Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Confessions of a Design Heretic

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Those of you who’ve followed my posts and comments will have picked up that my view of Intelligent Design is pretty complicated. On the one hand, I defend design inferences, even strong design inferences. I’m entirely comfortable with questioning Darwinism (if that view still has enough content to identify it as a clear position, anyway), and have a downright dismissive view of both naturalism (if that view… etc) and atheism. I regularly see the ID position butchered, mangled and misrepresented by its detractors, most of whom should and probably do know better.

On the flipside, I don’t think ID (or for that matter, no-ID) is science, even if I reason that if no-ID is science then so is ID. My personal leaning has always been towards theistic evolution, and I see evolution as yet another instance of design rather than something which runs in opposition to it – a view which I know some ID proponents share, but certainly not all. I think non-scientific arguments for and inferences to design have considerable power, and see little reason to elevate particular arguments simply because some insist they’re “scientific”.

Here’s another part of that flipside, and the subject of today’s post. One of the more prominent ID arguments hinges on the trichotomy of Chance, Necessity, and Design. The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance, and I see Necessity as subsumable under Design.

Let’s start with the more straightforward issue first: Necessity and design. I think a problem straightaway is that design presupposes necessity, at least in the form of law – and the type of law/necessity you have serves as a limiting factor on design. But more than that, law is implemented and used in our own designs – you need only look at how software is designed and created to see man-made law at work. Likewise, the nature of physical laws of our universe is itself an open question, a thing which has to be explained. It would be enough to point out the mere possibility of “design” as an explanation of these laws to kick some dirt on contrast of necessity and design. The fact that we have intelligent agents implementing laws – arguably comparable laws – in software, systems and designs should be enough to give additional pause.

So what about chance? Well, let’s try to nail down the appropriate definition of chance here: Events and outcomes entirely unforeseen, undirected and unintended by any mind. I actually think that’s pretty straightforward, but let’s note what this definition is not identical to: The claim that outcomes were, largely or in part, the result of natural or material forces. It’s entirely possible for intelligent agents to foresee, intend, and orchestrate these outcomes, whether via direct intervention or well in advance (“front-loading”). Nor is the claim identical to “events and outcomes that were the result of accumulations of (small or large) changes over time”. Once again, such outcomes are entirely compatible with their being foreseen, directed, and intended by a mind, both in advance or directly.

Now, I think this is what many people who play the ‘chance, necessity or design’ card typically mean when they oppose chance to design. (I’m sure other people could go with another definition – but for our purposes I think I’m giving a fair view.) The problem is that, if this is what is meant by chance, then it’s not obvious that “chance” really exists to begin with. That’s not to say someone can’t assume that it exists, or that they can’t mount some kind of argument for the existence of chance based on whatever presuppositions or standards. People can assume whatever they like, and they’re certainly capable of arguing for just about anything. But while design can be verified by first-person experience (just design something), and law is both subsumable under design as well as generally verifiable (just observe regularity), chance – the sort of chance I’m talking about – is, and may well forever remain, a metaphysical assumption. For all we know, and for all science can tell us, this thing may as well not exist.

I want to stress: To question chance in the manner I’m speaking is not to question, say.. the existence of a gaussian distribution, or of uncorrelated patterns, or of any particular patterns at all. A mind could foresee or even determine a gaussian distribution. A mind could create or intend an uncorrelated pattern. But the pattern itself won’t get you where you need to go – not without, ironically enough, a Design Filter. Even Dembski asserts that his DF is incapable of ruling out design in cases where his filter does not go off – but the inability to determine the presence or lack of design in these mundane cases places the very existence of chance in these cases open to question. This doesn’t mean that chance is demonstrated not to exist – only that its existence is one of mere logical possibility. And that ain’t much.

