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How ID sheds light on the classic free will dilemma

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The standard argument against free will is that it is incoherent.  It claims that a free agent must either be determined or non-determined.  If the free agent is determined, then it cannot be responsible for its choices.  On the other hand, if it is non-determined, then its choices are random and uncontrolled.  Neither case preserves the notion of responsibility that proponents of free will wish to maintain.  Thus, since there is no sensible way to define free will, it is incoherent. [1]

Note that this is not really an argument against free will, but merely an argument that we cannot talk about free will.  So, if someone were to produce another way of talking about free will the argument is satisfied.

Does ID help us in this case?  It appears so.  If we relabel “determinism” and “non-determinism” as “necessity” and “chance”, ID shows us that there is a third way we might talk about free will.

In the universe of ID there are more causal agents than the duo of necessity and chance.  There is also intelligent causality.  Dr. Dembski demonstrates this through his notion of the explanatory filter.  While the tractability of the explanatory filter may be up for debate, it is clear that the filter is a coherent concept.  The very fact that there is debate over whether it can be applied in a tractable manner means the filter is well defined enough to be debated.

The explanatory filter consists of a three stage process to detect design in an event.  First, necessity must be eliminated as a causal explanation.  This means the event cannot have been the precisely determined outcome of a prior state.  Second, chance must be eliminated.  As such, the event must be very unlikely to have occurred, such that it isn’t possible to have queried half or more of the event space with the number of queries available.

At this point, it may appear we’ve arrived at our needed third way, and quite easily at that.  We merely must deny that an event is caused by chance or necessity.  However, things are not so simple.  The problem is that these criteria do not specify an event.  If an event does meet these criteria, then the unfortunate implication is so does every other event in the event space.  In the end the criteria become a distinction without a difference, and we are thrust right back into the original dilemma.  Removing chance and necessity merely gives us improbability (P < 0.5), also called “complexity” in ID parlance.

What we need is a third criteria, called specificity.  This criteria can be thought of as a sort of compression, it describes the event in simpler terms.  One example is a STOP sign.  The basic material of the sign is a set of particles in a configuration.  To describe the sign in terms of the configuration is a very arduous and lengthy task, essentially a list of each particle’s type and position.  However, we can describe the sign in a much simpler manner by providing a computer, which knows how to compose particles into a sign according to a pattern language, with the instructions to write the word STOP on a sign.

According to a concept called Kolmogrov Complexity [2], such machines and instructions form a compression of the event, and thus specify a subset of the event space in an objective manner.  This solves the previous problem where no events were specified.  Now, only a small set of events are specified.  While KC is not a necessary component of Dr. Dembski’s explanatory filter, it can be considered a sufficient criteria for specificity.

With this third criteria of specificity, we now have a distinction that makes a difference.  Namely, it shows we still have something even after removing chance and necessity: we have complex specified information (CSI).  CSI has two properties that make it useful for the free will debate.  First, it is a definition of an event that is neither caused by necessity or chance.  As such, it is not susceptible to the original dilemma.  Furthermore, it provides a subtle and helpful distinction for the argument.  CSI does not avoid the distinction between determinism and non-determinism.  It still falls within the non-determinism branch.  However, CSI shows that randomness is not an exhaustive description of non-determinism.  Instead, the non-determinism branch further splits into a randomness branch and a CSI branch.

The second advantage of CSI is that it is a coherent concept defined with mathematical precision.  And, with a coherently definition, the original argument vanishes.  As pointed out in the beginning of the article, the classic argument against free will is not an argument against something.  It is merely an argument that we cannot talk about something because we do not possess sufficient language.  Properly understood, the classical argument is more of a question, asking what is the correct terminology.  But, with the advent of CSI we now have at least one answer to the classical question about free will.

So, how can we coherently talk about a responsible free will if we can only say it is either determined and necessary, or non-determined and potentially random?  One precise answer is that CSI describes an entity that is both non-determined while at the same time non-random.

