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Confessions of a Design Heretic

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Those of you who’ve followed my posts and comments will have picked up that my view of Intelligent Design is pretty complicated. On the one hand, I defend design inferences, even strong design inferences. I’m entirely comfortable with questioning Darwinism (if that view still has enough content to identify it as a clear position, anyway), and have a downright dismissive view of both naturalism (if that view… etc) and atheism. I regularly see the ID position butchered, mangled and misrepresented by its detractors, most of whom should and probably do know better.

On the flipside, I don’t think ID (or for that matter, no-ID) is science, even if I reason that if no-ID is science then so is ID. My personal leaning has always been towards theistic evolution, and I see evolution as yet another instance of design rather than something which runs in opposition to it – a view which I know some ID proponents share, but certainly not all. I think non-scientific arguments for and inferences to design have considerable power, and see little reason to elevate particular arguments simply because some insist they’re “scientific”.

Here’s another part of that flipside, and the subject of today’s post. One of the more prominent ID arguments hinges on the trichotomy of Chance, Necessity, and Design. The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance, and I see Necessity as subsumable under Design.

Let’s start with the more straightforward issue first: Necessity and design. I think a problem straightaway is that design presupposes necessity, at least in the form of law – and the type of law/necessity you have serves as a limiting factor on design. But more than that, law is implemented and used in our own designs – you need only look at how software is designed and created to see man-made law at work. Likewise, the nature of physical laws of our universe is itself an open question, a thing which has to be explained. It would be enough to point out the mere possibility of “design” as an explanation of these laws to kick some dirt on contrast of necessity and design. The fact that we have intelligent agents implementing laws – arguably comparable laws – in software, systems and designs should be enough to give additional pause.

So what about chance? Well, let’s try to nail down the appropriate definition of chance here: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind. I actually think that’s pretty straightforward, but let’s note what this definition is not identical to: The claim that outcomes were, largely or in part, the result of natural or material forces. It’s entirely possible for intelligent agents to foresee, intend, and orchestrate these outcomes, whether via direct intervention or well in advance (“front-loading”). Nor is the claim identical to “events and outcomes that were the result of accumulations of (small or large) changes over time”. Once again, such outcomes are entirely compatible with their being foreseen, directed, and intended by a mind, both in advance or directly.

Now, I think this is what many people who play the ‘chance, necessity or design’ card typically mean when they oppose chance to design. (I’m sure other people could go with another definition – but for our purposes I think I’m giving a fair view.) The problem is that, if this is what is meant by chance, then it’s not obvious that “chance” really exists to begin with. That’s not to say someone can’t assume that it exists, or that they can’t mount some kind of argument for the existence of chance based on whatever presuppositions or standards. People can assume whatever they like, and they’re certainly capable of arguing for just about anything. But while design can be verified by first-person experience (just design something), and law is both subsumable under design as well as generally verifiable (just observe regularity), chance – the sort of chance I’m talking about – is, and may well forever remain, a metaphysical assumption. For all we know, and for all science can tell us, this thing may as well not exist.

I want to stress: To question chance in the manner I’m speaking is not to question, say.. the existence of a gaussian distribution, or of uncorrelated patterns, or of any particular patterns at all. A mind could foresee or even determine a gaussian distribution. A mind could create or intend an uncorrelated pattern. But the pattern itself won’t get you where you need to go – not without, ironically enough, a Design Filter. Even Dembski asserts that his DF is incapable of ruling out design in cases where his filter does not go off – but the inability to determine the presence or lack of design in these mundane cases places the very existence of chance in these cases open to question. This doesn’t mean that chance is demonstrated not to exist – only that its existence is one of mere logical possibility. And that ain’t much.

Oddly enough, I think the DF – or investigations similar to the DF – only heightens my point. At least some of the events and outcomes we see in our universe are the result of intention, of guidance, of mind. In principle, most – even all – events and outcomes we see in our universe could be the result of these things, and as our technology grows our own capabilities become more and more incredible on this front. With this in mind, at least from my point of view, I see little reason to treat ‘chance’ in the sense I wrote about in this entry as more than an interesting and remote logical possibility, an extrascientific posit that doesn’t have much to commend it.

