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God and Science Redux: Lawrence Krauss

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A friend alerted me to this piece by Lawrence Krauss from the Wall Street Journal.

Krauss writes:

“J.B.S. Haldane, an evolutionary biologist and a founder of population genetics, understood that science is by necessity an atheistic discipline. As Haldane so aptly described it, one cannot proceed with the process of scientific discovery if one assumes a “god, angel, or devil” will interfere with one’s experiments. God is, of necessity, irrelevant in science.

Faced with the remarkable success of science to explain the workings of the physical world, many, indeed probably most, scientists understandably react as Haldane did. Namely, they extrapolate the atheism of science to a more general atheism.”

No surprise here. But he concludes with

“Finally, it is worth pointing out that these issues are not purely academic. The current crisis in Iran has laid bare the striking inconsistency between a world built on reason and a world built on religious dogma.”

Perhaps the most important contribution an honest assessment of the incompatibility between science and religious doctrine can provide is to make it starkly clear that in human affairs — as well as in the rest of the physical world — reason is the better guide.”

Reason is a better guide than what? Religion? Which religion? All religions? What empircal data does Krauss have to back up this, supposedly, scientific claim. For that matter, what precisely does it mean for reason to be a “better guide”? Better how? This is just another example of a scientist making unsubstantiated philosophical statements in the name of science. It would be interesting to hear how Krauss would explain what went wrong with “reason” with such well known atheists like Stalin or Hitler. How was “reason” a better guide with those guys? Perhaps Krauss could begin by telling us what he means by “reason” in the first place.

It always amazes me how those who claim the high road of science and scientific reasoning so easily abandon the basic rules of logic and reason when it doesn’t seem to suit their argument. He could start by telling us how he knows scientifically that the properties of the cosmos are such that no deity (assuming a deity exists), could take any action whatsoever that would have empirical consequences in what we call Nature, even in principle. If Krauss has no scientific answer to that question (and he doesn’t), then how does he know that the properties of our cosmos are such that miracles can not take place, even in principle? Just because science tells us how babies are formed and born does not mean that in one instance, at least, something quite extraordinary took place. Just because Krauss and his fellow atheists don’t accept such things as true or even possbile doesn’t mean they aren’t. And appealing to science is of little help to his case, since neither he nor anyone else has come up with a detailed, testable, (and potenitally falsifiable) scientific model that eliminates the possibility of miracles from ever occuring in Nature.

Comments
David, If you had different -- equally contemporaneous -- historical sources about the same event say the English Civil War or maybe the development of Calculus or whatever, and they differed on relatively minor points would that make you more or less inclined to doubt the areas on which they agreed? Suppose if there were several contemporaneous reports with minor inconsistencies but general agreement? At what point would you stop trying to use the petty contradictions to impeach the broader consistencies?tribune7
July 2, 2009
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On a side note does the bible talk about planet X. Or is it the americans that will save us from this one. (Relating to a film there).pkettley
July 2, 2009
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Barb,
“umm, I don’t need to see ALL…”
So you openly admit your ignorance about a large population of religious people and their beliefs. I’ll remember that the next time you start in on how awful the Bible and Christianity are.
I think I'm starting to see that we are either talking a different language or you are so deluded that you only read the words that are palatable to you , skipping the bits that don't make it through your filter that you call 'what the real world should look like'. And it SHOULDN'T look like someone has something convincing to say against your beliefs (that you have ABSOLUTE TRUTH in your belief in god), so you ignore and pretend it was not even there. Barb, have YOU seen ALL religious beliefs, is that not like asking can you count the grains of sand on a beach? Which honest person would answer other than the way I have? and what type of knowledge were you expecting me to have, to claim I am 'ignorant of a large population', if you'd say that of me, then you should say that about most, and by your own words, I bet you have very little understanding of anything outside your beliefs, as it appears you dont even understand your own. Love you!Nnoel
July 2, 2009
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Barb,
Remember, the Bible has to harmonize as a whole. You can’t pick one scripture out and say that it supports “X” unless other scriptures also can be applied as supporting. That’s cherry-picking.
