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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
#64, niwrad, Unwise, you say? Do you want me to show what "unwise" looks like?Piotr
March 17, 2015
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Kf, When I stated (on the thread you closed) that
Every time you do one of these [redacted] calculations, you assume that the identity of each amino acid in the protein is independent of the identity of the other AAs. You might (on one of your good days) admit that this is inaccurate, but you always assert that the error is “immaterial”.
Which you “annotated”
[--> this remark is basically just made up out of whole cloth.
This is false. I refer you to your comment, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-driven-by-laws-not-random-mutations/#comment-526771 specifically
In aggregate, the adjustments just seen in a simple case, do not make any material difference, the overall FSCO/I in a living cell, or just in the whole protein synthesis system is well beyond any reasonable reach of a blind watchmaker search process on the gamut of our observed cosmos.
And my response, https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/evolution-driven-by-laws-not-random-mutations/#comment-526864
So, even using the sequences of extant proteins as the source data (which is inappropriate if we wish to understand the early evolution of a protein) we find that the reduction-in-uncertainty per residue drops two-fold when any attempt is made to try to account for correlation. Therefore, blithely asserting that the lack of independence is ‘not material’ is going to require some real data to support it. Of course to address this issue properly, you are going to have to also deal with the subject of my discussion with gpuccio: selection.
Issues which you have yet to address.DNA_Jock
March 17, 2015
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niwrad, Entropy is not "disorder" or "non-organization". I suggested some remedial reading to Granville. Perhaps you would also benefit:
Here’s some remedial reading for you: Disorder—A Cracked Crutch for Supporting Entropy Discussions An excerpt:
Entropy is not disorder. Entropy is not a measure of disorder or chaos. Entropy is not a driving force. Energy’s diffusion, dissipation, or dispersion in a final state compared to an initial state is the driving force in chemistry. Entropy is the index of that dispersal within a system and between the system and its surroundings.
keith s
March 17, 2015
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Piotr In my previous post I explained why energy feed is counterproductive to unguide evolution. Energy speeds the processes. But since the processes go towards the more probable states, uncontrolled energy, far from helping evolution, it even worsens its problems, because accelerates the trend towards non-organization of the 2nd law. It is unwise for you to invoke energy flux.niwrad
March 17, 2015
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Indeed, KF's entire FSCO/I shtick is to ignore cumulative selection entirely in his "calculations". Piotr, to KF:
Do you know why Boltzmann admired Darwin so much? He immediately saw that natural selection could trick entropy and reach extremely (and I mean extremely extremely) improbable states without violating the second law, and feeding only on a minuscule fraction of the usable energy available on Earth. If you understand it too, you’ll never again dream of invoking 2LOT to justify creationism or intelligent design. [Emphasis added]
'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.keith s
March 17, 2015
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KF, What the heck are you talking about? What Darwin's pond? In the other thread I invited you, for the sake of the argument, to assume that life, together with all the basic proteins, was created by God a few billion years ago. That's because we don't know how life originated, but we know pretty well what happened next, and why. Please stop talking about the statistical underpinnings of 2LOT if you can't carry out the basic calculations. Do you know why Boltzmann admired Darwin so much? He immediately saw that natural selection could trick entropy and reach extremely (and I mean extremely extremely) improbable states without violating the second law, and feeding only on a minuscule fraction of the usable energy available on Earth. If you understand it too, you'll never again dream of invoking 2LOT to justify creationism or intelligent design.Piotr
March 17, 2015
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Piotr, I see a strawman snip-snipe above. I have pointed out that a 300 AA protein in Darwin's pond or the like is looking at . . . generously (we include free chaining of any of 20 AAs with any other but leave out chirality, cross reactions, non-peptide bonds, hydrolysis and other means of degradation such as lightning, etc) . . . 4.32 bits per AA to be formed by blind chance and mechanical necessity. The info capacity is 1296 bits, well beyond the 1,000 bit FSCO/I blind search threshold for the observed cosmos. We cannot credibly expect a single such protein to form spontaneously in the life of our cosmos. Just as the same resources and time could not plausibly by blind search hit on the text for the first 143 ASCII characters of your post. But, an intelligence running a nano-tech lab with something like an artificial ribosome and control tape who knows the chem and can compute folding, could. As a simplistic scenario. Design, after all is modifying organisms as we speak -- as has been repeatedly pointed out with Venter called as a specific name but obviously pointedly ignored in the rush to set up and knock over Creationist strawmen targets. You have also failed to report and respond to the fact that in the thread you just clipped, I have repeatedly said I think within 100 years we will be there, triggering Industrial Revolution 3.0 after the C18 and late C19/early C20 waves. With industrial transformation and solar system colonisation in prospect. I again point you to the statistical underpinnings of 2LOT and the implications of the bridge to FSCO/I generation, where something as silly as trying to pretend that melting a few ice cubes answers to the functional organisation challenge, needs to be seriously faced. Compensating energy flows need to be relevant, constructive work-wise, to the FSCO/I to be generated. They are going to have energy converters, waste energy and entropy rises that will compensate, but that is different utterly from hoping to get constructive work to create needed FSCO/I from diffusion etc, in the teeth of the overwhelming evidence of the search space needle in haystack challenge. G'day gotta go to a meeting NOW, KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2015