Comments
Acipenser, re:
WOW! this is so amazingly wrong! I’m also surprised at the number of others who chimed in who also believe this patently false claim.
Clearly, people around UD aren't spending enough time in Las Vegas at the craps tables. Time for a junket! :)jstanley01
July 10, 2011
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---Mung: "As you would say, if God intended the ball to land on the red 16, the ball would land on the red 16." I have never said any such thing or anything even close to that. Looking past your latest of many mis-attributions and false quotes, are you ready to tell me if you think that drawing a design inference about someone's "intentions" qualfies as an intrusion of metaphysics into science?StephenB
July 10, 2011
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StephenB: On the other hand, if the dice are fair, any number from two to twelve will have an equal chance of coming up. WOW! this is so amazingly wrong! I'm also surprised at the number of others who chimed in who also believe this patently false claim. No wonder few folks buy into the ID probability arguments since the ID proponents cannot even get the most basic probability concepts correct.Acipenser
July 10, 2011
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[But Meyer is not defining chance in terms of that which is “unforseen.” Even so, you don’t hesitate to associate him with that term. It is you who are injecting metaphysical issues into the discussion]. ---nullasalus: “I’m saying that unless the claim is properly qualified, we have a problem.” Again, I am asking you to tell me why there is a problem. ----“But when you give me the quote, that’s all I can run with. And as Mung says, if Meyer says ‘the ball was not placed there intentionally’, that’s what I have to run with.” Does this mean that you are now going to tell me why drawing a design inference to cheating [Meyer’s example], or a design inference to plagiarism, or a design inference to murder, or a design inference to burglary, or a design inference about an ancient hunter's spear, all of which indicate some kind of “intent, qualifies as intruding metaphysics in science. Or am I to wait until a later time for an answer. ---This doesn’t bother you? [Monod’s excesses] The prevalence of this move doesn’t strike you as something that needs to be corrected, criticized and answered for? The extent of it doesn’t concern you?” ID critics ARE guilty of injecting metaphysics into science and ID scientists are NOT. Yes, I am bothered by the fact that Darwinists and TEs inject metaphysics into science, but I am not bothered about ID scientists doing it because they do not do it. With respect to Monod, he died before ID science was born.StephenB
July 10, 2011
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‘Intentionality’ is a philosopher's word. It derives from the Latin word intentio, which in turn derives from the verb intendere, which means being directed towards some goal or thing.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/intentionality/ As you would say, if God intended the ball to land on the red 16, the ball would land on the red 16. So Meyer is in effect saying that God did not intend for the ball to land on the red 16. How does Meyer know this? Because the ball did not land on the red 16. A claim of a lack of intent is a claim about minds. Only a mind can intend a thing.Mung
July 10, 2011
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StephenB: [“To say that the roulette ball fell in the red 16 pocket by chance is also to say that the ball was NOT placed there intentionally and that there was nothing about the construction of the roulette wheel that forced the ball to land in the red 16 of NECESSITY.] ---Mung: "Pure metaphysics." Why?StephenB
July 10, 2011
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StephenB, You accuse ID of doing metaphysics in the name of science. Alright, let's see the example. But Meyer is not defining chance in terms of that which is “unforseen.” Even so, you don’t hesitate to associate him with that term. It is you who are injecting metaphysical issues into the discussion. I'm saying that unless the claim is properly qualified, we have a problem. I said that I am relying on you for these passages, and that I do not know what Meyer says other than what you relate to me. For all I know I bring up an objection that Meyer has not thought of, and he would properly qualify it if given the chance. But when you give me the quote, that's all I can run with. And as Mung says, if Meyer says 'the ball was not placed there intentionally', that's what I have to run with. I'm willing to give Meyer the benefit of the doubt. I've said as much previously. But I'm not willing to fill in the blanks for a quote I have problems with, without comment. So, there you have it. In your judgment, anyone who uses science to catch someone cheating is doing metaphysics. Well, excuse me, but no, they are not. That's not what I said, at any point. Ruling out whether this or that human was cheating is not the same as ruling out whether something was unintended or unforeseen. I'm being charitable here, StephenB. I fully grant that Meyer could mean something other than I read. I understand the limitations of the written word. But the written word is all I've got, and if Meyer says that this or that was not placed there intentionally - full stop - and that science can tell this, I have a problem. People? What people? Who does this? Not Meyer, not Dembski, not