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Second Thoughts on the Second Law: Extending an Olive Branch

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Recently on niwrad’s thread we have had a lively discussion about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and its potential application to the question of a materialistic abiogenesis scenario. kairosfocus has followed up with another useful post.

In the present thread I provide a high level view of some of the key issues and misconceptions surrounding the 2nd Law arguments. Please note, I do so not as any kind of official spokesperson for intelligent design, but based on my experience debating this issue and my individual thoughts on the matter. My intelligent-design-inclined colleagues may disagree with my assessment, but hopefully I have provided some food for thought and, perhaps, an avenue for more productive discourse in the future.

Discussions on this topic almost invariably generate more heat than light, but there are a few useful nuggets that have come out of the discussions that deserve to be brought to the forefront. I hope I am not stepping on niwrad’s or kairosfocus’ toes by writing this post, but I wanted to share a few thoughts in a somewhat more formal manner than I can with a comment in another thread.

Specifically, I want to lay out what the 2nd Law argument potentially can, and cannot, bring to the table in the context of the abiogenesis question. The overall goal is to help avoid side roads and irrelevancies in future discussions so that the primary issues can be focused on. As a result, I will approach this by outlining a few myths that abiogenesis proponents need to be cognizant of, as well as a few myths that abiogenesis skeptics need to be aware of.

I would note at the outset that much of the disconnect arises due to a failure to understand, or to charitably attempt to understand, the arguments being put forth by the other side. In the hopes that all of us might benefit from a deep breath and a careful outline of some of the issues, here is my initial attempt at a few myths to be aware of – and to avoid – in future discussions and debates.

Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law.

Those who entertain this myth tend to heap copious amounts of ridicule on abiogenesis skeptics, noting how incredibly foolish the skeptics are to think the 2nd Law could be violated. After all, everyone knows this is not possible, so clearly the skeptics have no idea what they are talking about and can be ignored. This might sound good on the surface, but it arises from a complete misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument. Don’t fall prey to this myth. Don’t claim that abiogenesis skeptics think the 2nd Law has been violated. Don’t lead others astray by insinuating as much.

Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun.

This myth is likewise based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ arguments. If skeptics were wondering where most of the energy on the Earth comes from, then pointing out that Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun would be relevant. But that is not the focus of the skeptics’ question. Nor is the skeptics’ question about where energy is from generally or whether enough energy is available. Don’t use the common ‘Earth-is-an-open-system’ refrain to try to explain why the skepticism about abiogenesis is silly, or to insinuate that skeptics are foolish because they aren’t aware of energy transfer or energy availability or similar such matters.

Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible.

This myth is closely related to #2, and is often implicitly linked to #2, but it deserves its own paragraph. Those who entertain this myth point out – quite rightly so – that the 2nd Law does not necessarily prohibit entropy levels from changing in particular locations or under particular circumstances. They often also point to a generally-held concept that changes in entropy in one location can be “compensated” for by counterbalancing changes elsewhere. Unfortunately, again, these arguments are based on a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument in the first place. Abiogenesis skeptics do not question whether entropy can change in specific locations under specific circumstances. And the fact that an entropy change in location A may be “compensated” for by a change in some location B is entirely irrelevant to the question at issue.

Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis.

Those who entertain this myth make much of the fact that living systems exist, ergo, the 2nd Law does not prohibit such systems from existing. They may carry on about how the 2nd Law does not absolutely, as a matter of sheer logic, prohibit the spontaneous formation of far-from-equilibrium systems. This myth is, again, borne of a misunderstanding of the skeptics’ argument, although in this case, as discussed below, it is sometimes due to the skeptics’ poor efforts to make clear their argument. In either case, it simply does not follow that because the 2nd Law does not prohibit such living systems from existing, that it does not prohibit them from initially forming on their own from inanimate matter under natural conditions. Such formation has definitely never been demonstrated. Additionally, it certainly does not follow that because an absolute prohibition against naturalistic abiogenesis does not exist that the 2nd Law does not pose any serious or significant constraints on such an event.

Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over.

Intelligent design proponents and creationists of various stripes did not invent this issue. The fact of significant thermodynamic constraints on abiogenesis is a well-known and ongoing issue among origin of life researchers. It remains a significant hurdle and has most definitely not been solved, despite decades of attempts to do so.

Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy.

Again, abiogenesis skeptics are not the first to raise the idea of applying the 2nd Law – or at the very least the concepts of the 2nd Law as they relate to entropy – to other areas, including informational entropy and organizational entropy. These are intriguing areas that merit careful consideration, not handwaving dismissals by people who are unable to see beyond the initial formulation. These areas are clearly applicable to the problems of creating an information-rich, functionally-organized living system. (Furthermore, as noted above, origin of life researchers also recognize that the 2nd Law, even in its basic formulation relating to thermal energy, raises issues in the origin of life context that must be dealt with.)

Myth #7: Order equals organization.

Those who fall into this trap have a fundamental misunderstanding of the critical difference between mere order and functional organization. They often bring up examples of crystals or snowflakes or other “orderly” configurations in nature as examples of spontaneous (and thermodynamically preferred) configurations. Unfortunately, none of those examples have anything to do with what we are dealing with in living systems or in abiogenesis.