Umm, unless I'm very mistaken, your statement above alludes to CONTRADICTIONS in the bible! Unless it only has ONE thing to say, but it doesn't, the bible talks of MANY things, and in the convosations about MANY things, why would a book without contradictions need to read 'as a whole'. that makes no sense TO ME. Barb, you are a heretic if you claim absolute knowledge, so anytime anybody claims to have an opinion on the topic in the bible, you cannot contradict them, you can only try and persuade them, but claiming absolute knowledge on this topic is claiming you are God, and you are not sir, cause I KNOW (just as you KNOW other stuff), that there is no Zeus, Thor or Jesus. Love you!Nnoel
July 2, 2009
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Hi Barb, I find it atonishing that there is many gods in the same religion, when he is only spoken as to be one. I find it hard to believe that people who follow your god are non-violent when they hang out side gay marriages and protest, when also you practically outrightly disgust the thought of atheists or agnostics. When everyone is an individual and has the free will to believe what they want to believe without being categorised by someone who believes in a god that really has not shown himself in any form other than through the words of a book called the bible. I've read many debates in this article only to find people not actually answering with the truth other than side stepping with another passage from the bible or the slating of other religions, other than your own. You are constantly told by several other writers that you do not answer their questions directly, without babbling on about something that practically has nothing to do with it. Maybe you should step back and think outside the box and then answer, before babbling on. P.S - People only need to believe what they want to believe, not what they are told to believe because someone read it somewhere and it must be true.pkettley
July 2, 2009
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Barb, "take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it (Job 38:12-13) "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed," (Joshua 10:13) If you cannot imagine how these versus could be used as evidence of a flat earth in the centre of the universe, then you have no imagination.
Once again, with feeling: The Bible does not state that the earth is the center of the universe.
In light of the above quote from you, I accuse you of LYING Barb, I am calling you a LIAR! Flat out, demanding that you tell the truth, or stand up as THE ULTIMATE source of all knowledge on the stuff you claim to KNOW! Either admit it is only your opinion, or stand up and proclaim yourself the only true translation of the message in the bible. It is as simple as that! Love you!Nnoel
July 2, 2009
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Barb, That's a pretty loose inerrantism that can have Jesus sentenced to death both after Passover (Mark) and before Passover (John).David Kellogg
July 2, 2009
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Mereologist:” Nothing in your comment explains why the Gospels depict Jesus as dying on different days. Can you explain, in your own words, why you don’tt see this as a contradiction?” I explained this above. Part of the reason that I think is the apostle John’s recall. He probably wrote his gospel many years after the events. “Well, if you aren’t the audience, then why do you even bother reading all of the gospels, much less asserting that they are inerrant?” Stop trolling. I am a Christian and the gospels are obviously relevant to me. “You’re contradicting your own position. If they were free to write what they wanted, regardless of what God dictated to them, then you have no reason to think that the Bible is reliable. On the other hand, if you assume that they willingly wrote what God dictated to them, then that means that God dictated different times to the different writers.” There is no contradiction. They were free to record about Jesus’ life and ministry and were guided by God’s holy spirit in doing so. Is this really the only hang-up that you have about the Bible? The whole point of the gospels is pointing to Jesus as the Messiah. Glad to see that, in the time spent arguing about the time of his death (which was approximately 3 pm on Nisan 14) you completely missed that point. The second point is not objective. The second point ignores the context of what the Bible records and assumes (wrongly) that God condones of the immorality described in the Bible. That’s not objectivity. That’s ignorance. Pkettley: Asked and answered. Try reading my post. A person who worships the God I worship probably wouldn’t resort to violence. My religion is nonpolitical, so what would be the point of forcing others to worship as we do? They’re not “reading the wrong version”. They’re misapplying what they do read. Nnoel: “YOU BELIEVE that the ‘Bible DOES NOT state that the earth is the center of the universe.’ but that is ONLY your belief of the bible, you cannot give me the ABSOLUTE meaning as you can ONLY interpret it, and therefore, when the catholic church threw Galileo out, they did so because THEY BELIEVED the earth WAS the centre, and did so with proof PROVIDED by the bible, whether their proof in the bible was valid, can only be contrasted by YOUR BELIEF, as you CANNOT KNOW.” Once again, with feeling: The Bible does not state that the earth is the center of the universe. Galileo didn’t begin advocting Copernicus’s point about the earth’s revolution until 1609 after he’d perfected his telescope. Conservative philosophers and clergymen felt that the earth’s motion contradicted scripture. Were they right? No. Show me a scripture that states, unequivocally, that the earth doesn’t move. The Bible doesn’t support this view. In this case, the Bible agrees with science. Remember, the Bible has to harmonize as a whole. You can’t pick one scripture out and say that it supports “X” unless other scriptures also can be applied as supporting. That’s cherry-picking. “Umm, to demonstrate how you know ‘God cannot err’, please