Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Confessions of a Design Heretic

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Those of you who’ve followed my posts and comments will have picked up that my view of Intelligent Design is pretty complicated. On the one hand, I defend design inferences, even strong design inferences. I’m entirely comfortable with questioning Darwinism (if that view still has enough content to identify it as a clear position, anyway), and have a downright dismissive view of both naturalism (if that view… etc) and atheism. I regularly see the ID position butchered, mangled and misrepresented by its detractors, most of whom should and probably do know better.

On the flipside, I don’t think ID (or for that matter, no-ID) is science, even if I reason that if no-ID is science then so is ID. My personal leaning has always been towards theistic evolution, and I see evolution as yet another instance of design rather than something which runs in opposition to it – a view which I know some ID proponents share, but certainly not all. I think non-scientific arguments for and inferences to design have considerable power, and see little reason to elevate particular arguments simply because some insist they’re “scientific”.

Here’s another part of that flipside, and the subject of today’s post. One of the more prominent ID arguments hinges on the trichotomy of Chance, Necessity, and Design. The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance, and I see Necessity as subsumable under Design.

Let’s start with the more straightforward issue first: Necessity and design. I think a problem straightaway is that design presupposes necessity, at least in the form of law – and the type of law/necessity you have serves as a limiting factor on design. But more than that, law is implemented and used in our own designs – you need only look at how software is designed and created to see man-made law at work. Likewise, the nature of physical laws of our universe is itself an open question, a thing which has to be explained. It would be enough to point out the mere possibility of “design” as an explanation of these laws to kick some dirt on contrast of necessity and design. The fact that we have intelligent agents implementing laws – arguably comparable laws – in software, systems and designs should be enough to give additional pause.

So what about chance? Well, let’s try to nail down the appropriate definition of chance here: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind. I actually think that’s pretty straightforward, but let’s note what this definition is not identical to: The claim that outcomes were, largely or in part, the result of natural or material forces. It’s entirely possible for intelligent agents to foresee, intend, and orchestrate these outcomes, whether via direct intervention or well in advance (“front-loading”). Nor is the claim identical to “events and outcomes that were the result of accumulations of (small or large) changes over time”. Once again, such outcomes are entirely compatible with their being foreseen, directed, and intended by a mind, both in advance or directly.

Now, I think this is what many people who play the ‘chance, necessity or design’ card typically mean when they oppose chance to design. (I’m sure other people could go with another definition – but for our purposes I think I’m giving a fair view.) The problem is that, if this is what is meant by chance, then it’s not obvious that “chance” really exists to begin with. That’s not to say someone can’t assume that it exists, or that they can’t mount some kind of argument for the existence of chance based on whatever presuppositions or standards. People can assume whatever they like, and they’re certainly capable of arguing for just about anything. But while design can be verified by first-person experience (just design something), and law is both subsumable under design as well as generally verifiable (just observe regularity), chance – the sort of chance I’m talking about – is, and may well forever remain, a metaphysical assumption. For all we know, and for all science can tell us, this thing may as well not exist.

I want to stress: To question chance in the manner I’m speaking is not to question, say.. the existence of a gaussian distribution, or of uncorrelated patterns, or of any particular patterns at all. A mind could foresee or even determine a gaussian distribution. A mind could create or intend an uncorrelated pattern. But the pattern itself won’t get you where you need to go – not without, ironically enough, a Design Filter. Even Dembski asserts that his DF is incapable of ruling out design in cases where his filter does not go off – but the inability to determine the presence or lack of design in these mundane cases places the very existence of chance in these cases open to question. This doesn’t mean that chance is demonstrated not to exist – only that its existence is one of mere logical possibility. And that ain’t much.

Oddly enough, I think the DF – or investigations similar to the DF – only heightens my point. At least some of the events and outcomes we see in our universe are the result of intention, of guidance, of mind. In principle, most – even all – events and outcomes we see in our universe could be the result of these things, and as our technology grows our own capabilities become more and more incredible on this front. With this in mind, at least from my point of view, I see little reason to treat ‘chance’ in the sense I wrote about in this entry as more than an interesting and remote logical possibility, an extrascientific posit that doesn’t have much to commend it.