——————-

[1] A rundown of many different forms of this argument is located here:http://www.informationphilosopher.com/freedom/standard_argument.html

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity

Comments
tgpeeler:
Nevertheless, my argument still stands. The existence (and prerequisites) of information show that naturalism is false.
Could you summarise that argument? I'm not seeing it.Elizabeth Liddle
July 13, 2011
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NR @ 18 "No. A baby is able to use information about the world, before acquiring language." A baby is able to use sense experience "information" about the world before acquiring language but I don't see how this contradicts anything I said. "Language existed in spoken form, before there was any alphabet. New words are being coined, so there is no fixed set of words. The “rules” seem to change over time, so maybe there aren’t really rules." I agree that all "alphabets" weren't written down in a purely oral language but I don't see this as a problem. Who said the symbols had to be written down? I just used English as an example because I thought the readers here would be familiar with it, including nuances. Plus, it's the only language I can really think in. As far as the rules changing over time. You've made my point. Thank you very much. The rules are ARBITRARY and in NO WAY are explained by reference to physical law. Thanks for pointing that out. I may also point out that saying that rules change is hardly the same thing as saying that there aren't any. "In a usenet post from 2000, linguist Jaques Guy wrote: “The ultimate secret of language is this: language is absurd, illogical. If it were not, it would not work.” I’m inclined to think he was right." How could he possibly be right? This guy is a linguist? And he doesn't recognize that all languages are made possible by the laws of identity and non-contradiction? This is self-refuting. It is nonsense of the highest order. My words to you are absurd and illogical but pay attention to them anyway. Yeah, right. The bar must be pretty low for linguist school... "It is very likely that dogs, cat, ants are all using information. Yet we normally don’t credit them with having free will." A point of agreement. Admittedly irrelevant agreement but agreement none the less. Some animals certainly communicate. Some do it with chemical "scents" and some do it with "clicks" or "dance steps." In all cases, the dance steps, for instance, performed by the orinating honey bee represent something else which the receiver honey bee understands so he knows to fly to where the food is. I explicitly ignored animal communication for this very reason. Nevertheless, my argument still stands. The existence (and prerequisites) of information show that naturalism is false. p.s. Thanks for dealing with something I actually said. I appreciate that. Even if I don't think you made a dent in the argument at least you addressed part of it.tgpeeler
July 13, 2011
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Nullasalus:
You know, Dennett could not have made himself more clear. I quoted the man expressly from his Intentionality article. He makes it crystal clear that he does not believe in ‘original intentionality’, only ‘derived intentionality’. Dennett saying outright that artifacts don’t have ‘real meanings’, that the intentionality of a “two-bitser” “in short–is “just metaphor”. And he says further that what separates him from his critics is that we part company when I claim to apply precisely the same morals, the same pragmatic rules of interpretation, to the human case. Dennett explicitly denies original intentionality. For him, all intentionality is derived, by his own words.
Thanks for the link. What makes you think that Dennett is saying that artifacts don't have "real meanings"? That a "derived meaning" is not real? In his last paragraph, the one you originally quoted, he says: "There is no more real, or intrinsic, or original intentionality than that." Dennett is not saying that there is no such thing as a "real" meaning, but that all meaning is "derived". Which seems to me perfectly true. Meanings are assigned by meaning-makers. They are not intrinsic. And so, if we want to understand meaning (intentionality, aboutness),we need to examine the processes by which we assign meaning.
What is true-ish is that Dennett does talk about “convenient ways of speaking”. Sure he does. But that’s true of anything anyone says
No, it’s not. Hence the term “useful fiction”, accent on the ‘fiction’. I gave the context Dennett spoke of explicitly – trying to play that off ‘oh, Dennett just means he’s speaking loosely’ doesn’t fly. He’s staking out his position.
Again, I'd like a citation for where Dennett talks about a "useful fiction". I'd like to see the context. I'm sure he's not speaking loosely - he doesn't. Philosophers tend not to!
I posted Dennett’s “sermon” so that it would be clear that he does not regard these things as mere delusions or conventions, but real things, of real value.
“Real value”, as defined by Dennett. “Real things”, metaphorically. The fact that you’re trying to counter express quotes from Dennett defining his position with some poetic fluff – a ‘sermon’ – speaks volumes.