There are no doubt a few additional myths that could be added, but if abiogenesis proponents as an initial step would refrain from falling into the above traps it would go a long way toward making the discussions more fruitful.

—–

As mentioned, there is room for improvement on all sides. So here are the myths abiogenesis skeptics should avoid.

Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of

Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things.

This myth rests on the idea that because designed systems typically exhibit some kind of functional state or can perform work, etc., that they are always lower in entropy than more uniformly-distributed states. It is true that living organisms constitute far-from-equilibrium systems and it is true that a necessary condition for work is typically the existence of a gradient or “potential,” rather than a uniformly-distributed state. It might even be true that designed systems often exhibit a lower level of entropy than non-designed things. However, it is not necessarily the case that they always do. Indeed, on the informational side in perhaps the easiest case we have to work with, that of our own language, we recognize that while meaningful language patterns tend to cluster toward a particular end of the entropy spectrum, there are nonsense patterns both lower and higher on the spectrum.

Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design.

This myth is related to the prior myth, but deserves its own paragraph. Those who hold to this myth take the trajectory of the constraints of the 2nd Law and apply them a bridge too far. Whether thermal, organizational, or informational, the measure of entropy in a system is not the ultimate arbiter of whether something is designed. The measure of entropy is essentially a statistical measure, similar at some level (if I dare mention another poorly-understood issue) to the statistical measure of the Shannon information metric. As such, the entropy measure can operate as something of a surrogate for the complexity side of the design inference. But it does not, in and of itself, address the specification aspect, nor yield an unambiguous signal of design. It is doubtful that it will ever be possible to prove design through a definite, unassailable calculation of entropy. Thus, while an entropy analysis can be an initial step in assessing the probability of a system arising through natural processes, it is not the only, nor even the most important, characteristic that needs to be considered to infer design.

Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis.

This myth is the reciprocal of Myth #4 for the abiogenesis proponents. Just as abiogenesis proponents sometimes mistakenly equate the lack of an absolute prohibition with the lack of significant practical constraints, abiogenesis skeptics sometimes mistakenly equate the existence of significant practical constraints with an absolute prohibition. It is true that origin of life researchers acknowledge the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law and that a resolution is not yet at hand. It is likely even the case that if we look at the specific molecular reactions required to form a simple living organism that pure thermodynamic considerations (setting aside organizational and informational aspects for a moment) will be sufficient to conclude that abiogenesis is effectively impossible. But the fact remains that it is, conceivably, at least logically possible.

Many abiogenesis skeptics will resonate with the following assessment from Robert Gange in Origins and Destiny, as early as 1986:

The likelihood of life having occurred through a chemical accident is, for all intents and purposes, zero. That does not mean that faith in a miraculous accident will not continue. But it does mean that those who believe it do so because they are philosophically committed to the notion that all that exists is matter and its motion. In other words, they do so for reasons of philosophy and not science.

However, even as Gange acknowledges, we are dealing with “likelihood” not absolute logical prohibition.

Summary

As I have indicated on previous occasions, I do not view arguments based on the 2nd Law as the best arguments to make against evolution generally, or against abiogenesis specifically.

Let me be clear: the 2nd Law does impose harsh, unforgiving, inescapable parameters on any abiogenesis scenario. The constraints of the 2nd Law are acknowledged by origin of life researchers and should be strongly pointed out where applicable. However, there are reasons to be cautious with the 2nd Law arguments, including:

(a) Arguments based on the 2nd Law tend to quickly become bogged down in definitional battles and general misunderstandings, including the myths outlined above. Often, so much energy is spent trying to correct the myths that little substantive progress results.

(b) The really interesting aspect of designed systems is not, in most cases, their thermal properties, but the organizational and informational aspects. Although there are good reasons to examine these aspects in the context of “entropy,” it is not formally necessary to do so, nor is it perhaps the most helpful and straight-forward way to do so.

(c) Ultimately, 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. This occurs for two reasons: (1) abiogenesis proponents, despite the lack of any empirical evidence for abiogenesis and strong reasons – including thermodynamic ones – to doubt the abiogenesis story, can always repose faith in a lucky chance, a cosmic accident, a highly-unusual coincidence to explain the origin of far-from-equilibrium living systems; and (2) the design inference itself depends in part on a probability analysis (coupled with a specification). As a result, despite whatever watertight 2nd Law argument an abiogenesis skeptic may put forward, it eventually comes down to a question of the probabilities and whether the abiogenesis story is realistic given the available probabilistic resources.

In summary, the constraints imposed by the 2nd Law should definitely be on the list – the exceedingly long list – of problems with a purely naturalistic origin of life story.

However, I would probably not lead with it.

