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Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

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First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
The relationship between matter and thinking became more clear to me when I stumbled upon the ‘Chinese Room Thought Experiment’ (CRTE) by John Saerle. Searle argues that without understanding (or intentionality), we cannot describe what the computer is doing as "thinking". But not only does CRTE show us that computers cannot think, it also shows us, in my opinion, that matter cannot think. I see a perfect analogy: just like in CRTE there is no conversation (only the false perception of a conversation), there can only arise the false perception of thinking from matter.Box
January 8, 2013
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KN, you state: "So what? I never indicated that I thought we were Turing machines." Well that puts you in quite the evidential dilemma doesn't it KN?, you deny the reality of mind, and now, apparently in your denial of 'humans as Turing machines', you deny any basis in reality altogether as to where thoughts can possibly proceed from. Pray tell, just what is generating your thoughts if it is not your brain, which has more switches than all the computers on earth, or your mind which originated from the breath of God?bornagain77
January 8, 2013
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JDH@128,
So I rightly state that under your assumptions, the conclusions of your brain have no special place in the realm of evidence.
I think this is correct. A person's conclusions may very well be incorrect or inaccurate. Yes. We agree. Because individual conclusions have no special place in the realm of evidence, WJM's evidence for God items 1,2,3,4,and 6 must be looked at skeptically. I understand you think I have made a religious choice to think atheism is more likely correct than any theism. I don't hope to convince you otherwise. All I have is my experience and my story to recommend how I came to hold the views I do. I was born into a Jewish home and trained as a medievalist. In both regards I have discovered the love of Christ, as you call it. That love often finds scriptural expression in John, a book I personally consider among the most wicked ever devised and interpreted. Although your closing message is distastefully arrogant--as if "the Love of Christ" were the only place one could go if one concluded that an omniscient God existed (or Flew's deistic God)--you may be interested to know that my personal opinion of Jesus is he is one of the duller characters in literature. Besides being almost entirely derivative, he is overshadowed by virtually everyone else with a speaking part. If I were to admire a religious figure, I would certainly turn to someone like the Buddha as being superior in life and wisdom.
LarTanner
January 8, 2013
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The Argument From Reason – resource page
BA77, thanks for this link and the one to Wigner!Mung
January 8, 2013
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Hey kf, I think you have an apostrophe out of place on your web page. :) "A Basic Philosophers’ Toolkit" Perhaps rename to: "A Basic Philosophy Toolkit" Or if you're into alliteration: Finding A Foundation for Philosophers Philosophical Foundations for Future Philosophers Philosophical Foundations for Former PhilistinesMung
January 8, 2013
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Hi William J. Murray, I'd just like to thank you for an excellent first post. There's a lot of food for thought here, and I very much enjoyed reading your argument for the rationality of theism. Kantian Naturalist, Your account explains why the brain is likely to be good at pattern matching, especially in cases where this is conducive to survival. However, much of our reasoning is carried out at a higher level: that of critical evaluation - your own post being a perfect example. When we critically evaluate a hypothesis, or discuss the theoretical merits of one hypothesis as opposed to another, what is at issue is mot the pattern in Nature that needs to be explained, but the nature of a good explanation. (Consider the dispute as to whether the multiverse is a good hypothesis.) Again, when we discuss the merits of competing normative theories - e.g. different theories of morality - we are not trying to match patterns. What is at stake is something deeper: what criteria does an adequate ethical theory need to satisfy? It is these critical-evaluative questions which a naturalistic account of mind leaves unexplained. On a naturalistic account, there seems to be no good reason why we should be capable of addressing such issues, let alone arriving at a good answer.vjtorley
January 8, 2013
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Graham2, when confronted with the obvious absurdity of his assertion that there is one and only one science, retorts that there is but one and only one science text. And then backs that up with a philosophical argument.Mung
January 8, 2013
