--> by Bradley], do not make any material difference, the overall FSCO/I in a living cell, or just in the whole protein synthesis system is well beyond any reasonable reach of a blind watchmaker search process on the gamut of our observed cosmos. [--> note, for the set of proteins etc, similar to a quick rough calc with impossibly generous terms that came up with 10,000 bits of FSCO/I easily/] The only empirically warranted cause of FSCO/I is design. And FSCO/I is not after the fact target painting [just derange organisation a bit and see function vanish], it is as common as text in languages, or computer programs or gears in a train or wiring diagram based function at all sorts of scales from cell metabolism to petroleum refineries. It is readily observable and recognisable, and it is readily seen that reliably it is caused by design when we can directly see cause. So, per vera causa we are well warranted to infer it as a reliable sign of design. So, much of the above objectionism towards the design view is a case of straining at gnats while swallowing camels: selective hyperskepticism about what one is disinclined to accept multiplied by hypercredulity on any rays of faint hope for what is desired given the a priori evolutionary materialism and fellow travellers dominant in science and science education. Now, let me turn to that shoddy math by an IDiot, so-called. First, information can be quantified by reasonable metrics, as a commonplace of information theory and practice, including counting chains of y/n q’s in a structured context, which is of course a bit value. (If you doubt me then kindly explain how AutoCAD works in terms of describing a configuration in a bit based file structure.) Multiply by a dummy variable that certifies warrant on functional specificity dependent on config relative to available alternatives. For practical purposes we can look at the possibilities and count them element by element, or we may if we wish modify based on how symbols appear in proportion after the fact. Makes little practical difference to the overall result. Then, use a threshold that makes sparse search constrained by atomic resources, here sol system, maximally implausible: Chi_500 = I*S – 500, functionally specific bits beyond a sol system threshold of blind search I is an info metric, S the warranting dummy variable, 500 bits the threshold, and if Chi_500 goes positive it is implausible that on the gamut of sol system, something with FSCO/I came about by blind mechanisms. Instead, the best explanation is intelligently directed configuration, aka design. Remember, we are aggregating hundreds of proteins. Let’s take the Cy-C after the fact value and round down to 100 bits. Multiply by say 100. 10,000 bits. [--> 10 kbits again] Well past 500 bits or even the 1,000 for the observable cosmos. Also, let’s look at codes, which appear in strings -*-*-*- . . ., which are a linear node-arc pattern. These are therefore a subset of FSCO/I. The DNA codes for the proteins run at 3 x 4-state letters per AA codon. Six bits nominal, if we want to adjust by the halved Cy-C result, we are at about one bit per AA, 1/6 bit per base. In aggregate, we are looking at again, well past the limit. And while it is now a favourite pastime to try to pick holes in Dembski’s 2005 metric model, I suggest again that if one simply reduced the logs, it is an info beyond a threshold metric. And, the probability that has become the focal point for objections of all sorts is an information value based on whatever happened in the real world with reasonable enough likelihood to be material. I suggest that info values from direct inspection of chains and possible states, or from working though a version of SUM pi log pi on observing the range of functional states in the world of life will make but little difference in the end, to the result. Especially given the island of function pattern imposed by multiple part interactive relevant function. [--> again, in the context of aggregating across 100's of proteins in a functional system] If you cannot tell the difference between a pile of bricks and a functional castle — as has happened here at UD in recent weeks — then there is a problem here.
Snip, wrench, snipe. Piotr, Kindly see what you said and why I therefore responded. You dismissed "Creation" by setting up and knocking over a strawman and failing to address the thing I actually set on the table, a molecular nanotech lab some generations beyong Venter et al. As well, I find that you and others seem deaf to the problem of relevant energy fluxes to create FSCO/I. Statistical miracles to create the functional organisation of life are a serious issue. And, one connected directly to the underpinnings of 2LOT. But then, at this point, I don't think there has been a serious meeting of minds, mostly a projection of caricatures on your side backed up by a refusal to attend to any corrective. KS, you know the problem is to start in Darwin's pond and the like -- where there is no reproduction to use as a shield -- then account for origin of life. More broadly, the root challenge is to get to islands of function before you can appeal to incremental hill climbing. Where the specific, interactive function sharply constrains possible configs. As to the notion that mebbe some other architecture will work, the core challenge is that observed cosmos scale time and atomic resources simply cannot bring up a significant search of config spaces significantly different from effectively no search. Too little search. ____________ But, at this point, it is a waste of time and effort to try to go over what has already been cogently pointed out but insistently ignored or even snipped, sniped and caricatured. Were I in some of your shoes, I would be more concerned as to what you are revealing about how you respond to issues, facts, reason and people you disagree with, given the radical relativism and inherent amorality of the evolutionary materialist view. Now, RW things press very hard, so later I will act on what I have been forced to conclude. Responding to ruthless faction tactics requires a different approach; as in the old days of dealing with committed and ruthless Marxist agitators. KF KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2015
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Collin: Thanks. Now I understand it all because you said, “chemistry.” Collin: The Sun has had an abundance of high order energy for billions of years. Why no life on the Sun? Similarly, Venus, the moon, Jupiter etc. Why no life? You already rejected the answer out of hand. Collin: It doesn’t satisfy me when people say that there is no liquid water in those locations. So what? Life is based on organic chemistry. The Sun is too hot. The moon is too dry.Zachriel
March 17, 2015
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Zach, Thanks. Now I understand it all because you said, "chemistry." It's like when a puppy says, "Because bacon" and the argument is clearly over.Collin
March 17, 2015
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