Oddly enough, I think the DF – or investigations similar to the DF – only heightens my point. At least some of the events and outcomes we see in our universe are the result of intention, of guidance, of mind. In principle, most – even all – events and outcomes we see in our universe could be the result of these things, and as our technology grows our own capabilities become more and more incredible on this front. With this in mind, at least from my point of view, I see little reason to treat ‘chance’ in the sense I wrote about in this entry as more than an interesting and remote logical possibility, an extrascientific posit that doesn’t have much to commend it.

Comments
gpuccio, I believe your approach is mainly philosophical. I believe my approach (here) is mainly scientific and empirical. Probably. I'm on record as not being very concerned with making only 'scientific' arguments, and I think the limits of science are greater than most appreciate. That’s not a problem, for me, but a merit. Science in only about models. Sure it is. Science is great, even with its limitations. But those limitations mean it's helpless to resolve a number of disputes or questions, some of them downright important. This is the important point, and this is where, I believe, you are “scientifically” wrong. The tossing of a coin is, for all scientific purposes, a probabilistic system. I am not interested (and so, I believe, most scientists) in the philosophical (and, I would say, rather odd) possibility that some god wants exactly each event in that way for some hidden purpose. I can appreciate that. Honestly, I can. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking with this post, but explain where I'm coming from, and point out what I see as some undeniable and fundamental limits of observation and science. Nor do my claims require that (say) the Christian God is orchestrating all events. Maybe there's multiple minds at work. Maybe there's only one mind, but it's non-omniscient and non-omnipotent, but very intelligent and intervening here and there. And science becomes stuck when determining which, if any, of these possibilities are the case - including the 'no mind' one, which has the least going for it of all the possibilities. You say you're interested in science, not philosophy. Fair. But if I'm interested in philosophy or theology or metaphysics rather than science, well... Again: I'm not objecting to models of deterministic or stochastic processes. Whatever it takes to build me a better toaster cheaper, frankly. I'll be content with realizing what qualifications come with those models, the limitations of them, and what science can (and cannot) tell us. I defined what I meant by 'chance' in the post, and made it clear that this wasn't a dispute with pragmatic models. I also explained why I thought it was odd to contrast 'necessity'/'law' with 'design'. We may not disagree on much here, ultimately. If you want to make a scientific argument, go right ahead. I'm just focusing on the limits of science, and how certain claims are more a case of worldview smuggling than anything else.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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Elizabeth: What we criticize here is not just Darwin and his personal thought. we criticize neo-darwinism, or the modern synthesis, which is still the main accepted theory in biology. And I believe we also criticize (I certainly do) all forms of neo-neo-darwinism which have been developed to give the false idea that what we observe can be explained out of a design hypothesis.gpuccio
July 9, 2011
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nullasalus: You say: "At the same time, I can’t accept the common attitude which suggests that philosophy and metaphysics go away if we stop talking about them or paying attention to them." I agree. I am very interested in philosophy and metaphysics. But, when I build a scientific map, I stick to a scientific approach. When I build a philosophical map (which I do all the time, but not often here), I have a different approach and different criteria and tools. And, obviosuly, I continuosly try to cennect my maps as well as I can. But the point is, scientific maps can and do work well at their level, without having to continuosly refer to philosophical maps. Of course, there are some philosophical choices which are implicit in our approach to science. Some of them, like empiricism, I can well acceppt and agree with. Others, like methodological naturalism, I simply refute. But scientific maps can be shared to a great point, even when philosophical maps are different.gpuccio
July 9, 2011
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Me too, and I’d say, most evolutionary biologists. I'd say most evolutionary biologists don't. Ah well, looks like we still have something to talk about then The approach of "let's keep talking about this ad nauseum until we agree, and by that I mean until you agree with me" doesn't do much for me.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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kf, I think this gets to the heart of the matter in our differing opinions here. So, it is reasonable to look at chance phenomena and circumstances as empirical circumstances, and put the onward worldview debates to one side. I disagree strongly, because the worldviews in question are of monumental importance. Really, I see them as the reason these debates and discussions exist to begin with in large part. There is rarely ever any "putting the worldview to one side" - what we get instead is "assuming this worldview as given, and proceeding from there". Considering the worldview is precisely what I question and in large part reject, I'm not interested in just accepting in faint hope that some kind of conversation can be had. But, to accept chance, necessity and choice without any necessary locking in of grand metaphysical commitments, is a good and reasonable