inform me where you are told that god cannot err.” He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:13-18). “I have heard it said that the bible provides an ABSOLUTE morality that humans can follow (instead of relative morality, which changes as society progresses), but clearly, in this case, the bible verses are either standing up for what they believe (not trying to follow the crowd) and stating that slavery is OK, or it is demonstrating that the bible is NOT a manual for ABSOLUTE morality because in this instance it is just pandering to the public views of the day (slavery is acceptable) and trying to get people to do it better, either way, not good wouldn’t you say?” Again, you completely miss the point. What the Bible records and what the Bible approves of are two different things. Here is a more concise explanation of why slavery was permitted in Israel: God’s Law stated that kidnapping and selling a human was punishable by death. A slave who was maimed by his master would be set free. If a slave died because his master beat him, the master could be punished with death. Women captives could become slaves, or they could be taken as wives. But they were not to be used for mere sexual gratification. The gist of the Law must have led righthearted Israelites to treat slaves with respect and kindness, as if these were hired laborers.—Exodus 20:10; 21:12, 16, 26, 27; Leviticus 22:10, 11; Deuteronomy 21:10-14. Some Jews voluntarily became slaves to their fellow Jews in order to repay debts. This practice protected people from starvation and actually allowed many to recover from poverty. Furthermore, at key junctures in the Jewish calendar, slaves were to be released if they so desired. (Exodus 21:2; Leviticus 25:10; Deuteronomy 15:12) Commenting on these laws regarding slaves, Jewish scholar Moses Mielziner stated that a “slave could never cease to be a man, he was looked upon as a person possessing certain natural human rights, with which the master even could not with impunity interfere.” “So you propose that if EVERYONE reads the same source material there would be no argument over the meaning?” I propose that people who condemn the Bible should at least take the time to read it. “you BELIEVE you are correct, and every other honest person that puts in honest effort (as i’m sure you have) that BELIEVES differently to you, why are they NOT correct but you ARE correct?” The question comes down to, are we doing God’s will? Jesus very neatly outlined what his followers should be doing. Are we doing that? Are we applying the biblical counsel to ‘put on the new personality’? Are we attempting to display ‘the fruitage of the spirit’? Jesus also made it very plain that not everyone claiming to be a Christian really was a Christian (Matthew 7:21-23). “umm, I don’t need to see ALL…” So you openly admit your ignorance about a large population of religious people and their beliefs. I’ll remember that the next time you start in on how awful the Bible and Christianity are. Remember, critical thinking requires evaluation of ALL the evidence. How about if judges just randomly pick the plaintiff’s side or the defendant’s side without listening to both arguments? Is that just and fair? No? But that’s what you’re doing with religion. It doesn’work. My personal beliefs don’t really conflict with science. “As you believe, so should you also not judge others as long as others are not harming anyone.” I don’t. The only harm I see is when people who could potentially be believers are put off by the arrogance and ignorance of atheists/agnostics/whatever that quote from the Skeptics Annotated Bible and decry anything to do with Christianity simply because they are ignorant of the basic tenets of belief.Barb
July 2, 2009
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correction : (for instance you _shouldn't_ judge others that seek assisted suicide)Nnoel
July 2, 2009
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Narb @ 54 : Again, the 'Fact' I'm referring to is the FACT that people interpret the bible differently from you and have different beliefs based on the SAME source material. I don't know how plain I can write that, it is a fact that people believe differently to you.
If I mistranslate a post you make or take your quote out of context, Nnoel, is it your fault or mine? It’s not that hard to figure out.
We both human, we both using imperfect communication techniques, are you judging me or taking all the blame? I dont get it.
Nnoel, I am asking you to utilize the critical thinking ability that you have. If someone misquotes you, it is their fault. This is logical and correct.
However, you seem to have it in your mind that if anyone misquotes the Bible it is automatically God’s (or Christianity’s) fault. This is illogical.
OK, I have studied a bit of NLP, and its all about effective communication, and the first thing it teaches is that if you are using language, your understanding of the language may not be the other persons understanding. No one is at fault in these situations, it is just a fact of the communication method you are using, and while some words and phrases may have obvious different meanings to different persons, ALL language is interpreted, you interpret your meaning INTO language (create the sentences etc to say), and the other person interprets your language into your meaning (creates meaning from the sentences) and this process in inherently flawed. So you misquoting me is NOT automatically YOUR fault. See, that was my meaning, I probably put that into language incorrectly, and whose to say I'm finally got my meaning correct even now??
Galileo got excommunicated by the church for saying that the earth went round the sun, ask the church what evidence they used.
Do your own research, Nnoel. I recommend a book called “Galileo Goes to Jail” which discusses this subject more thoroughly in an essay. The book is not ID-friendly, if that is a concern.
And again, this is the fault of religious leaders who misinterpreted the Bible. Repetition for emphasis: the Bible DOES NOT state that the earth is the center of the universe. Period.