Comments
Niwrad, I like your explanation of the 2nd law problem. You depict the second law as a tendency toward an increase of disorganization.
Niwrad: O……………..S———–> imagine you are “S” and “O” is a town. You are walking towards right while the town is on the left. What prevents you to reach O? Answer: the direction. Mutatis mutandis, S are systems and O is organization. S are walking towards right while O is on the left. What prevents S to reach O? Answer: the direction. The arrow represents the 2nd law.
Does is follow from the mere existence of organization and systems that some force working in the opposite direction (to the left) must be present? That some force steers things in the opposite direction than is to be expected under the 2nd law alone? IOW the mere existence of organization and systems leads us to conclude that the 2nd law is "overcome" or "violated". Again:
Niwrad: organization……………..systems———–> —> = 2nd law arrow
Box
March 17, 2015
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sparc, OK, since you insist, https://www.youtube.com/user/RussBreault2/videos https://www.shroud.com/ Shroud Of Turin - Photographic Negative - 3D Hologram - The Lamb - video http://www.tunesbaby.com/watch/?x=5664213 Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural - December 2011 Excerpt: After years of work trying to replicate the colouring on the shroud, a similar image has been created by the scientists. However, they only managed the effect by scorching equivalent linen material with high-intensity ultra violet lasers, undermining the arguments of other research, they say, which claims the Turin Shroud is a medieval hoax. Such technology, say researchers from the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development (Enea), was far beyond the capability of medieval forgers, whom most experts have credited with making the famous relic. "The results show that a short and intense burst of UV directional radiation can colour a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin," they said. And in case there was any doubt about the preternatural degree of energy needed to make such distinct marks, the Enea report spells it out: "This degree of power cannot be reproduced by any normal UV source built to date." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D hologram - photographic negative" image on the Shroud I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. Ask the Experts: What Is a Near-Death Experience (NDE)? - article with video Excerpt: "Very often as they're moving through the tunnel, there's a very bright mystical light ... not like a light we're used to in our earthly lives. People call this mystical light, brilliant like a million times a million suns..." - Jeffery Long M.D. - has studied NDE's extensivelybornagain77
March 17, 2015
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Did Dr Dembski ever conatacted you to learn something about FSCO/I?sparc
March 17, 2015
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#33 Harry,
And if that is true, then doesn’t it mean that local decreases in entropy are only temporary and must eventually submit to the inexorable pressure on matter to assume a more likely state?
Eventually, yes, but a stable source of low-entropy energy can keep a biosphere going for many billions years. Life is not an "exception". It thrives on earth because it can tap into energy and entropy fluxes while they exist.Piotr
March 17, 2015
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What I don't believe in is mindless statistical miracles, and as I noted above, 2LOT backs me in that. FSCO/I required for life from molecular noise and irrelevant energy/mass flows without a paper trail on the constructive work, is appeal to statistical miracle after miracle. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2015
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Piotr, Zachriel, Whether it an extension of the 2nd Law or not, is it or is it not true that "It is a matter of common experience, that things get more disordered and chaotic with time. ... the total amount of disorder, or entropy, in the universe, always increases with time. ... The order in one body can increase, provided that the amount of disorder in its surroundings increases by a greater amount."? And if that is true, then doesn't it mean that local decreases in entropy are only temporary and must eventually submit to the inexorable pressure on matter to assume a more likely state? And except for the singular exception of life, doesn't all of our knowledge of the observable Universe indicate that matter does indeed tend to "get more disordered and chaotic with time," instead of assembling itself into functional complexity light years beyond our own technology? If there are exceptions other than life, and phenomena brought about by intelligent life, what are they? And if there aren't, why not?harry
March 17, 2015
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Not the shroud again, please. BTW, what about the sudarium given to Bilhildis. Any quantum processes involved in this case too?sparc
March 17, 2015
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Lol @ "abiogenesis skeptics" you're not abiogenesis skeptics, youre creationists who want to believe in talking snakes EA: Thank you. Good example of Myth #5.Starbuck
March 17, 2015
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Piotr, wouldn't you have to believe that you actually have a real mind, instead of a 'illusory mind', before you can believe that telepathy of the mind is possible? :)
The Confidence of Jerry Coyne - Ross Douthat - January 6, 2014 Excerpt: then halfway through this peroration, we have as an aside the confession that yes, okay, it’s quite possible given materialist premises that “our sense of self is a neuronal illusion.” At which point the entire edifice suddenly looks terribly wobbly — because who, exactly, is doing all of this forging and shaping and purpose-creating if Jerry Coyne, as I understand him (and I assume he understands himself) quite possibly does not actually exist at all? The theme of his argument is the crucial importance of human agency under eliminative materialism, but if under materialist premises the actual agent is quite possibly a fiction, then who exactly is this I who “reads” and “learns” and “teaches,” and why in the universe’s name should my illusory self believe Coyne’s bold proclamation that his illusory self’s purposes are somehow “real” and worthy of devotion and pursuit? (Let alone that they’re morally significant:,,) Read more here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/06/the-confidence-of-jerry-coyne/?