place to begin. Not for someone who believes that the metaphysical commitments are where the real problems lie to begin with. That's not to say I can't agree with accepting this or that worldview for the sake of argument, and working from there. On the other hand, if the worldview is what's viewed as the issue, then that's where to begin. Finally, you say... the proper scientific approach at this point is to cut off the deep worldview debates and to work based on the empirical circumstances. But I said outright that I really don't care if my approach is scientific. I'm more than happy with arguments that aren't labeled 'scientific', frankly - and I think 'science' is far more narrow in scope anyway. Indeed, I think you'll find many instances of people, even scientists, who do not 'put their worldviews aside' and simply engage the empirical data. Instead what's done is they christen their worldview as the scientific worldview (or 'the null hypothesis'), and fight tooth and nail to keep it. Either way, no. I see no reason to cut off the worldview debates, and every reason to keep pointing out what I'm pointing out. In a way, you can say I'm in agreement with you - all I'm doing is pointing out where certain supposed 'scientific' claims are actually little more than unreflective metaphysics or worldview assumptions, and asking these to no longer be called science. The problem is - as Cornelius Hunter may agree - if you suck the metaphysics out of science, you're taking Darwinism as many people know it along with it. Here's another way to think about it: Use whatever approach you like. Really, I'll probably find it interesting in its own terms, perhaps even persuasive. But everything I've learned and seen in these discussions over the years indicates that there is tremendous confusion about these 'worldviews' and about science itself, so that's the dead horse I'll be beating into the ground, to put it bluntly. Lastly, I can appreciate not wanting to get bogged down in the philosopher's morass. Common sentiment, that. At the same time, I can't accept the common attitude which suggests that philosophy and metaphysics go away if we stop talking about them or paying attention to them. I forget who said it (Mary Midgley, maybe) but there's a sentiment I like: People who eschew philosophy and metaphysics become enslaved to defunct versions of them.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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nullasalus: I believe your approach is mainly philosophical. I believe my approach (here) is mainly scientific and empirical. You say: "One problem I have is that a ‘stochastic process’ and a ‘deterministic process’ is an idealization, a model." That's not a problem, for me, but a merit. Science in only about models. You say: "But there’s that saying, the map is not the territory." One of my favourite! The point is, all science (and, I would add, all merely intellectual cognition) is only a map, never the territory. But the other important saying is that a map is as good as it is useful to move in the territory... You say: "On the other hand, we never directly observe ‘this unguided, purposeless, chance event’." This is the important point, and this is where, I believe, you are "scientifically" wrong. The tossing of a coin is, for all scientific purposes, a probabilistic system. I am not interested (and so, I believe, most scientists) in the philosophical (and, I would say, rather odd) possibility that some god wants exactly each event in that way for some hidden purpose. That problem has no interesting consequence for our scientific understanding of reality, at least at its present stage, and so I will not include it in my map, because it is of no help to my moving. The point is: a) We observe systems whose behaviour we can explain in terms of explicit necessity (we know both the variable and the laws). We call them "deterministic". b) We observe systems whose behaviour we cannot describe in terms of explicit necessity (we don't know all the laws, or all the variables, or both), but that we can very effectively describe in probabilistic terms (which is useful, and good). We call them "probabilistic". c) We observe systems whose behaviour we cannot explain in neither of those ways, because they exhibit the strange property of creating functional order which neither explicit necessity nor a probabilistic behaviour can ever generate. In all these systems, as far as we can empirically check, the intervention of a conscious intelligent agent is necessary for that to happen. We call these systems "designed".gpuccio
July 9, 2011
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GP: your inputs are always refreshing. In this case you are right to say let us stop loading up on metaphysical commitments. Chance, necessity and choice can be defined per empirical and simple model considerations so let us start there without begging big questions. Gkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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A good read: http://www.godofchance.com/pdf/God-of-Chance--electronic-version.pdfkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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Hi, KF! It's a great pleasure to be with you here. I want to compliment you with all my heart for the wonderful work you are doing.gpuccio
July 9, 2011
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also, Nullasalus:
I’m entirely comfortable with questioning Darwinism (if that view still has enough content to identify it as a clear position, anyway)
Me too, and I'd say, most evolutionary biologists. "Darwinism" is no longer a "clear position" - Darwin was a nineteenth century writer whose views started a revolution in thinking, but that thinking has gone hugely beyond his original conception, and many current views exist, most of which incorporate, but are not confined to, Darwin's concept of natural selection of variation.