I must correct you, and if you do not humbly accept my correction I would not know how else to say it... YOU BELIEVE that the 'Bible DOES NOT state that the earth is the center of the universe.' but that is ONLY your belief of the bible, you cannot give me the ABSOLUTE meaning as you can ONLY interpret it, and therefore, when the catholic church threw Galileo out, they did so because THEY BELIEVED the earth WAS the centre, and did so with proof PROVIDED by the bible, whether their proof in the bible was valid, can only be contrasted by YOUR BELIEF, as you CANNOT KNOW.
The Bible is inerrant. Let’s first spell out logically why the Bible can’t have errors: 1. God cannot err. 2. The Bible is the word of God. 3. Therefore, the Bible cannot err.
Circular logic
Try again:
This is a valid syllogism; if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true.
Umm, to demonstrate how you know 'God cannot err', please inform me where you are told that god cannot err.
Salvery is wrong, if you give a manual on how to rape people politely, I dont think it would be well received.
The Bible indicates that there is more than one type of slavery. Humanity is described as being “slaves to sin.” Does that mean that we are all literally shackled? No. It refers to being enslaved to one’s desires to the exclusion of other more important things.
The Bible is obviously not a manual to rape people politely, and I am not sure where that came from. If the Bible is incorrect, why did God allow for the release of slaves under the Mosaic Law covenant?
I was using the 'rape manual' in place of 'slavery manual', as you say the bible states how to treat your slaves wisely and fairly, well slavery is wrong just like rape is wrong, and it a fair comparison in my view. I have heard it said that the bible provides an ABSOLUTE morality that humans can follow (instead of relative morality, which changes as society progresses), but clearly, in this case, the bible verses are either standing up for what they believe (not trying to follow the crowd) and stating that slavery is OK, or it is demonstrating that the bible is NOT a manual for ABSOLUTE morality because in this instance it is just pandering to the public views of the day (slavery is acceptable) and trying to get people to do it better, either way, not good wouldn't you say?
Your misunderstanding is completely and utterly due to your not examining the evidence for yourself. Don’t blame God or anyone else for your lack of faith and understanding, Nnoel.
So you propose that if EVERYONE reads the same source material there would be no argument over the meaning?
‘Facts’ refers to people that have different opinions about the [T]ruth, so very many versions of [T]ruth is not debatable (cleared that one up last post, either didn’t read it or your cherry picking :P)
Facts =/= opinions, Nnoel.
Do you presume to debate someone over 2+2=4? Or that the earth revolves around the sun? Those are facts and they are indisputable.
You say so, others like you would argue with you, I think you all arguing over an imaginary bus thats taking you all to heaven)
Non sequitur.
I was trying to show you others believe not as you do but read the same source material as you do. And I don't believe at all while I read the same source material, so you must admit at least 3 different opinions of the same source material
History is written by the victors, science cannot be trusted 100%, you BELIEVE you are 100% correct in your choice of religious beliefs, and wont admit it, or will, but only to a very small degree of error.
Yes, I do believe that I am correct. Why? I have solid evidence to back up my beliefs.
you BELIEVE you are correct, and every other honest person that puts in honest effort (as i'm sure you have) that BELIEVES differently to you, why are they NOT correct but you ARE correct? I think you'd be debating them for hours to no avail. And because of this personal private interpretation, these personal private beliefs should not be lauded over anyone else (for instance you should judge others that seek assisted suicide)
Not all Christians believe in the concept of hell. Jesus himself stated that he was the only way to God. The only way to be sure is to examine the evidence for yourself, use your critical thinking ability, and make an informed decision. You stated before that we should examine Buddhism. Have you made a study of the world’s religions, say, in college? If not, why not?
I have not studied in college, because it was not available to me. I have however attempted to get authentic views of these other religions 'from the horses mouth' as much as possible, as I find if a westerner attempts to explain an eastern religion, the 'paradigm' used would be of a western bent (in this case we all know I'm referring to Christianity), and therefore most of the meaning is lost.
Self Correcting means incorporating knowledge from varied sources where ever value is found, but I’m not seen much of that, I might be wrong about the non-self-correcting nature, but the Christianity I’ve seen certainly isn’t
You haven’t seen all of Christianity and therefore your argument dies because it is a hasty generalization.
umm, I don't need to see ALL, I have seen a large majority, and if your version of Christianity allows your version of Christianity to change then soon many will not call your Christianity Christianity any longer. BUT, you define your OWN religious beliefs, and are entitled to label yourself as you see fit, but please place yourself in those others shoes as they label you a non-christian, and realise at that point what they are doing to you, you are doing to others (judging them by their beliefs, when beliefs are completely personal)
lol, you choose what to believe, and your entitled to that freedom, but dont expect others not to believe that hell is not full of homosexuals and people that eat shellfish
So, in other words, if I tell you that I don’t believe in hell, you will continue to assume that I do?