Well, I hope it "speaks volumes" - that's why I chose what I thought was an important passage - but I would strongly disagree that it is "poetic fluff". I don't think Dennett is speaking any more "loosely" here than he does elsewhere! What, it seems to me, Dennett's core message is (it's certainly my own position) is that there's nothing unreal about the values we assign to things - that being able to account for phenomena at a physical level in terms of quarks and leptons does not mean that the phenomena themselves are "reduced" to quarks and leptons. I find it frustrating - and I'm sure Dennett does - that despite the fact that his entire argument is pointing out that big valuable things like morality, goodness, generosity, selves, intentions, intentionality, love are no less real and valuable just because we can account for them at a physical level. We may well be able to account for them, but we cannot comprehend them or evaluate them except at the high level - the level at which they have their reality - people insist on interpreting him as saying that nothing is real except quarks and leptons!
You seem to think that if Dennett expressly denies ‘real meaning’ here, but talks all cutesy and endearing there, that clearly the cutesy and endearing part wins. The idea that Dennett is being inconsistent, that he’s obfuscating? Why, that just gets ruled out from the start.
Because he is being entirely consistent. He's not denying "real meaning". The essay you cite does no such thing. You are simply extrapolating from his case that all meaning is derived that no meaning is real. He isn't. He's saying that derived meaning is real meaning. In other words, like most Dennett opponents you are inverting his entire argument! Which is to miss it entirely.
Love is real, right?
Love is real the way a bunch of rocks arranged in a heart shape ‘really is’ love, by Dennett’s reckoning. And you know, Bigfoot is real, so long as we’ve defined Bigfoot as “a delusion experienced by some people”, I suppose. (Wait, but delusions are derived, not intrinsic, so…)
No. And this is precisely why I know that you have Dennett completely wrong.
I’m waiting for the part where you suggest this cannot be true, because if Dennett were really denying original intentionality and saying all that exists is derived intentionality, his position would be incoherent or ridiculous. And, of course, Dennett being either of those things is not an option, so that’s ruled out – at least so far as you can quote something vaguely inspiring.
Well, I was naively assuming that you would assume that you must have misread him, rather than he was being inconsistent. However, now that I know that you regard him as inconsistent, and only saying what he really means when he says that there is no such thing as real meaning(even though he doesn't say that!), I'll try a different approach!
Here’s another one: Jim Jones can’t have been crazy, or even vile. He said nice thing sometimes. And if you quote an inspiring sermon, clearly that means the person in question has to be A-OK.
No. I've got to go to work now, but I'll try to explain to you what I think Dennett is saying when I get back. I do recommend reading Freedom Evolves, though. I think it's his best book, and I think it makes his position absolutely clear. And it isn't what you think it is :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 13, 2011
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I’ve read a lot of Dennett’s writings, and his argument doesn’t seem to me to amount to anything much like Nullasalus’s paraphrase: You know, Dennett could not have made himself more clear. I quoted the man expressly from his Intentionality article. He makes it crystal clear that he does not believe in 'original intentionality', only 'derived intentionality'. Dennett saying outright that artifacts don't have 'real meanings', that the intentionality of a "two-bitser" "in short--is "just metaphor". And he says further that what separates him from his critics is that we part company when I claim to apply precisely the same morals, the same pragmatic rules of interpretation, to the human case. Dennett explicitly denies original intentionality. For him, all intentionality is derived, by his own words. What is true-ish is that Dennett does talk about “convenient ways of speaking”. Sure he does. But that’s true of anything anyone says No, it's not. Hence the term "useful fiction", accent on the 'fiction'. I gave the context Dennett spoke of explicitly - trying to play that off 'oh, Dennett just means he's speaking loosely' doesn't fly. He's staking out his position. I posted Dennett’s “sermon” so that it would be clear that he does not regard these things as mere delusions or conventions, but real things, of real value. "Real value", as defined by Dennett. "Real things", metaphorically. The fact that you're trying to counter express quotes from Dennett defining his position with some poetic fluff - a 'sermon' - speaks volumes. You seem to think that if Dennett expressly denies 'real meaning' here, but talks all cutesy and endearing there, that clearly the cutesy and endearing part wins. The idea that Dennett is being inconsistent, that he's obfuscating? Why, that just gets ruled out from the start. Love is real, right? Love is real the way a bunch of rocks arranged in a heart shape 'really is' love, by Dennett's reckoning. And you know, Bigfoot is real, so long as we've defined Bigfoot as "a delusion experienced by some people", I suppose. (Wait, but delusions are derived, not intrinsic, so...) I'm waiting for the part where you suggest this cannot be true, because if Dennett were really denying original intentionality and saying all that exists is derived intentionality, his position would be incoherent or ridiculous. And, of course, Dennett being either of those things is not an option, so that's ruled out - at least so far as you can quote something vaguely inspiring. Here's another one: Jim Jones can't have been crazy, or even vile. He said nice thing sometimes. And if you quote an inspiring sermon, clearly that means the person in question has to be A-OK.nullasalus