and have a downright dismissive view of both naturalism (if that view… etc) and atheism.
Ah well, looks like we still have something to talk about then :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 9, 2011
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gpuccio, Thanks for the comments. A few quick replies. So, when we say that some output can be “caused by chance” (an imperfect way of expressing the point, I agree), what we mean is just: that result is reasonably likely in a system where chance modifications occur that can only be described according to probabilistic distributions. Well, first off, I think it depends on who you're talking to. I don't think everyone means the same thing when they talk about chance as a cause. I understand what both you and Mung mean by stochastic processes and deterministic processes. One problem I have is that a 'stochastic process' and a 'deterministic process' is an idealization, a model. I can appreciate that within the model there may be a variety of variables which can be altered and therefore which can change the result of the process. The problem is that an intelligent agent can know, orchestrate, and/or determine these variables and the outcomes of the process. I'm not objecting to the mere existence or use of these models or idealizations. They're pretty useful. But there's that saying, the map is not the territory. That is possible, but very difficult anyway. And it is not what we usually observe. Even if a mind did that, it would be for a purpose. My first comment is that difficulty is a relative concept: What's difficult for us may not be difficult for another mind, even another human mind. In a very short frame of time humanity's own abilities on this front have taken some drastic leaps forward. On the other hand, we never directly observe 'this unguided, purposeless, chance event'. We observe events, and (unless we're the ones guiding or purposing it, or see another doing such) label it. Often, I think, unreflectively. I'd agree that a mind which did that would probably be doing so for a purpose, but I think that just leads back to the design issue - purpose is compatible with all of the data. Every single event, no matter how tiny, may be purposeful in principle. Some events absolutely are purposeful. The event with no purpose whatsoever? Interesting metaphysical posit. Not very helpful otherwise. Now, if a mind wants to create a random pattern, it will usually use the simplest way to do that: utilize a natural probabilistic system, like tossing a coin, or any other appropriate natural system. Again, it would depend on the mind, the purpose, and the intention. To use a theological example: Would an omniscient, omnipotent being flip a coin? Does chance even exist for this being? Not chance as I've described it, I'd say. Now, chance does exist for us - insofar as 'chance' means 'outcomes we didn't predict'. Then again, some outcomes one person didn't foresee were foreseen by another person. That's not the sort of chance (chance as ignorance) I'm concerned about here - seems non-controversial to me.nullasalus
July 9, 2011
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Chance and Necessity was the title of Monod's book (after translation into English) and it's a good book. But most people who use the phrase have not read Monod's book, which is actually mostly about what he calls "teleonomy". Nullasalus: I agree with much of what you say (not surprisingly),particularly this: "The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance, and I see Necessity as subsumable under Design." I certainly don't think those three words carve Nature very effectively at its joints.Elizabeth Liddle
July 9, 2011
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Hi GP: Welcome back mon! Gkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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Null: The trichotomy of causal factors across chance, necessity and choice is a lot older than Monod, who just tried to cut out choice in his 1970 work. You can see it at work in Newton's General Scholium, and it haws roots all the way back to at least Plato. here is the latter in The Laws, Bk X, describing the evolutionary materialism of his day, c, 400 BC:
[[The avant garde philosophers, teachers and artists c. 400 BC] say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature [phusis, subsuming mechanical necessity, cf as follows] and of chance, the lesser of art [[ i.e. techne], which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . They say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them [i.e. necessity of nature in action] -of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art [choice], but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . .
In this context, necessity of nature is easiest to understand, just drop a heavy object. Chance does speak to accidental circumstances: it happens to be just so and could equally have been otherwise, as an immediate observation. Similarly a dropped die tumbling and moving till it settles as the eight corners and twelve edges hit the table top as they happen to be uncorrelated, will exhibit sensitive dependence to initial and intervening conditions so that the settling is a matter of how it comes out, and could just as easily be other than it is, per the initial conditions. As a result of this, the outcome of the die will show a statistical distribution that fits a random variable model. Similarly, as I discuss here, if we make up a model of a gas from a box with hard little marbles and pistons at the ends, and start at a standstill, then give a piston at one end a hard shove, we will soon see a random variable Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution pattern emerge, without any discernible impact of the precise initial conditions or circumstances of the initial shove, save that the overall kinetic energy in the system is dependent on it: ================================= ||::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::|| ||::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::||=== ||::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::|| ================================= (Let's hope the diagram comes out nicely as in the preview.) When it comes to quantum models, such random variable distributions for all we know are inherent. Laplace's demon who could predict the future from initial circumstances and dynamics, is out of a job in a world of quantum randomness and sensitive dependence on initial conditions that run tiny differences beyond our control through huge and rapid amplification. As I have pointed to repeatedly, as well, my dad in his days as a statistician used to use the lack of correlation between names listed in alphabetical order in a phone book and the assignment of phone numbers to get a poor man's random number tables. Names are not given by chance, and numbers are definitely not given by chance, but lack of correlation leads to a random distribution that is effectively as flat as you please. So, chance based processes -- whether by accident of clashing uncorrelated processed that may well be deterministic in themselves, or rising up from the quantum and kinetic theory world -- as described are real enough as a matter of empirical observation and correlation with ideal mathematics of random variables. the proper scientific approach at this point is to cut off the deep worldview debates and to work based on the empirical circumstances. The root cause of observed random or chance patterns will make itself evident at another level, no need to jump into deep and shark infested philosophical waters on so basic a matter. No sense forcing a debate on terms that cannot be decided on science, when there is a question with those who globalise science. So, accept chance in the sense described as a causal factor, e.g. the temperature of a body of gas is understood as the average random energy per molecule per degree of freedom. Pressure is the average rate of change of momentum at the wall of a container, due to random collisions, etc. (And at theological - philosophical level, God's presence everywhere and every-when makes the debate on determinism rather moot: God knows, he can give degrees of freedom that lead to desired overall stochastic patterns, e.g. such chance based processes are key to diffusion, a major phenomenon in all sorts of fields and deeply relied on by cell based living systems. Such chance is not going to run out of control and lead to chaos taking over creation. And BTW, a similar point extends to choice as a real phenomenon, in the teeth of determinists of various stripes. On this, I say -- with say Haldane et al -- that unless we are free to chose we are not free to think for ourselves and have no knowledge or reasoning, as unless we are free to follow warranting grounds, we are deeply delusional.) So, it is reasonable to look at chance phenomena and circumstances as empirical circumstances, and put the onward worldview debates to one side. In this sense of the immediate, actuating or influencing precursors to outcomes in phenomena, it is reasonable to view chance as an empirically relevant causal factor, the roots thereof being left to be determined at another level if appropriate. Similarly, we can see mechanically necessary cause-effect chains that can be modelled on differential equations with initial circumstances, etc; cf. our falling heavy object. These can be viewed as necessity, leading to the sign of natural regularity of pehnomena under similar initial conditions. As for choice, we see in brief above that unless we are free to choose, knowledge and reason are in doubt. So, choice is self-evidently real and an empirical fact of life. This too tends to leave characteristic