OK, I don't know when I stated what I believe you believe, but as I've said, it is a FACT that some others than yourself DO believe in hell, and the FACT that you don't believe in hell makes me think I could introduce you to people that will tell you you are going to hell. You clearly stated you don't believe in hell, so in others words, you don't believe in hell but others do!
Talk about being unreasonable.
This whole article was about separation of science and religion, and I have attempted to show you the inconsistencies between yourself and others, to make the point that YOUR beliefs are COMPLETELY personal, and if such PERSONAL BELIEFS are to be incorporated into science, would not be a good move. As you believe, so should you also not judge others as long as others are not harming anyone. If your definition of 'harming' incorporated the fact that you believe science in it's current form drives people away from 'god', well I can see your dilemma, but don't worry, others read the same bible as you do and they believe science is doing ok. Take comfort from that if you can. Love you! P.S. I do not intend to reply in this thread again, I've made my point as clear as I can, but if you cant see my point or I've still not explained it correctly, then I dont think I can make any further progress. But that isn't anyone's fault!Nnoel
July 2, 2009
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Hi Barb, Maybe I'll reword what I said. If two people worshipped or believed in the same god (THE SAME ONE YOU BELIEVE IN), however one person is an accountant and goes to church and all that, while the other (a suicide bomber) blows up a plane in the name of god. Is that not down to INTERPRETATION, or were they reading the wrong version of the bible? I want you to answer without diverting round the question, applying it to a different religion or god.pkettley
July 2, 2009
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mere, "1) a person who assumes that unlike every other book in the world, the Bible has no errors, and who twists and tortures the evidence to fit that preconception, even ignoring outright contradictions like the one I’ve pointed out, or 2) somebody who looks at the book, sees the many contradictions (not to mention the immorality), and concludes based on the evidence that the Bible cannot be the inerrant word of a perfect God?" Your either/or scenario is rather minimalist. To ignore scholarship and prefer the aruments of amateurs is not to do justice to this issue. I would suggest you do some more study into the subject for which you don't appear to be well grounded. I would also suggest that you look at the scholarship from both sides of the issue before determining that you are right. Bultman, Schlatter, Bruce, Wright, Ehrman, Blomberg, Schweitzer, Metzger, Wenham, Davies, Sanders, Tov, Robinson - the list goes on - have contributed an enormous amount of scholarship to the Bible - from many different perspectives.CannuckianYankee
July 2, 2009
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Contradictions? Just as there are websites that list "contradictions" in the bible, there are also websites that answer the "contradictions." Here are a few: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b08.html http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-contradictions.htm I think the third link above is the best I've seen so far, but there are hundreds of these sites on both sides of the issue. Now I want to point out that none of the above sites contain the works of scholars in the field, but neither do the sites that contain the lists of contradictions. For a more informed view of issues regarding the bible I suggest reading the scholarship over the past say 50 years or so. One thing to keep in mind is that much of the content on the contradiction lists are not contradictions at all, just obvious quote mines - examples of forcing the data to prove the point. Of course there are a lot of difficulites with the scriptures - one has to be blind not to admit that. However, I am satisfied that whatever I may see as incongruent has an explanation beyond what skeptics may try to lead me to believe. One of the best examples is the Quirinius Census in Luke. In Luke chapter 2 it is mentioned that Jesus was born at the time of the 1st census of Quirinius, when he was Governor in Syria. Also, Jesus was born prior to the death of Herod in 6 BC. This seemingly contradicts with Josephus, who mentioned a census by Quirinius while Governor, which took place 10 years later, in 6 AD. The NetBible (notes) http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Luk&chapter=2&verse=2 states: "This term could simply refer to an administrative role Quirinius held as opposed to being governor." The Greek word translated as "governor" is hgemoneuontov, which can mean any number of positions of authority, including governor. It is most commonly translated as governor in this passage - for most English translations. Luke mentions the 1st Census of Quirinius. Now this implies that there were more censuses conducted by Quirinius, and that Luke was refering to one of them. Furthermore, the word for Governor can be translated loosly as having a position of governance - and if you look at the historical record, Quirinius held positions of governance in Syria before his official Governorship of the province. Therefore - while this may seem like a contradiction, it is not necessarily so, and it would be improper to force one on it. By all other accounts Luke was a good historian, so it is unlikely that he would not have been careful with this information. Now this is perhaps one of the more troubling passages of scripture - most of the other "contradictions" have much clearer explanations - due to the misinformed nature of the ones assuming a contradiction. Of course, that is not the only explanation for this problem, but is one of the more common ones.CannuckianYankee
July 2, 2009
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Barb:
I explained all of this above. Try reading my post.