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KN, When one defines "rational thought" as "my thoughts and assertions being about the world", and AS "just what happens in a natural cognitive system", then one has equivocated "rational thought" to the point of meaninglessness. It has no distinction from any thoughts and assertions anyone has; everything we say and think is by definition "rational". If brains by nature "reliably detect real patterns in the world", and all such thoughts and assertions and conclusions are rational, then both the atheistic materialist and the kantian naturalist and the spiritual theist have rationally detected real patterns and have come to equally rational conclusions from them. Thus, you are arguing for no significant reason here. Surely you're not going to say that I'm wrong? Since we have equal natural pattern recognition and reasoning machines running our system, by what means will you argue otherwise? You have nothing to appeal to other than that which you have equivocated into meaninglessness. You cannot claim that the lengths marked on my ruler are wrong by comparing it to the lengths on your ruler; what prevents your ruler from being wrong as well? Without assuming an objective arbiter of ruler lengths, there is no resolution to your self-referential problem. Such sophistry isn't an argument; it's the abandonment of argument in favor of positioning oneself as "beyond" the argument and "above" such quaint and archaic concepts as right and wrong, true and false, rational and irrational, and natural and designed. That you make your arguments here as if they matter, and as if your "natural reasoning" is somehow producing more truthful assertions or conclusions than anyone else's demonstrates your incapacity to live as if what you promulgate here is true. IOW, you argue as if what you are arguing for is not really true; you argue as if what you are arguing against is actually the case. Which is the case for most who do not begin with primacy of mind as fundamental. Caused minds offer only caused thoughts and conclusions and caused sensations about the validity of those conclusions; IOW, there is nothing in your philosophy that differentiates your text here as more than the barking of a dog that has been also caused to think it has said something wise and meaningful.William J Murray
January 8, 2013
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So what? I never indicated that I thought we were Turing machines. And thinking that we are not Turing machines says nothing at all about the deep metaphysics of mind, at least not without several other assumptions, each of which would be need to be articulated and examined. In any event, I only popped in to give a brief overview of why a naturalist who knows a great deal about cognitive neuroscience and philosophy of language can have every reason to believe that Darwin and Haldane are mistaken.Kantian Naturalist
January 8, 2013
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But KT@127 there is more than a quantitative gap between man and the cat. The cat does not plan for future abstract events in the abstract world of future time. This is why no animal society ( although it may contain many complex relationships ) results in an economy of stocks and bonds, a system of educational institutions, a development of a culture of art and literature, anything that goes beyond survival. It is easy to come up with a natural model for simple stimulus and response. I believe this is part of the natural world. But God said, "Let us make man in our image." Man has a mind capable of going beyond stimulus and response. Man is able to make arbitrary decisions not based stimulus and response, but by weighing two abstract ideas. This type of decisions by its very nature can not be an extension of stimulus, response. Now I fully admit man, who has a physical body, is not completely free from the effect of the natural. Lack of sleep makes it harder for me to express the activity of the immaterial mind in my body. But it does not change the nature of abstract thought. An argument between Socrates and Euthyphro about piety does not come from a natural basis. It is an argument that completely takes place in the abstract world of ideas. By its very nature, the overwhelming evidence is that this type of argument has qualities to it that exclude it from the realm of what is purely the result of the natural. This is not a mere quantitive difference as your theory purports. Abstract thinking can never be generated by stimulus and response because of the demands of arbitrary decisions which actually generate functionally specified information ex nihilo. I thank you for your carefully selected words, but I must completely disagree with your conclusion.JDH
January 8, 2013
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Two more quotations on matter and intelligence: "... it is as impossible to conceive that ever pure incogitative matter should produce a thinking intelligent Being, as that nothing should of itself produce Matter.", John Locke, Essay Concerning Human Understanding(1690) IV, x, 10 “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.", Haldane [1927] 1932. ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.] - Personally I feel drawn to Locke's position. I see nothing in matter that resembles thinking. Matter is simply not in the 'thinking business', because atoms are occupied with other activities.Box
January 8, 2013