Behe. Why do you think I'm taking aim at Meyer, Dembski or Behe, when the men I've focused on are principally Monod and Ruse? You brought up Meyer. You made the quote. I pointed out the problem, and I mentioned the limitations of the data I was working with. It's entirely possible Meyer glossed over something. But again: All I have is what Meyer wrote, according to you. How does your definition come into play here when it is not the definition used by ID scientists? Personally, I cannot accept that formulation anyway, because it’s first component rules out God’s omniscience in principle, which makes it metaphysical. Because whether or not the definition is used by ID scientists is a secondary concern to me here. I pointed out in my OP that Dembski does NOT treat his filter as a way to determine that this or that mundane process is devoid of guidance or intention. At no point did I say design inferences can't be made - I said the opposite, in fact. The fact that I'm going after ID critics first and foremost should be a big clue as to what I'm arguing here. I'm surprised multiple people seemed to assume I was attacking ID here, but for some reason actually asking me if I was doing this seems to have been a distant second concern. Go fig. Yes, Monod, who at other times and places provides a scientific definition of chance, does, on this and many other occasions, smuggle metaphysics into science and make unwarranted claims about what chance can do. So what? So what? Are you serious? So what? This doesn't bother you? The prevalence of this move doesn't strike you as something that needs to be corrected, criticized and answered for? The extent of it doesn't concern you? I exaggerate. Of course it bothers you. But it's not high enough on your priority list, perhaps. I see these confusions as downright central abuses. For as much value as a CSI filter has or an IC argument offers, confusions like these are vastly easier to address, and do tremendous damage. Sorry, I think they should be focused on. I can't trust the TEs to focus on it - I'd think ID proponents would be more concerned. This is not a small problem. It's far-reaching, it's fundamental and it's been festering for decades.nullasalus
July 10, 2011
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If a particular aspect of a phenomenon is by chance then, it is not of either necessity nor choice.kairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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StephenB:
To say that the roulette ball fell in the red 16 pocket by chance is also to say that the ball was NOT placed there intentionally and that there was nothing about the construction of the roulette wheel that forced the ball to land in the red 16 of NECESSITY.
Pure metaphysics. Chance means unintentional. nullasalus: “Here’s how I defined chance: “Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind.” StephenB:
Help me out here. How does your definition come into play here when it is not the definition used by ID scientists?
Definitions aside, as in the way Meyer just used chance to mean unintended? IOW, if Meyer says that he defines chance one way, but then uses it another way. Why argue about the definition he gave when what is relevant is how he uses the term? And in this case, he says exactly what he means by it in the very same context in which he uses it. “To say that the roulette ball fell in the red 16 pocket by chance is also to say that the ball was NOT placed there intentionally..."Mung
July 10, 2011
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--nullasalus: "Where in this thread have I said that ‘ID does the same thing’? Tell me what I accused ID of doing, and where I did it. I’ll try my damndest to answer you fully on that front once this is done." You accuse ID of doing metaphysics in the name of science. Let's take two examples. [A] @76, I provided Meyer's discussion of the roulette wheel: "To say that the roulette ball fell in the red 16 pocket by chance is also to say tha the ball was NOT placed there intentionally and that there was nothing about the construction of the roulette wheel that forced the ball to land in the red 16 of NECESSITY. That statment is solely scientific, but you say it goes further: --"And I’m saying that, unless that statement is qualified, it goes beyond science." But it doesn't. There is the first example where you say that an ID scientist is really smuggling in metaphysics. In that context, you ask: ---"Was the ball landing in 16 not foreseen by any agent, full stop?" But Meyer is not defining chance in terms of that which is "unforseen." Even so, you don't hesitate to associate him with that term. It is you who are injecting metaphysical issues into the discussion. You go on: --"Not preordained, full stop? Science is infirm to make that determination." Yes, so it is, which is why Meyer doesn't define chance in terms of "pre-ordination." Once again, you associate Meyer with that very subject--as if he had raised it. [B] @93 I wrote, "The very same technique [suggested by Meyer] is used by academics to spot intentional plagiarism. It’s pure math and science—no metaphysics." To that, you responded: --"As I said, unless you properly qualify it, it is." So, there you have it. In your judgment, anyone who uses science to catch someone cheating is doing metaphysics. Well, excuse me, but no, they are not. You go on: --"Are you telling me that you can use “math and science” to determine, say, the presence or lack of God’s knowledge, guidance, or