_r=0 “Hawking’s entire argument is built upon theism. He is, as Cornelius Van Til put it, like the child who must climb up onto his father’s lap into order to slap his face. Take that part about the “human mind” for example. Under atheism there is no such thing as a mind. There is no such thing as understanding and no such thing as truth. All Hawking is left with is a box, called a skull, which contains a bunch of molecules. Hawking needs God In order to deny Him.” - Cornelius Hunter - Photo – http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H-kjiGN_9Fw/URkPboX5l2I/AAAAAAAAATw/yN18NZgMJ-4/s1600/rob4.jpg The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - (4:03 minute mark, Brain Plasticity including Schwartz's work) - Oct. 2014 - video The Mind is able to modify the brain (brain plasticity). Moreover, Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism cannot explain mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 Is Metaphysical Naturalism Viable? – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzS_CQnmoLQ Study suggests precognition may be possible - Nov 18, 2010 Excerpt: A Cornell University scientist has demonstrated that psi anomalies, more commonly known as precognition, premonitions or extra-sensory perception (ESP), really do exist at a statistically significant level. http://phys.org/news/2010-11-precognition.html The Mind Is Not The Brain - Scientific Evidence - Rupert Sheldrake - (Referenced Notes) - video http://vimeo.com/33479544 Telephone telepathy with the Nolan Sisters - video http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=22013 Jaytee: A dog who knew when his owner was coming home - video https://vimeo.com/81150973
Of supplemental note: the image on the shroud is found to be formed by a quantum process. The image was not formed by a ‘classical’ process:
The absorbed energy in the Shroud body image formation appears as contributed by discrete values – Giovanni Fazio, Giuseppe Mandaglio – 2008 Excerpt: This result means that the optical density distribution,, can not be attributed at the absorbed energy described in the framework of the classical physics model. It is, in fact, necessary to hypothesize a absorption by discrete values of the energy where the ‘quantum’ is equal to the one necessary to yellow one fibril. http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/AAPP/article/view/C1A0802004/271
bornagain77
March 17, 2015
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#18 BA77, I had the premonition that the Quantum Shroud of Turin would appear in this thread. Clairvoyance or telepathy?Piotr
March 17, 2015
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Box: Box @ 20, Zachriel @ 24 You have you extension in the wrong direction. In any case, Hawking is making a common analogy. The 2nd law of thermodynamics refers to available microstates. The thermodynamic entropy of a messy desk and a neat desk are the same. If your notions leads to a different result, then you can't be referring to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. How many ways are there to arrange a messy desk? EA: I'm not sure a messy desk is the best analogy, so probably not worth discussing in detail, but again, you are focusing only on the thermal aspect. See Myth #6.Zachriel
March 17, 2015
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#20 Box, If entropy (unlike mass/energy) can be generated "out of nothing", why can't structure arise in the same way? Vanishingly low probability is no obstacle. See here. Wanna do the calculations?Piotr
March 17, 2015
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Either Hawking or, more probably, someone copying his lecture made a serious mistake in this paragraph (where?). The folk-scientific conflation of entropy with "disorder" can be excused, since the lecture was addressed to a lay audience, and I suppose Hawking wanted to avoid technical jargon.Piotr
March 17, 2015
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Box @ 20, Zachriel @ 24
The “extended 2nd law” must be referring to something else, the 2nd law of something-something. -- Zachriel It is a matter of common experience, that things get more disordered and chaotic with time. This observation can be elevated to the status of a law, the so-called Second Law of Thermodynamics. This says that the total amount of disorder, or entropy, in the universe, always increases with time. However, the Law refers only to the total amount of disorder. The order in one body can increase, provided that the amount of disorder in its surroundings increases by a greater amount. -- Stephen Hawking, Life in the Universe, http://www.hawking.org.uk/life-in-the-universe.html
Hawking defines above the more general or "extended" application of the 2nd Law.harry
March 17, 2015
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Box: Life does not violate the 2nd Law wrt to thermal energy. Good. Glad that's settled. Box: However regarding informational entropy and organizational entropy life violates the “extended” 2nd law in the sense that there is no materialistic origin for information and organization. If, by informational entropy, you mean statistical statements of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, then no. The statistical and classical statements of the 2nd law of thermodynamics are equivalent. The "extended 2nd law" must be referring to something else, the 2nd law of something-something.Zachriel
March 17, 2015
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Collin: The Sun has had an abundance of high order energy for billions of years. Why no life on the Sun? Similarly, Venus, the moon, Jupiter etc. Why no life? Chemistry.Zachriel
March 17, 2015
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Eric Anderson: Myths for Abiogenesis Proponents to Be Aware Of Eric Anderson: Myth #1: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that, in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law. Apparently, some do. It's actually quite common. That's why it is common to remind the reader that sunlight is the rich energy source, while the deep of space is the cold sink, and life is one of many forms of energy dissipation, swirls in the energy flow. Eric Anderson: Myth #2: The 2nd Law does not present a problem for abiogenesis because Earth is an “open” system and receives energy from the Sun. A source of energy is required, but not sufficient to explain life. The open system argument is sufficient not for life, but to rebut the claim that the 2nd law of thermodynamics prohibits abiogenesis. Eric Anderson: Myth #3: Abiogenesis skeptics believe that local decreases in entropy are not possible. They seem to choke on this fact when it's pointed out. Eric Anderson: Myth #4: The 2nd Law does not pose any practical constraints on abiogenesis because it does not absolutely prohibit abiogenesis. Correct. The 2nd law of thermodynamics places constraints on all physical