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Mr. Keith. and to whom it may concern, I'm a younger man, learning my way through these arguments. I have been visiting this site for quite some time and have learned much from both sides. I scroll through the site and I keep seeing a recurring name "keith s " attached with a nasty atittude (you aren't the only one). Here I will be , reading thoughtful responses from either side and you chime in with vain rhetoric , snarky one-liners, and an attitude that doesn't radiate intellect or grace. You are distracting and not in a way that brings forth delight. You also have this unfailing ability to turn any subject into demands that people answer your questions, which they have done. You don't like their answers then claim they haven't dealt with your "arguments", then seemingly claim victory. It's rabid. You'll go into threads post a link with the title " my question" or some other title of similar nature and once again derail topics. I'm sure I'm not the only observing reader that notices this. Please stop. And to either side, please, please be generous to your opponents, it's amazing what a decent attitude will do, especially for us onlookers. No, I don't think it is a cure-all, but a very decent start. I'm one reader that continues to watch these interesting topics devolve into tactics that honestly seem like I'm back in some schoolyard , backwards caps, and all. See, let's say you had substantive arguments to an outsider looking in, then you finish off with some "I GOT U!" laughing fit or an attack or borderline attack on someone's character, you lost me. It's nauseating to read this on forums with this type of rich communication from both sides of the equation, and the teenage testosterone kicks in and disenchants the entire lot. Yes this is emotional and I think that is a side discredited too often. It has implications. I surely can't speak for everyone and I know that emotion is not a way to truth. However, you can speak truth and be completely disregarded due to a serial cocksure , nasty attitude. I really look forward to reading more topics here, but please any of you, be gracious and thoughtful and you will have my attention and I'm sure others as well. I don't know where I stand just yet, I find both sides quite engaging and interesting. I assume most of you are my senior, so please lead by example. I can't wait to see what is to come. I wish every single one of you the best and thank you for all your work on each side, it is quite wonderful. ps Sorry for derailing this topic, I too can be a hypocrite. = )ENich
March 17, 2015
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It had to be said. I'm growing weary of the absolute idiocy some display. Keith S is thee poster child. I'll summarise his view. Unguided evolution is the best explanation for the diversity of life, you can't really trust your own mind but of unguided evolution I'm sure.... Am I the only one that think this lunacy?Andre
March 17, 2015
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#KF Didn't I, in that closed thread, say something about people who lived in glass houses? I'm quite serious about those calculations because they show the absurdity of the "impossibly low probability" argument. If 10^100 (on just a century) doesn't impress you, the 1000000th generation will be 10^(1000000) times less probable than their ancestors, just because the survival rate is low. The geological timescale is long -- we haven't even left the Pleistocene yet, travelling back in time. It means a tremendous reduction of entropy in the history of life. Is it physically possible on our planet? Well, it depends on the natural flux of entropy. One has to do the (rather simple) maths to make sure. If the flux were insufficient, unguided evolution would be in trouble. (Spoiler: never fear, it isn't.)Piotr
March 17, 2015
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KS, you have just convinced me that you are out of contact with reality. I am now of the view that too many objectors to design thought are victims of the ideologised, indoctrinated, polarised, padlocked mind. But then, some of these refuse to acknowledge self evident first principles of right reason. If they are that closed and locked, no amount of empirical evidence or reasoning regarding best explanations of traces of a remote, unobservable past of origins will move them. Only the scale of institutional shock such as happened 25 years back when Marxism-Leninism imploded, and even then it will be likely that there will be a tendency of denial, self justification and repackaging. I will be acting on that basis henceforward. G'day. KF PS: Niw, though it is inefficient to be commenting on multiple threads, I was willing, even in the midst of Budget season here. But I am NOT willing to be pulled into trying to hold a reasonable discussion with those who indulge trollish conduct. It cropped up several times in recent days, and after giving warning in the thread just closed DNA_Jock insisted on going back to schoolyard level taunting and constructing and knocking over ad hominem laced strawmen. That has changed my position . . . I had hoped that we were going somewhere with a discussion at at least serious levels. I can no longer hold that view and will act accordingly until I see very good reason to hope for better behaviour.kairosfocus
March 17, 2015
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keith, Piotr... Your accusations to kairosfocus are not fair. kairosfocus has closed his previous thread because it is inefficient to maintain open two threads about an identical topic. It is better to convey comments to the last one. This is the reason why I don't comment any more on my own old thread on the same topic. You should honestly recognize that you do have the chance of commenting here how much you desire, and you also do it heavily!...niwrad
March 17, 2015
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Piotr, pardon me. It is DNA_jock who indulged the trollish misbehaviour again after warning was given. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2015
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Says Keith S who still don't understand his own unguided evolution is the best explanation nonsense....Andre
March 17, 2015
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Scordova,
Scordova: I probably wasn’t really ever forgiven for this heresy
I enjoyed reading it! This part is particularly interesting:
Scordova: A thermodynamically closed system that is far from equilibrium can increase the amount of physical design provided it is either front loaded or has an intelligent agent (like a human) within it. A simple example: A human on a large nuclear powered space ship can write software and compose music or many other designs. The space ship is closed but far from equilibrium. But complexity can still increase because of the human intelligent agent.