intervention in this or that situation?" Heavens no, I am not telling you that. I am telling you what I am telling you--namely that science, in some cases, can discern intent, nothing more. Responding to your philosophical/theological question, I wrote: "From a theological perspective I would say that God foresaw it, yes. [Technically, God just “sees” it]. From a scientific perspective, I don’t see any metaphysical smuggling going on. In what way has science exceeded its limits in this case?" Because I answered a philosophical question does not mean that my metaphysical answer can be applied to a scientific hypothesis, or that I think it can, or that ID scientists presume to do so. Again, your wrote: --"It’s not science exceeding its limits per se. Science’s limits are science’s limits – the limits are exceeded by people, passing off non-science as science." People? What people? Who does this? Not Meyer, not Dembski, not Behe. You go on: "You say that, from a theological perspective, God foresaw it." Yes, of course. --"But if someone says, “No one foresaw it, period. Science shows us this.”, would you call that an abuse of science?" Yes. So what? Then you wrote: "Here’s how I defined chance: “Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind.” Help me out here. How does your definition come into play here when it is not the definition used by ID scientists? Personally, I cannot accept that formulation anyway, because it's first component rules out God's omniscience in principle, which makes it metaphysical. ---"I quoted Monod at 75. Monod seems to be making a similar claim for chance, and at the very least strongly implying that his is a purely scientific, rather than philosophical or metaphysical, view. Grant me for the sake of argument that he’s doing that. Are we seeing some smuggling?" Yes, Monod, who at other times and places provides a scientific definition of chance, does, on this and many other occasions, smuggle metaphysics into science and make unwarranted claims about what chance can do. So what?StephenB
July 10, 2011
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KF and Mung: I was trying and supposedly failing to formulate null's argument. None of those arguments are necessarily ones I myself would make. I'd have trouble understanding what science is about if it's not about causation. I am not a strict empiricist. I believe science includes empiricism as well as theories to explain data. Theories about causation are fair game for science. null: You title your post "Confessions of a Design Heretic," then say ID isn't science and then run around wondering why everyone thinks you are making an argument against ID. What did you expect?tragic mishap
July 10, 2011
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Mung: Insofar as that logic is a philosophical topic, we may point out that that which begins or may cease has a cause, and that our knowledge of it on a warrant is an exercise in epistemology. In that sense, everything that is logical or about warranting knowledge is philosophy. But, once we move the business end, we are up to our eyeballs in cause-effect bonds in science, engineering, management and life. For science, let us start simple: a nail suddenly jumps in an inch into hardwood. Hammer striking and impulse being rapidly applied in a collision, translating into a force per F = dP/dt, is cause. (Impulse forces released on collisions is why we use hammers. Force moving through distance gives work done.) Effect, mechanism, dynamics, cause. Photoeffect. Light of frequency beyond a threshold -- within the threshold, no effect no matter the intensity, beyond, immediate effect no matter how weak -- liberates electrons from a surface, or inside a body, used in cameras now and a lot of areas. Effect, light liberated, cause, worked out by Einstein, photons of light of enough energy to liberate bound charge carriers. Cause, mechanism, dynamics, model, effect. And, many many more. Cause-effect bonds and dynamics are a routine focus for science. And observable signs that point to what is going on, too. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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Effects are observable. That they have a cause is entirely philosophical. Does a cause always bring about the same effect? Do effects which appear similar always have the same cause? Are we getting OT? If not we can continue to discuss.Mung
July 10, 2011
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I hear you on the summary side. Could you please explain the issue of effects starting with the photoelectric one?kairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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tragic mishap:
Causation is outside the realm of science.
I agree! But kf, I don't think tm was making this assertion. I think it was an attempt to characterize the argument of the op.Mung
July 10, 2011
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StephenB, What does that have to do with your claim that ID does the same thing? I'm going out the door right now - I'll have a fuller post for you later. Until then, please indulge me on just one thing. Where in this thread have I said that 'ID does the same thing'? Tell me what I accused ID of doing, and where I did it. I'll try my damndest to answer you fully on that front once this is done.nullasalus
July 10, 2011
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Right. I don’t know why that’s hard to accept for anyone, but thanks for this all the same.