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KN, can you resolve this dilemma of evidence facing the materialist? Alan’s brain tells his mind, “Don’t you blow it.” Listen up! (Even though it’s inchoate.) “My claim’s neat and clean. I’m a Turing Machine!” … ‘Tis somewhat curious how he could know it. Are Humans merely Turing Machines? Alan Turing extended Godel’s incompleteness to material computers, as is illustrated in this following video: Alan Turing & Kurt Godel – Incompleteness Theorem and Human Intuition – video http://www.metacafe.com/w/8516356 And it is now found that,,, Human brain has more switches than all computers on Earth – November 2010 Excerpt: They found that the brain’s complexity is beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study: …One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor–with both memory-storage and information-processing elements–than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth. http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20023112-247.html Yet supercomputers with many switches have a huge problem dissipating heat,,, Supercomputer architecture Excerpt: Throughout the decades, the management of heat density has remained a key issue for most centralized supercomputers.[4][5][6] The large amount of heat generated by a system may also have other effects, such as reducing the lifetime of other system components.[7] There have been diverse approaches to heat management, from pumping Fluorinert through the system, to a hybrid liquid-air cooling system or air cooling with normal air conditioning temperatures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercomputer_architecture But the brain, though having as many switches as all the computers on earth, does not have such a problem dissipating heat,,, Appraising the brain’s energy budget: Excerpt: In the average adult human, the brain represents about 2% of the body weight. Remarkably, despite its relatively small size, the brain accounts for about 20% of the oxygen and, hence, calories consumed by the body. This high rate of metabolism is remarkably constant despite widely varying mental and motoric activity. The metabolic activity of the brain is remarkably constant over time. http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10237.full THE EFFECT OF MENTAL ARITHMETIC ON CEREBRAL CIRCULATION AND METABOLISM Excerpt: Although Lennox considered the performance of mental arithmetic as “mental work”, it is not immediately apparent what the nature of that work in the physical sense might be if, indeed, there be any. If no work or energy transformation is involved in the process of thought, then it is not surprising that cerebral oxygen consumption is unaltered during mental arithmetic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC438861/pdf/jcinvest00624-0127.pdf Does Thinking Really Hard Burn More Calories? – By Ferris Jabr – July 2012 Excerpt: So a typical adult human brain runs on around 12 watts—a fifth of the power required by a standard 60 watt lightbulb. Compared with most other organs, the brain is greedy; pitted against man-made electronics, it is astoundingly efficient. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=thinking-hard-calories Moreover, the heat generated by computers is primarily caused by the erasure of information from the computer,,, Landauer’s principle Of Note: “any logically irreversible manipulation of information, such as the erasure of a bit or the merging of two computation paths, must be accompanied by a corresponding entropy increase ,,, Specifically, each bit of lost information will lead to the release of an (specific) amount (at least kT ln 2) of heat.,,, Landauer’s Principle has also been used as the foundation for a new theory of dark energy, proposed by Gough (2008). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle Thus the brain is either operating on reversible computation principles no computer can come close to emulating (Charles Bennett), or, as is much more likely, the brain is not erasing information from its memory as material computers are required to do, because our memories are stored on a ‘spiritual’ level rather than on a material level,,, A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm To support this view that ‘memory/information’ is not stored in the brain but on a higher 'spiritual' level, one of the most common features of extremely deep near death experiences is the ‘life review’ where every minute detail of a person’s life is reviewed: Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ Thus, humans are not merely Turing Machines!bornagain77
January 8, 2013
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LT@123 It's not that I demand that a conclusion from a naturally constructed brain to be 100% incorrect, it's just that it the conclusions of that natural mind can't be trusted. This is what I mean by a solid basis. You have no reason to believe your answers from a natural mind are 100% correct, I have no reason to believe that they are 100% incorrect. So I rightly state that under your assumptions, the conclusions of your brain have no special place in the realm of evidence. It seems you have only supported my claims and I await your admitting that you have very little credible evidence on your side and that it is a religious choice you use to believe materialism. After you admit this we can start correctly weighing the evidence, correctly using Occam's razor, and I believe, if you are intellectually honest you will believe as Antony Flew concluded - in an omniscient God. Hopefully from that point we can proceed to the discovery of the Love of Christ.JDH
January 8, 2013
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I'm going to try to avoid getting mired in this conversation, because I don't think conversations like this are at all productive, but I suffer from weakness of will. One often hears things like this:
Do you not see that since you claim a) no mind beyond that which is built up by evolution using natural law – b) you have no basis to believe that the conclusions made by a naturally constructed mind match truth?