[edit:]An increase in organization implies a decrease of statistical entropy, right?Box
March 17, 2015
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KF, Try to learn to accept defeat gracefully. You were out-argued in that thread, plain and simple. This repeated business of grabbing your ball, scrawling all over someone else's comments, closing comments altogether, and going home is childish. If you can't accept defeat gracefully, then perhaps you should find a much smaller pond in which you can pretend to be the big fish.keith s
March 17, 2015
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Good point, Piotr. I would also note that, when closing the thread, kf did concede
...entropy values directly tied to creating such configurations would patently be small relative to those connected to things like the latent heat of fusion of ice...
Well, not so much "small" as miniscule, but I accept his concession that 2LoT has nothing to do with it. That was my point.DNA_Jock
March 17, 2015
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Piotr, you failed to mention that despite warnings you resorted to schoolyard taunt type trollish behaviour, forfeiting the privilege of comment. That context is highly material, and it speaks to a serious attitude problem that you and those who are as you need to address. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2015
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Box: Maybe intelligence is. Is what? A perpetual motion machine?Zachriel
March 17, 2015
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KF closed comments on the previous thread before I had a chance to reply to him, so I'll say it here, since it isn't off topic:
Poitr, even just the creation of one functional protein of typical length 300 AAs or the D/RNA with the code for it — never mind needed execution machinery — is beyond the 500 – 1,000 bit threshold.
Good, we have established that the creation of life from sctratch is impossibly difficult. There goes creationism. Stepwise increase of complexity seems to be the only viable notion. We may not know the right scenario yet, but maybe you recall Boltzmann's remarks about the chemistry of photosynthesis and plant metabolism. He had no idea what the details were, but the general principle was clear to him. So what about those calculations? You see, I'm just a linguist who's overstepped his limits, placing too much trust in the wrong school of thought. But you are well-versed in Boltzmann and Gibbs; and since you've recommended Robertson's book to me, I assume you know it yourself. If not, this place is aswarm with experts. Is the problem too hard for your brain trust? I'm pretty sure it would be no problem for Sal Cordova, but this is precisely the reason why he chose to part company with the rest of you. All right, it's easy to arrive at a ballpark estimate, so I'll give you a little time. In my example, the chances that a member of the next generation will survive and produce offspring are 10^(-1) -- something that may well happen in nature. After 100 years we have a population consisting entirely of individuals 10^100 times "more improbable" than the initial generation. This makes your thresholds pathetically low. To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee, that's not an improbability -- THAT's an improbability!Piotr
March 17, 2015
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Zachriel: Nothing violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. No matter how clever you might be, there is no perpetual motion machine.
Maybe intelligence is. Under materialism there has to be an external cause for everything - it is (also) my understanding that this notion of causation is foundational to the 2nd law. First Cause arguments (Aquinas) inform us that this leads to an infinite regress of causation, which is incoherent. In post #20 I refer to the fact that life and consciousness points to "self-causation", which is IMO indicative of a force that is not under the dominion of the 2nd law.Box
March 17, 2015
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Box We are on the same page (no news here). Interesting note of yours:
The disconnect between the 2nd law and intelligence seems to end once organization is injected into a material system.
Once organization is injected into a material system, then that organized material system inesorably degradates, if an apt maintance is not provided. Only organization meant in the metaphysical realm of "ideas" and archetypes is not subject to degradation. Its instantiations on matter necessarily are.niwrad
March 17, 2015
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Niwrad: The “force” steering things in the opposite direction is indeed intelligence.
Thank you for this clear answer. So intelligence steers things in the opposite direction as intended by the 2nd law. This brings us to the question if this constitutes a "violation" of the 2nd law.
Niwrad: I wouldn’t say properly that 2nd law is “violated”. The 2nd law doesn’t prohibit at all that an organization source (the above intelligence) injects organization into a system. Exactly like gravity doesn’t prohibit the force of your arm lifts an object from the ground.