Well, like you said earlier, I think it had something to do with the title of the post, lol. So the way that I see it so far is that the "issue" you have with the necessity aspect of the trichotomy is entirely different from the "issue" you have with chance aspect of the trichotomy. Would that be fair to say?Mung
July 10, 2011
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---Nullasalus: “Yeah, you’re just saying that science can determine the lack of intention in this or that specific case. What’s purposeful intention got to do with God, right?” If science can determine purposeful intention, it doesn’t follow that God is necessarily implied (although He could be). As I pointed out, science can discern intention in the form of plagiarism and cheating, but God would not be implied in either case. Indeed, forensic science can differentiate between accidental death and [intentional] murder. Indeed, Big Bang science "implicates" God. To do metaphysics, you must speak directly about matters, or make claims about matters, that are “Meta”—“Physical.” ---“Look – I said that unless the statement is properly qualified, that it goes beyond science. To say ‘well, there’s no purposeful intention that we can detect – but of course, this only holds for certain agents. God, for example, could well have intended this result’ is to qualify it. ---“But in the quote you provided, there was no qualification by Meyer. He said that to say the roulette ball fell where it did by chance is to say it did not fall where it did as the result of intention, and that there was nothing about the roulette wheel’s construction that made it stop there by necessity, and you suggested this as described was an entirely scientific determination.” It is solely scientific and Meyer is correct in his analysis. We KNOW if the roulette wheel is fair by testing it scientifically, and we know if someone is intentionally cheating by using those same scientific methods. No qualification is needed. Science can determine intent without resorting to metaphysics. That is how we know the difference between the havoc wreaked by a tornado [nature] and the havoc wreaked by a burglar [intention]. You are making unwarranted stretches about ID science. ---“To say ‘this was not the result of any intention’ without qualification is to bring God into the conversation, and metaphysics, theology and philosophy along with it.” We are not saying that it was the result of “any intention at all.” We are saying that is was not the result of the intention of the party or parties involved in the process or those implied in the hypothesis. We do metaphysics only when we specifically argue that God was either involved or not involved, Indeed, big bang cosmology, which is even more suggestive of a possible creator God than ID science, is not metaphysics. [Monod is not defining chance in those passages; he is making claims about its efficacy. A definition is about what something is, not about what it can do. Monad’s DEFINITION of chance is this: “events and processes that produce a range of possible outcomes, each with some probability of occurring.” That is a scientific definition completely absent of any metaphysical intrusion and is nothing like the passage that you alluded to @75, which is a wild, unjustified claim about what chance can do. ---“Oh really? Let’s review. ---“I defined chance as this: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind.” You can’t hold me responsible for your definition. Come on! You can only hold me accountable for ID’s definitions. ----“You have, unless I’ve misunderstood you, copped to this definition being metaphysical, beyond science.” Yes, you have misunderstood me. I have been very clear in that I am using Meyer’s second definition of “chance.” ---“You’re saying that when Monod says what he says in 75, he’s not making any claims about processes of nature being entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind?” Good grief, man, I said exactly what I meant. At 75, Monod IS making claims about the processes of nature being entirely unforeseen, undirected, and unintended by any mind, which is why it is NOT scientific. On the other hand, his DEFINITION of chance, which is found elsewhere, IS scientific. What good is it for me to say what I mean if you ignore it? You follow with another series of quotes, all of which indicate that Monod’s anti-scientific biases. Yes, they are all anti-scientific and metaphysical. So what? It has nothing to do with ID nor does it eliminate his reasonable DEFINITION of chance (which I provided and which you ignored), ---“Alright. I’ll play that game. Here’s some more Monod quotes. I know that Monod is transcending science with all these quotes. I get that. So what? What does that have to do with your claim that ID transcends science? What does that have to do with his legitimate scientific definition of chance, which he, himself, ignores most of the time. ---“No plan, no intention in the universe.” Right, that is not scientific. ---“Not enough? Alright, let’s try another.’ Oh, for heavens sake, I say [again] Monod’s anti-scientific rants have nothing to do with ID, nor do they invalidate his perfectly valid definition of chance, which is not anti-scientific. You must try to make these distinctions. ---“Monod: You are quite right. The advent of man was completely unpredictable, until it actually happened.” ---“Go ahead. Tell me Monod was not passing off the view of chance I talk about, the view which you apparently admit is metaphysical and beyond science, as science.” All these quotes that you allude to are intrusively metaphysical and unscientific. SO WHAT? What does that have to do with your claim that ID does the same thing? What does that have to do with the fact that Monod also has crafted a definition of chance that is NOT metaphysical? What does that have to do with the fact that Meyer’s definition contains no metaphysical content?StephenB
July 10, 2011
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TH:
Causation is outside the realm of science.