Comments
Mung:
Mung: “As you would say, if God intended the ball to land on the red 16, the ball would land on the red 16.”
Do you have room for a view where the ball may fall into r-16 generally in accordance with a random statistical pattern but where -- e.g. in answer to prayer for guidance through casting lots -- God may occasionally specifically intervene for good purposes of his own? Where also, the statistical law -- even randomness is lawlike in this cosmos! -- has room in it for noisiness of observed outcomes and the interventions just described are going to be rare enough not to disturb the operations of the law for general purposes? Remember, in the presence of noise causing bias and scatter in results, experimental data is consistent with particular theories, it does not strictly "prove" them. For that matter, the overall logic of abduction has in it the issue of affirming the consequent so that we are dealing with empirical support not proof in scientific warrant. (Roughly, T => O, O so T is like saying If Tom is a cat then he is an animal, he is an animal, so he must be a cat. Tom could be a pig.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
05:14 AM
5
05
14
AM
PDT
Morning Lizzie, You said: "But, for example, mutations are not “drawn from a flat distribution”. Some may be very much more likely than others." Are you saying then that the set of mutations that led to a single-celled common ancestor evolving into human beings were actually "very much more likely" than those that didn't occur? If so, how can you make this claim without begging the question?Chris Doyle
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
03:14 AM
3
03
14
AM
PDT
Anyhoo, presumably we now all agree that more than one die will give a non-flat distribution? There's a nice applet here, if anyone is really in doubt: http://www.stat.sc.edu/~west/javahtml/CLT.html but I don't expect anyone is.Elizabeth Liddle
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
03:02 AM
3
03
02
AM
PDT
...any fair reading would come to the same conclusion. Then I don't think you understand the reader's responsibility in giving a fair reading. You seem to think its about the personal capacity to recite the words then stomp your foot on the ground in protest. That strategy works in some instances, but I'm not sure this is one of them. In any case, thats not your problem. Your problem is that it was pointed out to you that SG (in a fair reading) was referring to the mechanics of a thrown cube, even if he stated it in terms of the numbers painted on that cube. You ignored that observation. Well ... This is where the humility part comes in. You show me someone batting 1000, and I'll show you someone that has a right to bitch about the little stuff.Upright BiPed
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
02:32 AM
2
02
32
AM
PDT
It's an interesting example, though. The probability distribution for throws from a single die is flat - all throws are equiprobable. But the probability distribution for throw totals from to dice is not flat - it has a peak and two tails. And the more dice you have, the more the pdf resembles a gaussian distribution. This is where some of the confusion about the role of stochastic processes comes in - people often assume that "random" means "drawn from a flat probability distribution" (and sometimes the word is used in that sense). But, for example, mutations are not "drawn from a flat distribution". Some may be very much more likely than others. This means that what is unpredictable at the level of a single event (like the throw of two dice, or even one) is highly predictable, statistically, in aggregate. And this is why separating "natural" causal factors into "Chance" and "Necessity" is not helpful, IMO (and is where I take issue with Monod). We can predict with high precision what the proportion of heads to tails will be in 100 coin tosses, even though our prediction for a single toss is totally uninformative.Elizabeth Liddle
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
02:13 AM
2
02
13
AM
PDT
How is it that one can reason with such a person? You mean other than a fair reading? Well okay. One thing I've heard that works is to utilize the somewhat lost art of humility. If I was in a conversation with StephenB about rolling dice, and he said something about a seven coming up, then I would immediate think he was talking about two dice instead of a dice. It would not be a stretch for me to ask for a clarification, even if I was a smartass about it. What I would not do is think him an imbecile, and then ridicule him about there only being six sides to a die. If you have other issues that cause you to see it otherwise, then I don't know about them.Upright BiPed
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
01:16 AM
1
01
16
AM
PDT
StephenB Not all numbers have an equal probability of coming up. The number seven, for example, is more likely to come up than any other individuall number. However, the dice should be fair, meaning that all numbers should be given an equal chance to come up. The dice should not be loaded to favor some numbers over others. OK....you clearly do not understand basic probabilities.Acipenser