processes, including any plausible abiogenetic scenario. Discussions about messy rooms and tornadoes making jet aircraft are not valid appeals to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Eric Anderson: Myth #5: Concerns about the 2nd Law as it relates to abiogenesis are just the musings of ignorant design proponents or “creationists,” are old hat, and have been fully addressed many times over. Pretty much. Eric Anderson: Myth #6: The 2nd Law can only be applied or fruitfully studied in its initial, most basic formulation relating to thermal energy. There are many formulations of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but they are all formulations of the same underlying phenomenon. If your formulation leads to a different result, then it is not the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Maybe you're referring to the 2nd law of something-something. Eric Anderson: Myth #7: Order equals organization. No, but the 2nd law of thermodynamics is not stated in terms of organization. Even order is a bit of a misnomer. --- Eric Anderson: Myths for Abiogenesis Skeptics to Be Aware Of Eric Anderson: Myth #1: The entropy of designed things is always lower than the entropy of non-designed things. Yeah, IDers always seem to choke on this one. Eric Anderson: Myth #2: The measure of entropy is a sufficient, or even key, indicator of design. Obviously not, though most IDers have no idea how to measure entropy. If they did, then most of these discussions would be moot. Eric Anderson: Myth #3: The 2nd Law prohibits abiogenesis. That seems to be the most common ID claim.Zachriel
March 17, 2015
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Collin: would you say that something that is thermodynamically impossible would even be impossible with an intelligent designer? The 2nd law of thermodynamics was originally formulated due to limitations of human engineers, no matter how clever. There is no perpetual motion machine.Zachriel
March 17, 2015
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Life does not violate the 2nd Law wrt to thermal energy. However regarding informational entropy and organizational entropy life violates the “extended” 2nd law in the sense that there is no materialistic origin for information and organization. To be clear: am I saying an organism creates thermodynamic energy out of nothing? Not at all. However I am saying that organization is being applied by an organism and that this cannot be accounted for under materialism. The mysterious origin of organization is noted by many, which is why an organism is often described as “self-organizing” and “self-sustaining”. N.B. exactly in this self-reference we see the crucial disconnection with a material cause – and the grounding for my notion that there is indeed a violation of 2nd law. Also note that we are all witness of this kind of self-causation in our own consciousness which is its own observer.Box
March 17, 2015
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Regarding myth #1 for abiogenesis proponents: It seems to me that there are abiogenesis skeptics who believe that any theory of the mindless, accidental emergence of life proposes for belief that which would indeed be a violation of the 2nd Law, but there are none who believe that "... in the history of life on Earth, there has actually been a violation of the 2nd Law," unless computers and spaceships are considered violations of the 2nd Law -- which they of course would be if they arose mindlessly and accidentally. But we know they don't. If a causal factor in the emergence of life, the functional complexity of which is light years beyond that of computers and spaceships, was intelligent agency, then there was no violation of the 2nd Law. Yet if life, the most functionally complex phenomenon known to us, came about mindlessly and accidentally, that would indeed be a violation of the 2nd Law, and most certainly so if matter accidentally assembling itself into relatively crude and simple (compared to life) computers and spaceships would violate the 2nd Law. So, would matter mindlessly and accidentally assembling itself into a computer violate the 2nd Law?harry
March 17, 2015
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Needless to say, the implications of this ‘eternity of death and destruction’ should be fairly disturbing for those of us who are of the ‘spiritually minded’ persuasion! In light of this dilemma, it is interesting to point out a subtle nuance on the Shroud of Turin. Namely that Gravity/Entropy was overcome in the resurrection event of Christ:
A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 THE EVENT HORIZON (Space-Time Singularity) OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. – Isabel Piczek – Particle Physicist Excerpt: We have stated before that the images on the Shroud firmly indicate the total absence of Gravity. Yet they also firmly indicate the presence of the Event Horizon. These two seemingly contradict each other and they necessitate the past presence of something more powerful than Gravity that had the capacity to solve the above paradox. http://shroud3d.com/findings/isabel-piczek-image-formation Turin shroud – (Particle Physicist explains event horizon) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHVUGK6UFK8 Particle Radiation from the Body – July 2012 – M. Antonacci, A. C. Lind Excerpt: The Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images are encoded with the same amount of intensity, independent of any pressure or weight from the body. The bottom part of the cloth (containing the dorsal image) would have born all the weight of the man’s supine body, yet the dorsal image is not encoded with a greater amount of intensity than the frontal image. Radiation coming from the body would not only explain this feature, but also the left/right and light/dark reversals found on the cloth’s frontal and dorsal body images. https://docs.google.com/document/d/19tGkwrdg6cu5mH-RmlKxHv5KPMOL49qEU8MLGL6ojHU/edit
Verses and Music:
John 8:23-24 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins. Evanescence – The Other Side (Music-Lyric Video) http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/the-other-side-lyric-video/USWV41200024?source=instantsearch
bornagain77
March 17, 2015
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And although the effects of entropy are readily apparent as we grow older, it is also readily apparent that the human body is being constrained from the effects of entropy by something that is 'unnatural'. Talbott puts the question as to why the human body does not immediately disintergrate into thermodynamic equilibrium like this: "What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?"