H'mm, so what are we studying when we study the many EFFECTS in science and explore mechanisms that give rise to them? For instance, cf the photoelectric effect, the explanation of which had a lot to do with the Nobel Prize, of a certain Einstein, A. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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Mung, Or is there some issue that you have with the necessity part as well. My only issue with necessity is that I don't see it as in the running against design, but an instance of design itself. So juxtaposing it against design just strikes me as weird, like saying "design or front-loading". I don't even have a problem with a properly qualified view of chance and a design comparison. Let's say a person was convinced that chance as I've defined it does not exist. It seems to me they can still run an ID-style argument, even an irreducible complexity argument. I guess one way of putting it is 'even if everything is designed in an ultimate sense, that doesn't mean that everything is designed the same way'. Nullasalus is not making an argument about ID and whether or not it is science. Right. I don't know why that's hard to accept for anyone, but thanks for this all the same.nullasalus
July 10, 2011
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F/N: I have added an initial report on the experimental test of the Maxwell distribution.kairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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Conclusion: ID is not science. Conclusion: ID is outside of science. Nullasalus is not making an argument about ID and whether or not it is science. So neither conclusion is representative if his argument.Mung
July 10, 2011
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“Help the engineers build a better toaster, or you’re not earning your keep.”
Wheat do you mean? Help the biologists develop bread that comes already toasted I say! And buttered.Mung
July 10, 2011
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I did mention that I have problems with the ‘chance, necessity or design’ trichotomy. hi nullasalus, I think the point of my post on necessity was to try to figure out of you "have problems with the ‘chance, necessity or design’ trichotomy," or if you have problems with the 'chance or design' dichotomy. That's all. So it is only the 'chance' part of the trichotomy that you're really getting at? Or is there some issue that you have with the necessity part as well. Thanks
Mung
July 10, 2011
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Another try: 1. Chance causation is outside the realm of science. 2. ID is an attempt to distinguish between chance causation, necessity causation and agent causation. Conclusion: ID is outside of science. Please help me out by tweaking this if you like.tragic mishap
July 10, 2011
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Yeah, you’re just saying that science can determine the lack of intention in this or that specific case. What’s purposeful intention got to do with God, right?
Again I must emphasize that regardless of what Monod or even Meyer said, ID is not an attempt to say that agency could not have done something. Dembksi did not make that mistake and I suggest you address ID's strongest argument. ID is an attempt to identify that which could only have been done by an agent. Nothing whatsoever about identifying "no-design."tragic mishap
July 10, 2011
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Monod’s claims, and others (like Michael Ruse’s, though I haven’t gone into his particular version of it here) are philosophy and metaphysics, not science. Chance, as I described it, is not revealed by science, nor could it be.
Ok so let me try again: 1. Causation is outside the realm of science. 2. ID is an attempt to distinguish between types of causation. Conclusion: ID is not science. How about that?tragic mishap
July 10, 2011
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F/N: I give a qualitative discussion here.kairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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PS: The lecture here gives a good summary [on analytical and empirical grounds, Null: I do not ask for blind bowing to authority sand the above never called for that], including the apparatus that observed the Maxwell distribution in action.kairosfocus
July 10, 2011
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Since coming upon the ID argument, I've never considered chance to be a "causal agency", but rather have always considered it the "gray area" that stands between that which can be adequately explained by necessity, and that which requires design. For me, assigning the gray area as "chance" was simply a shorthand way of giving that area to materialists - which was fine. Since I believe mind created mechanical necessity to serve as the contextual counterpart for the purpose of identification of self, free will, choice, etc., I think that the "gray area" we call "chance" was intended to serve as a form of "plausible deniability".Meleagar
July 10, 2011
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