July 12, 2011
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Hey all, I've a brief time to reply, so here are a couple assorted thoughts off the top of my head. @tgpeeler: I would agree that the attributes you list as necessary to create information are antithetical to naturalism. However, I would go further and say they are antithetical to determinism in general. This is because determinism exactly specifies the next state in a sequence, and there is no new information created. So, whenever information is created there is a break with the past states, whether they subsist in a physical or spiritual medium. @EL: I agree compression is an important part of making choices. However, the reason this can't be covered under chance and necessity is that generalized compression is a halting problem. See the last paragraph here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_compression_algorithm#Limitations @TG: One point in Aristotle's favor is that his account of reality is teleological. Free will and teleology go very well together, whereas in a non-teleological world we run into the classical dilemma and have trouble differentiating free will from chance and necessity.Eric Holloway
July 12, 2011
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Tragic Mishap @ 24. Exactly, explained much better than I'd tried (that was my point @ 17).Ilion
July 12, 2011
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You may be familiar with it, Mung, but you don't seem to understand it! Obviously when it comes to talking about intentional agents, teleological terms are entirely apposite.Elizabeth Liddle
July 12, 2011
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Yes, we're quite familiar with the way biologists find it "convenient" to speak in teleological terms while denying teleology. That's not news. :)Mung
July 12, 2011
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Well, I'm waiting for a context for that quotation. I've read a lot of Dennett's writings, and his argument doesn't seem to me to amount to anything much like Nullasalus's paraphrase:
So, for Dennett, there is no ‘fact of the matter’ what a person thinks or intends. There’s not even a fact of the matter that persons or selves exist. All that exists is metaphor and convenient ways of speaking. The only “selves” that exist are what are treated as selves by convention. And there’s no convention other than what’s treated as convention by another convention.
What is true-ish is that Dennett does talk about "convenient ways of speaking". Sure he does. But that's true of anything anyone says - the way we communicate is through language, and that language includes the capacity to denote abstractions like "love" and "justice" and "intention". These things exist - despite the fact that they cannot be weighed, or reflect light, and the fact that we have words to denote them does not mean they are nothing more than words. Words have referents - we talk about selves, and that word has a referent. The referent is as real as love. Love is real, right? I posted Dennett's "sermon" so that it would be clear that he does not regard these things as mere delusions or conventions, but real things, of real value. Which seems to me to render Nullasalus's rendering of his position unlikely to be correct!Elizabeth Liddle
July 12, 2011
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Elizabeth Liddle:
It is indeed a sermon. The argument is in the rest of the book
Dennett's sermonizing is irrelevant if it is indeed the case that his argument is as nullasalus says. Basically, nullasalus has presented an argument which you disagree with. In response, you post a Dennett sermon and say you agree with Dennett's sermon. All well and good. What does that have to do with the original issue raised by nullasalus? He's waiting for an argument.Mung
July 12, 2011
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M. Holcumbrink: Just wait till people force you to use the term libertarian free will. I agree with you, but the facts are these: Those who believe that the will exists and is free are and have always been the vast majority of human beings. Those who do not believe this are constantly in the position of having to explain why people believe in something that doesn't exist. So they make up various BS to explain what the will is under their system. Then people fight back and use the term "free will" to define exactly what they mean. Then over time the same enlightened few find explanations for why the "free will" exists but isn't really free, so the people come back with the term "libertarian free will." There's no telling where we will go from here. Perhaps "autonomous libertarian free will" is the next step?tragic mishap
July 12, 2011