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
12:40 AM
12
12
40
AM
PDT
StephenB:
Mung, as of now, the administrators are putting up with your trollish behavior. But you had better not show up on a thread of mine.
Oh my. ok. sure. I consider myself warned. So your former threats were just barking dog with no teeth? Your former offer of charity was just you posturing? StephenB:
I am going to be charitable here and assume that you are getting a little rattled and that you didn’t really mean to purposely tell an outright lie. So, if you offer a quick apology for inadvertently attributing your comment to me, all will be well. I will even give you a pass on this...
Charity is not something that you can offer to make yourself seem magnanimous. Pretty sure Jesus had a few choice things to say about people like you. So I decline your offer. Ban me.Mung
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
12:24 AM
12
12
24
AM
PDT
"And I know what’s coming: You’ll claim that I didn’t explain it. I point to my past comments – I’ve explained it, and been judicious in what I’ve said. Miss it at your leisure." Darwinists and 'atheists' aren't the only people who play "Deny-and-Demand." Sadly.Ilion
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
12:17 AM
12
12
17
AM
PDT
StephenB, Again, I am asking you to tell me why there is a problem. I think we've hit the point where I've explained this so many times that to explain it one more time won't do any good. And I know what's coming: You'll claim that I didn't explain it. I point to my past comments - I've explained it, and been judicious in what I've said. Miss it at your leisure. Does this mean that you are now going to tell me why drawing a design inference to cheating [Meyer’s example], or a design inference to plagiarism, or a design inference to murder, or a design inference to burglary, or a design inference about an ancient hunter’s spear, all of which indicate some kind of “intent, qualifies as intruding metaphysics in science. Or am I to wait until a later time for an answer. Not what I said, and you know it. I made it clear where my problem lied: With blanket statements, unqualified, about the lack of intention, guidance, or foresight in nature. I've pointed out that these statements can be easily qualified and that typically they are, but given the context of physical science more attention is needed. Especially when we're talking about detecting or not detecting design. Trying to spin this into me claiming that inferring that a 'design inference to plagiarism is intruding metaphysics' is downright silly. Frantic flailing in defense of an idea I'm not even attacking. ID critics ARE guilty of injecting metaphysics into science and ID scientists are NOT. Yes, I am bothered by the fact that Darwinists and TEs inject metaphysics into science, but I am not bothered about ID scientists doing it because they do not do it. With respect to Monod, he died before ID science was born. Who gives a crap if he died before ID science was born? What, it was understandable he'd make his claims back then? Bull! It was garbage then and it's garbage now. It's also a big problem, arguably the larger problem when it comes to this entire topic. But by all means, let's ignore that entirely. Because I objected to a statement from Meyer on the grounds that as it was written I had a problem with how it plainly read, and apparently that means that I'm engaged in some full-on assault of ID. I'm waiting for the day where Dembski and Behe publicly disagree on an ID related claim - I have a feeling heads will explode.nullasalus
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
12:12 AM
12
12
12
AM
PDT
StephenB:
Will someone please tell this incredible nitwit ...
The insult. I detect a pattern. Predictable behavior.Mung
July 11, 2011
July
07
Jul
11
11
2011
12:00 AM
12
12
00
AM
PDT
“I think a fair reading of StephenB’s example, was that a fair die, as a mechanical object (a cube) subject to physical law, does not favor revealing any one of its sides any more than any other.”
And yet earlier in this same thread we have nullasalus speaking of a single die followed by StephenB claiming a 7 could come up. How? A standard die has 6 faces. Each face has a number on it, from 1 through 6. How could tossing that die reveal a seven?
nullasalus: “I have a die in my hand. If I were to ask God ‘So, what number will come up when I roll?’ would God’s reply be, “I’m not sure. They all have an equal chance of occurring, after all.”?” StephenB: No, if seven is going to come up, God will say seven is going to come up.
On six sided die? Well, it is GOD we're talking about. If God intended a seven to come up, even though it was a six sided die with no seven on any face, a seven would in fact come up. How is it that one can reason with such a person?Mung
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
11:02 PM
11
11
02
PM
PDT
There's really no upside in arguing with people who will say anything and then claim that they said no such thing or would never say any such thing. StephenB put forth a post in which he asserted he was presenting to the readers "Meyer's own words." Really, do we need to go over this? I dropped it back then, but he now wants to make an issue of it. StephenB:
Here are Meyer’s own words: “The attribute inherent in and communicated by alternative sequences or arrangements of something that produce specific effects.” here
To me, that looks like Meyer quoting from Webster's dictionary. To assert that the words "are Meyer’s own words" is perverse and dishonest. In context, StephenB offered up Meyer's definition of information. When that definition was challenged, StephenB offered up yet another definition of information, in effect saying that the earlier definition offered by StephenB was false. Meyer refuting Meyer. And then he blames me for pointing it out. And then, after I drop the whole thing, he decides he wants to make an issue of it.Mung
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
10:51 PM
10
10
51
PM
PDT
--Upright Biped: "I think a fair reading of StephenB’s example, was that a fair die, as a mechanical object (a cube) subject to physical law, does not favor revealing any one of its sides any more than any other." Yes, thank you.StephenB
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
10:51 PM
10
10
51
PM
PDT
---Acipenser: "Well if I recall correctly StephenB stated that all numbers between 2-12 have an equal probability of coming in in any roll of two dice." Not all numbers have an equal probability of coming up. The number seven, for example, is more likely to come up than any other individuall number. However, the dice should be fair, meaning that all numbers should be given an equal chance to come up. The dice should not be loaded to favor some numbers over others.StephenB
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
10:48 PM
10
10
48
PM
PDT
Mung wrote: “As you would say, if God intended the ball to land on the red 16, the ball would land on the red 16.” I wrote: “I have never said any such thing or anything even close to that.” Mung offers this quote as evidence that I said if God intended the ball to land on the red 16, the ball would land on the red 16. “Did God intend to create homo-sapiens as homo-sapiens? Did He intend homo-sapiens to possess an immortal soul and did that immortal soul come about through the evolutionary process. If not, what did He intend? Or, did He not intend anything?” Will someone please tell this incredible nitwit that to say God created homo-sapiens as he intended is not in any way to say that God intended for a red ball to land on the red 16. In the first instance, God’s is the causal agent and the only causal agent. In the second instance, it is a human that is causing the event. In the first instance, free will is not in play. In the second instance, free will is in play. I could go on, but you get the drift. Mung, as of now, the administrators are putting up with your trollish behavior. But you had better not show up on a thread of mine.StephenB
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
10:34 PM
10
10
34
PM
PDT
Upright BiPed:If you start painting numbers on those sides, then you can start asking questions about the probabilities of those numbers, but those answers won’t have anything to do with the mechanical facts. Well if I recall correctly StephenB stated that all numbers between 2-12 have an equal probability of coming in in any roll of two dice. StephenB has painted numbers on the face of your die in a specific configuration....any fair reading would come to the same conclusion.Acipenser
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
10:25 PM
10
10
25
PM
PDT
--Mung: "All I pointed out was that when you quoted me, you were likewise doing so “in your own words.” Sorry, Mung I won't work. The record on the thread in question is clear: @58 you wrote this: “But yes, Meyer in those texts is confused (and confusing). I’d love to sit with him some day and have a chat about it.” So, there is Mung saying that Meyer is confused. @114 Mung writes this to me: “Here’s more of your own words: “But yes, Meyer in those texts is confused (and confusing).” So, here Mung is clearly accusing me of saying that Meyer is confused and confusing, when it was he and he alone that said it. Nice try, though. Now that you have attempted to distract everyone from the subject matter, are you ready to defend your claim that a scientific inference to someone's "intention" constitutes a foray into metaphysics?" You can begin by telling us if the forensic scientist who infers that a dead body was not an accident and was really the product an "intentional" homicide constitutes a metaphysical intrusion into science. If you can deal with that one, I have another one for you.StephenB
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
10:11 PM
10
10
11
PM
PDT
Acipenser, It seems that the conversation upthread was more about categories of cause than probabilities. If I am correct in that, then your comment was merely opportunistic. I think a fair reading of StephenB's example, was that a fair die, as a mechanical object (a cube) subject to physical law, does not favor revealing any one of its sides any more than any other. If you start painting numbers on those sides, then you can start asking questions about the probabilities of those numbers, but those answers won't have anything to do with the mechanical facts.Upright BiPed