Barb, Nothing in your comment explains why the Gospels depict Jesus as dying on different days. Can you explain, in your own words, why you don'tt see this as a contradiction?
Why would God dictate the exact same words to all the gospel writers? They were writing to different audiences, for one thing.
Well, if you aren't the audience, then why do you even bother reading all of the gospels, much less asserting that they are inerrant?
They also had free will.
You're contradicting your own position. If they were free to write what they wanted, regardless of what God dictated to them, then you have no reason to think that the Bible is reliable. On the other hand, if you assume that they willingly wrote what God dictated to them, then that means that God dictated different times to the different writers. Either way, you've got a problem.
The fact that you refuse to examine the evidence objectively counts against you. You’ve already made up your (closed) mind and no amount of evidence is going to get through. A pity.
You might want to look in a mirror as you say that. Who is being objective: 1) a person who assumes that unlike every other book in the world, the Bible has no errors, and who twists and tortures the evidence to fit that preconception, even ignoring outright contradictions like the one I've pointed out, or 2) somebody who looks at the book, sees the many contradictions (not to mention the immorality), and concludes based on the evidence that the Bible cannot be the inerrant word of a perfect God? The first person is wishing the evidence away. The second person is looking at it objectively.mereologist
July 1, 2009
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Part of the reason comes also from the time frame of when the accounts were written down. I explained all of this above. Try reading my post. Why would God dictate the exact same words to all the gospel writers? They were writing to different audiences, for one thing. They also had free will. The fact that you refuse to examine the evidence objectively counts against you. You've already made up your (closed) mind and no amount of evidence is going to get through. A pity.Barb
July 1, 2009
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Barb, As David points out, you haven't addressed the fact that the gospels have Jesus dying not just at different hours, but on different days. As for the time of day, if "God wrote the Bible in the same way that a businessman would dictate a letter to a secretary," as you claim, then why didn't he dictate the same time to all of the gospel authors? Do you think he wanted inerrantists to look bad?mereologist
July 1, 2009
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Did you even bother to read my response? Or have you already made up your mind and no amount of evidence will convince you?Barb
July 1, 2009
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Barb, was Jesus crucified before or after Passover? What you call "doing your homework" looks a look like "covering your ___" to me.David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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David Kellogg writes: “That’s an amusing image for fans of Mad Men.” Heh, maybe so. But it’s a good analogy. “Look around.” At what in particular? If you mean the fact that the world is morally and physically decaying, that doesn’t surprise me or any other Christian. I don’t doubt that bad things happen. The Bible states that things would advance “from bad to worse”; both Jesus and Paul alluded to this.Barb
July 1, 2009
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Mereologist: Many explanations have been offered by Bible commentators and translators. Several say it is a scribal error in John’s Gospel, the correct reading being “third hour”. There is no evidence of such an error, however. Some contend that John figured time as we do today, and that by “sixth hour” John meant 6 a.m., and not 12 noon, as would ordinarily be indicated by “sixth hour” in Palestine at that time. But if John meant 6 a.m. by “sixth hour”, why would Jesus have been resting at Jacob’s fountain, tired out from a journey, at that early hour? (John 4:6) Noon would be a reasonable time for that, and was doubtless the time meant by John when he used the expression “sixth hour”. One source even went so far as to say that by “sixth hour” John meant the sixth hour of the night, or midnight. But this does not allow time for the many events to take place, some of which did not even start till daylight. Consider all that did happen and the time it would take, and you will see that even the view that it was 6 a.m. fails to allow the necessary time. During Jesus’ last night on earth as a human creature he celebrated the Passover and then instituted the Memorial. This was followed by an extended discussion, then his betrayal and arrest and trials before Annas, Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin. At these trials fruitless searches were made for false witnesses, Jesus was questioned, slapped and maltreated, all of which must have consumed considerable time. When taken to the Sanhedrin for final examination and decision, the time is spoken of as “when it had become morning” (Matt. 27:1, NW), “immediately at