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Plato, on his way back: The Laws, bk x: ___________ >> Ath. Nearly all of [the avant-garde], my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche, in effect the self-moved intelligent mind], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul’s kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body? Cle[nias]. Certainly. Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind. Cle. But why is the word “nature” wrong? Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise. [[ . . . .] Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. [--> how does one traverse the infinite in succession? Just to start . . . ] But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? [--> notice, the shift to the volitional] . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second. [[ . . . .] Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it? Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life? [--> notice now, embodiment of self-moving power] Ath. I do. Cle. Certainly we should. Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life? [[ . . . . ] Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul? [--> self-moving power is here seen as a reliable sign of soul, and in light of our self-experience of the power of choice, of being the beginning of action. Implicit, is that the alternatives, chance and/or necessity cannot credibly account for what the intelligent, choosing self can; starting with reason and meaningful language] Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things? Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things. Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer? Cle. Exactly. Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler? [[ . . . . ] Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.] >> _____________ And so our choice is plain, reject choice as foundational, to founder in self-referential incoherence. Accept choice, and face the implication that the self-moved chooser is the ultimate root of reality. It is a measure of the determination of many in our time that they will not have such a Chooser and Initiator to rule over them, that they will for preference CHOOSE instead -- oh, the irony -- that which faces blatant reductio ad absurdum on the credibility of thought. Let me snip from the just linked:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. d: These forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. e: For instance, Marxists commonly derided opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismissed qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? Should we not ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is little more than yet another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? And -- as we saw above -- would the writings of a Crick be any more than the firing of neurons in networks in his own brain? f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely error, but delusion. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be an illustration of the unreliability of our reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. i: The famous evolutionary biologist J. B. S. Haldane made much the same point in a famous 1932 remark:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (Highlight and emphases added.)]
j: Therefore, though materialists will often try to pointedly ignore or angrily brush aside the issue, we may freely argue: if such evolutionary materialism is true, then (i) our consciousness, (ii) the "thoughts" we have, (iii) the beliefs we hold, (iv) the reasonings we attempt and (v) the "conclusions" we reach -- without residue -- must be produced and controlled by blind forces of chance happenstance and mechanical necessity that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or logical validity. (NB: The conclusions of such "arguments" may still happen to be true, by astonishingly lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” or "warranted" them. It seems that rationality itself has thus been undermined fatally on evolutionary materialistic premises. Including that of Crick et al. Through, self-reference leading to incoherence and utter inability to provide a cogent explanation of our commonplace, first-person experience of reasoning and rational warrant for beliefs, conclusions and chosen paths of action. Reduction to absurdity and explanatory failure in short.) k: And, if materialists then object: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must immediately note that -- as the fate of Newtonian Dynamics between 1880 and 1930 shows -- empirical support is not equivalent to establishing the truth of a scientific theory. For, at any time, one newly discovered countering fact can in principle overturn the hitherto most reliable of theories. (And as well, we must not lose sight of this: one is relying on the legitimacy of the reasoning process to make the case that scientific evidence provides reasonable albeit provisional warrant for one's beliefs etc. Scientific reasoning is not independent of reasoning.) l: Worse, in the case of origins science theories, we simply were not there to directly observe the facts of the remote past, so origins sciences are even more strongly controlled by assumptions and inferences than are operational scientific theories. So, we contrast the way that direct observations of falling apples and orbiting planets allow us to test our theories of gravity. m: Moreover, as Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin reminds us all in his infamous January 29, 1997 New York Review of Books article, "Billions and billions of demons," it is now notorious that:
. . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel [[materialistic scientists] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