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
10:02 PM
10
10
02
PM
PDT
You intended that whatever it was that you aimed at #138 hit #138, but you, not being God, missed. By chance.
I missed because I have no intentionality or because I suck? I'm assuming that in either case chance could still have allowed me to hit, which is what you meant by "by chance."tragic mishap
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
09:10 PM
9
09
10
PM
PDT
StepheneB:
Looking past your latest of many mis-attributions and false quotes...
Meyer, "in his own words" [well, that's the way you put it anyways] was quoting the Webster's dictionary definition of information. All I pointed out was that when you quoted me, you were likewise doing so "in your own words." You claimed that what you were quoting were "Meyer's own words." They were in fact, not Meyer's own words. They were Meyer quoting a dictionary. By your own testimony Meyer then went on to use a different definition of information. Naught naughty. That's dishonest. You got caught. Deal with it.Mung
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
08:54 PM
8
08
54
PM
PDT
StephenB:
—Mung: “As you would say, if God intended the ball to land on the red 16, the ball would land on the red 16.” I have never said any such thing or anything even close to that.
StephenB:
Did God intend to create homo-sapiens as homo-sapiens? Did He intend homo-sapiens to possess an immortal soul and did that immortal soul come about through the evolutionary process. If not, what did He intend? Or, did He not intend anything? Christian Darwinism
StephenB:
Do you agree that prior to man’s arrival, God’s will was always done in the sense that nature unfolded exactly as He intended and that after man’s arrival, God’s will was not always done in the sense that man often disobeyed Him through the misuse of his free will and did not always behave as God intended. Christian Darwinism
StephenB:
It means homo-sapiens was predetermined. If God intends that specific outcome and arranges a process to produce that outcome and nothing else, then the process cannot be totally random. A totally random process can produce any number of outcomes, and not just the one outcome that God intended and caused. Christian Darwinism
See also: Christian Darwinism No, you never ever said anything even remotely like that. You would never say such a thing. Far be it from God to intend one thing and have some other thing come about. Given your past comments I hardly think it was a stretch on my part to say what I did.Mung
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
08:43 PM
8
08
43
PM
PDT
...uh my comment was aimed at 138.
You intended that whatever it was that you aimed at #138 hit #138, but you, not being God, missed. By chance. :)Mung
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
08:22 PM
8
08
22
PM
PDT
Still confusing the map for the mountain, I see.Ilion
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
07:34 PM
7
07
34
PM
PDT
That's correct for one dice. When you add a second, the odds of a certain number coming up rather than another number changes due to the increase in possible combinations. The number seven has the most possible combinations, 6/1, 5/2/ 3/4 etc and the number two, "snake eyes" has only one possible combination 1/1. So in the event that every possibility from 2 to 12 have an equal chance of coming up (as someone suggested), given the odds vegas grants for betting on snake eyes "2", that would be a positive expectation bet. And you could make a living betting it. Bella Vita!junkdnaforlife
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
07:09 PM
7
07
09
PM
PDT
Any side of the die encompasses the same probability. The fact that they are numbered is beside the point.Upright BiPed
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
06:59 PM
6
06
59
PM
PDT
Acipenser: "WOW! this is so amazingly wrong!" There is someone at the Bellagio right now with a few black birds stacked on snake eyes that wishes it were amazingly right. C'mon shooter, one time!junkdnaforlife
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
06:55 PM
6
06
55
PM
PDT
StephenB: On the other hand, if the dice are fair, any number from two to twelve will have an equal chance of coming up.
Um...hmmm... SB better come clean on that one, lol.tragic mishap
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
06:51 PM
6
06
51
PM
PDT
uh my comment was aimed at 138.tragic mishap
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
06:42 PM
6
06
42
PM
PDT
Well since I believe in free will I think things happen all the time that God did not intend. So if that's really what Meyer is saying then he's not only engaging in metaphysics instead of science (a distinction I care less and less about the more I hear null talk), he's wrong. :Dtragic mishap
July 10, 2011
July
07
Jul
10
10
2011
06:39 PM
6
06
39
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 7

Leave a Reply