This is basically the same worry that Descartes poses in the first Meditation: if my cognitive capacities are the result of chance and necessity, then I have no reason to believe they are reliable. And once you find yourself asking Cartesian questions, it's hard to avoid Cartesian answers -- I know that my mind is reliable because God guarantees that my mind is reliable when I use it properly -- and then the attendant Cartesian-inspired difficulties, such as the mind-body problem, etc. But it is not terribly difficult to free oneself entirely from the whole Cartesian problematic which has shaped modern epistemology, and when that is done, the problem of naturalism can be looked at afresh. When a cat stalks a bird, we have no problem with the thought that the cat's brain is reliably detecting patterns of movement, shape, etc. which are causally grounded in the bird's activity. Why, then, should we think that in our case, there's any hint of a 'gap' between thought and the world? If there's no 'gap' for cats (or whatever), why would be one for us? Such considerations could be developed extensively in both breadth and depth -- the point is, a naturalist has every reason to believe that her brain, as a product of variation and selection, reliably detects real patterns and that, as a result, her judgments refer to the world (if they are true) or do not (if they are false). I do not think it makes any sense to suppose that my brain is reliably detecting real patterns in the world, but that none of my rational judgments refer to the world. (What gives that supposition the aura of plausibility is the crypto-dualism on which it depends.) In other words, rational thought -- my thoughts and assertions being about the world, referring to it, getting it right (or wrong) -- is just what happens in a natural cognitive system that includes (but of course is not limited to) a complex brain that has been 'programmed' with language and culture, and brains reliably detect real patterns in the world because that's just what brains do in order to mediate between sensory input and motor output.Kantian Naturalist
January 8, 2013
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PS: I have also above put forth skeletal inductive, inference to best explanation forms of classic arguments to God. I think the cumulative metaphysical commitments to reject the "rope" intertwined from these, carries a stiff metaphysical commitments price, e.g. by nature of what a candidate necessary being is, rejection of God -- by definition such a being -- entails the commitment that God is impossible, which I suspect is going to be hard to sustain post the free will defense in the teeth of the problem of evils, multiplied by the Boethius point on needing to also justify the objectivity of good, thence morals. Kindly explain what price you are willing to pay, why.kairosfocus
January 8, 2013
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LarTanner, are you trying to reason with your material brain? But why should your brain state care if its brain state is more true than anyone else's particular brain state and what makes you think that by the force of reason alone you can change anyone else's brain state? The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences - Eugene Wigner - 1960 Excerpt: certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess.,,, http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html “One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.” —C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry (aka the Argument from Reason) C.S. Lewis, Reason, and Naturalism: An Interview with Dr. Jay Richards - audio http://www.idthefuture.com/2012/12/cs_lewis_reason_and_naturalism.html The Argument From Reason - resource page http://www.reasonsforgod.org/the-argument-from-reason/ “If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.” - William J Murray "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 Self-Refuting Belief Systems - Cornelius Hunter - September 2012 Excerpt: Relativism states that there are no absolute truths, but if true then that statement is an absolute truth. Likewise the statement that evolution is a fact, if true, means that we cannot know evolution to be a fact. Why? Because with evolution our minds are nothing more than molecules in motion—an accidental biochemistry experiment which has yielded a set of chemicals in a certain configuration. This leads to what Darwin called “the horrid doubt”: "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind." Darwin to Graham, William - 3 July 1881 Today evolutionists agree that while a random collection of chemicals doesn’t know anything, nonetheless over long time periods and under the action of natural selection, phenomena which we refer to as knowledge, will and consciousness will spontaneously emerge. And how do we know this? Because evolution occurred and we know that it occurred. Therefore evolution must have created the phenomena of knowledge. The proof is left to the student. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2012/09/self-refuting-belief-systems.html “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter”. J. B. S. Haldane ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.bornagain77
January 8, 2013
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@LarTanner 123 “But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?” Darwin, July 3, 1881Box
January 8, 2013
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JDH, Your argument #1 on fallible minds is not so strong. If you accept the premise that our minds are natural products/byproducts, and if you accept that our cognitive abilities are limited, why does it then follow that any conclusion anyone should reach is 100% incorrect? Don't you think that science and scientific methods, as an aid to both our senses and cognitive abilities, can help us to make conclusions about the world that are consistent, if nothing else?LarTanner
January 8, 2013
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LT: We are familiar with the IEP, which is a good phil reference, sometimes better than SEP as more concisely to the point. It summarised arguments for atheism as follows:
Arguments for the non-existence of God are deductive or inductive. Deductive arguments for the non-existence of God are either single or multiple property disproofs that allege that there are logical or conceptual problems with one or several properties that are essential to any being worthy of the title “God.” Inductive arguments typically present empirical evidence that is employed to argue that God’s existence is improbable or unreasonable. Briefly stated, the main arguments are: God’s non-existence is analogous to the non-existence of Santa Claus. The existence of widespread human and non-human suffering is incompatible with an all powerful, all knowing, all good being. Discoveries about the origins and nature of the universe, and about the evolution of life on Earth make the God hypothesis an unlikely explanation. Widespread non-belief and the lack of compelling evidence show that a God who seeks belief in humans does not exist. Broad considerations from science that support naturalism, or the view that all and only physical entities and causes exist, have also led many to the atheism conclusion.