n: Such a priori assumptions of materialism are patently question-begging, mind-closing and fallacious. o: More important, to demonstrate that empirical tests provide empirical support to the materialists' theories would require the use of the very process of reasoning and inference which they have discredited. p: Thus, evolutionary materialism arguably reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, as we have seen: immediately, that must include “Materialism.” q: In the end, it is thus quite hard to escape the conclusion that materialism is based on self-defeating, question-begging logic. r: So, while materialists -- just like the rest of us -- in practice routinely rely on the credibility of reasoning and despite all the confidence they may project, they at best struggle to warrant such a tacitly accepted credibility of mind relative to the core claims of their worldview. (And, sadly: too often, they tend to pointedly ignore or rhetorically brush aside the issue.)
The choice, dear friends, is ours. GEM of TKI PS: I think "self-moved" needs now to be added to the terms we use on this. Complete, with its implication of a looping; for the whole looping ensemble has to start, with things like us that plainly have a beginning and are thus manifestly contingent. By contrast the ultimate self-moved, has no external causal necessary dependence.kairosfocus
July 12, 2011
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It is indeed a sermon. The argument is in the rest of the book :) But I thought it was worth reproducing the sermon, to indicate the nature of Dennett's moral stance, which is not as is often painted - a reductionist amoral one in which human intention is no more than a shopping list. Dennett is not a reductionist, quite the reverse. And his book is about morality, not amorality. It astonishes me how often he is characterised as an amoral reductionist. He isn't and I am not. Yet we are both materialists. Being a materialist does not stop you "compressing" what happens at the random amoral subatomic level into large scale meaningful units at the human level, any more than the fact that Shakespeare can be "reduced" to binary code means that it has no more meaning than binary code. The meaning emerges from the compression process.Elizabeth Liddle
July 12, 2011
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It's not an argument. It's a sermon.Mung
July 12, 2011
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Nullasalus: You quote Dennett, and write:
So, for Dennett, there is no ‘fact of the matter’ what a person thinks or intends. There’s not even a fact of the matter that persons or selves exist. All that exists is metaphor and convenient ways of speaking. The only “selves” that exist are what are treated as selves by convention. And there’s no convention other than what’s treated as convention by another convention.
No,that isn't what Dennett is saying, I don't think. Could you give me the source of the quotation? I think I recognise it, but I'm not sure what it's from. tgpeeler:
Exactly. Who in their right mind can even entertain garbage like this for a minute? It’s a reflection of how intellectually degenerate the “West” has become that we even have to acknowledge tripe like this much less spend precious time refuting it over AND over AND over again… It just astonishes me. I guess when someone gets to the point where they believe their own BS it’s pretty much all over but the shouting. Can you imagine betting your eternal future or the possibility of one on the intellectual sewage that Dennett spews? Ah well, to each his own, eh?
Checking in :) Yes, I "entertain garbage like this". For considerably longer than a minute even. But I would deny the charge of intellectual degeneracy. I'd also submit that nullasalus' paraphrase is not a good paraphrase of Dennett's view (it certainly isn't of mine, and I'm pretty sure mine is close to Dennett's). Let me quote Dennett on Free Will (Freedom Evolves, pp 305-306 in my edition): "Our brains have been designed by natural selection, and all the products of our brains have likewise been designed, on a much swifter timescale, by physical processes in which no exemption from causality can be discerned. How, then, can our inventions, our decisions, our sins and triumphs, be any different from the beautiful but amoral webs of the spiders? How can an apple pie, lovingly created as a gift of reconciliation, be any different, morally, from an apple, "cleverly" designed by evolution to attract a frugivore to the bargain of spreading its seeds in return for some fructose? If these are treated as rhetorical questions only, implying that only a miracle could distinguish our creations from the blind, purposeless creations of material mechanisms, we will continue to spiral around the traditional problems of free will and determinism, in a vortex of uncomprehending mystery. Human acts - love and genius, as well as crimes and sins, are just too far away from the happenings in atoms, swerving randomly or not, for us to be able to see at a glance how to put them into a single coherent framework [cf the OP point about compressiblity]. Philosophers for thousands of years have tried to bridge the gap with a bold stroke or two, either putting science in its place or putting human pride in its place - or declaring (correctly, but unconvincingly) that the incompatibility is only apparent without going into the details. By trying to answer the questions, by sketching out the non-miraculous paths that can take us all the way from senseless atoms to freely chosen actions, we open up handholds for the imagination. The compatibility of free will and science (deterministic of indeterministic - it makes no difference) is not as inconceivable as it once seemed." I agree with this :)Elizabeth Liddle
July 12, 2011
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Neil Rickert:
No. A baby is able to use information about the world, before acquiring language.