dawn” (Mark 15:1, NW), “when it became day” (Luke 22:66, NW), and “early in the day” (John 18:28, NW). From here, Jesus then went before Pilate and then the Sanhedrin. Some scholars claim that the Jews divided the day into four parts, and that the expression “third hour” covered the second part, from 9 a.m. to 12 n., when the “sixth hour” would mark the beginning of the third part. This would solve the difficulties, since Mark’s “third hour” could coincide with John’s “about the sixth hour”. However, there are no solid grounds for thinking four such three-hour periods were used to indicate time of day when Jesus was on earth. Jesus, after mentioning the ninth hour, refers to the eleventh, showing he did not view the ninth hour as covering from the ninth to twelfth, or our 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. (Matt. 20:5, 6) Certainly John figured on an hourly time division, mentioning the tenth hour (1:39) and the seventh hour (4:52), and not just using ninth and sixth hours respectively, as he would have done if he used any such claimed four larger divisions of the day. The explanation that seems logical and unstrained is this. The days were divided into twelve hours, running from sunrise to sunset, or about 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. (John 11:9) Not dividing the hours into minutes, the Jews would say it was the third hour until the fourth started, just as today one may say he is thirty years old, though actually he may be thirty years nine months. Hence Mark’s third hour could be close to the fourth’s start, or 10 a.m. John does not claim to be accurate, saying that “it was about the sixth hour”. It could have been 11:30 a.m., or even earlier. The day was one of great emotional strain on Jesus’ followers, and they would hardly be calmly noting the relatively unimportant exact time of events. Also remember that they did not have watches handily strapped to their wrists in those days. Time was doubtless generally calculated by observing the sun, which could have been obscured by haze or clouds, and at best would be only an approximation. It should also be remembered that John wrote his account some 65 years after these events happened. So all of these factors allow much leeway to absorb the time discrepancy in the two accounts. Another point that may bear on the matter: the scourging or whipping was considered a part of the process of impalement. It was so terribly cruel that sometimes the victim died under it, and it may have been severe enough in Jesus’ case to necessitate getting another man to help bear the stake, after Jesus started with it alone. (Luke 23:26; John 19:17) If this scourging was the start of the impalement procedure, some time would elapse between its beginning and the actual nailing to the stake. Different persons might give different times for the impalement, depending on the particular stage of the procedure when they might note time. So many factors can account for the difference in the records, and the very fact that there is a reconcilable difference proves that there was no studied effort on John’s part to make his account exactly harmonize with the earlier one by Mark, as he most surely would have done if John were faking the record. This is what I mean by "doing your homework" biblically speaking. This is exegetical research and anyone is capable of it. The fact that those who impugn the Bible don't bother looking for explanations to supposed contradictions doesn't make the Bible errant.Barb
July 1, 2009
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With 100,000,000 Chinese converted or converting to Christianity, do you think that his life had an impact? From a Christian perspective, what was the fate of the much larger number of Chinese who would have had the misfortune of dying before the Good News of Christ's sacrifice came to their country?kappa
July 1, 2009
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To those who accept the Bible as inerrant: how do you rationalize contradictions like the one I pointed out in this earlier comment?mereologist
July 1, 2009
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Excession, Are you trying to vilify me? I don't want that website linked, not because it exposes a moderation policy, but because most of those people have been banned, and I do not want to give them an audience here. You're welcome to join them if you want, just keep up your tactics.Clive Hayden
July 1, 2009
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A list of verboten websites would be nice.David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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mereologist, Do not link to After The Bar Closes.Clive Hayden
July 1, 2009
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Correction: "I have a very vague sense of God."David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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God wrote the Bible in the same way that a businessman would dictate a letter to a secretary.
That's an amusing image for fans of Mad Men.
In what way did God err?
Look around. :-) Honestly, I don't know. I don't have a very vague sense of God, so I'm probably the wrong person to provide any answer on that score.