The short responses are obvious. Post Plantinga, the deductive argument on evils is dead, and all such arguments face the problem highlighted ever since by Boethius: whence good, if there is no God. The evidence of the natural world, with mounting force is that the observed cosmos is designed, is finitely old, and was designed to host C-chemistry, cell based life. While many are determined atheists, the overall consensus of humanity is not in their favour. And, in a context of the Christian faith, the life, death, resurrection of Jesus with the 500 witnesses and the prophecies leading to the miraculous spreading of the church against all odds, and to the transformation of life of millions of people and entire communities is considerable direct evidence of dealings with God. Evidence that, if it is all delusional, tosses us back to the fundamental problem of evolutionary materialist atheism. Namely, it is self referentially incoherent when it has to address the grounding of the knowing, reasoning mind. I think we can proceed on the issues, especially if you want the IEP summary to speak for you. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2013
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I suspect I am the atypical person that follows such a forum. I am a 63 year old retired avid cyclist currently working my way through an injury and struggling to find things of interest to keep busy. I think most secular folks claim to be atheist because its vogue and not through intellectual considerations. I hear people say "I just don't buy it". I think this speaks to the point that it's not a debate about the evidence for "no god" but rather a debate about the evidence for god.garoskilly
January 8, 2013
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@Graham2: Not sure if you missed my post at #68 because of the volume of incoming posts, non the less, I'm still curious as to why you believe human experience (such as NDE's, and testimonials) to be hopeless when it comes to evidence?KRock
January 8, 2013
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Timaeus, thanks for the Jaki, Hooykaas, Collingwood reference, I plugged it into google and found a book that looks well worth reading: The Blackwell Companion to Science and Christianity http://books.google.com/books?id=qqGRqJT4aNQC&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq#v=onepage&q&f=falsebornagain77
January 8, 2013
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Here are the questions I would like any materialist to answer. I ask these in good faith not understanding why you maintain your position against the prevailing evidence. I see your position as having several inherent flaws. By inherent flaw I mean that the problem is built into your faith assumptions and no amount of logic can remove it. So in logical order, 1. Do you not see that since you claim a) no mind beyond that which is built up by evolution using natural law - b) you have no basis to believe that the conclusions made by a naturally constructed mind match truth? 2. Do you not see that a) given the above fact that you have no solid basis for claiming the truth of your position -b) your claim of materialism as the right answer holds no special place? 3. Do you not see that a) by insisting on repeatable scientific evidence which can be repeated by you in a controlled experiment b) you exclude all evidence which would be under the control of an independent mind or God? 4. Do you not see that you believe materialism by faith assumption and in spite of the evidence not because of the evidence? Believe me, I do not ask these questions because I want to inflict pain or hurt. I am just truly flabbergasted that you do not see 1-4. If "in spite of the evidence" you choose to still believe materialism, then fine. But at least be honest enough to claim your position by faith, and not by preponderance of the evidence.JDH
January 8, 2013
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ecs2, I have to agree I admire the bravery that G2 has shown in trying to defend the indefensible, but now if he would only show as much bravery in following the evidence where it leads no matter what, instead of holding his a priori philosophical bias. ,,, Here is another atheist I admired for his bravery: Anthony Flew - The Honest Ex-Atheist - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbyTwmaJArUbornagain77
January 8, 2013
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G2 I appreciate you presenting a contrarian view. It has been a lively discussion. What I have found most interesting however is what has been unsaid. You seem to have avoided some questions, especially where the accuracy of your points is questioned. What does it mean for you that some of your assumptions or assertions are demonstrably false? Do you question anything or look for answers or do you just push forward? I think this is what Mr. Murray is referring to by intellectual honesty - are you willing to examine the issues objectively, without preconceptions.ecs2
January 8, 2013
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The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, billed as "a peer-reviewed academic resource," presents a history and positive case for atheism in its article at http://www.iep.utm.edu/atheism/.LarTanner
January 8, 2013
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T: One of the reasons I find Wiki's article on ID such a travesty, is that while advertising its vaunted NPOV, it does not provide the sort of balanced, accurate and fair overview that we could simply refer a G2 there, instead of to a clutch of books of multiple hundreds of pages apiece. That is a real disservice. And, I suspect that instead, through informal or formal sources he thought were giving him a good picture, G2 has been programmed with some talking points, perspectives, attitudes and expectations that are leading him off the deep end. In default of which, I suggest G2 should at least read the NWE introduction here before commenting again, and should read it knowing that it gives a more accurate and fair summary than something that sounds like the Wiki article. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2013
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Graham2 @ 90 said: "The Science we practice now doesnt invoke the supernatural in any way, we have grown up. If you dont agree, then can you provide an example ?" Apparently, you missed where I provided such examples in the O.P. From Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands, The Lancet, Volume 358, Issue 9298, Pages 2039 - 2045, 15 December 2001 :
With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this xperience.31 NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. Another theory holds that NDE might be a changing state of consciousness (transcendence), in which identity, cognition, and emotion function independently from the unconscious body, but retain the possibility of non-sensory perception. Research should be concentrated on the effort to explain scientifically the occurrence and content of NDE. Research should be focused on certain specific elements of NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences.