How is it that a baby changes what he believes to be the case without doing so based upon a language?Mung
July 12, 2011
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tgpeeler (#1)
Doesn’t the existence of information require the existence of a language?
No. A baby is able to use information about the world, before acquiring language.
What does a language consist of? It consists of a set of symbols (in this case the English alphabet), a set of words, called a vocabulary, and a set of rules called grammar and syntax for arranging those words into phrases, sentences, and paragraphs.
Language existed in spoken form, before there was any alphabet. New words are being coined, so there is no fixed set of words. The "rules" seem to change over time, so maybe there aren't really rules.
All language, or so I say, has at its core, the immutable, eternal, immanent, transcendent, sovereign (over truth) laws of logic.
In a usenet post from 2000, linguist Jaques Guy wrote: "The ultimate secret of language is this: language is absurd, illogical. If it were not, it would not work." I'm inclined to think he was right. (The usenet message ID was 3A056DE0.F5181A09@alphalink.com.au, if you have access to an archive of old usenet posts).
There is no algorithm or physical law that can explain the rational, purposeful creation of information. Indeed, free will is NECESSARY for the creation of information.
It is very likely that dogs, cat, ants are all using information. Yet we normally don't credit them with having free will.Neil Rickert
July 11, 2011
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Well, of course, the term “free will” contains a redundancy – for, a “will” who is not, in some regard, free, is not a will. And, of course, people, especially materialists, confuse “free will” with “the ability to make an uncoerced choice"; see, for instance, Vivid’s post #5. However, given the pervasive materialism in our culture, one ought to understamd that the phrase “free will” is pretty much necessary.Ilion
July 11, 2011
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"... Whatever makes those warm fuzzies warm." Exactly. 'Atheism' is the enemy of logical reasoning ... and of truth-speaking.Ilion
July 11, 2011
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"The standard argument against free will is that it is incoherent. It claims that a free agent must either be determined or non-determined. If the free agent is determined, then it cannot be responsible for its choices. On the other hand, if it is non-determined, then its choices are random and uncontrolled. Neither case preserves the notion of responsibility that proponents of free will wish to maintain. Thus, since there is no sensible way to define free will, it is incoherent. [1]" Hmmm ... so, because some persons engage in straw-manning, there is a dilemma about free-will? "Undetermined" does not equal "randon" ... though, materialist like to believe it does. "If the free agent is determined, then it cannot be responsible for its choices." That's not quite right ... if a "free agent" is determined, then, definitially, it is not a free agent.Ilion
July 11, 2011
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re 12 "I think I know where you are coming from, though." Reading your last paragraph I think you are right. "The term “free will” muddies the water by lumping the two together, which makes it impossible to discuss what is really going on in the hearts of men." I dont think free will exist its a bad term any way you cut it. I consider it an oxymoron. Non Posse Non Pecarre (I cannot not sin) Vividvividbleau
July 11, 2011
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vivid:
I have always preferred to use the term free choice which is what I think most people mean when they refer to free will
Personally, I would like to see the term “free” taken out altogether. But I would settle for it as long as there was a clear distinction made between “the will”, and “choice”. I think I know where you are coming from, though. Most people don’t see the distinction between the will - and choice, which is subsequent to and wholly dependant on the will (information points to a choice having been made, but the choice points to a will). All most people see is the choice aspect, and they know that they make choices “freely” as opposed to under compulsion. So when I read posts regarding “free will”, I can’t help but think that the author is putting the cart before the horse (no offense, Mr. Holloway). I really do wish that people would just call it “the will” instead of “free will”, and then speak of “choice” as that which flows from the will. The term “free will” muddies the water by lumping the two together, which makes it impossible to discuss what is really going on in the hearts of men. I really think that if the distinction is made clear, it becomes apparent that the will is in complete bondage, and only then can people really examine themselves, and only then do people start to see the necessity of a rebirth.M. Holcumbrink
July 11, 2011
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null - options other than substance dualism? Do tell. Unless it's just rehashed Aristotle. I hate that guy.tragic mishap
July 11, 2011