patterns, such as functionally specific complex organisation and associated information. The latter being the stuff communicated in messages based on protocols, rules, symbols and controlled analogue variables modulated per mechanisms in communication networks. And, often measured based on symbol statistical frequency of observation patterns, per I = - log p. On this trichotomy and tested reliable empirical signs, applied at intuitive or more sophisticated, levels on metrics and analyses, we may discern chance, necessity and choice in action in phenomena. Fro instance, once a key is pressed on this PC, necessity leads to the symbol on screen. The key being pressed is largely a matter of choice, but typos happen by chance, and noise in the internet could in principle reduce the message to a garbled hash. this can be applied to cell based life, and we see there the sign of FSCI in DNA, pointing to design, whatever roles chance and necessity may also play on other aspects of the cell and life forms. Lifting our eyes to the heavens, we see evidence that points to a beginning at a finitely remote point in teh past, and of fine tuning that sets up a cosmos fitted for C chemistry cell based life. That arguably points to origin in a necessary being with the power, knowledge, skill and intent to create a cosmos. To a cosmic architect who may well use a design that has room in it for chance and choice. But, to accept chance, necessity and choice without any necessary locking in of grand metaphysical commitments, is a good and reasonable place to begin. Starting form what is reasonable and simple to see in action, we can then go on step by step to look at scientific evidence of cause at work and thence to worldview alternatives and their rationale. I see no sense in embroiling a simple enough empirical pattern in grand controversies that absent allowing evidence to speak on its own terms uncoloured by metaphysics, we will have no hope of resolving. Let us accept chance, necessity ans choice as empirical facts, then build on them. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
July 9, 2011
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nullasalus: I have not the time now to go into details about the very interesting points you make, but I will just offer a few thoughts to the discussion. First of all, I think we should remain strictly empirical in our definitions. The definition of chance is an unsolved problem in philosophy of science, at least IMO. But we can still manage the concept of chance very well in an empirical context. I will stick here to the usual concept of chance, and I will not go into the bigger problem of quantum chance. Usual chance is, obviously, a form of necessity. The laws which determin the results of a coin toss are the same laws which make a mchine work. But there is an important formal difference between a strictly deterministic, repetitive system, and a random system, where the working of those same laws gives results which cen realistically be described by a probability distribution, and in no other way. So, when we say that some output can be "caused by chance" (an imperfect way of expressing the point, I agree), what we mean is just: that result is reasonably likely in a system where chance modifications occur that can only be described according to probabilistic distributions. That is very different from strictly deterministic systems, where the output is highly, or totally, describable in terms of simple laws ans a small number of variables. Design, the working of a conscious intelligent being, is the only knowm principle in reality which can give a specific, functional arrangement to events and outputs which can neither be explained in the context of a strictly deterministic system, nor as a result of modifications describable in a strictly probabilistic way (not in a reasonably likely way). So, IMO it is perfectly true that design produces outputs which neither a strictly deterministic system, nor a probabilistic system, nor a mixture of both, can empirically give. So I do believe that the traditional ID view, if correctly expressed and understood, is perfectly valid. You say: "A mind could foresee or even determine a gaussian distribution. A mind could create or intend an uncorrelated pattern." That is possible, but very difficult anyway. And it is not what we usually observe. Even if a mind did that, it would be for a purpose. Now, if a mind wants to create a random pattern, it will usually use the simplest way to do that: utilize a natural probabilistic system, like tossing a coin, or any other appropriate natural system. To create complex random patterns without doing that would be a much more difficult task, and if we could demonstrate that a system generates complex and good random patterns without using any naturally random system, then paradoxically I believe that we could infer design in that system (I know, it is an extreme example, but it is just to make my point clear).gpuccio
July 9, 2011