In line with your explanation (see quote in #38) one could say that the 2nd law "orders" things to go to the right, but that 'organizing intelligence' refuses to obey and steers things to the left. Looking at it like this seems to imply that the 2nd law is indeed violated. On the other hand as you point out "the 2nd doesn’t prohibit at all that an organization source (the above intelligence) injects organization into a system". IOW the 2nd law has no dominion over intelligence. Looking at it like this implies that, since intelligence is not bound by the 2nd law, it also cannot violate it. The disconnect between the 2nd law and intelligence seems to end once organization is injected into a material system. Instantiated information is subjected to the 2nd law - eventually everything is turned to rubble and it kills all of us. IOW organization's origin is disconnected from the second law, but - after instantiation into matter - it's functioning and continued existence (in matter) is not. This may ground correlations between thermodynamic, informational and organizational entropy.Box
March 17, 2015
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Niw, 2LOT of course implies a relevant compensating energy degradation elsewhere, with a paper trail on constructive work transactions requiring energy sources, conversions, co-ordinated action steps on that, exhaust of degraded energy . KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2015
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harry: And if that is true, then doesn’t it mean that local decreases in entropy are only temporary and must eventually submit to the inexorable pressure on matter to assume a more likely state? Eventually can be a long time. The Sun is expected to shine for several billions years before petering out. harry: And except for the singular exception of life, doesn’t all of our knowledge of the observable Universe indicate that matter does indeed tend to “get more disordered and chaotic with time,” ... While overall entropy inevitably increases, local decreases are very common in nature. harry: instead of assembling itself into functional complexity light years beyond our own technology? You're still confusing "functional complexity" with thermodynamic order. Box: IOW the mere existence of organization and systems leads us to conclude that the 2nd law is “overcome” or “violated”. Nothing violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. No matter how clever you might be, there is no perpetual motion machine. Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law. Box: O……………..S———–> Crystals are low entropy, meaning opposite the direction of entropy flow. niwrad: The “force” steering things in the opposite direction is indeed intelligence. So Vulcan forges crystals? Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible {without intelligence} harry: So it’s not an exception. Life is not an exception to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. If you stop consuming calories, you will wind down like any heat machine.Zachriel
March 17, 2015
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Piotr #40,
Piotr: Entropy is not a force, (...)
Okay, fine by me. BTW In #38 I did not make that claim.
Piotr: (...) and whatever can lower it locally is not a force either.
How do you know? Do you object to terming an organizing intelligence a "force"?Box
March 17, 2015
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Box
Does is follow from the mere existence of organization and systems that some force working in the opposite direction (to the left) must be present? That some force steers things in the opposite direction than is to be expected under the 2nd law alone?
The answers are two "yes". You are right. The "force" steering things in the opposite direction is indeed intelligence.
IOW the mere existence of organization and systems leads us to conclude that the 2nd law is “overcome” or “violated”.
I wouldn't say properly that 2nd law is “violated”. The 2nd law doesn't prohibit at all that an organization source (the above intelligence) injects organization into a system. Exactly like gravity doesn't prohibit the force of your arm lifts an object from the ground. Yes, the mere existence of organization in the cosmos points to a organizing Intelligence.niwrad
March 17, 2015
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Piotr @ 35
Life is not an "exception."
Oh. So it's not an exception. And just what are the phenomena exhibiting significant functional complexity other than life, that mindlessly and accidentally came to "thrive on earth" because all they had to do was simply "tap into energy and entropy fluxes while they exist."? There should be a plethora of examples of phenomena 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 as functionally complex as life, and some instances of phenomena even more functionally complex than life, if all it took was tapping "into energy and entropy fluxes" to resist the inexorable tendency of matter towards a more likely, non-functional state.harry
March 17, 2015
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#38, Box, [sigh] Those things are not "forces". Entropy is not a force, and whatever can lower it locally is not a force either. Both the increase and the decrease of entropy are statistical effects -- the emergent flock behavior of immense numbers of molecules capable of interacting with other molecules. The 2nd law doesn't say "disorder must increase", full stop".Piotr
March 17, 2015
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Sparc, he obviously was there first, on record in NFL; though Orgel and Wicken were first of all, he cites Orgel. I worked from Orgel, Wicken and Thaxton et al. Your attempted inquisition is simply showing you to be determined to find any objection you can to dismiss something that is a directly observable common reality. A reality that routinely traces to design and which happens to be there in copious quantities in the cell and life forms generally. FSCO/I is real, get over it. KF PS: Oops this is in a cross thread situation, I cited WmAD on FSCO/I in extenso from NFL here at 131 in the Piotr etc thresd: https://uncommondescent.com/molecular-animations/piotr-and-ks-dna_jock-vs-et-al-and-compensation-arguments-vs-the-energy-audit-police/#comment-554393kairosfocus
March 17, 2015
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