The Unbearable Wholeness of Beings – Stephen L. Talbott Excerpt: Virtually the same collection of molecules exists in the canine cells during the moments immediately before and after death. But after the fateful transition no one will any longer think of genes as being regulated, nor will anyone refer to normal or proper chromosome functioning. No molecules will be said to guide other molecules to specific targets, and no molecules will be carrying signals, which is just as well because there will be no structures recognizing signals. Code, information, and communication, in their biological sense, will have disappeared from the scientist’s vocabulary. ,,, the question, rather, is why things don’t fall completely apart — as they do, in fact, at the moment of death. What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer? Despite the countless processes going on in the cell, and despite the fact that each process might be expected to “go its own way” according to the myriad factors impinging on it from all directions, the actual result is quite different. Rather than becoming progressively disordered in their mutual relations (as indeed happens after death, when the whole dissolves into separate fragments), the processes hold together in a larger unity. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-unbearable-wholeness-of-beings “What power holds off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer?” – picture http://cdn-4.spiritscienceandmetaphysics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/harvardd-2.jpg Rabbit decomposition time-lapse (higher resolution) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6sFP_7Vezg
I hold, as Andy C. McIntosh, professor of thermodynamics and combustion theory at the University of Leeds, holds, that it is non-material information that is what is constraining the cell (and the human body) to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium and is the 'power holding off that moment — precisely for a lifetime, and not a moment longer'. To back that claim up, we now have evidence that information must be 'entering the system' (Sewell), from beyond space-time, in order to construct the human body (in order to make the human body 'not extremely improbable'). Every time a DNA molecule is constructed, or a protein is folded, an appeal must now be made to a non-local, beyond space and time, cause so as to coherently explain the non-local quantum entanglement within the DNA and protein molecule:
Looking beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory – 29 October 2012 Excerpt: “Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime, in the sense that no story in space and time can describe them,” http://www.quantumlah.org/highlight/121029_hidden_influences.php Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA – short video https://vimeo.com/92405752 Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint – 2010 Excerpt: When the researchers analysed the DNA without its helical structure, they found that the electron clouds were not entangled. But when they incorporated DNA’s helical structure into the model, they saw that the electron clouds of each base pair became entangled with those of its neighbours. “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ The DNA Mystery: Scientists Stumped By “Telepathic” Abilities – Sept, 2009 Scientists are reporting evidence that contrary to our current beliefs about what is possible, intact double-stranded DNA has the “amazing” ability to recognize similarities in other DNA strands from a distance. Somehow they are able to identify one another, and the tiny bits of genetic material tend to congregate with similar DNA. The recognition of similar sequences in DNA’s chemical subunits, occurs in a way unrecognized by science. There is no known reason why the DNA is able to combine the way it does, and from a current theoretical standpoint this feat should be chemically impossible. per daily galaxy Physicists Discover Quantum Law of Protein Folding – February 22, 2011 Quantum mechanics finally explains why protein folding depends on temperature in such a strange way. Excerpt: First, a little background on protein folding. Proteins are long chains of amino acids that become biologically active only when they fold into specific, highly complex shapes. The puzzle is how proteins do this so quickly when they have so many possible configurations to choose from. To put this in perspective, a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows.,,, Their astonishing result is that this quantum transition model fits the folding curves of 15 different proteins and even explains the difference in folding and unfolding rates of the same proteins. That's a significant breakthrough. Luo and Lo's equations amount to the first universal laws of protein folding. That’s the equivalent in biology to something like the thermodynamic laws in physics. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/423087/physicists-discover-quantum-law-of-protein/
Thus, Dr. Sewell is found to be correct in his contention:
"If an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable."
Of supplemental note: the maximum source for entropy (randomness) in the universe is now known to be black holes,,,
Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe “Einstein’s equation predicts that, as the astronaut reaches the singularity (of the black-hole), the tidal forces grow infinitely strong, and their chaotic oscillations become infinitely rapid. The astronaut dies and the atoms which his body is made become infinitely and chaotically distorted and mixed-and then, at the moment when everything becomes infinite (the tidal strengths, the oscillation frequencies, the distortions, and the mixing), spacetime ceases to exist.” Kip S. Thorne – “Black Holes and Time Warps: Einstein’s Outrageous Legacy” pg. 476
bornagain77
March 17, 2015
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A few related notes: To pick up from post 5 and extend it: In the following paper, Andy C. McIntosh, professor of thermodynamics and combustion theory at the University of Leeds, holds that non-material information is what is constraining the cell to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium. Moreover, Dr. McIntosh holds that regarding information as independent of energy and matter ‘resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions’.
Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems – Andy C. McIntosh – 2013 Excerpt: ,,, information is in fact non-material and that the coded information systems (such as, but not restricted to the coding of DNA in all living systems) is not defined at all by the biochemistry or physics of the molecules used to store the data. Rather than matter and energy defining the information sitting on the polymers of life, this approach posits that the reverse is in fact the case. Information has its definition outside the matter and energy on which it sits, and furthermore constrains it to operate in a highly non-equilibrium thermodynamic environment. This proposal resolves the thermodynamic issues and invokes the correct paradigm for understanding the vital area of thermodynamic/organisational interactions, which despite the efforts from alternative paradigms has not given a satisfactory explanation of the way information in systems operates.,,, http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/9789814508728_0008
Here is a recent video by Dr. Giem, that gets the main points of Dr. McIntosh’s paper over very well for the lay person:
Biological Information – Information and Thermodynamics in Living Systems 11-22-2014 by Paul Giem (A. McIntosh) – video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR_r6mFdwQM
Dr. McIntosh’s contention that ‘non-material information’ must be constraining life to be so far out of thermodynamic equilibrium has been borne out empirically. Classical Information in the cell has now been physically measured and is shown to correlate to the thermodynamics of the cell:
Maxwell’s demon demonstration (knowledge of a particle’s position) turns information into energy – November 2010 Excerpt: Scientists in Japan are the first to have succeeded in converting information into free energy in an experiment that verifies the “Maxwell demon” thought experiment devised in 1867.,,, In Maxwell’s thought experiment the demon creates a temperature difference simply from information about the gas molecule temperatures and without transferring any energy directly to them.,,, Until now, demonstrating the conversion of information to energy has been elusive, but University of Tokyo physicist Masaki Sano and colleagues have succeeded in demonstrating it in a nano-scale experiment. In a paper published in Nature Physics they describe how they coaxed a Brownian particle to travel upwards on a “spiral-staircase-like” potential energy created by an electric field solely on the basis of information on its location. As the particle traveled up the staircase it gained energy from moving to an area of higher potential, and the team was able to measure precisely how much energy had been converted from information. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-maxwell-demon-energy.html Demonic device converts information to energy – 2010 Excerpt: “This is a beautiful experimental demonstration that information has a thermodynamic content,” says Christopher Jarzynski, a statistical chemist at the University of Maryland in College Park. In 1997, Jarzynski formulated an equation to define the amount of energy that could theoretically be converted from a unit of information2; the work by Sano and his team has now confirmed this equation. “This tells us something new about how the laws of thermodynamics work on the microscopic scale,” says Jarzynski. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=demonic-device-converts-inform
As should be needless to say, the physical demonstration that ‘information has a thermodynamic content’ is extremely bad news for neo-Darwinism (and OOL for that matter).
“Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more.” Gilbert Newton Lewis – preeminent Chemist of the first half of last century “Bertalanffy (1968) called the relation between irreversible thermodynamics and information theory one of the most fundamental unsolved problems in biology.” Charles J. Smith – Biosystems, Vol.1, p259.
When measuring the information content of a 'simple cell' from the themodynamic perspective, the 'information problem' explodes into garguatuan porportions:
“a one-celled bacterium, e. coli, is estimated to contain the equivalent of 100 million pages of Encyclopedia Britannica. Expressed in information in science jargon, this would be the same as 10^12 bits of information. In comparison, the total writings from classical Greek Civilization is only 10^9 bits, and the largest libraries in the world – The British Museum, Oxford Bodleian Library, New York Public Library, Harvard Widenier Library, and the Moscow Lenin Library – have about 10 million volumes or 10^12 bits.” – R. C. Wysong 'The information content of a simple cell has been estimated as around 10^12 bits, comparable to about a hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica." Carl Sagan, "Life" in Encyclopedia Britannica: Macropaedia (1974 ed.), pp. 893-894
For calculations, from the thermodynamic perspective, please see the following site:
Biophysics – Information theory. Relation between information and entropy: - Setlow-Pollard, Ed. Addison Wesley Excerpt: Linschitz gave the figure 9.3 x 10^12 cal/deg or 9.3 x 10^12 x 4.2 joules/deg for the entropy of a bacterial cell. Using the relation H = S/(k In 2), we find that the information content is 4 x 10^12 bits. Morowitz' deduction from the work of Bayne-Jones and Rhees gives the lower value of 5.6 x 10^11 bits, which is still in the neighborhood of 10^12 bits. Thus two quite different approaches give rather concordant figures. https://docs.google.com/document/d/18hO1bteXTPOqQtd2H12PI5wFFoTjwg8uBAU5N0nEQIE/edit
Having one hundred million pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica worth of information sitting out of thermodynamic equilibrium would certainly suggest something 'unnatural' has entered the universe from beyond space-time to make the simple cell 'not extremely improbable' (Sewell). Moreover, it is apparent that the human body trounces the 'simple cell' in terms of being out of Thermodynamic equilibrium. The human body consist of something close to one trillion-billion protein molecules:
HOW BIOLOGISTS LOST SIGHT OF THE MEANING OF LIFE — AND ARE NOW STARING IT IN THE FACE - Stephen L. Talbott - May 2012 Excerpt: “If you think air traffic controllers have a tough job guiding planes into major airports or across a crowded continental airspace, consider the challenge facing a human cell trying to position its proteins”. A given cell, he notes, may make more than 10,000 different proteins, and typically contains more than a billion protein molecules at any one time. “Somehow a cell must get all its proteins to their correct destinations — and equally important, keep these molecules out of the wrong places”.,,, The question is indeed, then, “How does the organism meaningfully dispose of all its molecules, getting them to the right places and into the right interactions?” The same sort of question can be asked of cells, for example in the growing embryo, where literal streams of cells are flowing to their appointed places, differentiating themselves into different types as they go, and adjusting themselves to all sorts of unpredictable perturbations — even to the degree of responding appropriately