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junkdnaforlife, This is generally a Catholic position, one that I lean towards as a Catholic myself. However, I find the design argument put forth in SiTC to be the the argument to best explanation. From there it gets confusing, and as you say complicated. I don't think what I'm saying here (re: chance skepticism) would lead one to reject SiTC's inference, at least as I understand it. Maybe some of the specific comparisons would need to be reconsidered, if Meyer puts a lot of stress on things that are not designed. Certainly one can question whether particular mechanisms and processes were responsible for this or that. They exist now as ideological worldviews propped up by their followers. I've run into people who equate Darwinism, even Neo-Darwinism, with "evolution, period." So if life evolves/evolved at all or in any way, Darwinism is true. I've also had people tell me that the views I have about evolution "are not what Darwin meant, and you reject Darwinism if you believe what you believe". My response has usually been "I don't care what Darwin thought, and if this means I reject Darwinism, so be it". I'd say that's a little like telling a fellow Catholic "I don't care what the Pope thinks", except a number of Catholics wouldn't bat an eye at that. But man, tell them you don't care what Darwin thought...nullasalus
July 8, 2011
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Null: "My personal leaning has always been towards theistic evolution," This is generally a Catholic position, one that I lean towards as a Catholic myself. However, I find the design argument put forth in SiTC to be the the argument to best explanation. From there it gets confusing, and as you say complicated. "I’m entirely comfortable with questioning Darwinism (if that view still has enough content to identify it as a clear position, anyway)," Exactly. Neo-Darwinism was once a clear scientific position, in the same sense that Marxism was a clear scientific position, both original versions have been since falsified, but have subsequently been rearranged in ways that they no longer... "[have] enough content to identify [them] [with] a clear position." They exist now as ideological worldviews propped up by their followers. One to advance the ideas of communism, the other to advance the ideas of atheism.junkdnaforlife
July 8, 2011
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Ilion, I'd agree. "Chance as cause" is an error that pops up repeatedly. Maybe what I'm arguing about here is closer to "chance as description". But either way, I tried to lay out my reasons for being a general chance skeptic.nullasalus
July 8, 2011
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"Well, apparently the ‘Chance and Necessity’ schtick rose to prominence with Monod." Sure; but that's no reason for otherwise sensible people to mindlessly repeat it … especially after its absurdity has been explained to them. Repeatedly.Ilion
July 8, 2011
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Ilion, As well you should. And, it’s not really your problem; it’s the problem of those persons wo refuse even to attempt comprehend that to speak of ‘chance’ causing anything is to speak absolute non-sense. Well, apparently the 'Chance and Necessity' schtick rose to prominence with Monod. Mung, Sure, I understand the difference between processes modeled as stochastic versus deterministic. But I note in the post that I'm not questioning the existence of gaussian distributions or of pragmatic models. Qualified senses of 'random' or 'chance' are not what I have my eye on here.nullasalus
July 8, 2011
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10:46 PM
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"The problem for me is that I question the very existence of Chance ..." As well you should. And, it's not really your problem; it's the problem of those persons wo refuse even to attempt comprehend that to speak of 'chance' causing anything is to speak absolute non-sense. One of my pet peeves with ID (or, at any rate, with most IDists) has to do with the constant careless (and false) way they have of speaking about 'chance' as having causal agency. 'Chance' does not, and cannot, cause anything. To speak of 'chance' or 'randomness' is to speak of a lack of correlation between two or more things (entities, objects, events, states, state-changes, etc and etc). Thus, to attribute causality to 'chance' is precisely to say that the so-called effect under discussion is not correlated to its so-called cause -- it is to say that the thing under discussion was not caused by anything, and therefore that it is not an effect of any cause. It is to assert that the thing "just happened;" not only without reason, but also without cause.Ilion
July 8, 2011
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Where's the beef? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_systemMung
July 8, 2011
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