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null @ 4 "In other words, materialism – particularly the kind advanced by Dennett – is just a typical exercise in trying to polish a philosophical turd. It’s incoherent, it’s farcical,..." Exactly. Who in their right mind can even entertain garbage like this for a minute? It's a reflection of how intellectually degenerate the "West" has become that we even have to acknowledge tripe like this much less spend precious time refuting it over AND over AND over again... It just astonishes me. I guess when someone gets to the point where they believe their own BS it's pretty much all over but the shouting. Can you imagine betting your eternal future or the possibility of one on the intellectual sewage that Dennett spews? Ah well, to each his own, eh?tgpeeler
July 11, 2011
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EL - um, then what would a robust NMP ontology look like? Anything in there besides sub-atomic particles in energy fields? Besides that, I don't see that you addressed my argument at all. I guess I've forgotten how much fun it is to be argued with and ignored at the same time. This is the way it's supposed to work. Since we are allegedly people of reason, one of us makes an argument (premises and conclusion) and defends it. (Shows that it is sound. The form is valid and the premises are true. This means the conclusion is necessarily true.) I did this with a modus tollens argument about naturalism and information. The argument is valid. That is, the conclusion necessarily follows from the conclusion. I explained this. The argument is sound. That means my premises are true. I explained this. That means my conclusion (naturalism is necessarily false) is necessarily true. If I read you correctly, you disagree with me about the definition of NMP but then provide no offering of your own while completely ignoring my argument. Let's try to focus. If you disagree that naturalism means what I say it means then we can play dueling references. You will lose that battle. NMP means exactly what I said it does. So do you hold to that or not? If not, what do you hold to?tgpeeler
July 11, 2011
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Eric,
Does ID help us in this case? It appears so. If we relabel “determinism” and “non-determinism” as “necessity” and “chance”, ID shows us that there is a third way we might talk about free will. In the universe of ID there are more causal agents than the duo of necessity and chance. There is also intelligent causality.
I find that this confuses the issues rather than providing a new way of discussing them. Many versions of incompatibilist free will philosophies posit mind (which you call "intelligent cause") as being causal and distinct from (or transcendent to) physical cause. But chance is not a "causal agent" in anyone's philosophy. Chance is a lack of discernable correlation, not some sort of agency that makes things happen.
However, CSI shows that randomness is not an exhaustive description of non-determinism.
I think this is also confused. "Randomness" is an attribute of a set of states or events, while "non-determinism" refers to a philosophical position, namely that not all events are inevitably determined by their antecedent causes. So "randomness" is not any sort of description of "non-determinism", exhaustive or otherwise. Rather, I think you mean to say that not everything that is undetermined is uncaused, or that not everything that is not caused by lawlike physical necessity is not caused by something else. Again you just seem to be arguing for contra-causal free will, but muddling up the vocabulary.
Instead, the non-determinism branch further splits into a randomness branch and a CSI branch.
You're saying that the "determined branch" holds those things caused by physical necessity, and in the undetermined branch things are either uncaused (which you call "randomness") or caused by mind/intelligence. The fact that you haven't said what you mean by "randomness" is making it hard to keep this clear. It's quite a difficult concept, but it doesn't simply mean "uncaused" (certain types of events we call "random" can be fully determined by antecedent physical cause). I agree that there is a vital connection between ID and the free will debate, but it is hardly the one you suggest. Rather than helping to clarify or answer the problem of free will, ID implicitly assumes one particular solution - libertarianism. It may well be true that mental cause is distinct from physical cause, but ID provides no evidence that this is the case, and does nothing to resolve this ancient debate.aiguy
July 11, 2011
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vidid, I'm good with free choice. :-)tgpeeler
July 11, 2011
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Hi, thanks for the comments all. This post is the first in a series where I investigate how ID provides new insights into areas other than biology. Stay tuned!Eric Holloway
July 11, 2011
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null re 4 Love it. Vividvividbleau
July 11, 2011
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tgp "I haven’t really thought about it that much, but I think I’m ok with saying that all choices are “determined” since this just seems another way to describe causality. Nothing happens in a finite universe without a cause and no choice gets made (in this finite universe, at least) without a cause, either. The real issue is who chooses?" I have always preferred to use the term free choice which is what I think most people mean when they refer to free will. Free choice is any choice that is self determined. The freedom to choose whatever we most want at the time the choice is made given the options available to us at that moment. Vividvividbleau
July 11, 2011
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