when a lab technician excises a clump of them from one location in a young embryo and puts them in another, where they may proceed to adapt themselves in an entirely different and proper way to the new environment. It is hard to quibble with the immediate impression that form (which is more idea-like than thing-like) is primary, and the material particulars subsidiary. Two systems biologists, one from the Max Delbrück Center for Molecular Medicine in Germany and one from Harvard Medical School, frame one part of the problem this way: "The human body is formed by trillions of individual cells. These cells work together with remarkable precision, first forming an adult organism out of a single fertilized egg, and then keeping the organism alive and functional for decades. To achieve this precision, one would assume that each individual cell reacts in a reliable, reproducible way to a given input, faithfully executing the required task. However, a growing number of studies investigating cellular processes on the level of single cells revealed large heterogeneity even among genetically identical cells of the same cell type. (Loewer and Lahav 2011)",,, And then we hear that all this meaningful activity is, somehow, meaningless or a product of meaninglessness. This, I believe, is the real issue troubling the majority of the American populace when they are asked about their belief in evolution. They see one thing and then are told, more or less directly, that they are really seeing its denial. Yet no one has ever explained to them how you get meaning from meaninglessness — a difficult enough task once you realize that we cannot articulate any knowledge of the world at all except in the language of meaning.,,, http://www.netfuture.org/2012/May1012_184.html#2
And although the effects of entropy are readily apparent as we grow older,,,
Entropy Explains Aging, Genetic Determinism Explains Longevity, and Undefined Terminology Explains Misunderstanding Both - 2007 Excerpt: There is a huge body of knowledge supporting the belief that age changes are characterized by increasing entropy, which results in the random loss of molecular fidelity, and accumulates to slowly overwhelm maintenance systems [1–4].,,, http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030220 Here's a interesting talk by Dr. John Sanford. Starting at the 17 minute mark going to the 22 minute mark. He relates how slightly detrimental mutations, that accumulate each time a cell divides, are the primary reason why our physical/material bodies grow old and die. John Sanford on (Genetic Entropy) - Down, Not Up - 2-4-2012 (at Loma Linda University) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PHsu94HQrL0#t=1040s Notes from John Sanford's preceding video: *3 new mutations every time a cell divides in your body * Average cell of 15 year old has up to 6000 mutations *Average cell of 60 year old has 40,000 mutations Reproductive cells are 'designed' so that, early on in development, they are 'set aside' and thus they do not accumulate mutations as the rest of the cells of our bodies do. Regardless of this protective barrier against the accumulation of slightly detrimental mutations still we find that,,, *60-175 mutations are passed on to each new generation. This following video brings the point personally home to us about the effects of genetic entropy: Aging Process - 85 years in 40 seconds - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A91Fwf_sMhk
bornagain77
March 17, 2015
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As for the origin of life, I've read about a physicist who says that the laws of thermodynamics are favorable to the origin of life under certain conditions. I'm saying this without looking at it. I think a link a link was posted a while ago at sandwalk. As for probabilities... do you even know that, for instance, the event of someone who is black having a white twin is improbable, and much more so the probability of having a black twin x the probability of both having brown eyes x the probability of both having small ears x ... (whatever traits)? And I don't think we need to go that far - any genetic conbination that you might have is improbable.Missy
March 17, 2015
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Excellent miths black-list, thanks Eric Anderson.niwrad
March 17, 2015
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Jim, it seems like we can't answer the question without massive amounts of data, which is mostly unavailable. Also, would you say that something that is thermodynamically impossible would even be impossible with an intelligent designer?Collin
March 17, 2015
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... After you've done the chemical analysis of possible ways life might have arisen naturally and found that none are plausible based on what is known about the conditions at the time and what is known about chemistry, then saying "it's thermodynamically impossible" is a valid way to generalize your findings.Jim Smith
March 17, 2015
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I wouldn't open a round in a debate with an argument on thermodynamics, I would save it to reply to my opponent's statements on thermodynamics. If someone says "life violates the 2nd law", you can reply "but the earth is an open system", or if someone says "a natural origin of life is thermodynamically possible because the earth is an open system" you can reply "but a tornado doesn't turn rubble into buildings". Either way arguments on thermodynamics are not going to prove anything. To make a strong argument you have to either come up with a plausible chemical mechanism for the natural origin of life, or you have to refute all proposed mechanisms for the natural origin of life. Either way you have to argue chemistry, the rates of specific reactions, the probabilities of specific reactions, thermodynamics is too general to solve the question.Jim Smith
March 17, 2015
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", 2nd Law arguments eventually collapse to a probability argument. " That is just as it should be ... because the second law is a fancy way of discussing probability. Systems tend to disorder because it is more probable that chance molecular movements will produce disorder than order. Saying abiogenesis is impossible because it violates the 2nd law and saying the earth is an open system so abiogensis is possible, are both just so stories unless you discuss actual probabilities based on our knowledge of the conditions on earth when life supposedly arose and our knowledge of chemistry.Jim Smith
March 16, 2015
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Don't you even consider that you may just be wrong?sparc
March 16, 2015
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