It appears that the authors have invoked a transcendent consciousness that can operate and sense independent of the physical body as a potential explanation for the NDE phenomena in their research. The interesting thing about universally negative claims ("The Science we practice now doesnt invoke the supernatural in any way") is that it only takes one example to disprove it. You might beware of making such grandiose claims in the future, especially when they are apparently rooted in an ideological, dismissive certainty that blinds you to conclusive evidence to the contrary. BTW, the only reason I decided to disprove your universally negative claim, which was shifting the burden on your part, is because I used that very kind of evidence to support the case I made in the O.P. Perhaps you should have actually read and pursued the evidence I offered in the O.P. before making such an easily falsified assertion. Instead of simply resting on your ideological certainty about the scope of scientific research and publication, you might at least first have a look around - actually try to find scientific research that "invokes the supernatural in any way". In the age of google and the internet, ignorance of such information can only be willfully self-inflicted.William J Murray
January 8, 2013
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PS: G2, have you done a good phil 101? I suggest here may help. Inference to best current empirically reliable explanation in the context of live, uncensored alternatives/schools of thought and the building of a cumulative case [think: rope not chain] -- an idealised courtroom is I gather actually a model that goes back to Bacon -- is also how a lot of how real world inductive reasoning in science etc works, forget that stuff on simplistic generalisation or superficial analogies.kairosfocus
January 8, 2013
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Graham2 (88, 89): We have ancient Greek authors arguing that Zeus is not the cause of the thunder and that disease is not caused by evil spirits. They're from the 5th century B.C. So what we've learned in the past 400 years has nothing to do with that. Regarding the past 400 years, what you fail to perceive is that the reason scientists came to believe that the world is ruled by orderly laws in the first place is that science grew up in a Christian milieu and understood God as a cosmic lawgiver. Why should nature be orderly? Why isn't it a chaos, with one unexplained thing happening after another? And if there are laws, why are those laws accessible to human reason? All of these questions were asked and answered with reference to Christian theology, by Bacon, Descartes, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Boyle, etc. This is now well-known to historians of science. You wrote to Steve Gann: "The Science we practice now doesnt invoke the supernatural in any way" Neither does ID. ID says that living things could not have obtained the structures and functions they have without the input of information. It isn't committed to saying that the information is input by supernatural means. The fact that you think it *is* so committed tells me that you aren't familiar with the claims of ID. Have you read Michael Denton's second book, *Nature's Destiny*? If you haven't, I would suggest that you withhold further criticism of ID until you have. There is a difference between saying (i) that there is a mind or intelligence responsible for certain features of nature, and (ii) that a divine being intervenes in the processes of nature. Until you grasp this distinction, you will confuse ID with creationism. And we weary of explaining this over and over again, to people who object to ID, based on hearsay, without taking the time to actually read ID books and articles and learn what ID people are arguing. If you are faking it based on secondhand knowledge, please stop wasting all our time here. Read Behe's books. Read Denton. Read *No Free Lunch* by Dembski. Read Meyer's *Signature in the Cell*. Come back with your objections only after you have carefully read these works. You won't be taken seriously here until your comments show familiarity with them.Timaeus
January 8, 2013
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