Why do you think Paul didn’t write
1. Doesn't sound like the genuine letters in vocabulary or style. 2. Situation shows a more developed and institutional church. 3. No sense of imminent apocalypse as in the genuine letters. No longer living in the "last days." Etc. I'm just giving you my sense of what mainstream Biblical scholarship says. I might be wrong, and it should be said that there's a slightly better case for Pauline authorship 2 Tim than for 1 Tim or Titus. I would say 2 Tim is written by an admirer of Paul's and falls in the category of "pious fraud."David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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pKettley: "If two people worshipped or believed in the same god, however one person is an accountant and goes to church and all that, while the other (a suicide bomber) blows up a plane in the name of god. Is that not down to INTERPRETATION, or were they reading the wrong version of the bible?" I would say interpretation. There are verses in the Quran which (if applied by fanatical muslims) would encourage jihad. I believe it was either Time or Newsweek magazine that did an article in 1999 regarding misapplication of scriptural texts. The Bible does not encourage or condone violence in any form. From what I have read and studied, neither does the Quran. "Did god write the bible, or did someone write it for him using their INTERPRETATION of the gods word?" God wrote the Bible in the same way that a businessman would dictate a letter to a secretary. Have there been misinterpretations of scripture? Of course; humans aren't perfect, not by a long shot. Is it fairly easy to find and correct misinterpretations? Yes, it is. But few are willing (as this debate proves) to actually sit down, read, and compare to see what's correct and what's incorrect. David Kellogg:"“The Bible” didn’t exist at the time the Bible was written, so the statement “The Bible clearly identifies itself as the word of God” is wrong. I’d question the second premise and probably the first. But hey, that’s just me." In what way did God err? There are repeated references to God as the author of the Bible and these can be found throughout the Hebrew and Greek scriptures (see also 1 Timothy 3:16,17). Why do you think Paul didn't write this?Barb
July 1, 2009
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Nnoel, You say that, and the people that misquote say that, who am I too believe?? You have a brain. Use it. Seriously, critical thinking ability requires you to evaluate information as it comes your way, ferret out any potential or actual biases from the source of the information and then make a decision. If I mistranslate a post you make or take your quote out of context, Nnoel, is it your fault or mine? It’s not that hard to figure out. We both human, we both using imperfect communication techniques, are you judging me or taking all the blame? I dont get it. Nnoel, I am asking you to utilize the critical thinking ability that you have. If someone misquotes you, it is their fault. This is logical and correct. However, you seem to have it in your mind that if anyone misquotes the Bible it is automatically God's (or Christianity's) fault. This is illogical. Galileo got excommunicated by the church for saying that the earth went round the sun, ask the church what evidence they used. Do your own research, Nnoel. I recommend a book called "Galileo Goes to Jail" which discusses this subject more thoroughly in an essay. The book is not ID-friendly, if that is a concern. And again, this is the fault of religious leaders who misinterpreted the Bible. Repetition for emphasis: the Bible DOES NOT state that the earth is the center of the universe. Period. The Bible is inerrant. Let’s first spell out logically why the Bible can’t have errors: 1. God cannot err. 2. The Bible is the word of God. 3. Therefore, the Bible cannot err. Circular logic Try again: This is a valid syllogism; if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true. Salvery is wrong, if you give a manual on how to rape people politely, I dont think it would be well received. The Bible indicates that there is more than one type of slavery. Humanity is described as being "slaves to sin." Does that mean that we are all literally shackled? No. It refers to being enslaved to one's desires to the exclusion of other more important things. The Bible is obviously not a manual to rape people politely, and I am not sure where that came from. If the Bible is incorrect, why did God allow for the release of slaves under the Mosaic Law covenant? Well played, good cheap shot sir! You'll get over it. My misunderstanding was created by your god according to your beliefs, he created me this way (he created everything), and because I [try] and apply my intelligence, I’m sentencing myself, but I was still built in a way that I would invariably do so, (like a self descructing robot, bad robot!) Your misunderstanding is completely and utterly due to your not examining the evidence for yourself. Don't blame God or anyone else for your lack of faith and understanding, Nnoel. ‘Facts’ refers to people that have different opinions about the [T]ruth, so very many versions of [T]ruth is not debatable (cleared that one up last post, either didn’t read it or your cherry picking :P) Facts =/= opinions, Nnoel. Do you presume to debate someone over 2+2=4? Or that the earth revolves around the sun? Those are facts and they are indisputable. You say so, others like you would argue with you, I think you all arguing over an imaginary bus thats taking you all to heaven) Non sequitur. History is written by the victors, science cannot be trusted 100%, you BELIEVE you are 100% correct in your choice of religious beliefs, and wont admit it, or will, but only to a very small degree of error. Yes, I do believe that I am correct. Why? I have solid evidence to back up my beliefs. This whole blog is an attempt to get science to self correct Religion can be self correcting, when will Christianity self correct that jesus is NOT the only way to heaven? Ludicrous suggestion because Christianity is not self correcting (special place in hell and all that) Not all Christians believe in the concept of hell. Jesus himself stated that he was the only way to God. The only way to be sure is to examine the evidence for yourself, use your critical thinking ability, and make an informed decision. You stated before that we should examine Buddhism. Have you made a study of the world's religions, say, in college? If not, why not? Self Correcting means incorporating knowledge from varied sources where ever value is found, but I’m not seen much of that, I might be wrong about the non-self-correcting nature, but the Christianity I’ve seen certainly isn’t You haven't seen all of Christianity and therefore your argument dies because it is a hasty generalization. lol, you choose what to believe, and your entitled to that freedom, but dont expect others not to believe that hell is not full of homosexuals and people that eat shellfish So, in other words, if I tell you that I don't believe in hell, you will continue to assume that I do? Talk about being unreasonable.Barb
July 1, 2009
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If insults and sarcasm are reasons for deletion, Clive, you'll have to start paying more attention to your side.David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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